Clan Large Pulse Lasers

[OatsAndHall]

One of my gaming groups plays a lot of 3150-era matches. As such, I tend to field at least one unit with a CLPL as a)it's accurate and b) it's range is great. I don't spam them, by any means, but I enjoy the flexibility the weapon gives me when building a force. A few of our players have been getting testy when they get chewed up by these CLPL and have suggested limiting them. My counter-point has always been that they have the ability to field them as well. There's nothing stopping them from literally only fielding units with these weapons (which I don't).

Thoughts?

[Charistoph]

Sounds like sour grapes.  One of the easiest counters to CLPL is Reflective Armor, followed by Hardened and Ferro-Lamellar Armor.  That or just some form of artillery.

Am I remembering wrong that this is the same group that gets upset about anything they haven't tried being introduced?

[AlphaMirage]

Sounds like sour grapes.  One of the easiest counters to CLPL is Reflective Armor, followed by Hardened and Ferro-Lamellar Armor.  That or just some form of artillery.

Am I remembering wrong that this is the same group that gets upset about anything they haven't tried being introduced?

Agreed, I'd also consider Smoke a good hard counter or fast hovercraft with Infernos. Can't snipe what you can't see, but I can indirect fire toward you.

Now if you are playing Zell then you should get little honor for using those weapons as they require little risk to the user. Real Warriors close with and destroy their enemy.

[Empyrus]

Well the weapon is essentially undercosted in BV (baked in to-hit modifiers in general are aren't valued quite right, MRMs and heavy lasers are overcosted for their to hit penalty) and as such units with them are also on cheap side for their effectiveness. So it is easy to see dislike for them.

"You can field them too" is not really a good counter-argument though. That requires wanting to field units that use the weapon, in other words mixed tech or Clan units. For some factions that may not even be an option (if one does follow faction restrictions).

Counterplay for cLPLs is tricky.
Reflective armor units are expensive (perhaps even overtly so, again a minor problem with BV2.0) and not that common. And requires selecting these units.
One could utilize sheer mass of heavily armored units that are on the slower side (so the cLPL's bonus accuracy is effectively negated), but again this requires tailoring ones forces, rather than playing what one may regard fun.

A group having fun is certainly something to consider, because if it won't stay fun soon there might not even be a group.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to field the weapon either though. But if other players regard playing against you not fun, it may be you do utilize just too many cLPLs. Or perhaps there's something else that just makes it appear the cLPL is the problem rather, eg suppose you're clearly more skilled player but others appear to perceive it as being the result of the cLPL, or your general forces are just simply better constructed.

Going back to the first point, if you are playing BV balanced games, you could play with slight handicap against others without cLPLs. Suppose 10 000 BV game, you build your force only to 9500 BV (or they get X-amount of extra BV if they don't use cLPLs). Small difference might make the game feel more even.
Granted it may be difficult to find a point where this has benefit for them, doesn't actually constrain you too much, and things actually end being even. Or more importantly, fun, at least i think a loss can be fun if the game was enjoyable otherwise.

If overall force building is the problem, it might be a good idea to work with them to improve those forces in a way they still find their forces fun to play. There are units that are better than their BV implies and units that are arguably worse than their BV, and some units just don't have synergy together, and whatever else pitfalls force building may have.
But if there are no problems on this, not sure what else to suggest.

EDIT Judging by other replies there is more to this? Note i wrote my post entirely without any larger context, no knowledge about you, your group, whatever issues you may have had before.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well, although you cannot deny that it is the most broken weapon, and any countermeasure could be effective on the other weapons too. Although it have high BV but it is not THAT higher than its performance either. I'd rather pick a Clans LPL over Clans ER PPC, for example, for Clans LPL seems to be far superior weapon - although it has lower damage output but has longer effective range than Clans ER PPC. Yes, I said that LPL has longer effective range than ER PPC, and you read it correctly, for you can rarely hit the target on the long range bracket but thanks to -2 to hit modifier LPL can aims the targets in long range as if that is on the medium range.

Anyway, unless you have a good houserule to make it not broken as it does for now, you know that the local meta does matters on your local community. But limiting the numbers of total guns would be not that good, since it could lead them to fill with at least that much numbers of LPLs. Else maybe your community could make the houserule for that. I'd suggest to not touch its performance directly, though, but what about adjust its BV instead?

Also remember that houserule is should be discussed on the fan rules section. So I don't want to talk much for the houserule. But anyway, if you want to make a houserule for that weapon then I can't help it, seriously.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

"You can field them too" is not really a good counter-argument though. That requires wanting to field units that use the weapon, in other words mixed tech or Clan units. For some factions that may not even be an option (if one does follow faction restrictions).

Although it is true that some factions cannot access for this for some situations but OP did said that it's the 3150 era match, thus it is unlikely that there would be a faction that cannot access for it at all.

Besides, it is well said that 'you can do that' is not that good. on the computer games you can easily change your pawns, but for the miniature game, you rarely have the chance and it requires you to put aside your old models instead.

[Empyrus]

Although it is true that some factions cannot access for this for some situations but OP did said that it's the 3150 era match, thus it is unlikely that there would be a faction that cannot access for it at all.

It does seem likely most factions certainly get access to cLPLs in 3150 but even then the selection may be extremely limited.
For example, the Periphery General list for ilClan era contains only 7 Clan or mixed tech mechs (didn't check vehicles). Of these, i think only the Vixen standard carries a cLPL. And it is only a light and not even particularly fast, so it is actually vulnerable to the same weapon.

Besides, it is well said that 'you can do that' is not that good. on the computer games you can easily change your pawns, but for the miniature game, you rarely have the chance and it requires you to put aside your old models instead.

Didn't actually think of miniature availability at all, i figured players will use proxies. A reasonable concern for sure.
Then again, i know i personally don't want to use a proxy. A Warhammer can represent any Warhammer for me, but i won't use it for another unit almost certainly (though i have no problems with others using proxies, just a personal preference regarding my own units, as is my preference toward WYSIWYG model matching variants).

[Challenger]

I can't say I like the idea of banning or even restricting something that has been part of the core game for over thirty real world years now.

Though that weapon itself is the single biggest reason why I don't typically play Clan forces. Without the (internal) need to justify the presence of the best gun in the game on any given mech, I fear I would end up spamming the weapon.

