1st SW Fleets

[epic 2.0]

For a bit of a project I am working on, I was wondering if anybody has ever compiled an approximation of the fleets used in the 1st Succession War.  While yes, we have the info of the ships in the Field Report 2765 series, it doesn't give the info for the ships that become available with the large scale mobilization for the War. 

I have my own projections/estimations, was wondering if anyone has something that I could compare to.

[epic 2.0]

to clarify, I am looking for types of hulls/ships in a breakdown of the TO&E - warships in particular. 

[mikecj]

There is a series of books called "Field Report 2765 ..." (LCAF, AFFS, DCMS, FWLM, & CCAF).  That has the best info on the fleets and tactical organization.

They don't list out every ship but its pretty good.

[Liam's Ghost]

Keep in mind that FR 2765 doesn't take into account the buildup each state underwent between 2765 and the start of the First Succession War (2786). The Lyrans, for example, went from having around ten Tharkad class Battlecruisers in 2765 to twenty eight by the time production was ended via explosion.

There are a few things we do know, off the top of my head:

The LCN was planning on focusing production on the Tharkad, Commonwealth (block II), and Mako classes in the run up to the war. During the war they also employed the Vincent class, which might have been survivors of the five ships they already had or new construction. They also inherited a Potemkin at some point.

The Capellan Navy had swiped the plans for the Vincent and Essex I during the Amaris Coup and was mass manufacturing them to quickly bulk up their numbers.

The Draconis Combine was apparently building additional Samarkand IIs and new Narukami IIs to fill out their fleet.

The Federated Suns was reactivating mothballed ships in the run up to the war. I don't know if we have any info on new construction.

I don't think there's any info on how the Free Worlds League fleet expanded.

Apparently everybody had access to the star league era version of the Carrack (a ship for which we still have no stats) in sufficient quantity to field them as naval auxiliaries and convert some to carriers.

And by the time the war began, the Taurians had a single Concordat class frigate to their name.

[epic 2.0]

Keep in mind that FR 2765 doesn't take into account the buildup each state underwent between 2765 and the start of the First Succession War (2786). The Lyrans, for example, went from having around ten Tharkad class Battlecruisers in 2765 to twenty eight by the time production was ended via explosion.

There are a few things we do know, off the top of my head:

The LCN was planning on focusing production on the Tharkad, Commonwealth (block II), and Mako classes in the run up to the war. During the war they also employed the Vincent class, which might have been survivors of the five ships they already had or new construction. They also inherited a Potemkin at some point.

The Capellan Navy had swiped the plans for the Vincent and Essex I during the Amaris Coup and was mass manufacturing them to quickly bulk up their numbers.

The Draconis Combine was apparently building additional Samarkand IIs and new Narukami IIs to fill out their fleet.

The Federated Suns was reactivating mothballed ships in the run up to the war. I don't know if we have any info on new construction.

I don't think there's any info on how the Free Worlds League fleet expanded.

Apparently everybody had access to the star league era version of the Carrack (a ship for which we still have no stats) in sufficient quantity to field them as naval auxiliaries and convert some to carriers.

And by the time the war began, the Taurians had a single Concordat class frigate to their name.

Thx, yup, all that info I already have mostly from the FR 2765 books.  I've also added in some cobbled info from the 1st and 2nd Succession War books. 
Other info I found was that all the Successor States had access to the Aegis block I ships, with 30-36 given to the various Council Lords.
The Baron Class destroyer was also given to most of the states at some point, and most had a few. 

Got the Potemkin for the LCN - I underestimated Tharkad BC production though.  Hmmm... that makes for a heavy fleet. 

[epic 2.0]

There is a series of books called "Field Report 2765 ..." (LCAF, AFFS, DCMS, FWLM, & CCAF).  That has the best info on the fleets and tactical organization.

They don't list out every ship but its pretty good.

Yeah, I have used that as the basis but then was curious how the naval expansion program went.  As was stated, looks like a lot of old mothballed ships that were corvettes and some destroyers. 

[epic 2.0]

To give an idea, here's my list of what the DCA warship fleet looked like on the eve of the 1SW, my own approximation of hulls:


New Samarkand-class Carrier I (2) 
Samarkand II (47).
Essex I (5)
Aegis (6)
Baron ( 16 ),
Bonaventure (5)
Vigilant (3)
Monsoon (1)
Narukami I (10)
 Narukami II (68)
Vincent (4)
Cruiser (3)
 Lola I ( 8 )
Black Lion I (1)
Carson (1)
Carrack (6)
early SLDF Congress (2)
Sovetski Soyuz (1)
Naga (1)
Newgrange (9)

this includes the 2 Vigilant Class apparently permanently attached to the Proserpina Hussars
total 199/199

[epic 2.0]

feedback or thoughts?  I have the other Successor States navies built as well.  Mostly using info from the 1SW and 2SW sourcebooks, looking if ship hull types and names are mentioned in battles.  Also TR 3075 and other mentions including old 2750 TR as well, which made some mentions of designs that were handed off to the Successor States. 

