Fight Night: Rifleman vs JagerMech

[FedComGirl]

So it seems that you want RFL-3N with "freezers"?

That would be the most obvious upgrade, wouldn't it? And whether I want it or not isn't the point. I'm just surprised the SLDF didn't do it in the first place.

So I've gathered, yes. That point is simply that BattleTech is already a game of chance and that any amount of playing skill can only try to manage the randomness as best possible, but not eliminate or control it. As such, there's only so much point in trying to "play it safe" (which on a battlefield of all places is kind of an inherently silly notion to begin with).

Well, that I can agree with.

Would've, could've, should've doesn't win games (or battles, for that matter). If I'm handed a stock Rifleman to go into a scenario with, you'd better believe that that second LL will see use in conjunction with the first -- and that if I judge the time right I'll fully opt for an all-out alpha strike and damn the shutdown roll, too. There may well be players out there so risk-averse that they decry things like MASC or ultra autocannons as useless right from the word go because they're too afraid of rolling a 2 at the wrong moment...but I don't particularly count myself among them, and gambling on the heat scale if I think it might just pay off is just another part of that.

I would do the same thing but that isn't the point. The Rifleman can only do that so much before it does shut down, is immovable even if it isn't shut down, or blows up. The Jagermech doesn't have that problem.

In your opinion. Other people's mileage may vary.

What do you consider riding the heat curve?

I'm certainly not blind to the Rifleman's flaws (frankly, even with no other post-intro tech available I think it'd be a great candidate for a TSM refit just so the heat it's going to build up anyway can do some good, too), but I'm not going to let them in turn blind me to what few strengths the design actually does have, either.

TSM would be a good refit for it. And I wouldn't either. Even with its problems it's still one of my favorites and one of my top two favorites for AA work.

[StCptMara]

What do you consider riding the heat curve?

Depends on how DWD I am feeling:
Launchpad: 9 Heat is where I would try to start cooling down
A little Dangerous: 14, I would begin switching to cool down mode
"Let's Get Dangerous": "Am I rolling to avoid Blowing Up? No...FIRE! Yes? Do I have Ammo left? No..FIRE! I'm still online!"

[A. Lurker]

Depends on how DWD I am feeling:
Launchpad: 9 Heat is where I would try to start cooling down
A little Dangerous: 14, I would begin switching to cool down mode
"Let's Get Dangerous": "Am I rolling to avoid Blowing Up? No...FIRE! Yes? Do I have Ammo left? No..FIRE! I'm still online!"

Pretty much echoes my sentiments. Heat in the single digits? Peanuts. The first real threshold is that first shutdown roll at 14...and I know that if I do go there I'll still pass that one eleven times in twelve, so it's more a useful reminder that I'm starting to push my luck now than anything else.

And if it's ever "one last broadside before I die anyway", then heat worries quite naturally fly out of the window altogether. Though in the context of this thread that's at best an edge case; the JagerMech would have a hard time actually making things that desperate for the Rifleman.

[StCptMara]

And if it's ever "one last broadside before I die anyway", then heat worries quite naturally fly out of the window altogether. Though in the context of this thread that's at best an edge case; the JagerMech would have a hard time actually making things that desperate for the Rifleman.

Which reminds me that I really do need to, in my groups games this month, need to give someone a JagerMech, and take it on with a Rifleman, and stick to the one arm bid...

[FedComGirl]

Depends on how DWD I am feeling:
Launchpad: 9 Heat is where I would try to start cooling down
A little Dangerous: 14, I would begin switching to cool down mode
"Let's Get Dangerous": "Am I rolling to avoid Blowing Up? No...FIRE! Yes? Do I have Ammo left? No..FIRE! I'm still online!"

Pretty much echoes my sentiments. Heat in the single digits? Peanuts. The first real threshold is that first shutdown roll at 14...and I know that if I do go there I'll still pass that one eleven times in twelve, so it's more a useful reminder that I'm starting to push my luck now than anything else.

And if it's ever "one last broadside before I die anyway", then heat worries quite naturally fly out of the window altogether. Though in the context of this thread that's at best an edge case; the JagerMech would have a hard time actually making things that desperate for the Rifleman.

Hm...interesting. To me if you've gotten to the point of rolling to avoid shut downs you're in big trouble. Since I don't like being in trouble I try to avoid that. Didn't always work though.  :(

[Death by Zeus]

 ;D That heat tiger lurking on that big boulder just waitin' for the right time to pounce eh, FedComGirl? Unfortunately, too many times I'm climbin' that boulder yellin' "here kitty, kitty"  :D

[Kovax]

The RFL can use a LL and both ACs at range, and only build heat for movement.  That's 18 damage, and 0-2 heat, with an occasional turn of cooldown by ducking behind cover.  If a "golden opportunity" presents itself, it can unleash 26 points of hurt, and then deal with the temperature later, hopefully by using terrain to break LOS.