....all that said, its not a ludicrously overpowered weapon or particularly broken to my mind. It is still only 10 damage, its fairly high heat and ultimately can be countered by the same tactic that has been gospel advice for IS forces fighting the Clans for over three decades.

"If you don't like being chewed up at range, get close."

No special tech required. 

Challenger

[Starfury]

There are plenty of cheap counters to CLPLs

Vehicles
Light Gauss Rifles
Artillery
Rocket Launchers
Shields
Smoke
LI missiles
Battle armor
And so on.  Heck melee mechs like the Ti Tsang are great ways to break up CLPL lines.

[Iceweb]

Another workable counter to cLPL is stealth.  Sure the pulse still helps, but if you stay at long range its still a net +2 to hit (Warranty void where Void involved)  I don't know if cannon has any mechs but I could imagine a Chameleon and Null equipped mech with Reflective armor would be very hard for someone who likes to use a lot of cLPL to dislodge.   

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Slow, heavily-armored units are the real counter to CLPLs.  The to hit bonus doesn't matter as much and the laser's relatively low damage output for its size becomes an issue.

[Retry]

Sounds like sour grapes.  One of the easiest counters to CLPL is Reflective Armor, followed by Hardened and Ferro-Lamellar Armor.  That or just some form of artillery.

Am I remembering wrong that this is the same group that gets upset about anything they haven't tried being introduced?

Ferro-Lam doesn't really counter CLPLs?  It's just a generally really good armor type against almost everything.  Does counter SRMs really bad, and LB-X becomes a bit of a no-show.

Reflective is definitely a counter, but it has way more massive downsides than Ferro-Lamellor, Reactive, Ballistic-Reinforced, or even Hardened.  Laundry-list of vulnerabilities from artillery to bombs, physical attacks, fall damage, and specialty weapons such as tandem-charged SRMs and autocannon AP ammo.  I've gotten good use of the other anti-flavor armors, but reflective's penalties are just so rough...

[Hellraiser]

only the Vixen standard carries a cLPL. And it is only a light and not even particularly fast,

Point of order.
Did you just say a Vixen wasn't fast?
WHAT is your definition of fast?

[Hellraiser]

Slow, heavily-armored units are the real counter to CLPLs.  The to hit bonus doesn't matter as much and the laser's relatively low damage output for its size becomes an issue.

THANK YOU.
I'm glad someone said it.
Just throw a Wall of Steel at them & watch them shrug off LPL hits all day.

[Hellraiser]

As such, I tend to field at least one unit with a CLPL as a)it's accurate and b) it's range is great. I don't spam them, by any means,

Questions:
1.  Size of Forces?
2.  # of LPLs?
3.  Units your using w/ them?   (Warhawk-C & Vixen-1 play very differently)
4.  Size of the Play Area?

[DevianID]

I think the issue here is that any counter to the LPL is just a generic thing to try and 'out cheese' the LPL.  Its not a healthy solution, as most solutions are just generally good things versus all weapons, meaning the LPL, king of regular weapons, is still the best counter for them.  Looking at the list here:

There are plenty of cheap counters to CLPLs

Vehicles
Light Gauss Rifles
Artillery
Rocket Launchers
Shields
Smoke
LI missiles
Battle armor

Vehicles presumably means LOTS of vehicles.  Failing that, it means things like the 700 armor gulltoppr.  Any normal vehicle has the same pitfall as normal mechs--the LPL wins trades at all ranges.  So a hard to hit hovercraft or something encourages you to bring MORE LPLs, as the weapon that can hit the buggers.  The 700 armor gulltoppr does encourage other weapons though, as a slow -4 immobilized tank wants raw damage as they are so easy to hit, but the LPL is still a good weapon early to get those flanking immobilized results at long range.  Its only after the LPL immobilizes the gulltoppr that the LRMs and such can clean it up.
Light Gauss Rifles presumably means having 21+ hex range guns.  This just isnt the solution.  The ERPPC likewise outranges the CLPL.  If the light gauss rifle was a clan LPL killer, everyone would know it already.  On reasonable tables you cant kite an LPL forever, and you arnt hitting light gauss shots any easier then you are regular ERPPC shots, which is to say not enough to kill LPLs before they get in range 1 turn later.
Rocket Launchers are horrible weapons in BV.  The formula for RLs treats them as 1.5 energy weapons instead of 1.2 multipler one shot missile launchers, so they will always lose trades versus the supremely efficient LPL.  The fact that you want to be 3 hexes away from the enemy means RLs only work if you are spamming 100 cheap custom vtols, at which point you have an even worse cheese.
Shields are anti-everything.  So adding a shield to absorb LPLs just makes EVERY weapon worse by the same degree.  It doesnt stop LPLs from being the best weapon at hitting the shield unit for maximum long range damage.
Smoke is likewise anti-everything.  Making your to-hits higher just makes the value of the LPL go up.  Smoke is terribly balanced for the game, and pushes players to take MORE LPLs to actually hit the smoke'd units, not less LPLs.
Laser inhibiting missiles and reflective armor both reduce the damage that LPLs deal.  However, arrow-launched smoke LI also has the issues that smoke has, and artillery is even more broken in BV.  Reducing an LPL by 2 damage, more if you hide in more smoke and penalize yourself, doesnt help really at all... an 8 damage LPL will still win trades thanks to the hit bonus.  You are better off shooting regular arrow missiles instead of LI arrow missiles.
Battle armor once again is not an LPL counter unless you are talking about spamming tons of them... at which point its a spam list.  The LPL is still super efficient at picking up stealthy battle armor no one else can hit.  Like most hard to hit things, battle armor encourages more pulse lasers, not less.

There were other suggestions, but again they all come down to anti-anything solutions like 'take artillery in massive numbers' or 'float heavy bomb trucks at the player till they no longer wish to allow artillery or air power'. 

Reflective armor was the best suggestion I saw, with its drawbacks and high price though I can see the group preferring to limit LPLs.

