BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Articles => Topic started by: JadeHellbringer on 06 August 2019, 10:56:06
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(http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/9/9d/3025_Blackjack1.jpg?timestamp=20130421083052)(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-9YGKFdP6sY/hqdefault.jpg)
(http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/4/40/CCG_Crusade_Blackjack.jpg?timestamp=20100627164559)(http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/9/9d/CCG_Counterstrike_Blackjack.jpg?timestamp=20100629004559)(http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/0/06/CCG_Unlimited_Blackjack.jpg?timestamp=20100702174848)
Ugh, even the artwork is sad. So many lost limbs...
Some Mechs simply earn the term 'legend' from the moment the prototype walks off the test room floor for the first time. Hallowed machines with great abilities and (eventually) extensive combat records to cause their names to be spoken in hushed tones over drinks for centuries to come. Marauder. Archer. Mad Cat. Atlas. Targe. The list goes on. Others may not have seemed like much when devised, but have earned a name for themselves with tough fighting over the years, like the Centurion, the Vulture, the Valkyrie.
And sometimes you get a machine that no matter how hard it gets used, it just never really earns the respect it probably deserves. Today we'll look at one of them and see if it's as bad as its reputation traditionally claims it to be, the Blackjack.
Now, first thing's first. This article will cover the Blackjack, but NOT the BJ-2O Omnimech version that debuted in the late 3050s. That machine is different enough (and has enough configurations) to warrant its own article, one of which I believe is still in the archives here. This is going to go long anyway, people, adding a whole different Mech and over half a dozen Omni variants won't help that cause. If you need to find info on the Omnimech, it won't be here.
That aside, what we do have here is a fairly homely little 45-ton machine designed in theory as a fire support unit. The BJ-1 is one of those ideas that works really well in the imagination of a Battletech fan, standing tall over a battlefield and chattering autocannon fire down into the grueling front lines, but in gameplay... Well, more on that later. The 180-rated power plant provides a stately 4/6 movement speed, abysmally slow compared to similar-sized machines like the Phoenix Hawk, but leaving lots of room for other equipment. The addition of four jump jets means the Blackjack can scale hills and such quickly to gain good firing positions, always a good thing in a fire support unit (see: Catapult), and just as importantly be able to hop away to safety if its position is threatened. So long as you don't use it to chase down the enemy, 4/6/4 is fine for a machine in this role.
The armor is remarkably tough little shell, far more capable of protecting the Mech than one might expect. A PPC won't break the armor on any limb or front torso location- they'll all even still have a little left over. That's handy, particularly since the intended use of a Blackjack is to hang back away from where most weapons will reliably reach in reply anyway- so it won't take much fire to begin with, and what it does see, it can survive. One can't ask for more than that.
Well, actually they can, because when we reach the weapon loadout we find there's a problem. The AC/2 is a neat idea in theory- a small, rapidly-chattering cannon roaring at its target, peppering them with a stream of shells at ranges they can barely see the attacker at... but, if you've ever played Battletech, you're probably aware of how underwhelming this thing really is. Two points of damage. TWO. There's good sides- yes, the range is ludicrous, longer than any other non-artillery weapon in its day, so you really can keep someone under harassing fire at a point where they can't really respond. And at 45 rounds per ton of ammo, you can afford to take wild shots all you like. But at the end of the day, the Blackjack invested twelve tons of a 45-ton Mech (plus one more ton for ammo) into two 2-point hits per turn. There's no way to make that look good, people- if you're using a Blackjack as your fire support, your opponent is going to enjoy his open-field advance. Luckily, in-close the Blackjack tacks on four medium lasers, mounted coaxial with the cannons. That's a solid mid-to-short range punch, though heat gets a little dicey if you use all four and move. The Mech does include an extra heat sink in addition to the ten in the engine as-standard, but repeated use of the lasers (particularly if the jump jets are used as well) can make things a little roasty. Luckily, there's no reason to worry about heat on a Blackjack, other than the AC/2 ammunition parked in the center tors... hmmmm. Do you owe money to one of your Mechwarriors? Put him in a BJ-1 and watch your money troubles vanish.
Now, remember that I said the Blackjack wasn't viewed well by the Inner Sphere's militaries? Yeah, that's because it sucks. But following a victory by the FedSuns over the DCMS on Xhosha VII in 3022, the FedSuns began looking closer at the Blackjack. Can't imagine why- with two autocannons, one expects Hanse had a poster of one on his bedroom ceiling to begin with. But, this victory prompted the Davions to begin tinkering with their Blackjacks, and the results were... interesting. The first is the BJ-1DC, which drops the jump jets (hmmm) to gain a pair of small lasers and a heat sink. If you're turning your screen sideways to see the hidden genius in doing this, let me save you the trouble- if you owe one of your Mechwarriors a LOT of money, put them in this lemon. There's no good rationale for this thing, period- the added heat dissipation isn't bad, but the loss of the jump jets is crippling, and the addition of small lasers is just bizarre- if your Blackjack is in small laser range, things have gone pear-shaped and those lasers aren't going to save you, particularly since you can't jump away from danger anymore.
Davion's next experiment is slightly less get-drunk-worthy. BJ-1DB removes the autocannons, to the surprise of Davion techs everywhere, and tacks on a pair of large lasers in their place. Marik fans are fanning themselves. To accomplish this, the AC/2s, their ammo, a ton of armor, and two of the medium lasers are all sacrificed. That allows for more heat sinks, because oh man do you need them now. Surprisingly, firing both heavy lasers and walking produces zero heat, a rarity in this era (and thus making it a pretty nice Mech to teach new players on, hi, people who just bought the box set!) Luckily, the torso bomb is gone at least. If you have to use a Blackjack in the 4th SW era, this is a good choice- it isn't really fire support anymore, but it proves remarkably handy as an urban warfare machine (hop in, fire, hop away).
Likely extinct by the time the 1st Succession War began, by the way, was a prototype model that seems so different that it hardly registers as the same design. The BJ-1X has a much larger 225-rated engine for a 5/8 movement, but no jump jets. The cannons are gone, in favor of a pair of flamers. Which... the damage is the same, but the range is absurdly cut down. But, you have more speed to advance on your target, and infantry are best served medium-well. A few extra heat sinks round out this oddball, but chances are 1) you'll never see one and 2) if you do, you won't really care. If you want something that zips around lighting things on fire, get a Firestarter.
