The Sphere HAS BA: Now It Needs Omnis

[Scotty]

It unfortunately goes overboard on the "cheap omni" concept and is subsequently slow and fragile.

If you want it to be fast and durable you're not getting it cheap.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

But you could still get something that is A) faster and B) more durable without turning it into an expensive mech.  Especially by the Dark Age.

[Natasha Kerensky]

I’d take a lowly, old, non-optimal Owens B over a Gún Prime — much faster and better armored — for BA deployment, and it’s actually 23 less BV2.

[Hellraiser]

Isn't it just the LCAF and the AFFS? Mercs tend to mirror mech organization while Marik uses 4x5 and Kurita uses 4x3.

I thought it was three nations, but let say I’m wrong and it’s two.  That means the FWLM and AFFS platoons are split up between transports when both the LCAF and DCMS (that have access to transports that have IT16) can keep them together as a functioning unit in the same transport.  Seems like a major advantage for those units doesn’t it?

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Inner_Sphere_Battle_Armor_Organization

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Inner_Sphere_Infantry_Organization

LC & FS mirror  =  4S*4P*4C*4B*4R = 64 Company

As do DC & Mercs  =  4S*3P*3C*3B*3R = 36 Company

C*, FWL, & CC, are all different

C* = 6*6*6*6*6 = 108 Company+ (216 Battalion - L3)

FWL = 4S*5P*4C*4B*4R = 80 Company

CC = 4S*4P*3C*3B*3R = 48 Company

This is assuming you follow the listed Platoon++ organizations in the FMs for Infantry since most FMs list only to Platoon level.

[martian]

It unfortunately goes overboard on the "cheap omni" concept and is subsequently slow and fragile.

The OP did not require a fast 'Mech. Gùn is sufficiently fast for its task: Supporting friendly infantry and BA.

Also, Gùn carries about as much armor as many other 20-tonners and with its standard engine is actually more durable than some other 20-tonners that often run XL engines.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

A 20 tonner with max armor is still a 20 tonner.  And that one moves at the same speed as many heavy mechs.  Not great for a BA hauler.

[Scotty]

It's significantly cheaper than a heavy by any metric in and out of universe, and it keeps pace with all but very few of them.  If it doesn't fit how you want an Omni to work that's entirely fine, but it's suitable for the purpose described.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm not saying that there should be heavies of similar price, I'm saying that it is slow for its weight category.  By the time it was released there were many other options that are also cheap but are faster and tougher than it.  And heck, if you're really looking to be wallet-conscious, why are you choosing a mech for the job instead of a VTOL?

[Colt Ward]

Other thing is . . . what are you moving the BA up to attack?  Transporting a BA squad closer only to have the mech doing the movement getting cored & hope you get the BA to survive is not a strategy.

Bluntly this is why in the Clans I prefer mediums or heavies for the slower BA and if I have to I place 3 or 4 jumping points on the lights.  The more mobile BA can close the gap- or pull your enemy forward into them.  For IS, VTOLs or hovers, speed or the ability to drop BA behind a hill to protect both BA & transport.

[martian]

A 20 tonner with max armor is still a 20 tonner.

Well ... yes?

Gùn carries enough armor for its weight class and it carries enough armor that lets it do its job: Support infantry and transport and support BA. Every single Gùn configuration is armed with at least one ranged weapon (Plasma Cannon - 15; Heavy PPC - 18; ER Large laser - 19), so it can support its BA desant from afar, while conserving its armor.

And that one moves at the same speed as many heavy mechs.  Not great for a BA hauler.

I said it once and I say it again: "High speed" is your own invention. The OP did not require a high speed.

Gùn moves 5/8.

Other common BA haulers also move the same 5/8 speed, so Gùn is not unique in its respect:

• Heavy tracked APC
• R10 IFV
• Hasek IFV

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Speed wasn't something the OP required, but if you want to get your BA into position it's still important.  As I stated before, not only is the Gun slow, it also carries firepower disproportionate to its size, insuring that it becomes a priority target for destruction. 

[glitterboy2098]

given the BA available to the Capcon, i don't think the Gun was seen as needing speed.
their main BA is the Fa Shih, which has magclamps and thus can be carried by just about anything. if you need to deploy those somewhere fast, you send them by a hover or VTOL. or one of their blindingly fast stealth Locusts.
then you have the Shen Long, which is a quad and thus can;t be mechanized.
and finally you have the Trinity Ying Long, which is liekly the main suit the Gun would be coordinating with. no magclamps so the omnimech aspect is useful. but at the same time, they have mimetic armor and long range BA weapons (BA plasma rifle, MRR, LRR, mapack PPC..), so they aren't exactly 'tip of the spear' suits, with a mission profile more in line with supporting conventional infantry or other BA. and in that sort of role you don't need tons of speed, just the ability to keep pace with the infantry and their APCs/IFV's. to that end the Gun works well. the Ying Long can pace foot infantry on its own, while the Gun can easily keep up with most of the standard APC's and IFV's. while also giving some heavy hitting firepower for taking down bunkers and enemy vehicles.

[Colt Ward]

The real question for this comes back down to . . . this is for BA on the attack/counter-attack.  What are they going to be attacking?  Dug in infantry companies?  would those companies have their own IFV/ISV?  Artillery?  Field Guns?

How would a Omni like the Gun fair trying to get those BA into a position close enough to jump off the attack?

[Daryk]

If you're going to invest in a 'mech (much less an Omni) to move BA, that means you're expecting them to do it the most opposed situations imaginable.  That skews the requirements to armor and speed.  Weapons are a distant third.

[Hellraiser]

How would a Omni like the Gun fair trying to get those BA into a position close enough to jump off the attack?