In MRC, most games have a pulse limit.  When the pulse limit for a list was 40, the quad LPL mechs were too good, with 1st and 2nd place packing a 4 LPL mech.  Its only 4 total LPLs in the whole list, but 4 was still too much.  We tried 30-34, but then the most popular mech by far was the Direwolf A with 3 LPL and a gauss.  So most recently we are at 28 pulse limit, for 4 clan mediums or 2 clan larges max.  It has worked to open up more variety in mechs, as unlike when the pulse limit was 30 or 40 and we saw lots of the same LPL mech, at 28 pulse limit other designs became more popular.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Point of order.
Did you just say a Vixen wasn't fast?
WHAT is your definition of fast?

I'm assuming they confused the Vixen and Peregrine.

[Hellraiser]

meaning the LPL, king of regular weapons, is still the best counter for them. 

I've never felt the LPL was king of weapons myself.
I have a LOT more fear of the MPL.
1/3 the tonnage for 21 Damage v/s 10, at 2/3 of the range.
Yeah, the MPL is something I'm worried about, not so much the LPL.

Which isn't to say I don't field the LPL, the D-Wolf-A is hands down the most common D-Wolf I field, but that has nothing to do w/ the LPL & everything to do w/ the low heat of the Gauss & Streaks

I'm actually trying to think now of where I use LPLs in my Omnimechs.

DWolf-A for the heat management.
Warhawk-C  (Sometimes, but for the BV and heat, I more often go A/D)
Gargoyle-A, but that is about the Twin ERPPC & not the 1 LPL.  (Just as often use the D)
MadDog-Prime  (Again, more about heat than pulse as I'm far more likely to shoot the MPLs + LRMs)
Stormcrow-B?  (I think it has LPL but it also has MPLs which is what I use it for.
BattleCobra-Prime  (Again, heat management)

I can't say that I favor any other "LPL" out there off the top of my head.

I can say the only mech where I actually use the LPLs as the primary weapon & strictly fight in the LPL sweet spots is the BattleCobra, at least till PBIs show themselves.

For the rest of the above its more about using the LPL as part of the overall platform which is heat cool compared to other configurations but still has some energy weapons.
I'd be happier making a custom podload that used ERPPCs or MPLs running in good heat patterns than I would making LPL configurations.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Ryoken C is the one with the large pulse.  The B has six ER mediums and an ultra 20.

[Hellraiser]

Ah yes, That's the one. 

Not a fan of the Ultra model myself.  It's the opposite of cool running.

[Charistoph]

Ferro-Lam doesn't really counter CLPLs?  It's just a generally really good armor type against almost everything.  Does counter SRMs really bad, and LB-X becomes a bit of a no-show.

It does in that it drops it from PPC strength to Large Laser strength, and it takes more than 2 to cause a PSR.  Still more the Standard Armor does.

Reflective is definitely a counter, but it has way more massive downsides than Ferro-Lamellor, Reactive, Ballistic-Reinforced, or even Hardened.  Laundry-list of vulnerabilities from artillery to bombs, physical attacks, fall damage, and specialty weapons such as tandem-charged SRMs and autocannon AP ammo.  I've gotten good use of the other anti-flavor armors, but reflective's penalties are just so rough...

Didn't say Reflective doesn't have its own share of problems, just saying its the most efficient counter.  Depending on how they play, Artillery, Bombs, and Physicals may not be an issue.

[Empyrus]

Point of order.
Did you just say a Vixen wasn't fast?
WHAT is your definition of fast?

I said "isn't particularly fast". 7/11 is pretty mundane light mech speed, especially since it doesn't even jump. Contrast to 6/9, with jump or not, that is merely average for a light.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Vixen moves 9/14.

[Empyrus]

The Vixen moves 9/14.

Oh, so it does. So, okay, it is fast. Hmm. Must've been thinking some other similarly shaped mech (visual memory so...), not the Peregrine though.

But still only 30 tonner, and the kind that actually gets targeted with pulse lasers since it is hard to hit it with anything else. Still think my point about cLPL availability, such as in Periphery General, stands. The Vixen may be good, but you can hardly built a force of cLPLs with just it. And if one happens not to like it or doens't have mini for it... Building a force with cLPLs is hardly guaranteed option.

[Charistoph]

The Vixen may be good, but you can hardly built a force of cLPLs with just it.

Other than model availability, why?  It is one of the most popular dueling 'Mechs of the Clans, so should be one of the most readily available second-liners in an touman.

Now, in terms of should build a force of CLPLs with just that, I can agree.  One should have at least one anchor and one skirmisher in a force if one can manage.  The Warhawk C or Kingfisher Prime could handle the former, and either a Horned Owl or Vapor Eagle could handle the other.

[Empyrus]

Other than model availability, why?  It is one of the most popular dueling 'Mechs of the Clans, so should be one of the most readily available second-liners in an touman.

I'm not thinking a Clan force. Rather a force whose cLPL options are limited to the Vixen and perhaps some smattering of others at best, possibly no other options.

If a force's all cLPLs are in light mechs, and your force somehow relies on those cLPLs... Light mechs, even good ones like the Vixen, have their weaknesses. (All eggs in one basket situation really.)

[Daryk]

I seem to recall a Rifleman variant with four of the damned things...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I seem to recall a Rifleman variant with four of the damned things...

Not a Rifleman variant, that's the Rifleman IIC.  The Supernova 4 also packs four of them.

[Daryk]

Yeah, that one...

[Charistoph]

I'm not thinking a Clan force. Rather a force whose cLPL options are limited to the Vixen and perhaps some smattering of others at best, possibly no other options.

If a force's all cLPLs are in light mechs, and your force somehow relies on those cLPLs... Light mechs, even good ones like the Vixen, have their weaknesses. (All eggs in one basket situation really.)

If they are all in fast Light Mechs, they can be where you want them when you need them.  They will also be on separate hulls which means that in order to kill multiple of them you're splitting fire, either on one 'Mech (which is not wise against something that can achieve a decent TMM) or across your force, or you're overkilling one Mech.  Also since they are Light, they are (relatively) cheap which means you can put more of them on the field than fielding Heavies, Assaults, or even Mediums.

In fact there is precedence with the Ice Hellions.  Not the greatest force, but they would be the ones to do exactly this.

So, yes, you CAN hardly build a force of all Incubus.  It may be wiser not to (depending on the opposing force), but you can (again, aside from model availability).