The final variant in the 4th Succession War has a murky history. It's the BJ-3 (why?), produced by the Capellan Confederation as they fought off the FedSuns hordes. The most notable change is the swapping of the autocannons for a pair of Ceres PPCs. Good lord- that's neat and all, but your pilot will look like a creme brulee by the time... wait. Double heat sinks? In THIS era? Yes Virginia, the Cappies had acquired some spiffy new tech from the past, by way of questionable methods (one suspects the Steiners and Davions should check their inventories...) The Mech is a remarkable one, then, for a couple of reasons- first, because it's the first Mech in a few hundred years to use double heat sinks in its construction rather than one-off field mods and the like. And second because it's remarkably GOOD. I mean, it runs warm if you're not careful obviously, particularly since the extra heat sink from earlier models was removed (along with the ammo bin) to make up the extra weight of the new guns, but as a bracket-fire machine this is superb for its era. St. ives ended up with most of these machines postwar, and continued to build the variant afterwards (and rightly so!) for their own forces.
So, the Blackjack got a little love during the 4th SW era. Guess what happened to Blackjacks when the Clans arrived a few years later though? AC/2s against Mechs like the Thor and Ryoken. Yeah, that must have been pretty funny for the invaders. Clearly things needed to improve if the Blackjack was going to stand against the new threat, and a new variant based on the BJ-1DB concept rose to meet the challenge. The BJ-2 used the newly-rediscovered ER Large Laser as the core of its combat abilities, with one in each arm. These were the best of both worlds, combining the power of the large lasers on its parent with range at least comparable overall to the autocannons of the original BJ-1. A switch to double-strength heat sinks (see below) made for a cool-running (ish) machine that could lay down fire efficiently when needed. Oddly, the medium lasers were replaced with a quartet of Streak SRM-2 packs, sharing one ton of ammo. Now, a note on this one is that it has eleven double heat sinks, so after firing the lasers for a while it does warm up a bit. However, early versions of TRO:3050 (such as the authors) show this as eleven SINGLE heat sinks, and that's just... there aren't words. Do NOT use the wrong record sheet, people! A corrected BJ-2 is a joy to run, one of the hidden gems of its era.
The BJ-4 pops up in the Civil War era, and it's got even more new tricks. A light fusion engine is installed, freeing up plenty of weight. The armor is switched to light Ferro-Fibrous, but half a ton is removed (cancelling out, roughly), and adds CASE to the ammo bins. This baby-Jagermech then installs a light AC/5 in each arm, mounted with a paired ER medium laser. If you're into special munitions for autocannons, this has potential. Four tons of ammo (!!!) mean you can flavor your shots however you wish all day long, and the targeting computer tacked on means those shots are more likely to hit. Generally I'm not a fan of Mechs like this, but there's some fun to be had here if you're into the Department of Dirty Tricks. Alone, this is a waste of time, but as part of a group one can find some great fun to be had, supporting your friends with precision shots and the like.
It remains for us to cover one last Blackjack, and for that we look past the Jihad into the Dark Age, where apparently the BJ-2 is still used. The BJ-2r strips weapons from that Mech to gain a pair of Re-Engineered Large Lasers. Your opinion of these weapons likely varies considerably, dear readers- I myself am not a huge fan, since they're very situational on whether they're useful or not- otherwise they're just warmer and slightly-stronger large lasers for no real gain. A single medium laser pokes from the left torso. Note that the machine sinks all the heat from a run and firing both big guns, which is handy for sure.
So, a Mech that earns little love in-universe, tends to be overlooked by many players- but does it deserve that reputation? Well, yeah. The 3025 cannon variants are pretty bad, honestly. The BJ-2 is a lovely machine with a few warts to work out, and the 3 is a fantastic machine that likely is rare to the point of unicorn-status during the 4th SW in even elite units. Not one variant is particularly dominant over similar-sized machines in-general, to the point that the author found himself regularly wishing to trade in the Blackjack in favor of a Whitworth or Vindicator instead. It's slow, tough, and either hits hard at mid ranges or hits lightly at long ranges (depending on the version), and in no situation is it all that terrifying. Used intelligently it can be a very handy addition to your army, but if you're shopping for fire support Mechs it's best to keep on looking generally.
(http://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/0/04/3050U_Blackjack.jpg?timestamp=20101225090620)
CHECKERS! CHECKERS FOR ALL!
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I like the Blackjack. The BJ-1 and derivatives are pretty blah, but the BJ-2 and 3 are both loads of fun.
First time I ran a BJ-2, I helped a Zeus win a dispute with a Thor over who was the real god of thunder.
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Blackjack Omni article for those interested, by marauder648: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,48989.0.html
Thanks for the quick article Hellbie! Good read.
I like the Blackjack. Rifleman/JagerMech lite!
Ok, the original is not stellar, but it does come with four medium lasers, hard to argue with those in 3025.
Was hilariously good in MWO though. Just chipped away enemy armor, scaring them into cover, and/or stealing kills from friendlies by landing the killing blows.
Don't care for BJ-1 derivatives or its prototype. The latter is just sad, and the derivatives sacrifice armor. OK, twin LLs and a lot of heat sinks is kinda good but... eh.
BJ-2 is neat. Streaks are a tad weird choice perhaps, but four Streak packs with one ton ammo is a Streak armament done right, too many 'Mechs go for one or two Streaks with one or even TWO tons of ammo.
BJ-3 is good. Mini-Warhammer.
BJ-4... uh, OK? Maybe not bad but a bit dubious. For its time, it is awfully slow. I suppose it works as a militia 'Mech.
The REL version... 9 damage and defeating special armors at 15 hexes with -1 bonus to hit, not bad, but we're talking about a 45 tonner with poor mobility and mediocre armor for its time. The advanced lasers make it a dubious addition to militias, yet it feels too limited to be frontline material.
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You know, it occurred to me that while the introduction of the Omni version probably stole a lot of the thunder away from modding Blackjacks, we never did see a model with twin RAC-2s, and that surprises me. Not sure it can even be made to work (I'll have to play around with it sometime), but it seems like an ideal platform for the job- where the Jagermech was a textbook perfect showcase for the RAC-5, it seems like RAC-2's ideal debut platform would have been old BJ-1s. Dropping all six weapons gives you the tonnage, but much more would be needed to get the ammo on board (and I'm not sure an old Blackjack would be worth installing an XL engine).
Still, intriguing thought. A version trying LBX guns as a light AA platform would be amusing as well.
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Yeah.. the same happened with the Firestarter. Two 'Mechs with arguably superior Omni versions, why buy the original anymore?
