Author Topic: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?  (Read 12143 times)

Icerose20

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #30 on: 01 October 2018, 00:00:19 »
Many Capellans lost their lives for that problem to be solved.  :)

The planetary drive/sub-drive should not have been the last problem they had to solve.  If they said that it was the compact KF drive, then this discussion would be moot.  That would have been what I would have thought the problem was. 

A couple of one off miniWarships mentioned, with the losses of life bring the tech to fruition would have made the almost sudden appearance of the Fox, Kyushu and others more believable, IMO. 

Charistoph

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #31 on: 01 October 2018, 10:27:32 »
The planetary drive/sub-drive should not have been the last problem they had to solve.  If they said that it was the compact KF drive, then this discussion would be moot.  That would have been what I would have thought the problem was. 

If it the last one addressed, after everything else, why would it be so hard to believe?

Sometimes it is not the difficulty of the situation, but the when you address it which makes the stage of development last.  The Me 262 went through development hell, but not because of any technical problems, but its mission kept getting changed so often that they could never be made in sufficient numbers to make a difference in the war.
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skiltao

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #32 on: 03 October 2018, 12:06:16 »
There's also the question of how proficient the Inner Sphere actually was in the construction of Mammoth and Behemoth drives. Back in 3025 (the old DropShips and JumpShips fluff), the engines on even the Excalibur and Fortress were lostech.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #33 on: 03 October 2018, 15:59:32 »
True, but the Behemoth was still being built, so they couldn't have been all that non-proficient...

Alexander Knight

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #34 on: 03 October 2018, 18:23:34 »
Sigh.  Real-world example time.

Air-cooled vs liquid-cooled engines.  They can both push the same mass at the same speed.  They are,however, different designs and you cannot simply expect to use one in place of the other without serious redesign of the vehicle.

In the same vein, Dropship engines are not the same as Warship engines.  You cannot take a Behemoth's drive system and slap it onto a 100 kTon Warship and expect it to work.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #35 on: 03 October 2018, 20:16:47 »
Except that's not what they were doing... They were building new ships de novo.  There's no reason they couldn't build the front end on top of the back end of the Behemoth.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #36 on: 03 October 2018, 20:57:48 »
Yeah, Alexander Knight, unless you're proposing that Behemoths can't operate in space(?), that point issue was already addressed up thread.

True, but the Behemoth was still being built, so they couldn't have been all that non-proficient...

This is BattleTech, man. Proficient enough to preserve and operate a mysterious lostech automated factory != proficient enough to alter their automated processes.
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Jellico

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #37 on: 04 October 2018, 00:52:56 »
Royals Royce Merlin vs Meteor  ;)

Euphonium

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #38 on: 05 October 2018, 18:19:45 »
Royals Royce Merlin vs Meteor  ;)

You're referring to the 1,000+hp aero engine vs the same engine adapted as a ~600hp tank engine?
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #39 on: 06 October 2018, 10:48:06 »
Except that's not what they were doing... They were building new ships de novo.  There's no reason they couldn't build the front end on top of the back end of the Behemoth.

Capital-scale weapons require bracing in the form of a keel that can only be done with something like a KF core.  If you have a KF core, you use Warship-grade maneuver drives, not Behemoth drives.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #40 on: 06 October 2018, 13:11:46 »
I have a lot of questions, foremost being, what in the lore makes you think a KF core requires maneuver drives different than can be had from existing large dropships or jumpships?
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idea weenie

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #41 on: 06 October 2018, 13:52:51 »
I have a lot of questions, foremost being, what in the lore makes you think a KF core requires maneuver drives different than can be had from existing large dropships or jumpships?

Dropship drives can have their internal parts be put almost anywhere in the center of the ship as you need.  Warship drives need to physically fit around the KF core, and the KF core has to be designed to encompass the entire Warship drive when the ship jumps.

So you could have a prototype warship with a Behemoth Dropship drive slapped onto a compact KF core, but after jump you realize that the outer parts of the engine bells weren't brought along.  Time for a redesign

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #42 on: 06 October 2018, 14:07:40 »
DropShip engines are almost uniformly located on the bottom of the ship, just as WarShip engines are; their internal components don't run up the center of the ship where the KF drive would be; a cluster of DropShip engines wouldn't have to be centerlined anymore than WarShip engines are, which doesn't matter anyway because getting a KF field to wrap around every fin, flange and nozzle is the same problem (with the same solution) no matter what kind of engines you're using or where you put them.
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Alexander Knight

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #43 on: 06 October 2018, 14:32:31 »
I have a lot of questions, foremost being, what in the lore makes you think a KF core requires maneuver drives different than can be had from existing large dropships or jumpships?

