Motive system damage - language barrier

[Zweistein000]

Hey, I have been struggling with understanding the following on page 193 of Total warfare  and could use some input from native speakers to understand this:

All movement and Driving Skill Roll penalties are cumulative. (Example follows)

Does this just mean that if I get moderate damage twice, I get a +2 to DSR and -2 MP. Or does this mean that if I get moderate damage (first time) that this also applies a +1 from minor system damage? Does it mean both?

[AlphaMirage]

It is the first example, multiple instances of motive damage add up to eventually immobilize your vehicle.

[Zweistein000]

Thanks! I thought so, but this makes the following unclear:

If the first motive system damage in a moderate one,  does the vehicle only get a +2 DSR and  -1MP from moderate damage, or does it also get the +1 from minor damage since moderate is worse than minor and they both apply?

[AlphaMirage]

It is only the actual roll, the damage already takes into account lesser rolls.

[Cannonshop]

Hey, I have been struggling with understanding the following on page 193 of Total warfare  and could use some input from native speakers to understand this:

All movement and Driving Skill Roll penalties are cumulative. (Example follows)

Does this just mean that if I get moderate damage twice, I get a +2 to DSR and -2 MP. Or does this mean that if I get moderate damage (first time) that this also applies a +1 from minor system damage? Does it mean both?

Turn 1: Joe's shots hit your vehicle in the front/side/rear/wherever, and he rolls a motive crit.  This crit stacks with the next crit, and the one after that.  (he rolls a 12, say, on 'how many crits' and gets three.  Motive, Motive, crew stunned.  all three apply.  Next turn, he hits another motive crit, it adds to the previous two, whose effect is persistent even if your crew wakes up from being stunned.)

Alternately, Joe rolls 8, only  gets one crit this turn, it goe to the motive, you're at plus one for the rest of the match, if he motive crits you again, you're at plus two, and so on, for the rst of the match.

Now here's the fun one: if you're heavily armored enough, the optimum strategy for your assault or Heavy tank (movement 3/5 or slower base) is to park it, and let the motive crits stack.

some groups call this strategy 'bunkering' and it's something that really only works with slow tracked or wheeled vees.  The reason it's worth having in your toolbox, is that heavy or assault tracks benefit from this-they have more armor per ton due to fewer locations to protect and a lower hit-box.  a parked Alacorn can command a zone of considerable size, even if the turret gets locked, and it's essentially going to take the vast majority of critical hits to the tracks-you-aren't-using-anyway.

These units tend to SUFFER if you try to use them in a mobile role.  3/5 means that to get any defensive movement modifier, you have to flank, likewise if you need to climb a hill, which reduces your accuracy by MORE than the defensive benefit of being in motion.  YES, that means you're fairly easy to immobilize, but if you didn't intend to move again anyway, that's not an issue.  A motive crit on an immobilized unit doesn't move or transfer, it just stacks up, so as long as you've got armor and/or internal structure remaining, you're good to go when bunkering.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

You're not quite right there, Cannonshop.  A motive damage roll is not a type of crit.  It's a product of a specific hit location roll depending on which vehicle hit location table is being used (front, side, or rear).  Things that modify critical hit rolls, like Hardened Armor, have no effect on motive damage rolls.

Also, vehicle critical hit rolls don't follow the mech "roll 2d6 to see how many crits" rule: for vehicles any time you get a critical hit check, you roll 2d6, add or subtract any relevant modifiers that there may be, then look at the final number and consult the vehicle critical hit table for the relevant hit location.  Unless otherwise stated, each critical hit result can only occur once, and in the event that you get a crit that has already been rolled or isn't relevant (like "weapon destroyed" for a location with no weapons) you go up to the next highest critical hit result, repeating as necessary until you get a valid critical hit result.

[Charistoph]

Thanks! I thought so, but this makes the following unclear:

If the first motive system damage in a moderate one,  does the vehicle only get a +2 DSR and  -1MP from moderate damage, or does it also get the +1 from minor damage since moderate is worse than minor and they both apply?

DSR modifications do not stack.  If you get a dozen Minor Motive Damage results, you're still only looking at a +1 Driving Skill Modifier.

However, if you get 4 Minor Motive Damage Results and 4 Moderate Motive Damage results, you'll have +3 to DSRs (+1 for Minor, +2 for Moderate), have -4 Cruising MP (with Flanking recalculated to 1.5x the new Cruising).

All this is listed under the '*' on the Motive System Damage Table of Total Warfare pg 193.