The JM can use all four ACs to deliver 14 points at the same or longer range, and run cold.  If it gets a perfect ranged shot, that's still only 14 damage.  Thanks to its flappable arms and longer ranged AC/2s, it could theoretically run away until it uses up its AC/2 ammo on long-range shots (not that it would do much damage at those range+movement odds).

The RFL can take quite a few of those 2 and 5 point hits from the JM, while the JM will be hard pressed to deal with the 5 and 8 point hits coming back at it.  Oddly, the JM may have better survivability on a typical battlefield, because the potential for delivering damage compared to armor is actually higher for the RFL, making it a priority target to remove that firepower from the field as quickly as possible.  The JM's lower damage output means it's less of a threat, even though it's easier to remove, so it may not get shot at if there are better targets.  In a 1:1 situation, that won't save it.

[Akira213]

...The JM's lower damage output means it's less of a threat, even though it's easier to remove, so it may not get shot at if there are better targets...

It's not about the threat, it's more about taking a initiative unit off the board. Easy kill. I think that's the reason why a JagerMech is probably often a target with even higher priority than a Rifleman.

[Kit deSummersville]

The Jagermech doesn't have that problem.

It won't have a lot of problems after a few hits by large lasers.

[FedComGirl]

;D That heat tiger lurking on that big boulder just waitin' for the right time to pounce eh, FedComGirl? Unfortunately, too many times I'm climbin' that boulder yellin' "here kitty, kitty"  :D

lol   Actually the Tiger tends to bat me around a while then drops the big boulder on top of me when it gets bored.

The RFL can use a LL and both ACs at range, and only build heat for movement.  That's 18 damage, and 0-2 heat, with an occasional turn of cooldown by ducking behind cover.  If a "golden opportunity" presents itself, it can unleash 26 points of hurt, and then deal with the temperature later, hopefully by using terrain to break LOS.

The JM can use all four ACs to deliver 14 points at the same or longer range, and run cold.  If it gets a perfect ranged shot, that's still only 14 damage.  Thanks to its flappable arms and longer ranged AC/2s, it could theoretically run away until it uses up its AC/2 ammo on long-range shots (not that it would do much damage at those range+movement odds).

The RFL can take quite a few of those 2 and 5 point hits from the JM, while the JM will be hard pressed to deal with the 5 and 8 point hits coming back at it.  Oddly, the JM may have better survivability on a typical battlefield, because the potential for delivering damage compared to armor is actually higher for the RFL, making it a priority target to remove that firepower from the field as quickly as possible.  The JM's lower damage output means it's less of a threat, even though it's easier to remove, so it may not get shot at if there are better targets.  In a 1:1 situation, that won't save it.

That presumes the Rifleman gets within range to use the LLs or LOS range rules are in effect. Otherwise the Rifleman is only doing 10 damage compared to the Jagermech's 14.

It won't have a lot of problems after a few hits by large lasers.

True but the Rifleman has to get in range to use them.

[Kit deSummersville]

True but the Rifleman has to get in range to use them.

Given the set-up and the relative speed, it shouldn't be that hard.

[Klingon]

That presumes the Rifleman gets within range to use the LLs or LOS range rules are in effect. Otherwise the Rifleman is only doing 10 damage compared to the Jagermech's 14.

COnsidering he already has to be within 18 hexes to do 14 instead of 4, and the large lasers go out to 15, only with a lane to back up in can the Jager get a maximum of two turns of that exchange (the jager will back up for 4, the RFL will run for 6, making the range 16 on turn 2, then 14 (and in LL range) on turn 3 of this exchange), otherwise it's only a single turn, at most (LOS might be blocked, meaning the jager never gets that exchange). That's a pretty thin opportunity to balance against the thicker armor and ammo-less large lasers on the RFL.

[FedComGirl]

Given the set-up and the relative speed, it shouldn't be that hard.

Set up? Yes that makes things more difficult for the Jagermech. Speed? They both have the same speed until the Rifleman overheats.