Be....cause the tonnage for a 100 Kton Warship's maneuver drive and a 100 Kton Dropship's maneuver drive are not the same?

Daryk

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #44 on: 06 October 2018, 14:44:00 »
Those are indeed the rules (which factor in game balance and such).  Not necessarily what we're discussing here...

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #45 on: 06 October 2018, 16:29:04 »
Be....cause the tonnage for a 100 Kton Warship's maneuver drive and a 100 Kton Dropship's maneuver drive are not the same?

Physics doesn't particularly care as long as it provides the appropriate amount of thrust.

That's really the problem with trying to compare them using real world aircraft engines and the like. It's a completely different environment with much simpler requirements for getting the thing moving. There shouldn't be any particularly good reason why a physically impossible fusion torch able to push a hundred thousand tons of spacecraft at one gravity of acceleration in space couldn't do the same to another hundred thousand ton spacecraft arranged in a different configuration. "Because they're not the same" isn't much of an argument.

I mean, heck, if we're going by what the rules say, the behemoth drive might be even harder to build than the warship drive, since the dropship engine is more fuel efficient (8.83 tons per burn day vs 19.75 in strategic mode) and the rules presume a dropship is able to operate in an atmosphere. All dropships use the same engine equation and the Behemoth's thrust only prohibits it from landing in standard gravity, and the specific prohibition against atmospheric operations is an optional design quirk, not an automatic rule.

Now I'm not saying warships should get dropship engines. The design rules are broken enough as it is. But from a purely fluff standpoint, there's no reasonable reason a behemoth's transit drive couldn't serve as a decent starting point for developing a slightly simpler transit drive for a similarly sized warships. "It doesn't work because reasons" isn't much of an argument.

Truth is, the writers wanted to create a limitation and didn't think too hard about it. A better option might have been having problems producing a structurally stable design of that size able to handle such high acceleration (Dropships and Jumpships tells us the Behemoth is prone to structural problems above one G of acceleration due to its great size, a nice starting point), possibly magnified by the need to keep a long, thin germanium core intact, requiring engineering assistance from Comstar/the Word of Blake.

However, "they needed transit drives from comstar" is the reason we got, so we're stuck with it. With that in mind, I'd probably go with saying the behemoth drive didn't provide the power they wanted for the hulls they wanted to build, and they were too much of a hurry to put the work into developing a bigger drive. They needed to close the warship gap.

Sure, a hundred thousand ton vessel tooling around with a behemoth drive might have gotten a ship in the field faster, but nations don't just build things based on pure logic (in fact, pure logic is historically in critically short supply). They've gotta sell their leaders (most of whom have no naval background whatsoever but who decide where the money goes) and their public (most of whom have even less) the idea of the ship. That this is something that will protect their people from another Turtle Bay, or Turtle Bay the hell out of their enemies, and that the compromises they make are worth when these ships might find themselves running up against ships many, many, many times their size (if not necessarily their raw capabilities).

Hell, I still remember Davion fans complaining about how House Davion was stuck with a bunch of Foxes for a lot of their fleet, even though the Fox is arguable the most sensible "starter design" out of all of the Inner Sphere's warships. Imagine that, but they're the nobility who holds the purse strings or think they can lobby your perceived "foolish endeavors" into additional political power.

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Maingunnery

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #46 on: 06 October 2018, 17:06:37 »

What about the power draw of Capital Energy weapons?
DropShips engines can't handle that.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #47 on: 06 October 2018, 17:12:39 »
What about the power draw of Capital Energy weapons?
DropShips engines can't handle that.

