Zell during Revival

[marauder648]

My question here is, how long did it last?

Whilst the Clans would try to stick to Zell to a greater or lesser degree depending on who they were, did they cling onto it during REVIVAL even when the Inner Sphere military seems to have generally not wanted to play by the Clan's rules?

[Mendrugo]

It varied Clan by Clan. 

In the Tukayyid scenario pack, it specified Level 1 (all honor, all the time), Level 2 (Honor until the ComGuards violate zell, the all bets are off), Level 3 (any violation of Clan rules allows the end of zell), and Level 4 (Zell?  What zell?).

Tukayyid p. 20 says that Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon forbade batchalls on Tukayyid, but the other Clans continued to issue batchalls and bid away their troops.

Smoke Jaguars:  Started Level 1, rose to Level 3 at the Dinju Pass.
Nova Cats:  Level 1 throughout
Ghost Bears: Started Level 1, but went to Level 3-4 at Spanac
Jade Falcons: Level 4 throughout
Diamond Sharks:  Started Level 1, rose to Level 2 at the Kozice Valley and then Level 4 at the last stand in Kozice Valley.
Steel Vipers: Level 1 at the Devil's Bath, Level 4 when their drop zone was being overrun and Level 4 during the second Devil's Bath battle and in Kozice Valley.
Clan Wolf: Level 4 throughout.

[SteveRestless]

One thing to keep in mind is that Fighting Honorably is often not about your foe, but about your own honor. It may have been less about what the spheroid barbarians were doing, and more about not wanting to debase themselves by engaging in the same.

[Orwell84]

From skim reading Invading Clans:

After the Black Omens' and Regal Death's dishonorable conduct on Damien and Susquehanna - they agreed to a batchall and then used traps, ambushes and the like - many Ghost Bear commanders declared all mercenary forces dezgra. In the fifth wave the Bear Khans gave their subordinates the option of discarding bidding and batchalls, depending on the opposition's perceived honor level. After Alshain Khan Jorgensson finally ordered zell scrapped entirely for the remainder of the invasion.

The Smoke Jaguars appear to have honored zell by default, but were quick to abandon it on the numerous occasions that their enemies were seen, rightly or wrongly, to have behaved dishonorably.

The Steel Vipers aren't explicitly mentioned as abandoning zell but they utilized the Coil tactic, which involves surrounding and crushing an enemy unit by constantly moving and shifting fire from enemy to enemy. As such the Coil was only used against Spheroid and other dezgra opponents.

The Nova Cats would fight Combine troops by Clan rules if the DC soldiers also observed them, but they didn't balk at abandoning zell if their opponents proved dishonorable. They also made frequent use of headhunter units to attack DCMS headquarters.

[marauder648]

Cheers folks :) All useful stuff :)

[Sartris]

TW has a chart in the creating scenarios section that also provides a general clan attitude toward zell

[massey]

My own opinion, which is somewhat supported by various sources, is that Zell is better described as glory rather than honor.  It isn't about living up to some deeply held personal code -- it's about pounding your chest and saying "I'm bad!"

You abide by Zell because you're basically showing off.  You can win these ritual duels and thus prove that you're worthy of passing on your genetic material.  Reproductive success is tied to having success in battle according to the code.  It's a bit like a peacock's feathers -- the guy with the best victories has the best plumage and gets to pass on his genes.

With Revival, there's a conflict within the Clans, particularly the more militant ones (I'm looking at you, Jags).  On the one hand, they want to win the war.  On the other hand, the entire premise for the Invasion is that the Inner Sphere is unworthy.  Remember, Zell is not about treating the enemy honorably -- it isn't chivalry.  Zell is about proving you are the best.  If the IS is inferior, you should be able to beat them while handicapping yourself.

The Clans know that the Inner Sphere isn't going to follow Zell.  Ideally they want to follow it anyway because it provides the justification for the war.  It would be philosophical proof that the Clan way is better.  "We fought with one hand tied behind our backs and we still won."  For groups like the Jaguars (as well as the newcomers like the Nova Cats and Steel Vipers, who haven't really had a chance to adjust to the IS yet), that's really important to them.  For them to abandon Zell, they basically have to think of you as Dezgra, utter dirtballs who just deserve extermination.

The Falcons and the Wolves have always been more pragmatic.  Screw honor, they want to win.  When push comes to shove, they're willing to do whatever it takes.  In the last Aidan Pryde book, he even comments on how the Jade Falcon leadership has set aside bidding for the attack on Tukayyid.  He thinks it's very unClan-like, and wonders if the Inner Sphere isn't corrupting the Clans themselves.

[Orwell84]

My own opinion, which is somewhat supported by various sources, is that Zell is better described as glory rather than honor.  It isn't about living up to some deeply held personal code -- it's about pounding your chest and saying "I'm bad!"

You abide by Zell because you're basically showing off.  You can win these ritual duels and thus prove that you're worthy of passing on your genetic material.  Reproductive success is tied to having success in battle according to the code.  It's a bit like a peacock's feathers -- the guy with the best victories has the best plumage and gets to pass on his genes.

Possibly it comes down to an individual warrior whether zell is more about honor or glory, or if both motives are simultaneously felt. IIRC some Clan warriors do genuinely view it as an honor code to be adhered to whenever possible. Others pay lip service to zell as an honor path while in fact seeking bragging rights. Hardline Crusaders in particular seem to fall within the latter category, genuinely committed Wardens tend towards the former.