COnsidering he already has to be within 18 hexes to do 14 instead of 4, and the large lasers go out to 15, only with a lane to back up in can the Jager get a maximum of two turns of that exchange (the jager will back up for 4, the RFL will run for 6, making the range 16 on turn 2, then 14 (and in LL range) on turn 3 of this exchange), otherwise it's only a single turn, at most (LOS might be blocked, meaning the jager never gets that exchange). That's a pretty thin opportunity to balance against the thicker armor and ammo-less large lasers on the RFL.

The Jagermech can flip its arms and run so it has 6 MP. The Rifleman has 6 MP only as long as its heat remains under control. LOS effects both units and can the Rifleman afford to take any damage before it can get into range to use it's large lasers? If the Jagermech gets lucky the Rifleman's taken up 28 points of damage. More if rapid-fire rules re in effect and if the Jagermech scores any critical hits.  When it does use its large lasers, will the Rifleman be able to keep up with the Jagermech?

Like I said, I think it could go either depending on the skills of the pilots and luck.

[StCptMara]

Something to remember is that this was stated as a 2 map-board, no rolling Maps duel. What this means is that the Rifleman, if it wants to close, will. The JagerMech is restrained in where it can go by the edge of the board.  The Rifleman is just restricted by any intervening terrain between it and the JagerMech.

[Kit deSummersville]

Set up? Yes that makes things more difficult for the Jagermech. Speed? They both have the same speed until the Rifleman overheats.

The Jagermech can flip its arms and run so it has 6 MP. The Rifleman has 6 MP only as long as its heat remains under control.

The Jager is going to die really quick if you're exposing the back armor to the Rifleman for multiple turns.

[Stinger]

If I remember, I will try and run a half dozen MegaMek games with 2 princess AIs fighting each other.  Tactics won't be good, but they will be equal.  Also, my big bad desktop should be able to knock the games out pretty quickly. 

Any recommendations of the 2 maps to use end to end?

[Klingon]

The Jagermech can flip its arms and run so it has 6 MP. The Rifleman has 6 MP only as long as its heat remains under control. LOS effects both units and can the Rifleman afford to take any damage before it can get into range to use it's large lasers? If the Jagermech gets lucky the Rifleman's taken up 28 points of damage. More if rapid-fire rules re in effect and if the Jagermech scores any critical hits.  When it does use its large lasers, will the Rifleman be able to keep up with the Jagermech?

Like I said, I think it could go either depending on the skills of the pilots and luck.

And like I said, coming out either way is *possible*, but the scenario (especially as given) is heavily weighted towards the Rifleman. If we're presuming that kind of luck, no reason to presume only the Jager is lucky, and the RFL will come out ahead on that. If you do turn and run, both mechs are running at long range; you're looking at 12s to hit (4 gun, +2 (5-6 hex Target Movement Mod), +2 (run attacker movement mod), +4 for long range), and that only gets marginally better with better gunners. You'll be lucky to score any hits either way.

Yeah, it's possible for the Jager to win (can always get lucky and group, or TAC), but the Rifleman has a seriously significant edge here. I'd give the RFL 8 or 9 out of 10.

[YingJanshi]

If I remember, I will try and run a half dozen MegaMek games with 2 princess AIs fighting each other.  Tactics won't be good, but they will be equal.  Also, my big bad desktop should be able to knock the games out pretty quickly. 

Any recommendations of the 2 maps to use end to end?

The original setup was two BattleTech maps long-side to long-side.

[A. Lurker]

The original setup was two BattleTech maps long-side to long-side.

Okay, just for fun I've run through a quick series of bot vs. bot games, two instances of Princess, one with a RFL-3N, one with a JM6-S. Playing field were two copies of the classic "BattleTech" map with their long sides connecting; to try to ensure that the home edge wouldn't have any influence I might overlook I swapped deployment sides (east and west vs. west and east) halfway through.

Net result: 6 wins for the JagerMech, 4 for the Rifleman. Interestingly, kicks (and the occasional voluntary ejection upon being immobilized) seemed to play at least as much of a part in deciding these engagements as the 'Mechs' weapons -- the Princess bot that was playing both sides likes to get close and physical, and so the fights inevitably degenerated into aggressive point-blank brawls that human players might have been more inclined to avoid.

I may run a second series with the older TestBot later...and maybe another with Princess as well, just to see if I get similar results again.

[Kovax]

It seems like the 'bot will fire everything that can reach, even at poor odds, then fire nothing the following turn while it cools down, parked out in the open and easy to hit.  The JM isn't hampered as badly by the bad AI behavior because of its low weapons heat, but the RFL is probably getting the short end of the stick.

I'd be willing to bet that the RFL would do better with one of its LLs REMOVED (What was that the earlier poster said about taking on the JM with one arm tied behind his back?), because the AI will insist on using BOTH any time it's not already overheated.