[Colt Ward]

Agreed, I'd also consider Smoke a good hard counter or fast hovercraft with Infernos. Can't snipe what you can't see, but I can indirect fire toward you.

Scaphas are great against cLPL, I know I frustrated someone when I introduced them to the 2 MVSPL config against a TWolf B in a BV match.  Only thing that hit was the LPL, damage cut in half . . . and then my MVSPLs double tapped the same rear side torso armor.

[DevianID]

Scaphas are great against cLPL, I know I frustrated someone when I introduced them to the 2 MVSPL config against a TWolf B in a BV match.  Only thing that hit was the LPL, damage cut in half . . . and then my MVSPLs double tapped the same rear side torso armor.

I mean, that kind of goes to my point.  If the only thing that hit was the large pulse, despite the large pulse only dealing 5 damage, it was still putting in more damage then the LRM or Gauss Rifle on a Timby B.  On the high end of the bell curve accuracy trumps all, and speed+smoke quickly take you to the high end of the bell curve over inflating the importance of pulse accuracy.
Or like Ferro-Lam.  Ferro Lam reduces everything by 1 per 5.  SRMs lose far more damage then Large Pulse Lasers, and still have to hit on big numbers while the LPL has that massive accuracy.  Only heat damage isnt reduced by ferro lam, but if you have more then 15 heat sinks you can be immune to excess heat damage.

On the topic of MPL versus LPL, its more an activity level thing.  MPLs are more damage/efficient, but you have to move into closer range.  The LPL often just parks in woods (with smoke if you allowed it for some reason), so its a very non-interactive weapon.  From the midboard the LPL can hit anything accurately, forcing the other player to have to deal with it.  So while the 14 MPL 100 ton clan mechs will shred up close, the 4 LPL mechs deal damage without bothering to maneuver or anything, forcing the other player to have to play the game for both sides.  But at MRC we ban all pulse damage after a threshold has been reached... my Nova/Blackhawk S otherwise is a right terror with 6 MPLs.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I think the issue here is that any counter to the LPL is just a generic thing to try and 'out cheese' the LPL.  Its not a healthy solution, as most solutions are just generally good things versus all weapons, meaning the LPL, king of regular weapons, is still the best counter for them.

Basically this. Those so called solutions are all end up gives the advantage to the LPL, nothing else, since LPL is still the best choice over the other long ranged direct fire weapons and those 'solutions' make the non-LPL weapons even worse, and only push the meta to consolidate the superiority of LPL.

I've never felt the LPL was king of weapons myself.
I have a LOT more fear of the MPL.

Well, you cannot compare both of those, for those weapons have totally different role. While MPL is good at medium range harrasser LPL is the best long ranged sniper rifle. If MPL cannot cause more damage than LPL on their right range bracket, it must be wrong.

[Daryk]

Against fast things in terrain, indirect AOE über alles...

[Challenger]

Against fast things in terrain, indirect AOE über alles...

You’re not wrong, but Clan LPL do have the advantage of being tournament legal so more widely/reliably available.

Challenger

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Not to mention that AOE weapons are not easy to acquire. Most of those are very inefficient and/or too heavy, leaving only few weapons and units to be usable.

[wundergoat]

Scaphas are great against cLPL, I know I frustrated someone when I introduced them to the 2 MVSPL config against a TWolf B in a BV match.  Only thing that hit was the LPL, damage cut in half . . . and then my MVSPLs double tapped the same rear side torso armor.

I’ve not done the calcs for MVSPLs, but LVSPL BV is so busted it makes pulse lasers seem overpriced.  LVSPLs have lower BV than expected for their damage without any sort of accuracy bonus.

[Hellraiser]

Not to mention that AOE weapons are not easy to acquire. Most of those are very inefficient and/or too heavy, leaving only few weapons and units to be usable.

True, but, it doesn't take many of them to stop a fast horde.
I seem to recall having a pair of Thumpers in a battle that quickly dispatched the 3 Drillsons/Pegasi? that were trying to get into the back field to kill the Thumpers.
Many "fast" things are either light on armor or easily immobilized.
Sure, they didn't do a ton of damage, but, with some bigger units to screen in front of them the damage added up quickly when it couldn't be countered.

[Col Toda]

Have the guy with a large pulse laser fight a fast more manuverable mech with a Snub Nosed PPC and combat reflexes ie initiative roll 3d6 take the best 2 . Just keep to range 9 and let them see a unit that is just as accurate at range 9 with inner Sphere tech .

[OatsAndHall]

Well the weapon is essentially undercosted in BV (baked in to-hit modifiers in general are aren't valued quite right, MRMs and heavy lasers are overcosted for their to hit penalty) and as such units with them are also on cheap side for their effectiveness. So it is easy to see dislike for them.

"You can field them too" is not really a good counter-argument though. That requires wanting to field units that use the weapon, in other words mixed tech or Clan units. For some factions that may not even be an option (if one does follow faction restrictions).

Counterplay for cLPLs is tricky.
Reflective armor units are expensive (perhaps even overtly so, again a minor problem with BV2.0) and not that common. And requires selecting these units.
One could utilize sheer mass of heavily armored units that are on the slower side (so the cLPL's bonus accuracy is effectively negated), but again this requires tailoring ones forces, rather than playing what one may regard fun.

A group having fun is certainly something to consider, because if it won't stay fun soon there might not even be a group.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to field the weapon either though. But if other players regard playing against you not fun, it may be you do utilize just too many cLPLs. Or perhaps there's something else that just makes it appear the cLPL is the problem rather, eg suppose you're clearly more skilled player but others appear to perceive it as being the result of the cLPL, or your general forces are just simply better constructed.

Going back to the first point, if you are playing BV balanced games, you could play with slight handicap against others without cLPLs. Suppose 10 000 BV game, you build your force only to 9500 BV (or they get X-amount of extra BV if they don't use cLPLs). Small difference might make the game feel more even.
Granted it may be difficult to find a point where this has benefit for them, doesn't actually constrain you too much, and things actually end being even. Or more importantly, fun, at least i think a loss can be fun if the game was enjoyable otherwise.

If overall force building is the problem, it might be a good idea to work with them to improve those forces in a way they still find their forces fun to play. There are units that are better than their BV implies and units that are arguably worse than their BV, and some units just don't have synergy together, and whatever else pitfalls force building may have.
But if there are no problems on this, not sure what else to suggest.