I'm unhappy with the amount of Samarkand ships to escort vessels like the Narukami.  Feel it's too much carriers, but even the 2765 write up indicates that the flagships are there in about equal amount to the Narukami, and the rest are escort vessels that were old sldf/terran hegemony vessels. 

Perhaps it would be best to have more Narukami and less Samarkand?  esp if keeping with 5 ship squadrons.  it'd be too carrier heavy, but maybe that was a problem?

[RifleMech]

It looks good to me. I'd like to see the other Houses ship numbers, along with Comstar and any surviving Hegemony ships.

[epic 2.0]

LCN:
Potemkin-class Troop Cruiser (1),
 Mako-class Corvettes (80)
 Tharkad-class Battlecruisers (28).
Essex I (4)
Sylvester (4)
Vigilant (6)
Vincent (5)
Baron (7)
Lola I (6)
Black Lion I (1) 
Bonaventure (5)
 Carson (1)
 Carrack (6)
Aegis I (6)
 Monsoon (1)
Commonwealth II (45)
Riga (1)
Newgrange (9)
Sovetskii Soyuz (1)

The amount of Tharkad Battlecruisers seems high, but is based on tr 3057.  Leads to a powerful flagship for each squadron.  My concern is too many Makos.  The LC was selling Makos to both Amaris and the Terran Hegemony, and "over 100" were produced up to 2787.  So... most were not sold, based on my numbers, but that doesn't seem likely.  There were 27 "in active service" as of 2765, with 22 years more of production.  Assuming 1 per year construction, would only generously bring them up to 50ish.  The other 30 being mothballed and then reactivated?  or perhaps more Commonwealth light cruisers?  The problem with that being that the bulk of the Commonwealth II only started being constructed in the run-up to 2765.   Assuming a few block I were still in mothballs to be refitted (in fact, the first 3 were), and then assuming production of 1/year, there should realistically only be maximum 40ish of them.  So... a bit stuck on this.  Perhaps some more TH hand-me-downs instead that were in mothballs, such as Essex I or Vincent?  and less Commonwealth?
total 217/217

[Jellico]

Efforts were made to make sure none of the Houses ended up with SLDF battleships. The Farragut slipped through in a German novel of suspect canonicity.

Technically I have the list going into 2786, but authors are notorious for adding their own favourites after the event for narrative juiciness. Which is a fancy way of saying things changed.

From what I have only the Cappies are running Carsons and Black Lion Is.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Out of curiosity where is the line about the 28 Tharkad classes from?

I think the Mako number is sufficient enough.

[Liam's Ghost]

Out of curiosity where is the line about the 28 Tharkad classes from?

I think the Mako number is sufficient enough.

TRO 3075.

[RifleMech]

LCN:
Potemkin-class Troop Cruiser (1),
 Mako-class Corvettes (80)
 Tharkad-class Battlecruisers (28).
Essex I (4)
Sylvester (4)
Vigilant (6)
Vincent (5)
Baron (2)
Lola I (6)
Black Lion I (1) 
Bonaventure (5)
 Carson (1)
 Carrack (6)
Aegis I (6)
 Monsoon (1)
Commonwealth II (61)

The amount of Tharkad Battlecruisers seems high, but is based on tr 3057.  Leads to a powerful flagship for each squadron.  My concern is too many Makos.  The LC was selling Makos to both Amaris and the Terran Hegemony, and "over 100" were produced up to 2787.  So... most were not sold, based on my numbers, but that doesn't seem likely.  There were 27 "in active service" as of 2765, with 22 years more of production.  Assuming 1 per year construction, would only generously bring them up to 50ish.  The other 30 being mothballed and then reactivated?  or perhaps more Commonwealth light cruisers?  The problem with that being that the bulk of the Commonwealth II only started being constructed in the run-up to 2765.   Assuming a few block I were still in mothballs to be refitted (in fact, the first 3 were), and then assuming production of 1/year, there should realistically only be maximum 40ish of them.  So... a bit stuck on this.  Perhaps some more TH hand-me-downs instead that were in mothballs, such as Essex I or Vincent?  and less Commonwealth?
total 217/217

If the Makos weren't sold, how'd then end up on both sides of the civil war?  ???   The Lyrans had 27 Makos in 2765. At a rate of 1 a year, from 2692 that mean that 46 that were sold. Another 22 were built by 2787. If the Lyrans kept those then they'd have around 49 or more depending on how many over 100 Makos were built in total.  Maybe more TH designs?