That seems more like a question of power distribution systems. It's hard to imagine a fusion plant unable to meet the energy demands of capital energy weapons when it's able to meet the demands of that horrifyingly powerful particle cannon it uses for thrust.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #48 on: 06 October 2018, 17:27:27 »
That seems more like a question of power distribution systems. It's hard to imagine a fusion plant unable to meet the energy demands of capital energy weapons when it's able to meet the demands of that horrifyingly powerful particle cannon it uses for thrust.
Thrust does not equal electricity..... sadly
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skiltao

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #49 on: 06 October 2018, 17:40:22 »
Be....cause the tonnage for a 100 Kton Warship's maneuver drive and a 100 Kton Dropship's maneuver drive are not the same?

Which means exactly nothing. All kinds of heavy equipment get glossed over in the construction rules (landing gear, the Monolith's grappling arms, the Mammoth's detachable engine mounts) so you can't just assume that the weight difference is due to the engines themselves.

Additionally, irrespective of the issue above, the fact that the rules apply different engine types to different unit types does not imply that kind innate incompatibility. (See Inner Sphere 'Mechs using Clan engines, industrial 'Mechs and BattleMech chassis using engines or other equipment nominally restricted to each other, and so on.)

Finally, I did also ask why maneuvering drives from standard JumpShips couldn't be adapted.

Truth is, the writers wanted to create a limitation and didn't think too hard about it.

Strongly disagree. If it wasn't the engines, then there's nothing to stop the Houses from (for instance) bolting giant engines on a Merchant class and bolting weapons platforms on in place of the two collars.

What about the power draw of Capital Energy weapons?
DropShips engines can't handle that.

Secondary power plant, represented by the mass difference AK cited?
« Last Edit: 06 October 2018, 17:53:18 by skiltao »
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Icerose20

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #50 on: 06 October 2018, 17:54:25 »
At the end of the day, period, era; you could say the Federated Commonwealth, Draconis Combine and the Free Worlds League leadership didn't see the pressing need for the Big Warship till the Clan Invasion and Turtle Bay.  And the 3040s was seeing everywhere the lostech and other technologies coming into fruition, so its possible and doable for these nations to invest in it.  In my head, Hanse, Theodore, and Thomas were all trying to do the same thing, get the kinks out as secretly as possible and try to keep the others from finding out. 

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #51 on: 06 October 2018, 18:40:33 »
Thrust does not equal electricity..... sadly

But electricity equals electricity. Fusing hydrogen and accelerating it to literally impossible speeds isn't exactly a low power operation.

Strongly disagree. If it wasn't the engines, then there's nothing to stop the Houses from (for instance) bolting giant engines on a Merchant class and bolting weapons platforms on in place of the two collars.

Except the structure of the merchant. It can't handle the thrust. Mechanically, it struggles to handle any amount of thrust over half a G, and will rapidly cease to function (though you can't normally get one accelerating that quickly, it has a structural integrity of 1, and any vessel who spends more thrust points than their structural integrity must make a control roll or take structural damage, which would kill the jumpship). It's one thing to have the thrust to push things around, its another entirely for that thing to handle the stress of maneuvering.

The behemoth has a higher thrust capacity than any conventional jumpship in service (three thrust points for a hundred thousand ton vessel vs a tenth of a thrust point for a hypothetical max size conventional jumpship), and the original fluff indicates it has structural problems when it spends too much time using all that thrust.

Secondary power plant, represented by the mass difference AK cited?

The mass difference is in the warship's favor. Dropship transit drives require more mass than Warship drives.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #52 on: 06 October 2018, 19:13:20 »
But electricity equals electricity. Fusing hydrogen and accelerating it to literally impossible speeds isn't exactly a low power operation.
The cores of Fusion reactors produce plasma/radiation, the rest of the power plant is likely divided between electricity conversion or plasma redirection into thrust. Having a process of: "plasma->electricity->plasma->thrust" makes no sense.   

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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #53 on: 06 October 2018, 19:50:50 »
The cores of Fusion reactors produce plasma/radiation, the rest of the power plant is likely divided between electricity conversion or plasma redirection into thrust. Having a process of: "plasma->electricity->plasma->thrust" makes no sense.   

I fail to see how this is supposed to address the insane amounts of power available to the fusion plant, or how it would make a slightly larger drive from an equivalent dropship unable to power the same weapons. The fact that both are able to generate the same literally magical amount of thrust through the same method (strategic operations indicates they operate under the same principles) means they would also be able to provide the same amount of electrical power.

HOWEVER!