All Blackjack variants are St. Ives or Davion ones, the only major users. And the Cappies got rid of theirs eventually after inheriting bunch from the St. Ives Compact.
Me, i'd refit the original with LB-2Xs for better golden BBs and cheap AA platform.
Paired RAC/2s are possible but they require XLFE plus endo-steel, some kind of upgraded armor, or reduced laser armament to free enough weight. LB-5Xs would be a bit easier to fit because of the reduced ammo consumption, or is one ton of RAC/2 ammo per gun enough?
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I suspect the BJ-1 is loved more for its quad medium laser battery than anything else. In the era it was played, this meant it could even fight the 55 Trio provided it could get in close. And it would have been quite good at swatting Bugs.
The others are pretty hohum though the BJ-2 is decent compared to what other Mechs got out of the Helm grab bag. The BJ-4 is clearly inviting players to abuse Precision ammo for -3 craziness, and I love it for that - it has moxie, if nothing else.
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Always liked the BJ-3 since it appeared in Battlepack 4th Succession War. Heck, a lot of those variants were good
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The 3025 Blackjack for me was always a fun mech to use but I never had any luck with it. A Jagermech throws more weight at range and even though the 4 medium lasers can cause a piloting skill roll, which an Enforcer can only do if it’s small laser hits, it is just fragile. I would prefer a Whitworth over the Blackjack in 3025.
That being said the 3050 is a gem. The twin ER large lasers provide excellent sniping and the 4 streak 2’s make for a nice critical finder later on in the game.
Nice article!
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It remains for us to cover one last Blackjack, and for that we look past the Jihad into the Dark Age, where apparently the BJ-2 is still used. The BJ-2r strips weapons from that Mech to gain a pair of Re-Engineered Large Lasers. Your opinion of these weapons likely varies considerably, dear readers- I myself am not a huge fan, since they're very situational on whether they're useful or not- otherwise they're just warmer and slightly-stronger large lasers for no real gain. A single medium laser pokes from the left torso. Note that the machine sinks all the heat from a run and firing both big guns, which is handy for sure.
If your in the crowd that plays as 'majority of mechs in the IS are mediums, then lights' then a BJ-2r is not a bad option and a good escort in Apollo/Whitworth/Dervish/fire support lance. For a 15 hex range, 9 damage, -1TH, and a special ability its a solid package against second string meds & lights . . . is it going to be able to fight off a Legionnaire that rushed to 5 hexes? Maybe not . . . but a Enforcer -5D? Blakist Chimera? Malak/Preta? Rook? Hatchetman?
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Goodness, finally a Blackjack!
Thank you so much for the article, Hellbie, for getting this out the door. I'd been pushing this one away from me ever since 2011 and it'd become so much of a Damocles sword that it is partially to blame for my general silence on the forums these days. :-\
And then you up and do it and get everything out of the way. All the chaff, everything that muddies the main point one has to make about the Blackjack. The main one, the big one, this:
Despite its initial in-universe reputation, the Blackjack is simply the best 'Mech ton for ton in the entire debut Technical Readout of BattleTech. Yes!
So, a Mech that earns little love in-universe, tends to be overlooked by many players- but does it deserve that reputation? Well, yeah.
Uh...
:o
:blank:
xp
Ok, so I agree with most things in your article, and think you've written it better and more comprehensively than I ever could. :bow:
I just disagree - very strongly - with the evaluation of the basic BJ-1. Looking at this thread, it seems I'm in the minority.
But let me just put this out there. Take a modest 45-ton 'Mech, add to it not one but two of the singularly most inefficient weapons that eat up almost a third of the total mass to do a royal 4 points of damage. How can one possibly salvage a start like that? By adding a quad of what amounts to a stupidly over-powered weapon, the not-so-humble medium laser. And making sure the overall package is golden.
The quad-ML + 4jj package is what makes a Catapult decidedly "dual-purpose" rather than simply "fire support". Nobody would argue against the Catapult being a very well-rounded package.
The BJ-1 fields 8.5 tons of armor, which puts it between the Vindicator (noted as a tough trooper) and the P-Hawk (which, other than the weak head, is not known to be under-armored). Considering that, say, the 60-tonners of 3025 had between 7.5 and 9 tons (deliberately discounting the outlier Dragon with its 10 tons), that is really impressive. I deliberately looked at the 3025 line-up, because the BJ-1 exemplifies how I view BattleMechs: as children of their era.
Any unit needs to hold up in the era it is placed in. When I view the BJ-1, I view it for what it does in 3025. And it does something absolutely unique:
With the BJ-1's 4 ML, it has the second-best (close-range) punch of the 3025 medium line-up, behind the Hunchback. With its jump jets, it gains a huge defensive bonus compared to that oh-so-vaunted unit. (The Enforcer has been brought up, but at close ranges, I would argue 4x ML are much more reliable in causing constant damage. Further addendum, seeing GreekFire just posted a Jenner article: that light 'Mech is frankly terrifying.)
With the BJ-1's 2 AC/2, it gains something utterly unique. Added to a unit with good armor, great close-range punch, and defensive mobility, one suddenly has no draw-back to lugging around that cluster of inefficiency. With no pressure to perform, the dual insult points suddenly become nothing but a bonus. The only other BattleMechs fielding AC/2s in TRO 3025 are, off the top of my head, the Vulcan - where the weapon is more a fluff piece than anything else - and the JagerMech, which is a huge pile of fail on account of compounding what should be mutually exclusive design decisions. So the "bonus" AC/2s come into their own on the BJ-1, stinging the opponents at either unparalleled range or with ludicrous accuracy. No range to-hit penalty at 8 hexes? Yes please.
The autocannons should be fired whenever possible, unless heat becomes utterly catastrophic. With 11 HS and jj, in a 3025 context, the BJ-1 is sensationally well protected against the adverse effects of the heat scale. If one can make a Rifleman work (and it's not very difficult to), the BJ-1 is a walk in the park. (Side note on the MechWarrior that money is owed to ^-^ : in a 3025 context, the CT is the safest place to stow ammo, no matter how catastrophic the effects of an explosion. Just ask the MAD-3R ^-^ ^-^ )
What good does that do? Dual AC/2s won't wear out your enemy's armor in a hurry. But dual AC/2s that hit at ranges where said enemy can't shoot back or that hit when his to-hit numbers are impossible will wear out your enemy's patience in a hurry. And when he makes that first mistake, you have all those lasers waiting for him.
And that is why I love the BJ-1 so dearly. It is objectively good as a trooper. And it offers something that is genuinely unique in its time.