As for the Commonwealth II. At 1 a year there's only enough time to build 22 of them by 2787. More could be built until the production yards are destroyed but 61 built seems high. Maybe Commonwealth Is were pulled out of mothballs?

[epic 2.0]

Efforts were made to make sure none of the Houses ended up with SLDF battleships. The Farragut slipped through in a German novel of suspect canonicity.

Technically I have the list going into 2786, but authors are notorious for adding their own favourites after the event for narrative juiciness. Which is a fancy way of saying things changed.

From what I have only the Cappies are running Carsons and Black Lion Is.

WANT YOUR LIST!  though I know you can't share most likely... pretty please? 
your point about the Farragut is good in regards to questionable canonicity; though I dispute that it was an SLDF battleship.  The original Farragut was a TH ship class, that was then gifted to the SLDF.  What to replace it with then?

I took the quote from FR 2765 Capellan Confed that the Black Lion were sold to ALL the great houses, and while some were stripped and/or didn't survive the Reunification War, that a few made it thru for all the Houses. 

The Carsons... much the same.  I mean, sure, the CC had some active we know about, and the Rim Worlds had 18! during the Amaris War, so I was being generous by giving the other Houses the same. 

Really, the only way construction could be what it was if lots of ships were pulled out of mothballs.  I definitely see your point that only the Cappies had them actually named though, and thus, could reduce them.

[epic 2.0]

If the Makos weren't sold, how'd then end up on both sides of the civil war?  ???   The Lyrans had 27 Makos in 2765. At a rate of 1 a year, from 2692 that mean that 46 that were sold. Another 22 were built by 2787. If the Lyrans kept those then they'd have around 49 or more depending on how many over 100 Makos were built in total.  Maybe more TH designs?

As for the Commonwealth II. At 1 a year there's only enough time to build 22 of them by 2787. More could be built until the production yards are destroyed but 61 built seems high. Maybe Commonwealth Is were pulled out of mothballs?

Yeah, the Elsies were the ones I had the most difficulty with.  Its' why I wanted feedback. 

The Mako number could be higher, for all we know; as you say, it depends how many "over 100" were produced, and how many were sold.  With 20+ sold, it's sufficient to have "fought on both sides of the Civil War".

[epic 2.0]

Next up: the Fed Suns!
Congress D-class Frigate (9),
Robinson (57)
 Davion II (50)
 Davion I  (3)
Aegis I (6)
New Syrtis ( 8 )
Vigilant (3)
Vincent (5)
baron (10)
Black Lion I (2)
Cruiser (2)
Bonaventure (5)
Carson (1)
Lola I ( 2)
Carrack (6)
Monsoon (1)
 Defender (2)
Pinto (1)
 Riga (1)
Naga (1)
Newgrange (8)
Sovetskii Soyuz (1)

total 184/184

I'm mostly happy with the Fed Suns, though obviously open to feedback.  My biggest issue was the Black Lion I- esp in light to comments now above from Jellico.  For a long time, the persistent rumour was that the Golden Lion and the Black Bear were Black Lion class, but they werent' as per 1SW (or at least, we know for sure the Golden Lion was, but considering the Black Bear was the sister ship, I expect the same class).  I wanted to give more Defenders and remove the Black Lions, but it's pretty explicitly stated only "2 Defenders were active at the end of the Star League era".  I suppose there could have been some pulled out of mothballs out of the total of 6 production run, but some didn't make it thru the Reunification War either I expect.

[Ruger]

Kitty Hawk-class?

Ruger

[epic 2.0]

Kitty Hawk-class?

Ruger

Only found in german novels, and therefore canonically... not certain. 
More likely just New Syrtis class. 

[Hellraiser]

Robinson (65)
Davion II (57)

Congress D-class Frigate (9)
Aegis I (6)
New Syrtis (6)
Carrack (6)
Vincent (5)
baron (5)
Bonaventure (5)

Davion I  (3)
Vigilant (3)
Black Lion I (2)
Cruiser (2)
Lola I ( 2)
Kitty Hawk (2)
Defender (2)
Carson (1)
Monsoon (1)
Pinto (1)
Riga (1)

total 184/184

Curious,  how much of this is cannon v/s theory?