If you're going to invest in a 'mech (much less an Omni) to move BA, that means you're expecting them to do it the most opposed situations imaginable.  That skews the requirements to armor and speed.  Weapons are a distant third.

I think there are different uses for Omnimech BA deployment.

The Owens/Firemoth are designed to do a high speed insertion ahead of other forces using the BA to claim ground.

But the Gun isn't fluffed for that use.

Its an "Infantry Support Mech".  IE, the Sentinel, Scorpion, Vulcan, and several other "less than stellar" designs over the years.

As Glitter noted above, Quads, Assault BA, stuff w/o X# of hands/claws can't even use Omni's.  Some stuff requires Vees.

Some missions require speedsters.

But sometimes, you need something that carries BA in support of other mech forces & doesn't need speed.
Like, a lance of Guns moving up BEHIND the Heavy Mech Line, keeping pace with 4/6+5/8 mechs but not flying out in front of them at 10MP+ movement.

Something that waits to deploy the BA till after the battle has started & the enemy is focused on the big boys.  That could be a Gun moment.

Or if you are doing that "Infantry Support" job and you need to get the BA somewhere that a Vehicle wont go, like on top of a mountain, or, on an airless moon, etc etc.

The Gun is niche to be sure, but its not useless, I think you would see it in some of those Militias/Guard units that started to get issued BA & Mechs instead of just leg infantry & light tanks.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Nobody said that the Gun is useless, just that it shouldn't be your go-to.

[Scotty]

If it doesn't fit how you want an Omni to work that's entirely fine, but it's suitable for the purpose described.

[martian]

Speed wasn't something the OP required

Yes.

but if you want to get your BA into position it's still important.  As I stated before, not only is the Gun slow

Gùn has the same 5/8 speed as other very common IS BA transports:

• Heavy tracked APC moves 5/8
• R10 IFV moves 5/8
• Hasek IFV moves 5/8

And as for the Clans, the Clans use their 5/8 OmniMechs for their BA deployment too.

Thus, it is not slow, but it has a normal speed for its task.

it also carries firepower disproportionate to its size, insuring that it becomes a priority target for destruction.

Seriously? The Gùn's job is to support friendly infantry and BA, so it needs loadout for that.

Light 'Mechs armed with such kind of loadout are nothing unusual in the BattleTech universe.

[Colt Ward]

If it doesn't fit how you want an Omni to work that's entirely fine, but it's suitable for the purpose described.

Except part of that purpose is the BA have to get delivered.  And the Gun has to survive to a close proximity of the target to successfully deliver the BA (66% chance the squad/point is lost if the unit is destroyed IIRC) and what separates it form 5/8 Clan Omnis is that most (looking at you Cougar) are heavy enough to take a hit or those vehicles both have more overall armor than the Gun but can also use LOS to protect the vehicles from defending fire.

[Scotty]

It has to be faster than the BA walking.  You don't have to (arguably you shouldn't) drop your BA under fire if you can avoid it.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Speed and maneuverability helps with that.

[Scotty]

It's significantly cheaper than a heavy by any metric in and out of universe, and it keeps pace with all but very few of them.  If it doesn't fit how you want an Omni to work that's entirely fine, but it's suitable for the purpose described.

I keep quoting myself on this one because it sounds like the Gun doesn't work doctrinally for you and that's completely fine but that's also not the only way to use an Omni to transport battle armor.  If your Guns are in range to be under fire when they dismount their troopers, they're dismounting too close.

[Colt Ward]

I keep quoting myself on this one because it sounds like the Gun doesn't work doctrinally for you and that's completely fine but that's also not the only way to use an Omni to transport battle armor.  If your Guns are in range to be under fire when they dismount their troopers, they're dismounting too close.

What are the BA attacking?  I will also keep quoting myself because IF the Gun cannot survive to TACTICALLY deliver the BA, it fails in that role due to 66% chance the squad/point DIE with the wreck.

[Starfury]

The Strider is a better choice then the Gun for transport. It doesn't have an XL engine, is faster, rougher, and a lot of the configs are built around EWAR. 

[martian]

The Strider is a better choice then the Gun for transport. It doesn't have an XL engine, is faster, rougher, and a lot of the configs are built around EWAR.

The OP did not require a fast, rough or EWAR 'Mech.

The OP did require a cheap OmniMech for BA transport duty.

Gùn Prime costs 2 millions

Strider Prime costs 5 millions

You can buy five (5) Guns for the cost of two (2) Striders.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Strider Prime still counts as cheap by most metrics.  Also blah blah blah about Battletech's weirdly inelastic prices where a mech that's been in production for almost a century never comes down in price.

[Scotty]

The metric isn't conceptually different if you're using BV. The most expensive Gun is 775.  Most Striders are in the 900s, and the ones that aren't are credibly outgunned by Guns that are still cheaper.

[martian]

Strider Prime still counts as cheap by most metrics.

The official metrics, i.e. BV2, shows that Strider Prime is significantly more expensive than Gùn Prime.

Also blah blah blah ...

Thank you for your valuable opinion.

I take it that those prices, that I posted in my post #54, reflect that Gùn Prime is massively cheaper in-universe than Strider Prime.

[MarauderD]

As an Alpha Strike player, I'd happily use either.  10" of movement is fine for a BA transport.  17 points for the Gun Prime is a small investment.  The Striders are faster and more durable, yes.  If they are a model that does comparable damage, they cost 25 points or more--a 50% increase in price that could be spent on Amazons or Fa Shih, what have you. 

I'd say they are both serviceable.  Just my .02 cents of diffusing power.  (not much power, hah)

[Moonsword]

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