This in turn is what killed my attempts to write a proper BJ-1 article. With 3050, it all goes away. The Clan ER LL laughs at the standard AC/2. The WVR-7M laughs at the BJ-2 (which drops the ML bank just in ways of insult). The 3025 "variants" are a travesty. The BJ-3 is an anachronism. The BJ-4 is tragic, it betrays old strengths and ends up being a very lowly and overly expensive unimpressive light trooper; I would literally go back to the BJ-1. The BJ-2r was created by yours truly in ways of out-of-universe statement: I love the Blackjack. Or at least I did once. In its time period, we should all love the Blackjack: the one and only BJ-1.
Again, thank you for the great article, Jade Hellbringer. You did what I could not.
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Whatcha mean with that "BJ-3 is an anachronism"?
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BattlePack: 4th SW. Easy to be a rock star when nobody else uses the biggest game changers ever introduced to BattleTech. Since then, the hypothetical BJ-3X may be a more appropriate approximation.
Also, not being entirely serious in that paragraph. O:-) Of course, as a BT unit, the BJ-3 is a keeper.
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Ah, i see now. Single heat sinks for everyone but this one guy...
Seems that the BJ-3X is kinda illegal unit though, unable to be constructed with current rules.
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If your in the crowd that plays as 'majority of mechs in the IS are mediums, then lights' then a BJ-2r is not a bad option and a good escort in Apollo/Whitworth/Dervish/fire support lance. For a 15 hex range, 9 damage, -1TH, and a special ability its a solid package against second string meds & lights . . . is it going to be able to fight off a Legionnaire that rushed to 5 hexes? Maybe not . . . but a Enforcer -5D? Blakist Chimera? Malak/Preta? Rook? Hatchetman?
With Re-Engineered Lasers, it seems to be more of a counter to Draconis Combine mechs that use Hardened and Reflective Armor, like the Rokurokubi, Wendigo, Hitotsume Kozo, and Shiro. Of those mechs, it creates an effective bubble of death against the Roku, but against the others it's likely to be sniped or simply overrun.
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It might be worth mentioning that the famous battle that helped to redeem the Blackjack was fought against Mercer Ravannion and his "bug swarm" tactics. Unlike most mechs, massed barrages of AC-2s would actually be pretty effective against Wasps and Stingers, who don't have the armor to simply endure the hits they take.
Seems that the BJ-3X is kinda illegal unit though, unable to be constructed with current rules.
How so? It uses prototype double heatsinks, which can be mixed with singles.
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With Re-Engineered Lasers, it seems to be more of a counter to Draconis Combine mechs that use Hardened and Reflective Armor, like the Rokurokubi, Wendigo, Hitotsume Kozo, and Shiro. Of those mechs, it creates an effective bubble of death against the Roku, but against the others it's likely to be sniped or simply overrun.
Ogre beat me to it. The value of ReLas is based completely on whether or not you are going to fight an opponent that it has value against. Snow Ravens also have FL and since they are not on the same speaking terms they once were that would be valuable weapon in any fight against them. I haven't gone out of my way to play mechs with ReLas, but the -1 to hit makes the weapon a bit better general use, rather than total crap (I've used them on a Templar and Sagittaire).
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How so? It uses prototype double heatsinks, which can be mixed with singles.
Yeah, sure, but can you have 7 engine singles and 3 DHS outside the engine? BJ-3X has total of 10 heat sinks only. Were it 10 singles + some prototype freezers, it'd be no issue.
Though i suppose it could be that MML simply doesn't allow for this even if it is rules-compliant.
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Sure Firesprocket, but I am not really sure when it came out b/c I do not think it was listed. The other 'r' refits were Jihad era so its why I went with comparable. Yeah, if you place it against the latest cutting edge design it might not function too well, but against something that is also a refit older design then it should do well. For one thing in the Dark Ages, its going to be pretty solid hunting battle armor like the Kishi and Zou on the Drac front.
And yeah, that was my point . . . its a lot like the Clan's ER Pulse, except they get an even bigger range boost than the Clan weapons get. IMO its a toss up between them and the X-Pulse which is what they should be compared with . . . the XPulse weights in at 7t just like the IS LPL for the same ranges & damage but 14 heat vs the LReL with 8t but 9 heat. So if you can spare the extra ton but not the heat, and a -1 instead of -2 works . . . compared to the old LL, yeah . . . 3t & 1 heat more for the same range, but 1 more damage & the -1THN.
I have only used the Spider with the LReL, mostly b/c I viewed it the same way as the Plasma Rifle. 15 Hex max range is not something you put on a slow unit after 3050 . . . but I can dismiss it in a med that is going to be a escort and second stringer. Do I want a new Penetrator that replaces the ERLL with LReL? Not hardly . . .
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It might be worth mentioning that the famous battle that helped to redeem the Blackjack was fought against Mercer Ravannion and his "bug swarm" tactics. Unlike most mechs, massed barrages of AC-2s would actually be pretty effective against Wasps and Stingers, who don't have the armor to simply endure the hits they take.
While it's true that Wasps don't react well to two-point hits for very long, their ability to rapidly close the distance with a Blackjack means that the number of two-point hits you pepper the target with will likely not be many before it's in your grill. Now, the BJ-1 has those medium lasers going for it (and flippy-arms, which is never bad against a bug Mech!), but the Wasp is now battering your armor as well. You have a lot more of it, of course, but damage is damage- and in Ravannion-style tactics, it's weakened areas for the other, oh, eleventy-hundred bugs to exploit even if you quickly kill that Wasp.
That's not to say the Blackjack is useless against such an enemy- far from it- but it actually works better as a harasser against heavier targets that might not be able to close as quickly. Consider the Orion, an old favorite of mine- while it can reply with the LRM rack, it can't really PURSUE a Blackjack- they have the same movement curve, and while the Orion can charge the Blackjack's position at a run (while the smaller machine can't back away as fast), the jump jets do make up for that in spades- and jumping heavies in that era are pretty rare. Two point hits won't do much to an Orion, true- unless you get lucky, you'll be picking at his armor for a long time. But you can do so from a position of near-godlike status- he can't really hurt you back if you're careful. (In which case he's one of the crappier gods, I guess? I lost the metaphor.)
Really, the absolute best thing a Blackjack does? It makes for a very handy valet, picking at vehicles until their motive systems fail. Park a Demolisher at long ranges, ignore it while you work on the Manticore next to it, etc.- those cannons stand just as good of a chance of getting motive hits as anything else does. Pick away at those vehicles, and send in artillery or infantry to finish the job once they can't escape.