The overall balance of #s is odd when you think about what a navy maybe should look like.

[epic 2.0]

Curious,  how much of this is cannon v/s theory?

The overall balance of #s is odd when you think about what a navy maybe should look like.

Mostly canon, some theory.  Also the occasional german novel semi-canon reference thrown in. 

My thought process went like this: first, taking the fleets as they were in 2765.  Finding every reference in 1sw, 2sw and TR 3075 and 3057 of named ships and classes I could.

Then, building out as much as I could on numbers by taking the rough numbers of 2765 squadrons and going out from there.  So if there were 5 squadrons of:
 "1 battlecruiser, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 4 corvettes, 1 squadron of cargo dships (5) and 1 combat dship" (semi-quoting from one 2765 field report) and the same power had 5 small squadrons of 1 battlecruiser and 2 corvettes, then extrapolating on that to try and keep similar ratios of ships amongst.

However, I also wanted to make sure to limit a lot of the big ships as much as possible.  I was surprised by the amount of Tharkad and Atreus class ships, for instance; it seemed like there were size limitations on how big the 5 Successor states could build, prior to and during the Star League era, and there was no chance to really build bigger than those... ever.  That meant that I still had to fill in some gaps with some smaller ships, and then there are also lots of references to TH and SLDF hand-me-down ships.  So... as much as it would have been cool to have had 1 battlecruiser for every 4 smaller warships, there were limits.  The Lyrans and FWL get the closest to full battlecruiser squadrons.   Meanwhile, the Dracs get the closest to a full carrier navy. 

I haven't posted the others yet... see now below.
 

[epic 2.0]

Now, the Capellans, finally!

Du Shi Wang-class Battleship (11)
 Essex I (34)
 Soyal (10)
Aegis I (6)
Vincent (41)
Mako (5)
 Black Lion I (2)
 Baron (11)
Carson (2)
Naga (1)
Cameron (1)
Newgrange (8)
Lola I (3)
Lola III (2)
Cruiser (2)
 Bonaventure (5)
 Carrack (6)
Congress (1)
Monsoon (1)
 Vigilant (5)

So first... the durn Farragut.  I had a reason for the Farragut to be in here, but durned if I remember it now.  It was partly a result again of them having been given to the various IS powers at some point.  Also to round out the Capellan navy which was missing heavier ships sometimes otherwise, and lacked focus.  It probably needs to go, but what to replace it with? 
total 157/157

[epic 2.0]

and lastly, the FWL!

Atreus-class Battleship (28)
 Soyal ( 8 )
 Aegis (6)
Monsoon (1)
League II (69)
 Vigilant (3)
 Black Lion I (1)
Cruiser (2)
Bonaventure (5)
 Carson (1)
 Lola I (2)
Lola III (1)
Carrack (6) and of these, 2 are mod'd as carriers)
New Samarkand (1)
 Cameron (1)
Baron (5)
Mako (5)
Newgrange (8)
Cameron (1)
the above includes:
Oriente Squadron 1 has 3 warships (2765)
 Oriente Squadron 2 has 2 destroyers
 Regulus Squadron 2 warships
My guess is that the 2nd Oriente Squadron are both League II ships, as system defense ships.  The 1st Squadron I could see being a cruiser of some type and some destroyers or corvettes as a patrol squadron. 
As for Regulus, I figure one of the above Soyals would be in their squadron for that wonderful Mass Driver and some Ortillery.  The other ship would be an escort of some type, probably a corvette or destroyer. 

in addition:
Duchy of Andurien has :Vincent (1)  Pinto (2) Baron (2)

Now... arguments could be made that Regulus, Oriente and Andurien ALSO expanded their fleets between 2765 and the start of the war.  As such, I have actually expanded the Andurien naval squadron based on mentions of Pintos in FWL space- in spite of political arguments at the time (mentioned in FR 2765 FWL) to limit the navy of Andurien.  I figured older obsolete ships like this would be at least somewhat acceptable.  The Baron class I justified as part of the preparations for the liberation of Andurien during the build up of the war.  I suspect that the Oriente and Regulan navies probably doubled in size, with the Captain-General's blessing, as it at least would increase the navy power overall.  That would still be part of the 157 ships in the navy though. 

Thoughts?  Would those 2 Pinto and 2 Baron be in the federal fleet instead?  Andurien definitely has a Vincent as of 2765 at least. 

total 159/159

[Ruger]

Now, the Capellans, finally!