[Zweistein000]

What I want to know now is what happens if you get a motive damage hit of higher level before lower levels? Fox example: if you get Major damage on your first hit (opponent rolls a 11 on motive system damage). Do you automatically get a +6  (+1 from minor and  +2 from moderate damage as well as -1mp) and then half MP, or do you only get the +3 and half MP for major hit and can still later get a +1 and +2? I get that you can get a -1 MP and half MP again and that you don't get more than one +1/+2/+3 DSR from specific damage.

[Charistoph]

What I want to know now is what happens if you get a motive damage hit of higher level before lower levels? Fox example: if you get Major damage on your first hit (opponent rolls a 11 on motive system damage). Do you automatically get a +6  (+1 from minor and  +2 from moderate damage as well as -1mp) and then half MP, or do you only get the +3 and half MP for major hit and can still later get a +1 and +2? I get that you can get a -1 MP and half MP again and that you don't get more than one +1/+2/+3 DSR from specific damage.

Major Motive Damage only provides a +3 by itself.  If you have no other Motive Damage, it's +3.  In order to get a +6, you need all three different types of Motive Damage to be inflicted. 

If Major Damage did all 3 types at the same time, it would be set up so Major Damage is +6 and it is NOT cumulative with other types.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

What I want to know now is what happens if you get a motive damage hit of higher level before lower levels? Fox example: if you get Major damage on your first hit (opponent rolls a 11 on motive system damage). Do you automatically get a +6  (+1 from minor and  +2 from moderate damage as well as -1mp) and then half MP, or do you only get the +3 and half MP for major hit and can still later get a +1 and +2? I get that you can get a -1 MP and half MP again and that you don't get more than one +1/+2/+3 DSR from specific damage.

You only ever get the results indicated by the roll.

[Zweistein000]

Ahh, that clears it up, then. Thanks guys.

Maybe a suggestion for the devs, of they read the forums: You could include an example text in the next errata :) It would make understanding this easier as the system is a bit unique in the rules.

[Col Toda]

Once a vehicle has the immobilized status then a heavy and sometimes an Assault tank only lives 1-3 turns as the general tactic is an aimed shot on the least armored  location  . A slow tank hull down  in field works has  +2 defense modifier and a -2 on Motar crits is still a viable choice . I tend to use vehicles as fast  spotting and TAG so mobility is more important than fire power save in dropship landing zone defense. 

[ThePW]

You're not quite right there, Cannonshop.  A motive damage roll is not a type of crit.  It's a product of a specific hit location roll depending on which vehicle hit location table is being used (front, side, or rear).  Things that modify critical hit rolls, like Hardened Armor, have no effect on motive damage rolls.

Also, vehicle critical hit rolls don't follow the mech "roll 2d6 to see how many crits" rule: for vehicles any time you get a critical hit check, you roll 2d6, add or subtract any relevant modifiers that there may be, then look at the final number and consult the vehicle critical hit table for the relevant hit location.  Unless otherwise stated, each critical hit result can only occur once, and in the event that you get a crit that has already been rolled or isn't relevant (like "weapon destroyed" for a location with no weapons) you go up to the next highest critical hit result, repeating as necessary until you get a valid critical hit result.

Yes, No and Maybe.

Now, my copy of my TW is like over a decade old... so correct me with the proper Eraii reference if necessary but...

https://www.google.com/search?q=cumulative&sca_esv=084c57da62ed842d&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWILglbbXDRLqVsM3ZeNsGQFV_Kq5BQ%3A1724808402350&source=hp&ei=0nzOZpnNEvyT0PEP6tyn0AE&iflsig=AL9hbdgAAAAAZs6K4i0S4wNWwGWk8no-lEpkx0qEtEnN&oq=******&gs_lp=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&sclient=gws-wiz

cumulative.

That's the difference between Motive System Damage and Critical Hits. Critical Hits only apply once. a Second Critical Hit roll to the same table location would move down the chart (pg. 193-194, TW) until all the crits are hit.

the Driver Skill Penalty applies ONCE per roll BUT the MP reduction accumulates. It's that way so that any roll will continue to remain HURTFUL (in other words, while there is a cap/limit on the DSR/PSR at +6, there is not a cap on the Motive reduction, thus you can bring a vehicle to 0Mp with a series of rolls (after you apply modifiers) of 8 or 9s but not Immobile it).

A Savannah Master could have an incredible day with a single +2 PSR and -6 or 7 MP if its opposition was a Urbanmech with an 8/8 pilot.

sorry about the huge link. *shrug* IDK how to fix it but its important because I wanted to know the definition of the word 'cumulative'

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, and I clearly stated I was talking about how vehicle critical hits worked, not how vehicle motive hits worked, since Cannonshop had erroneously stated that they worked like mech crits.