[StCptMara]

I'd be willing to bet that the RFL would do better with one of its LLs REMOVED (What was that the earlier poster said about taking on the JM with one arm tied behind his back?), because the AI will insist on using BOTH any time it's not already overheated.

No...I have said I would take the JagerMech with only one arm. I would forsake the Medium Lasers, and those dishonorable
physical attacks. I was bidding away weapons.

[Netzilla]

It seems like the 'bot will fire everything that can reach, even at poor odds, then fire nothing the following turn while it cools down, parked out in the open and easy to hit.  The JM isn't hampered as badly by the bad AI behavior because of its low weapons heat, but the RFL is probably getting the short end of the stick.

Nah, Princess isn't quite that bad.  She's fairly conservative on heat, not letting herself go above 5 or 6 most of the time.  I've never seen her drive herself past 9 heat without engine damage.  Specifically, with RFLs, I've seen her fire both ACs & LLs to hit +8 heat and then spend the remainder of the time firing both ACs and 1 LL (occasionally swapping for MLs in close) and staying around 8 total heat.  Most other mechs, I see her sit around 4-6 heat for most of the battle.

She is bad about not making use of cover and charging into point blank range, however.  That's being worked on.

[House Davie Merc]

I've played this out a batch of times on the standard maps .

Princess DEFINATELY tries to get in there for physical attacks over
taking advantage of it's ranged weapons in the Jagermech .

When I played as the Rifleman the few times that the Jag won it was
from an unavoidable  string of weirdness .
( like head hits ,  CTcritical , or everything hitting on 10+ rolls all
to the same hit location . NEVER let Princess get a level  above you or you
WILL get kicked in the head )

Most of the wins using  the Rifleman involved the Jag loosing half of it's
ranged weapons from arm hits , soon followed by an ammo crit exploding on that side .

There are extra arm hit locations on the hit location table and once an arm is gone
the chances of piercing the side torso to score a crit is pretty high .

I was surprised at how often I used the medium lasers with the Rifleman because
of the combination of over heating and the Princess constantly trying to charge in for kicks .


As the Jagermech I just couldn't keep the range advantage on 2 maps .
Again Princess wanted to get in there and kick even in the Rifleman .

I didn't get any golden BBs or strings of luck with the Jag like Princess did
and as soon as I was in range of her large lasers I was loosing arm weapons .

I found playing the Jag against Princess in the Rifleman to be WAY more
difficult then playing the Rifleman against the Jag .
The Jag just consistantly lost arm weapons quickly because of the thin armor
combined with the higher chance of hitting an arm on the hit location table .

Then most of the time BOOM- side torso ammo explosion ends the duel .

[FedComGirl]

The Jager is going to die really quick if you're exposing the back armor to the Rifleman for multiple turns.

Only after the Rifleman gets in range.

And like I said, coming out either way is *possible*, but the scenario (especially as given) is heavily weighted towards the Rifleman. If we're presuming that kind of luck, no reason to presume only the Jager is lucky, and the RFL will come out ahead on that. If you do turn and run, both mechs are running at long range; you're looking at 12s to hit (4 gun, +2 (5-6 hex Target Movement Mod), +2 (run attacker movement mod), +4 for long range), and that only gets marginally better with better gunners. You'll be lucky to score any hits either way.

Yeah, it's possible for the Jager to win (can always get lucky and group, or TAC), but the Rifleman has a seriously significant edge here. I'd give the RFL 8 or 9 out of 10.

I never said the odds weren't in the Rifleman's favor. But the Rifleman winning isn't automatic  either.

snip

Wowey! 6 win to 4 loses for the Jagermech? Cool!

snip

How many times did which unit win?

[House Davie Merc]

How many times did which unit win?

I didn't keep track of the exact games as I just wanted to try it out for fun so this is a rough guess .

I would say that I played the Rifleman with Princess as the Jag for about 12 games .

Rifleman won 8 of the 12 .
Of the 4 Victories for the Jag 2 were from the Jag getting a level above
me after winning initiative and kicking the Rifleman in the head .
One was from a single head hit with the AC/2 nocking out my pilot
and he just would NOT wake up .
The forth was the old CT crit -3 hit locations -gyro, gyro , engine .

I played the Jag against Princess I would say 8 times .

I won twice as the Jag . Both times I just got luckier
with kicks and was in really bad shape .
( Once I won initiative when she was overheated and up close so I got into
the side arc to kick a specific leg  )
Princess tagged me in the arms with a large laser the first round I was in range
and kept taking out my AC/5s .