Du Shi Wang-class Battleship (11)
 Farragut (1)
Essex I (46)
 Soyal (10)
Aegis I (6)
Vincent (53)
 Black Lion I (1)
 Baron (5)
Carson (2)
Lola I (3)
Cruiser (2)
 Bonaventure (5)
 Carrack (6)
Congress (1)
Monsoon (1)
 Vigilant (5)

So first... the durn Farragut.  I had a reason for the Farragut to be in here, but durned if I remember it now.  It was partly a result again of them having been given to the various IS powers at some point.  Also to round out the Capellan navy which was missing heavier ships sometimes otherwise, and lacked focus.  It probably needs to go, but what to replace it with? 
total 157/157

I’m pretty sure the fluff text for them states that all the Farragut-class battleships were scrapped, which is why seeing one show up with the WoB was such a surprise. The biggest ships I remember being purposefully given to the Successor States were the Aegis-class ships to the best of my recollection (those and some destroyers and maybe some corvettes, and kind of the Congress-D-class frigates to the FedSuns).

Ruger

[Hellraiser]

I’m pretty sure the fluff text for them states that all the Farragut-class battleships were scrapped, which is why seeing one show up with the WoB was such a surprise. The biggest ships I remember being purposefully given to the Successor States were the Aegis-class ships to the best of my recollection (those and some destroyers and maybe some corvettes, and kind of the Congress-D-class frigates to the FedSuns).

Ruger

I recall the same.

Aegis were "given" when the SLDF brought them out of retirement.
Older Destroyers & Corvettes were offered up for sale IIRC.
Suns had their own shipyard making Congress-D ships IIRC.

[Hellraiser]

Then, building out as much as I could on numbers by taking the rough numbers of 2765 squadrons and going out from there.  So if there were 5 squadrons of:
 "1 battlecruiser, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 4 corvettes, 1 squadron of cargo dships (5) and 1 combat dship" (semi-quoting from one 2765 field report) and the same power had 5 small squadrons of 1 battlecruiser and 2 corvettes, then extrapolating on that to try and keep similar ratios of ships amongst.

However, I also wanted to make sure to limit a lot of the big ships as much as possible.

I can see not giving them a bunch of Unknown Battleships or something but the Suns looks like they didn't go up in New Syrtis #s at all.  Which seems odd.
Congress-D seems like another potential growth area.

[Liam's Ghost]

The Baron is probably a good source for ships to come out of mothballs. The SLDF turned over more than half the production run to the great houses in 2582, which was after the majority of naval actions in the Reunification War ended, so most of those could be expected to have survived.

There's no indication of how many Barons were built, but it was intended to be the primary light destroyer of the HAF, until it proved lackluster, which suggests a large production run that may or may not have been interrupted.

Having anywhere from ten to twenty Barons available to each house for reactivation doesn't seem too far out of the question.

[epic 2.0]

The Baron is probably a good source for ships to come out of mothballs. The SLDF turned over more than half the production run to the great houses in 2582, which was after the majority of naval actions in the Reunification War ended, so most of those could be expected to have survived.

There's no indication of how many Barons were built, but it was intended to be the primary light destroyer of the HAF, until it proved lackluster, which suggests a large production run that may or may not have been interrupted.

Having anywhere from ten to twenty Barons available to each house for reactivation doesn't seem too far out of the question.

Excellent.  I like this, and will be modifying some of the counts shortly to accomodate those Barons.  I'll double the amount of Barons in service with everyone, other than the LCN and FWLN, which I'll simply add 5 to bring them to 7.  That gives the DCA 16, and most everyone else 10ish, with the LCN and FLWN only 7.  Also to pull the Farraguts and the Kitty Hawks. 

Modifications done from above.  Always interested in more feedback, of course.  My worry is that the 8 New Syrtis class for the Feds are a bit much... but then again, the Robinson is kinda a stinker of a warship, imho. 

[RifleMech]

Yeah, the Elsies were the ones I had the most difficulty with.  Its' why I wanted feedback. 

The Mako number could be higher, for all we know; as you say, it depends how many "over 100" were produced, and how many were sold.  With 20+ sold, it's sufficient to have "fought on both sides of the Civil War".

Yeah, the over 100 is kind of vague. I wouldn't put it at a big number though or it'd be worth mentioning. I don't think I'd go more than 1 Mako built every 10 months. That'd put the total at 114. At 1 per 9 months production hits 126.

[Daryk]

I'd go with 126, personally... existential threats are whole other kind of motivation to the shipyard workers!  ^-^