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AC 2s are also good at keeping VTOLs honest.
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I also like the rapid fire AC rule for old 3025 designs, keeps them competitive IMO. AC/2 is also a great one for Prec ammo . . . sure, its just 2 points but things that go that fast usually do not want to get hit- like Harasser SRM Platforms. The nice thing with Prec ammo over Std is that you have 11 turns of fire . . . then you are left with the MLs and no ammo bomb.
I was sort of surprised to see the BJ-1 was not mentioned as the HBS starter mech. Its a pretty solid machine in the game and the AC/2s are great for tapping at vehicles which is what you face in the beginning.
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I was sort of surprised to see the BJ-1 was not mentioned as the HBS starter mech. Its a pretty solid machine in the game and the AC/2s are great for tapping at vehicles which is what you face in the beginning.
Well for starters, little if any mechs in the MOTW, deal with HBS details. Your and my thoughts on that may very. In either environment your throw weight on AC-2s and how effective they are at their job is based on what is in front of you to distract you from the gnat like shots.
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This is, I think, the first mech from the game that has come up and previous MotW dealt with MW3, MW4, MCG, and I want to say MechAssault.
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The BJ-1 can sustain harassment fire much longer than most fire support in its era, and is quite dangerous up close to boot. It can ping threats like hovers or fighters so that they never get to the missile boats, but it still provides a significant threat to light 'mechs that rush in close. Its the kind of 'mech that does good work as part of a company or larger, but doesn't really hold up as a solo act.
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The thing about the AC/2 is that they're guilt free. You have a LRM20 or gauss and two targets, one a seven and the other a ten to hit. Barring exceptional circumstances, you have to go for the seven.
The two ac2 on the blackjack? I have no problem betting on the bad odds on the chance I hit an open location, hover skirt or rotor blade. I'd prefer other mechs, but If I roll a blackjack I'm content enough.
If playing in a game that contains aerospace or aircraft, load flack. It doesn't hurt your output much groundside, but brings the pain up top enough to make up for it.
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I do like the Blackjack a lot. I think it was underrated but I think it was supposed to be a Hidden Gem that you had to know the potential. I do think it takes a smart user of the Blackjack know what to do with it and stuff like that. I totally agree with everything above that the sniping ability of the Blackjack specially during the 3025 air out makes it quite annoying for those people who can't actually reach it.
I wish the people who were doing the variants and updates for the Civil War era Mechs had thought of the RAC/2 variant for the BJ.
Once again, great job with article Jadehellbringer!
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Some Mechs simply earn the term 'legend' from the moment the prototype walks off the test room floor for the first time. Hallowed machines with great abilities and (eventually) extensive combat records to cause their names to be spoken in hushed tones over drinks for centuries to come. Marauder. Archer. Mad Cat. Atlas. Targe. The list goes on. Others may not have seemed like much when devised, but have earned a name for themselves with tough fighting over the years, like the Centurion, the Vulture, the Valkyrie.
Great list of 'Mechs. You only left out the Mjolnir. ;D
You know, it occurred to me that while the introduction of the Omni version probably stole a lot of the thunder away from modding Blackjacks, we never did see a model with twin RAC-2s, and that surprises me. Not sure it can even be made to work (I'll have to play around with it sometime), but it seems like an ideal platform for the job- where the Jagermech was a textbook perfect showcase for the RAC-5, it seems like RAC-2's ideal debut platform would have been old BJ-1s. Dropping all six weapons gives you the tonnage, but much more would be needed to get the ammo on board (and I'm not sure an old Blackjack would be worth installing an XL engine).
Just played around with it in SSW, and you can get the RACs and a ton of ammo in there if you drop all weapons like you said. You can also drop a heat sink and provide each RAC with a ton of ammunition. (For giggles I've just removed the RACs and installed four Light AC/2s and two tons ammo, but a 40 ton SRM-4 seems like a waste.) The LB 2-X swap is even easier and lets you keep the medium lasers.
You know the Blackjack might do really well if paired with an Enforcer. The Enforcer's AC and large laser allow for hole punching and the Blackjack's AC/2s do long range critseeking. They even have similar movement profiles. For that matter, pair it with a JagerMech for even more long range AC/2 action.
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Always liked the look of the Blackjack.
I could never find the use for the BJ-1, it's what you get if you can't afford a Rifleman much like the Whitworth is a poor man's Catapult. Dakka fans still like it because anything with auto-canons. I can see it as a back water militia mech as a cheap fire support mech, teamed up with other chap mechs but that's about it.
Then you have the Large Laser Blackjacks, now mechs have always served me well. The Blackjack is just a great Large Laser platform for it's weight. Not the best mech but still very effective.
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BattlePack: 4th SW. Easy to be a rock star when nobody else uses the biggest game changers ever introduced to BattleTech. Since then, the hypothetical BJ-3X may be a more appropriate approximation.
Also, not being entirely serious in that paragraph. O:-) Of course, as a BT unit, the BJ-3 is a keeper.
Even by 3050, paired peepers on a 45 tonner is respectable. It's enough to make heavies take notice and it's a beast against lights.
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I like the Blackjack. The BJ-1 and derivatives are pretty blah, but the BJ-2 and 3 are both loads of fun.
First time I ran a BJ-2, I helped a Zeus win a dispute with a Thor over who was the real god of thunder.
I've always liked the figure, but the mech itself, especially its initial version, the BJ1, was always underwhelming. Then we get into the variants.. The BJ1dc, was always a "HU", who designed this.. A drunk monkey?
The 1DB i often had good success with.. The paired larges, worked well for me.
The 1X and the -3 versions i never even saw..
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It apparently took me an article of a Blackjack to notice that Re-Lasers get pulse bonuses now.
Man, that's a nice surprise.
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They got erratad before IO release.
-1 heat for each class, and gained -1 to hit. The BV went up naturally, and there's one or two vehicles that are currently underweight due to the heat changes.
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I didn't even think they were too hot. :o
Well, that turns the newest Blackjack into a rather nifty machine in my eyes. I'd certainly prefer that over, say, large pulse lasers.
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Everything's preferred over LPLs, except maybe HVACs...
I think i'd have preferred a weird LAC/medium REL combination for the Blackjack. Special ammo and a battery for getting rid of special armor.