EDIT Judging by other replies there is more to this? Note i wrote my post entirely without any larger context, no knowledge about you, your group, whatever issues you may have had before.

Yeah, a few guys in my regular gaming group tend to get whiny when new tech/strategies pop up on the table. They got frustrated with the use of BA spotting for IDF and then lost their minds when I ran TAG for the first time.

I could understand their frustration if the table was spammed with CLPL but it isn't. We had a few games where the the table was filled with Clan pulse lasers and then everyone started running Reflective armor. Folks got bored with that so we started diversifying and moved forward. But, now we have guys who never bring them and get p-ssed off when someone else does. One of our regulars will only bring IS tech to 3150 games as he either wants more units or better pilots. But... He loses his mind when he gets ripped up by Clan pulses because he just can't match them.

Edit: Our IS-only player could handle the lower tech if he was a more conscientious player. There's been numerous times where he's had numerous, monster IS units but just hasn't figured out the movement-modifier aspect of the game. He tends to over-expose himself with poor movement (typically running for short distances) and then gets wrecked. He ran a late era Wolverine 4 hexes with no-cover, within 6 hexes of my stationary Dire Wolf A and was furious when he got raked with CLPLs, a Gauss round and SRMs...

[Charistoph]

He loses his mind when he gets ripped up by Clan pulses because he just can't match them.

Or he just never bothered trying to counter it.

One of the most frustrating fights I had was with someone who brought VTOL-borne TAG for his Semi-Guided LRM Carriers.  I created my list to use Celestial Primes, an Avatar with C3i, and a Point of Protomechs, i.e. no Flak or Pulse.  However, I recognized that it was my fault for bringing an unprepared list.  Since then, I bring Flak whenever the Tech Level allows for it.

[Retry]

Hate to say it, but it sounds like that one player is actively gimping himself by taking 3025-only tech while not having the tactical acumen to actually pull that off...

[Hellraiser]

You don't even need Standard tech really.

This is why I asked about Force Sizes & Map Sizes & # of LPLs.

Sure, is a Warhawk-C pretty scary.  Yep.  But I can bring 3 Awesomes w/ 3 Gunners for a Pair of Warhawks w/ 4 Gunners.

Mass/#s can & does win plenty of fights.

Vixen giving you problems?  Unless your fighting on rolling maps, it can be surrounded by a pair of Jenner-F or a Platoon (or 2) of Hovers.
Savannah Swarm does wonders, but basic Pegasus tanks also work.

The LPL only seems invincible if you are playing right into it's strengths which is sniping at slower or weak armor units.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

ER PPCs are the weapons for sniping slow-moving targets.  LPLs are what you counter fast but fragile enemies with.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well Clans LPL is better at sniping than ER PPC due to its longer effective range too. 6/14/20 surely outranges -/7/14. Unless the pilot of the unit with ER PPC have gunnery better than 3+ and have Sniper SPA, thus change the range bracket of ER PPC by -/7/14/23.

And, although it is true that the better weapon does not grants an auto win button and tactics does matters, but it is the problem as well - because tactics does matters, of course, and your opponent is not a dumb and simple programmed script that cannot making a tactic either. Perhaps it would be works against dumb AI, but with almost similar level it would be very likely that the someone with the better weapon beats someone without.

[OatsAndHall]

Hate to say it, but it sounds like that one player is actively gimping himself by taking 3025-only tech while not having the tactical acumen to actually pull that off...

He's bringing later era IS tech (Clanbuster mechs through 3150) and has been playing awhile. But, he's still behind the curve when it comes to to many aspects of the game. He'll move a mech, have LOS on one of mine and need 9+ TH while I only need 6+, returning fire. Now, we have a couple of guys in the group who struggle at times and we'll talk about what went wrong during and after the game. That used to help keep the whining to a dull roar but not so much as of late.  Our GM does a good job of introducing various environmental conditions that keeps the group from spamming certain weapons of technology. HAGs are all over the board? Okay, now we have heavy wind conditions. Everyone has TCs? Okay, there's an electrical storm mucking them up. He warns everyone ahead of time. Those that read the rules adjust accordingly.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well in this situation even if he did have full of clantech units on his hands and are counted as if IS units for BV I doubt that it would be anything different.

[Colt Ward]

Or he just never bothered trying to counter it.

One of the most frustrating fights I had was with someone who brought VTOL-borne TAG for his Semi-Guided LRM Carriers.  I created my list to use Celestial Primes, an Avatar with C3i, and a Point of Protomechs, i.e. no Flak or Pulse.  However, I recognized that it was my fault for bringing an unprepared list.  Since then, I bring Flak whenever the Tech Level allows for it.

I loved fighting these type of people (not saying you are that type) on MegaMek servers . . . they build a force to bring the greatest number of hole punchers on the least platforms with slabs or armor.  I bring a mix of units in high numbers and always multiple LB-10X . . . they then complain about suffering a TAC.

Well yeah, you built to pound armor while I built to isolate & cripple- ESPECIALLY against Gauss Rifles since they tend to be in torsos with IS XLs.

Sure, sometimes I take unlucky breaks and that Wall of Steel is going to win- usually I was in position to withdraw b/c I was not in 3/5 plodders.  But a force designed to deal with multiple threats will generally win if played properly.

Ranged punchers- ERPPC, ERLL, Gauss, PPCs & to a lesser extent UAC/10s
Lots of hits at a distance for crits or TACs, typically AA too-  LB-10X, Silver Bullet Gauss, LB-5X
Infernos for BA, Inf, and vehicles
Something fast to get around the flanks to split the attention

[Daryk]

If the Sniper SPA is in play, remember it applies to Extreme Range too (not LOS though, fortunately).  That means a shot at twice Medium Range is only +3, easier than a "normal" pilot at Long Range.

[truetanker]

Not a Rifleman variant, that's the Rifleman IIC.  The Supernova 4 also packs four of them.

3 cLPLs and run, with a 3/4 Pilot, yes please, no range band discrepancy, or torso twist limits and maximum elevation?