One thing that I think is important to note is that the Behemoth we're talking about (and the Castrum we've all been classy enough not to mention) is an outlier. It's at the uppermost edge of the dropship construction rules, and the edges of the spacecraft rules are where a lot of the flaws really stand out. Not only does the behemoth provide warship level thrust with superior fuel efficiency but an unexplained inability to use capital weapons, but its structural integrity of 30 is less resistant to damage than a warship of the same mass with the same SI, despite being just as resistant to acceleration and being five times heavier.  :D Also, the heatsinks are calculated differently, the control deck is heavier, and the ship has a hard maximum on armor levels based on SI, while the warship's armor limit is based on structure mass, and thus scales up as the ships get bigger.

So, from a fluffy standpoint, the Behemoth raises these questions of "but why can't you just..."  but from a crunchy standpoint, the real problem is that the dropship rules probably shouldn't be used to make ships this big so the questions never come up in the first place. If it were up to me, I'd strike the Behemoth and Castrum from the universe and limit dropships to fifty thousand tons.

(Actually, if it were up to me, I'd rebuild the construction rules from the ground up as a unified system that handles all types of large spacecraft, rather than different systems awkwardly cobbled together from three or four generations of radically different rulesets)
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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glitterboy2098

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #54 on: 06 October 2018, 19:57:36 »
the difference in mass might be just landing gear and minor atmosphere proofing. but the warship using more fuel suggests that its engine runs at a higher output (using more fuel per second), which in turn would suggest that its reactors would require specialized design and more exotic materials to handle the extra power density and stronger reaction. higher output due to greater fusion reactant density would certainly help explain why warships can mount full naval weapons but dropships can't.


skiltao

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #55 on: 06 October 2018, 20:06:25 »
Doesn't the difference in fuel usage come down to the 100kton DropShip sitting at the top of a generalized band and the 100kton WarShip sitting at the bottom of its band?

The mass difference is in the warship's favor. Dropship transit drives require more mass than Warship drives.

So... there's no basis in lore for claiming DropShip engines can't power capital weapons, and no basis in construction tonnage either. I'm fine with that.

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It's one thing to have the thrust to push things around, its another entirely for that thing to handle the stress of maneuvering.

I'll agree that the Successor States clearly have trouble with large space construction of any kind, whether it's the hull or engines or both.

I would argue though that the JumpShip's SI value represents a combination of factors and (if we're talking engineering rather than rules) doesn't necessarily scale with how much forward acceleration it can handle. We do have precedent (in the original Cameron BattleCruiser fluff) for small ships being fitted with more powerful engines, and we can at least bring a Scout class close to 1G of thrust without passing the Behemoth's safe limits.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #56 on: 06 October 2018, 20:13:03 »
Doesn't the difference in fuel usage come down to the 100kton DropShip sitting at the top of a generalized band and the 100kton WarShip sitting at the bottom of its band?

Partly, but even if the warship got to use the lower band, it'd still be slightly less fuel efficient.

And it would be so much worse if the behemoth happened to be a military craft.

So... there's no basis in lore for claiming DropShip engines can't power capital weapons, and no basis in construction tonnage either. I'm fine with that.

I pretty much am too. I'm content to tell myself not to look too closely at it.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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skiltao

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #57 on: 06 October 2018, 20:15:01 »
My sentiment is for unified construction rules as well.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #58 on: 06 October 2018, 21:44:21 »
Amen to that!

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #59 on: 07 October 2018, 02:35:46 »
I fail to see how this is supposed to address the insane amounts of power available to the fusion plant, or how it would make a slightly larger drive from an equivalent dropship unable to power the same weapons. The fact that both are able to generate the same literally magical amount of thrust through the same method (strategic operations indicates they operate under the same principles) means they would also be able to provide the same amount of electrical power.
The physical mechanism of which thrust is gained is different then that of electricity. To have WarShip levels of electric power one should have the high capacity energy conversion
See it like having a heat source and using it to heat up a green house, it can be done directly using circulating heat or converting the heat to electricity and back again (with the associated conversion losses). Using reactor plasma for thrust is very direct, but to get electricity will require some conversion.


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If it were up to me, I'd strike the Behemoth and Castrum from the universe and limit dropships to fifty thousand tons.
They can be redesigned to 50kt, the functionality losses aren't that big, and it would make the line-up of all dropships more sensible.
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