Or at very least a coat of ferro-fibrous and another medium laser, i dislike the asymmetry lol
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With the glut of Clan tech on the market in the DA era, Clan LPLs would be pretty entertaining. In a situation like this, I don't even feel like that violates Apollo's Law- it's taking what's already a good Mech and making it even nastier. There's probably better places to apply those LPLs in an army, but I see this as a very handy bodyguard for LRM boats- when your Longbows and JES carriers start getting harassed by Spiders and the like, a CLPL-Jack would be an excellent welcome mat to greet them with. Not bad for getting rid of aircraft either.
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With some tweaking, one could cram in quad ProtoMech AC/2s. No comment on whether there'd be any point to that...
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With some tweaking, one could cram in quad ProtoMech AC/2s. No comment on whether there'd be any point to that...
Why it's clever idea, it would have to be Dark Age variant at latest. Frankly, i'd think it's waste since the Mech may not be in production and weapons high expensive until FedSuns is able get more Clan tech producing factories going during it's current multi-prong invasions it's fending off by 3150.
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With some tweaking, one could cram in quad ProtoMech AC/2s. No comment on whether there'd be any point to that...
I'm laughing at my work desk hard enough that I almost spilled my coffee. I want to see a kitbash of this in miniature form now!
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I... don't get what's the funny thing. I was just thinking that i wouldn't be sure about LPLs, there are better platforms for them but something like PACs, sure why not.
As for a mini, we need to page Worktroll. I'm sure he is open to weird ideas like this.
EDIT pretty sure it would look like a miniature Rifleman.
EDIT2 I hope there are no coffee damages.
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Nah, no offense to the idea- I just got a mental image of this thing walking onto a battlefield with four miniguns tacked onto each arm and it gave me a good laugh. "BJ-5 Blackjack: Overcompensation Edition". The idea's a weird one, but not BAD at all- the LOOKS of it, however, would be absolutely fantastic.
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Oh, i see what you mean now.
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Nah, no offense to the idea- I just got a mental image of this thing walking onto a battlefield with four miniguns tacked onto each arm and it gave me a good laugh. "BJ-5 Blackjack: Overcompensation Edition". The idea's a weird one, but not BAD at all- the LOOKS of it, however, would be absolutely fantastic.
LOL, given how the Blackjack looks like, it look like non-arm variant of the UrbanMech. ;D ;D
I wish there were vehicles/mechs equipped with them, i'd love to do photo shop of one. ^-^
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With the glut of Clan tech on the market in the DA era, Clan LPLs would be pretty entertaining. In a situation like this, I don't even feel like that violates Apollo's Law- it's taking what's already a good Mech and making it even nastier. There's probably better places to apply those LPLs in an army, but I see this as a very handy bodyguard for LRM boats- when your Longbows and JES carriers start getting harassed by Spiders and the like, a CLPL-Jack would be an excellent welcome mat to greet them with. Not bad for getting rid of aircraft either.
Hey, you coined Apollo's law. That kinda makes you the arbiter. :)
Nah, no offense to the idea- I just got a mental image of this thing walking onto a battlefield with four miniguns tacked onto each arm and it gave me a good laugh. "BJ-5 Blackjack: Overcompensation Edition". The idea's a weird one, but not BAD at all- the LOOKS of it, however, would be absolutely fantastic.
Hey, that approach worked for Heavy Arms in GW Endless Waltz.
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I think my opinion of the design is similar to others, its a serviceable design for the SW era thanks to it reliance on the best weapon ever invented :thumbsup: but it could have been much better without committing a quarter of its weight to AC2s. I like the Davion LL refit, but I think it goes too far with the cooling and would have been better off not shaving off the armor and all the ML.
Cheers,
LCC
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They got erratad before IO release.
-1 heat for each class, and gained -1 to hit. The BV went up naturally, and there's one or two vehicles that are currently underweight due to the heat changes.
What got an errata?
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What got an errata?
The Re-Lasers. I missed that one, but they are just good now. Instead of lemons (well, maybe the colour fits) not quite reaching the level of HVACs.
I wonder why they needed to drop heat, but that's not the point here.
At first, reading the article, I just thought that the last version was rather expensive for being so utterly mediocre, but with the buffed lasers, it is now actually a serious mech.
Ignore reflec and hardened armour on what is essentially 2 large pulse lasers. Not bad, really.
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The BJ-1 is hands down one of the best teamplayers in the later SW era. When I first encountered it, I was like "yeah, no thanks". But a friend from my old chapter used to pilot one and it was awesome what he could do with it. Those 4 ML are not to be underestimated, and the 2 AC/2s are great in combined arms warfare to plink down helicopters and hovers.
We paired it with Catapults, my Griffin, a Jenner and even a Crab. It just adds to every medium to heavy lance.
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The Re-Lasers. I missed that one, but they are just good now. Instead of lemons (well, maybe the colour fits) not quite reaching the level of HVACs.
I wonder why they needed to drop heat, but that's not the point here.
At first, reading the article, I just thought that the last version was rather expensive for being so utterly mediocre, but with the buffed lasers, it is now actually a serious mech.
Ignore reflec and hardened armour on what is essentially 2 large pulse lasers. Not bad, really.
I'll have to keep that in mind. Generally errata is a fairy tail here until it's actually in a printed book or PDF. Just too much to keep track of.
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Nice article Hellbie! I loved to see the Targe getting its well deserved place in the list. :)) ;D
It is a great mech despite the AC2s. The 4 medium lasers are great and the AC2 are useful against tanks. If you feel evil just bring a Whitworth and enjoy the ML spam and the salt.
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The BlackJack looks like a flak turret on legs. which isn't a bad look considering, it's rather dashing placed by the commanders as they watch the rest of the army on parade. it also pretty much is a flak turret on legs. and jumpjets. 45 tons to say you can play lawndarts anywhere you go seems like a fine thing to me. playing a campaign and you make your enemy deal with a roving anti-aircraft lance devouring their air superiority sounds like the kind of harassment prefer to do.
i'm pretty sure the laser array is there to tell bugs in 3025 they need to pick another fire support to bother, and not every laser needs to be used offensively in a good battle plan.
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OTOH I contend the medium lasers are key to employment of the Blackjack, being the the vast majority of its firepower, and it's really the AC2s which are afterthoughts.
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Working on the enemy forces for my players to be up against for their first battle and this convinced me to use the Blackjack. They're very inexperienced with Battletech and it sounds like it should mess with them without destroying them.
"He's hitting us from that far!? Well it's really minor damage so we'll send the fast light mech after it. He should have no problem soloing it, right?"
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Muhahaha…. >:D
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I like the Blackjack. The BJ-1 and derivatives are pretty blah, but the BJ-2 and 3 are both loads of fun.