TT

[OatsAndHall]

We used to "encourage" balanced forces but now our GM is setting up scenarios that pretty much demand it. Regardless of the BV, you'll always find a mix of weapons within my build. I'll almost always have at least one CLPL, some LRMs and an LBX-10. Everything else is a mix, depending on what I feel like playing and/or the scenario for the week. We're playing a scenario this week and I'll be defending a city. As such, I'm going to have more PL (Clan and IS) as I know the assaulting force is going to be full of jumpers.

[Son of Kerenski]

I'd rather pick a Clans LPL over Clans ER PPC, for example, for Clans LPL seems to be far superior weapon - although it has lower damage output but has longer effective range than Clans ER PPC. Yes, I said that LPL has longer effective range than ER PPC, and you read it correctly, for you can rarely hit the target on the long range bracket but thanks to -2 to hit modifier LPL can aims the targets in long range as if that is on the medium range.

Except the CERPPC and CERLL have a longer range where I can hit them and they cant hit me. I'll take that any day. Plus the CERLL and CLPL have exactly the same hit numbers at ranges 7 & 8 and 15 & 16 because thats a longer ranger bracket for the CLPL compared to the CERLL.

Same damage for both weapons and the CERLL is 4 tons compared to the CLPL. 1 of those extra tons goes to a DHS to compensate for the extra 2 heat from a CERLL and the other can go to armour or another weapon.

[Charistoph]

Except the CERPPC and CERLL have a longer range where I can hit them and they cant hit me. I'll take that any day. Plus the CERLL and CLPL have exactly the same hit numbers at ranges 7 & 8 and 15 & 16 because thats a longer ranger bracket for the CLPL compared to the CERLL.

Same damage for both weapons and the CERLL is 4 tons compared to the CLPL. 1 of those extra tons goes to a DHS to compensate for the extra 2 heat from a CERLL and the other can go to armour or another weapon.

I think you're overestimating the ability to hit something for the average pilot when the Range modifier is a cumulative +4 equivalent (as opposed to Pulse's +2).

[DevianID]

Yeah.  The Clan large pulse, when factoring in bonuses, has a +0 'short range' to 14 hexes, compared to the ER large at 8, and has a +2 'medium range' to 20, compared to the ER large at 15.  And the ER large has a 'long range' from 16-25, but with a +4 hit penalty unless you are firing at a stationary target with no cover, it takes 3 ER larges to get 1 hit when long range jousting.  So as long as the large pulse laser mech can move from 25 hexes to 20 hexes, in like 3 game turns, the Pulses will win in long range trades after maybe 5 game turns.  The ER Large just doesnt do any significant damage at range 21-25 that outweighs the damage the large pulse does at 20 and fewer hexes.  Kiting and playing the entire game at range 25 just isnt a thing--there are not enough turns in the average game to make it a viable strategy in a 2-3 hour game--the pulse lasers WILL close into range in any normal map circumstance.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Except the CERPPC and CERLL have a longer range where I can hit them and they cant hit me. I'll take that any day. Plus the CERLL and CLPL have exactly the same hit numbers at ranges 7 & 8 and 15 & 16 because thats a longer ranger bracket for the CLPL compared to the CERLL.

Same damage for both weapons and the CERLL is 4 tons compared to the CLPL. 1 of those extra tons goes to a DHS to compensate for the extra 2 heat from a CERLL and the other can go to armour or another weapon.

Only if the pilot have sniper SPA, or have about gunnery of 2+ to 1+. +4 modifier to to-hit roll generally means it is unlikely to hit anything, or sometimes it's literally does by reach to above 12+(13+ or more is always miss, you know). Only the hit does matters. Thounsands of lethal attacks that simply missed is not harmful at all, and only an attack that hits is far powerful than that. Well even at 12+ it's better than no attacks are allowed, though, but the distance that actually outranges LPL is not so long enough to actually have a meaningful outcome.

It would be not half bad to have some ERLL if you are about to making some trailers and fortifications that does not expected to move at all, howerver. For they won't suffer the to hit penalty on their own move and even if they are outranged by only a hex that surely results the opponent can freely shoot them to death without any chance of retaliation. But for any mobile platform, I doubt that CERLL outranges CLPL - and CLPL will effectively outranges CERLL, actually. Maybe there are some corner cases, such as VTOLs can shoot ERLL while circling the enemy or keep go backwards so leaves no chances to let them got caught within 20 hexes. But that would be the corner case.

An another possible situation is to employ C3 network, for in this case the other weapons will enjoy the better accuracy. Problem is LPL can enjoy the same benefit as well, and its range is not that short either. Not to mention that it only applies to either mixed tech or society units.

[Hellraiser]

and the other can go to armour or another weapon.

I would suggest when comparing accuracy that the best option for that ton is a TC.

Then your at least getting closer to actual #s for Tonnage Used v/s Accuracy

ERLL/DHS/TC
1-6 (-1),  7-8 (-1),  9-14 (+1),  15 (+1),  16-20  (+3),  21-25 (+3)

LPL
1-6 (-2),  7-8 (0),  9-14 (0),  15 (+2),  16-20 (+2),  21-25 (N/A)


ERLL Wins  (7,8,15,21-25)  8 Hexes   (3 by +1,  5 No Fire)
LPL Wins  (1-6, 9-14, 16-20)  17 Hexes by +1
TIE  (None)


The LPL doesn't win as a no return fire "sniping" weapon.
The LPL doesn't win as an "In your face" weapon.

But, as others have pointed out, the LPL shines in a "harass you from Medium/Long range trade fire" weapon.

That section of hexes from 9-20 is the sweet spot for the LPL.

The question then comes down to, can you keep the enemy in that sweet spot.
OR.
Do you find yourself swarmed by massed MLs inside your bracket or unable to return fire at all from 21+ hexes?

This is why LPLs aren't very useful on things like DireWolves/Warhawks even though some configs have lots of them.
They can't keep the range where they want it & the LPL isn't going to blow limbs off quite the way ERPPC/Gauss do & can't out range (ERLL) or stay out of LOS (LRMs) from you.

IMHO, It's very much at home on slower Clan Mediums (6/9) & Faster Clan Heavies (5/8), IE, Heavy Cavalry formations.
Stuff that I have no intention of "Parking" on a hill but also stuff that isn't made for being in the enemy rear area in 2 turns.