I managed to use the range advantage a few times but at most only for 2
rounds  and just didn't do enough damage .
Once the Rifleman closed within my minimum ranges to get physical
my ACs were useless  while she hammered me with the large lasers .

I noticed that Princess didn't seem to use the Riflemans medium lasers nearly
as much as I did .

Overall whomever piloted the Rifleman - it won 14 out of the 20 games .
Usually in good condition to . While when the Jag won there was barely anything left
of it and a string of lucky hits caused most of it's wins .

[A. Lurker]

Wowey! 6 win to 4 loses for the Jagermech? Cool!

Well, as I said, that's partly that bot's predilection for just charging into physical attack range (and the side or rear arc when possible -- it's not entirely dumb about it, for all that it doesn't know anything about using melee weapons or even just punching twice when it can yet) when it has an excuse. Let the bot run both sides and the predictable happens. And since either 'Mech can go internal on the other's legs and potentially take out one or more actuators with the first kick, a lot comes down to luck.

Conversely, TestBot vs. TestBot was a snoozefest. I tried three or four times and the 'Mechs would basically not even budge from their starting positions to engage each other at all. I haven't actually played against this bot much anymore since Princess came out, but it matches what I recall of often being able to pick its units apart at range while they would never close enough to actually shoot back.

I might run one bot vs. the other sometime, but either way it's not really representative of how the games would likely play out between human opponents -- or even if there was a human on only one side as in House Davie Merc's examples.

[Kit deSummersville]

Only after the Rifleman gets in range.

Oh my, two AC/2s at +8, horrifying.

[Kovax]

Oh my, two AC/2s at +8, horrifying.

Don't worry, it's not quite as frightening as it sounds.  That's 8+ for the range, and another +1 or +2 for each 'Mech's movement, for a final 10+ to 12+ to-hit, usually 11+ or 12+.  I think the Rifleman might just be able to survive 45 shots of that, typically 2-4 two-point hits, before the JM runs out of AC/2 ammo.

[Klingon]

The Jagermech isn't as horrifying as it sounds. Just sayin.  :P

[FedComGirl]

I didn't keep track of the exact games as I just wanted to try it out for fun so this is a rough guess .

I would say that I played the Rifleman with Princess as the Jag for about 12 games .

Rifleman won 8 of the 12 .
Of the 4 Victories for the Jag 2 were from the Jag getting a level above
me after winning initiative and kicking the Rifleman in the head .
One was from a single head hit with the AC/2 nocking out my pilot
and he just would NOT wake up .
The forth was the old CT crit -3 hit locations -gyro, gyro , engine .

I played the Jag against Princess I would say 8 times .

I won twice as the Jag . Both times I just got luckier
with kicks and was in really bad shape .
( Once I won initiative when she was overheated and up close so I got into
the side arc to kick a specific leg  )
Princess tagged me in the arms with a large laser the first round I was in range
and kept taking out my AC/5s .

I managed to use the range advantage a few times but at most only for 2
rounds  and just didn't do enough damage .
Once the Rifleman closed within my minimum ranges to get physical
my ACs were useless  while she hammered me with the large lasers .

I noticed that Princess didn't seem to use the Riflemans medium lasers nearly
as much as I did .

Overall whomever piloted the Rifleman - it won 14 out of the 20 games .
Usually in good condition to . While when the Jag won there was barely anything left
of it and a string of lucky hits caused most of it's wins .

Wowey! It sounds like the Jagermech was luckier. And had better salvage after.  :)

Well, as I said, that's partly that bot's predilection for just charging into physical attack range (and the side or rear arc when possible -- it's not entirely dumb about it, for all that it doesn't know anything about using melee weapons or even just punching twice when it can yet) when it has an excuse. Let the bot run both sides and the predictable happens. And since either 'Mech can go internal on the other's legs and potentially take out one or more actuators with the first kick, a lot comes down to luck.

Conversely, TestBot vs. TestBot was a snoozefest. I tried three or four times and the 'Mechs would basically not even budge from their starting positions to engage each other at all. I haven't actually played against this bot much anymore since Princess came out, but it matches what I recall of often being able to pick its units apart at range while they would never close enough to actually shoot back.

I might run one bot vs. the other sometime, but either way it's not really representative of how the games would likely play out between human opponents -- or even if there was a human on only one side as in House Davie Merc's examples.

So it really comes own to the pilots and luck.

Oh my, two AC/2s at +8, horrifying.

One was from a single head hit with the AC/2 nocking out my pilot
and he just would NOT wake up .

It only took one.