First time I ran a BJ-2, I helped a Zeus win a dispute with a Thor over who was the real god of thunder.
And I've just figured out how the Republic repeals the ilClan, they deploy the OG Thunder God, *Perkwunos, a 200-ton tripod with 6 CER PPC's, enough DHS to fire them continuously, a targeting computer, C3, the works.
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My thoughts on the Blackjack
The Blackjack (BJ-1) is a solid performer in your standard 3025 medium Davion lances. Pair it up with an Enforcer, a Centurion, and a Dervish, and you have a nice fire support/close range trooper lance. The key to the BJ-1's success is its combination of armor, jump jets, and its 4 medium lasers for infighting. It has comparatively low heat buildup, can fire the AC 2s for days, and while two 2pt hits at range 24 isn't very damaging, they do help in plinking away at a target. All in all the BJ 1 is designed as a team player. It's not going to grab the glory like a Wolverine or a Crab is, but it does the job, just like the M4 Sherman or a Volkswagen.
The BJ 2 is an excellent upgrade that Davion apparently fell asleep at the wheel on after the Jihad. The dual ER Large Lasers are an excellent replacement for the two AC/2, and can hurt most medium and light mechs quit well. The 4 Streak 2s are a good option if you're aiming to take advantage of a target weakened by ER Large Laser fire, and 1 ton of ammo is easily enough given the nature of Streak missiles. I'm not a Davion fan, but I always brought one of these along when fighting against the Clans as a Fedcom unit. They were a fairly good counter against Elementals as well as lighter clan units such as the Uller.
The BJ-3 is a horrifying energy boat. It's cheap, has great firepower, and any BJ-1 model could be refitted to the BJ-3 standard fairly quickly. Not many medium mechs can boast the ability to do 40 pts of damage in a single volley without XL/Light/Endo Steel construction.
The light AC-5 BJ 4 is built around specialty ammo and medium range combat. Precision ammo plus a targeting computer, or AP ammo etc makes for a fairly versatile anti-whatever platform. I can also see this as a decent city fighter or anti-BA unit.
The BJ-2r is a cheap counter vs special armor units. A low BV, two 9 pt medium range main guns, and a 4/6/4 movement rate means you'll need lots of covering fire to get the Large Re lasers into range. I can also see this as a raider or guerilla unit in broke /close range territory since it doesn't have to reload, and everything but the lasers are stock parts by the Dark Ages. If need be, the lasers could be removed and replaced with other weapons pretty easily
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First turn, clan fires, misses all. Is, fires, misses all but the Blackjack ACs. One tac and 2 engine hits later, it's turn 2
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[decloak]
Hey guys, been away from BT for a while, for several reasons that aren't relevant here. As one of the people long calling for the humble Blackjack to get an article, I was drawn back, like a moth to the flame. (Once upon a time, I considered writing it myself. But that was around the time I began drifting away. I'm glad I passed, since I'm certainly no Hellbie.)
Now, I must defend the honor of the humble BJ-1. The basic Blackjack is one of the most underrated designs in Battletech. It it the best light AAA platform in the game in any era, and one of the best AAA battlemechs in 3025. Compare it to the major competition: the JagerMech and the Rifleman.
First, a note on Flak ammo: Flak never went extinct. It isn't LosTech. AAA units should be packing it even in 3025 unless there's absolutely no chance the enemy has aerial assets. It gives a -2 to attacks against aerial units, and does full damage to such units and infantry, half against everything else. That also gives Blackjacks an odd niche of long-range anti-infantry fire, I guess.
The JagerMech gains 20 tons, and in the process loses 2.5 tons of armor, jump jets, and a heat sink, for the gain of....turning 2 MLs into AC5s. 3x the ammo, with much greater fears of the ammo bomb. In standard combat, it's worse at close range, only marginally better at longer range, and will probably die quicker. In AAA use, the range on the AC5s is fine, but they're still outranged by the AC2s, and having that long range ability to force lawn-dart rolls is what you really want. Would anyone trade their BJ-1 for a JM6-S?
The Rifleman-3N of course has its famed AAA targeting system, but unless you're playing with quirks that's meaningless fluff. Its weapons have even shorter range, if greater throw weight, less ammo, and worse heat woes. It *still* has 1 ton less armor than the BJ-1, and lacks jump jets. Most of the Rifleman's throw weight, though, comes from Large Lasers, which are the major source of its heat woes, *and* can't use flak ammo. And they have (relatively) short range, making them less useful for forcing lawn-dart rolls. Now, in normal combat most people would probably take and RFL. But as a AAA mech? Without its special targeting system, it's inferior all around. And if you're packing flak ammo, you lose more throw-weight vs ground targets than a BJ-1 does.
If you're in a unit that doesn't have the tech, size, and resources to blanket its HQ with a company of C3-linked partisans, but instead are the lone AAA unit in the CO's command lance, take the Blackjack. It's a better AAA mech than units 20 tons heavier, and when there aren't aircraft and you have to engage ground units? You're still better off than a JagerMech. You're also better at plinking vehicles from range than a Rifleman (and equal to a JagerMech), though if you're packing flak ammo you're doing 1 damage/hit instead of 2. Big loss. ::) To be clear, none of this necessarily means I'd want to take a Blackjack into close range combat with a Wolverine-6M. It has its niche that it's very good at: AAA. It's also serviceable at bullying smaller, less-well armed and armored units, and can even hold its own against units around its own size. It's not a world-beater. But it absolutely does not deserve its in-universe reputation.
A note on fighting Ravannion: Bugs are so weak that a single AC/2 hit pretty much anywhere can make a difference. A single 2-point hit anywhere on an STG-3R's torso or legs means the first ML hit goes internal. 2 points of damage to an arm or the head means that the first ML hit takes the area clean off. And Ravannion was only a Tai-i. Best I can tell from the fiction, his "hordes" replaced normal lances with 6-10 Wasps and/or Stingers. On Xhosa, he deployed his hordes (given that he's a Tai-i, say 3 hordes of 30 bugs total) against 2 companies of mostly Blackjacks and Locusts, with the Blackjacks doing most of the fighting. That's not really a big numbers advantage. It's hardly a shock he'd have been cut up at range and then annihilated in close. Heck, a company of Blackjacks could probably win that fight without the Locusts.