It's not about running away while shooting over its shoulder like a Viper-B is w/ that ERPPC on a rolling maps scenario.
It's about flanking at Medium/Long range to work the edges of the enemy &/or taking out their backstabbers as they dash forward looking for cover from the gunboats parked at the far side of the map.

Finally, as w/ all things BT,  the Terrain your in, mechs the gun is on, & skill of the player are likely more important than the stats of the weapon really.

[General308]

We used to "encourage" balanced forces but now our GM is setting up scenarios that pretty much demand it. Regardless of the BV, you'll always find a mix of weapons within my build. I'll almost always have at least one CLPL, some LRMs and an LBX-10. Everything else is a mix, depending on what I feel like playing and/or the scenario for the week. We're playing a scenario this week and I'll be defending a city. As such, I'm going to have more PL (Clan and IS) as I know the assaulting force is going to be full of jumpers.

Seems the GM should just not tell you what the senerio is going to be ahead of time hence encouraging eveyone to go back to balanced forces

[Charistoph]

Seems the GM should just not tell you what the senerio is going to be ahead of time hence encouraging eveyone to go back to balanced forces

Or set it up where bring Pulse Lasers is pretty much impossible.

[DevianID]

ERLL Wins  (7,8,15,21-25)  8 Hexes   (3 by +1,  5 No Fire)

The only issue I have with this is that while you are balancing by tonnage here, at 6 tons for 1 LPL or 6 tons for ER large, DHS, and Tcomp, the tcomp is not exclusive to the ER large, and tonnage isnt a good balancing metric.

The difference between 2 ER large with a tcomp and 24 HS at 12 tons, and 2 large pulse with a tcomp and 20 HS at 15 tons, is only 3 tons.  So pretty much every heavy+ omnimech can still fit the tcomp and take lots of LPL.

So while you show the ER Large winning at hexes 7,8,15, that is only because of the tcomp, which the LPL could also have for just a couple of tons.  And, if the ER large laser does get the tcomp and the LPL doesnt, the ER large now costs 310 BV compared to the LPL at 265.  So you pay 45 BV more with the ER large plus Tcomp, for a weapon combination that is worse-- 17 hexes versus 8

[truetanker]

My GM once set up a map from the S7 map pack, the Jungle, but added in several pieces of dubious nature. He photocopied some of the City maps and placed them in various places on it. So, we had a Jungle City fight with streets, houses and Municipal buildings as well as the actual map to deal with.

There were Infantry, Vehicles and Mechs defending this "Paradise". The kicker? He added a river portion wide enough to accommodate a pair of custom-built Monitors, paired AC/10's and LRM-5s on standard frames using the saved tonnages to mount them, the LRMs shared a Ammo ton from AC/20 replacement.

We were doing a Mission for "our" Stable on S7 on a back world for extra cash, I had just previously won the salvage rights against a Clan Stable the use of a Turkina C, complete with her technician and former pilot as "bondsman". Whatever that was... anyway. ( )

Yeah, I got the blunt of those two and even my cLPLs didn't do much damage, and I was a bog 4/5 at the time. I was rolling 8s and 9s, when i needed 10s and 11s. I tried to close in, but man, that terrain is brutal. And the weird part, was he got off 6 turns on most of us, the last 4 on me. And I was at 13 hexes out, trying to stay at a good place to minimize the returns and they kept hitting.

Of course, we were playing with the idea you need to have the Piloting skills to work it. You started off with medium weight of 4/5 and "pay" a Million per each level of weight. Or buy it with 4 kills in it like normal. So yeah, I was on my 2nd Kill...

It went 4/5 Medium, +1 each per weight up and -1 each per weight down. On top of your current standard medium weight skill. So if you were a 3/5 in medium, you became a 2/4 in lights, but a 4/6 in heavies and so on.

TT

[Hellraiser]

--the pulse lasers WILL close into range in any normal map circumstance.

The only issue I have with this is that while you are balancing by tonnage here, at 6 tons for 1 LPL or 6 tons for ER large, DHS, and Tcomp, the tcomp is not exclusive to the ER large, and tonnage isnt a good balancing metric.

So while you show the ER Large winning at hexes 7,8,15, that is only because of the tcomp, which the LPL could also have for just a couple of tons.  And, if the ER large laser does get the tcomp and the LPL doesnt, the ER large now costs 310 BV compared to the LPL at 265.  So you pay 45 BV more with the ER large plus Tcomp, for a weapon combination that is worse-- 17 hexes versus 8

I feel like your not seeing my previous posts.

1.  Way up above I pointed out that the LPL isn't nearly as nasty IMHO as the MPL it was responded that this discussion is about long range sniping so your point about closing the distance which I happen to agree with, to the point of saying that neither the ERLL or LPL are the scary guns here, is moot according to others.

2.  I was responding to someone pointing out that the ERLL is only 4 tons so it doesn't really matter if you can stick a TC onto an LPL at that point your now dealing w/ 8 tons in a tonnage scenario & while tonnage isn't how most games are balanced it has to come into play if your discussing "best whatever" since part of that is how many of them your getting or what it costs you to get said uber-gun.

3.  I'm aware the BV isn't going to match, I'm also aware that BV is broken when it comes to "To-Hit" Mods in general.
If the BV was fixed then maybe the LPL wouldn't be so attractive.
But really, I'd still go back to #1 above & use close range weapons for less BV.
Heck, for 6 tons if I already have 10 DHS & can vent 20, I think I'd like to spend my 6 tons on 6 OG Medium Lasers & spam 30 damage a turn.

The point of this is that the Clan LPL is a solid generalist ranged gun.  But its not a boogey man "I win" button of a weapon.
It's "Heavy" for its damage & short ranged compared to most other sniper weapons, but it is accurate so that counts for a lot.
But in the typical BT game your likely to be operating at ranges where MLs of all types will get you better results.
And if you happen to be on a particularly large map there are other guns that out range it or don't need LOS.

The LPL excels in the 9-20 hex bracket where it manages to be quite a bit more accurate than the LRM/ERLL/ERPPC/Gauss but isn't outside of its own range while being at the limits of ML fire.
If you can keep your entire force in that 12 hex range band then it shines.   Closer or Farther & its not so ideal.

[DevianID]

The LPL vs MPL comes down to unit speed.  The issue with the LPL is that because it has good range, it is useful on slow mechs or fast mechs... its just always useful.  I agree with you that you can close the distance with long ranged mechs most of the time to bring mediums to bear, but in the case of the LPL you are consistently causing knockdowns and kill shots in just 1-2 turns if the enemy doesnt rush you.  The 4 ER large laser novacat, which is a great mech too, doesnt wrack up damage as fast as the 4 pulse laser rifleman, and when the enemy is point blank with speedy units the ER larges are still missing more then large pulse lasers.

I like MPLs better too, but the Rifleman IIC with 4 LPL allows me to be lazy, and just sit in heavy woods and blast away.  The MPLs on the Blackhawk/Nova S require me to move around a lot more, perhaps crossing a nomansland where the trees have been cleared, or exposing it to shorter range return fire or higher attacker movement modifiers.  So while the Nova S is a favorite mech of mine, the Rifleman IIC was so brainless it gets better results overall.  Fewer movement mistakes, and it has the range to force the enemy to close because they cant win ranged exchanges.

Thats usually why people tend to not mind inner sphere pulse lasers.  They are only scary on units with mobility.  The Wolverine 7k, or Wraith, make good use of the shorter ranged pulse, but the 4x pulse laser Marauder is less useful with the lower speed.  The 4 pulse marauder is still a good mech, but its harder to play then something with more speed like the wolverine or range like the clan pulse.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well, compare LPL and MPL on here is like as discuss which is the better candinate for your army's standard sniper rifle, M4 versus M24. Good rate of fire(read; better damage per tonnage) doesn't matters and is disqualified as soon as it doesn't meet the required effective range. It does not means Clans MPL is not broken either, but both have the different job to do.

---------------------------

Also, while some weapons are outranges Clans LPL on paper, but are those weapons can hit anything on this 'outranged' distance? Unless the said unit is commanded by exceptionally good pilot? If they cannot hit anything while 'outranges' Clans LPL, then those are not actually outranges it at all.

[OatsAndHall]

Seems the GM should just not tell you what the senerio is going to be ahead of time hence encouraging eveyone to go back to balanced forces

He'll lay out the scenario but we roll to determine who plays what side of said-scenario. Depending on the dice roll, we may be defending a city or we may be attacking.

[Son of Kerenski]

Only if the pilot have sniper SPA, or have about gunnery of 2+ to 1+. +4 modifier to to-hit roll generally means it is unlikely to hit anything, or sometimes it's literally does by reach to above 12+(13+ or more is always miss, you know). Only the hit does matters. Thounsands of lethal attacks that simply missed is not harmful at all, and only an attack that hits is far powerful than that.

It sounds like you havent done the math. Gunnery 4 with CLPL at ranges 7-8 is a base 4 to hit before other factors (Pulse cancels out Med range). CLERLL at that range with Gunnery 4 is also a base 4 to hit before other factors. Exact same numbers. Will also be same numbers for both pilots (6 to hit) at range 15.

Well even at 12+ it's better than no attacks are allowed, though, but the distance that actually outranges LPL is not so long enough to actually have a meaningful outcome.

Had a tournament once where opponent parked his Rifleman IIC on a hill behind cover. And I knew he would make a beeline for that spot.

So I parked my entire force at 24 hexes which added up to be 6 CERLL's & some clusters which had 8 & 9's to hit first round and 7's and 8's following round. Did a stack of torso damage I took off one of his arms, and reduced his firepower to half (blew one of his arms off) before he was able to eventually return fire from abandoning his sniper spot (took 2 rounds to move 4 hexes as there was a sloping hill the other side).

I tend not to point out tactical advantages without having tried them in actual combat.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

It sounds like you havent done the math. Gunnery 4 with CLPL at ranges 7-8 is a base 4 to hit before other factors (Pulse cancels out Med range). CLERLL at that range with Gunnery 4 is also a base 4 to hit before other factors. Exact same numbers. Will also be same numbers for both pilots (6 to hit) at range 15.

That proves that it is I actually did math about this. You should continue the calculations and end the formula, rather than stop at the middle of the line and says that it's done.

For a gunnery 4+ pilot, with long range bracket penalty of +4 the pilot should have a 8+ to hit, sure. If that is nothing but target practice. The movement of both the attacker and the target is what you should consider. Even if the said pilot only use walk/cruise move, the difficulty is increased to 9+. That means, to hit modifier by the movement is +3 it means it's 12+, and +4 or more means the pilot is not able to hit the target at all. It is not something you rarely see, for +3 is only acquired by running/flanking move of 7+ or jump/airborne movement of 5+, that is even the heavy mechs/vehicles are able to reach without much problem - not to mention that even a 100 tonner mech can do this too, for they can use improved jump jet. And it's before think about the other factors such as cover, the attacker makes run or even jump. Even on the plain ground without any cover, that's the actual result of aiming against long range bracket.


Also you have an error on your math - while you did said 'cancels out' the pulse bonus on medium range, you did not puts the same penalty for the medium range either. Actually, only on 15 hexes it is true that those are all the same, sure, for it's the long range of CLPL and is the end of the medium range of CERLL. But that's only true at just 15 hex. On 16~20, CLPL have same difficulty to hit while CERLL suffers +2 to the difficulty, and on 14 or less hex, it's the medium range of CLPL. On 21+, either sides are unlikely to hit the adversary anyways, due to either out of range or have too much TMM to actually score a hit.

If two weapons are have the same chance to hit on a specific one point of range but on the other ranges one is always inferior to the other, then I don't think that 'one' have any advantage over 'the other'.

Had a tournament once where opponent parked his Rifleman IIC on a hill behind cover. And I knew he would make a beeline for that spot.

So I parked my entire force at 24 hexes which added up to be 6 CERLL's & some clusters which had 8 & 9's to hit first round and 7's and 8's following round. Did a stack of torso damage I took off one of his arms, and reduced his firepower to half (blew one of his arms off) before he was able to eventually return fire from abandoning his sniper spot (took 2 rounds to move 4 hexes as there was a sloping hill the other side).

I tend not to point out tactical advantages without having tried them in actual combat.

How it is possible to only need mere 8+ to 9+ to hit with those? Didn't either sides have moved their units?