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Always had a soft spot for this beastie. I wanted to see a snubbie and IJJ or plasma version, but it always got outshined by other mechs
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At first I didn't like the blackjack because of my dislike for AC2s and AC5s. However, every time I played against one, I would get a CT golden BB TAC from it. So I have learned that the lords of the dice are on the side of the Black Jack. On the other side of that I do like using the 1DB model. You cant expect to go toe to toe with many heavier mechs, but you can really peal most things in your weight class and lighter apart. Problem is that every time I use the BJ-1DB it goes down to a gyro crit. EVERY TIME.
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another note. for it's time the BJ-2 was a nice little elemental hunter. a pair of large lasers slagging of most of the armor off of two suits, and up to 8 SRMs either finishing them off or if you were playing with Critical hits against Battle Armor Rules from MaxTech, you could potentially devastate multiple suits in a single go. in the way back I played against someone who loved using mechanized Battle armor, and the Blackjack and Javelin were usually added on top of the four mech lance instead of paying tonnage (cause BV 1 was terrible) for skill upgrades.
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When the BJ-2 came out, those SSRM-2s could have carried infernoes as well, right? That added some additional capability vs vehicles and infantry that isn’t apparent under the current ruleset.
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Yep, until the BMR edition.
Problem is, it only has the one ton of ammo, so you had to chose between the ammo types. This is made more painful due to quirks in the old infernos.
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And then, there is the glorious BJ-3. What a monster!
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blackjack has always been a favorite mine. I have a lot of weird fav and not cause of there perf in the actually game. There is always something that make me lean toward it. The BJ 1 is really a close range mech. That where the most of its fire power can be found. The ac are there just to annoy the enemy. Sort of like your kid brother poking say "I am touching you, I am touching you". BJ 3 was my personal favorite among the variant cause it retain the meds while adding even more firepower using the double heat for what it design.
So When I start to play MWO it was the very first mech I try to skill out. Those early game was a mix of frustration and determination as I started to learn now to play the game right. It was an interesting experience that didn't ruin love for the mech.
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I have always liked mechs that have a bad reputation that I feel is undeserved and the blackjack is a good example (same with something like the dervish).
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I have always liked mechs that have a bad reputation that I feel is undeserved and the blackjack is a good example (same with something like the dervish).
I hereby summon the Whitworth Mafia.
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The Whitworth isn't a bad 'mech either, but this is the Blackjack thread... ::)
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Whitworths have a bad reputation? In what crack house?
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In Universe things may have a bad rap . . . but since when has the Dervish been considered bad?
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Whitworths have a bad reputation? In what crack house?
In a few places it's been referred to as the Whitworthless.
In Universe things may have a bad rap . . . but since when has the Dervish been considered bad?
I think there were comparisons to primitive or succession wars era Dervishes to later fire-support 'Mechs. *shrug*
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In Universe things may have a bad rap . . . but since when has the Dervish been considered bad?
In universe they are often referred to as a "poor man's archer" and it seems despite what they do people do not seem to be buying them from what I am seeing on Sarna. Perhaps it is just me but that makes me feel like people tend to dismiss the design while other designs get looked on more favorably and with more fervor.
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In a few places it's been referred to as the Whitworthless.
*snip*
I had GM in the late '80s/early '90s who used "Whitless". I never quite saw the reason for his disdain, though...
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Whitworths have a bad reputation? In what crack house?
In a few places it's been referred to as the Whitworthless.
I had GM in the late '80s/early '90s who used "Whitless". I never quite saw the reason for his disdain, though...
It isn't incredibly flashy and certainly isn't going to roll massive damage on anything which is why it tends to be underappreciated. The Centurion and even the Blackjack in most of its Succession Wars guises are roughly around the same BV. Jump Jets aside, I think most people prefer the larger punch of an AC-10 or pair of Large Lasers over a pair of LRM-10s.
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Honestly, in '25 play in particular, they make for good lancemates with Blackjacks. Similar movement profiles, similar methods of primary attack (reach out at a distance and harass targets), with a potent secondary battery to fall back on to cover each other. If you're making a low-speed medium fire support lance, they make for a solid foundation of the force- a Blackjack, two Whitworths, and something with some more close-range muscle, like a Hunchback.
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It isn't incredibly flashy and certainly isn't going to roll massive damage on anything which is why it tends to be underappreciated. The Centurion and even the Blackjack in most of its Succession Wars guises are roughly around the same BV. Jump Jets aside, I think most people prefer the larger punch of an AC-10 or pair of Large Lasers over a pair of LRM-10s.
Shouldn't that be ac/2?
Whitworth might have an edge at range, especially when you consider the possibility of indirect fire, but the blackjack has more armor, heat-sinks, and lasers. I suppose that a whitworth could peel enough armor at range to make up the difference, but even then I'd bet on the BJ.
Actually pretty similar designs.
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Honestly, in '25 play in particular, they make for good lancemates with Blackjacks. Similar movement profiles, similar methods of primary attack (reach out at a distance and harass targets), with a potent secondary battery to fall back on to cover each other. If you're making a low-speed medium fire support lance, they make for a solid foundation of the force- a Blackjack, two Whitworths, and something with some more close-range muscle, like a Hunchback.
Yes, indeed. Also works well with a Hatchetman and an Enforcer added to a Whitworth and a Blackjack. There is a lot of damage in such a lance spread out over all range bands. And almost no issue with minimum range, because the Whitworth and the Blackjack have so many medium lasers and the Hatchetman can shield the lance from one angle.
Not much mobility in that lance, though. So, you need to either go up against a smiliarly immobile adversary or really trust your comrades on your flanks. I would field a lance of 6/9/6 light and medium mechs (Stingers, Wasps, Phoenix Hawks, Javelins etc.), deployed as a pair on each flank. Whatever is in your third lance, this makes for a nice core of a medium-sized cavalry company.
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The third lance I'd add to that would be 5/8/5 (Wolverines, Griffins, etc.).
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That would be my go-to as well. The classic 5/8/x 'Mechs are great, versatile units. Personally, I would go for Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine and Dervish, but there are other possibilities, too: Quickdraw (for a commander), Starslayer, Lynx, Gladiator or Valkyrie (as a very light option) or Trebuchet 5J would make good additions up to the Clan Invasion era.
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Shouldn't that be ac/2?
I was thinking about the large laser version of the Blackjack specifically. It is roughly 50 more points in cost over the Whitworth. That imo is a negligible drop in the bucket.
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How does the retcon for the Blackjack 3 and the introduction of the 3X change things? As far as I can tell even with three DHS-P the Blackjack-3X pilot is going to be creme brulee from all the excess heat. It sure wouldn't help the Cappies much. Kind of fits in that way though. It's lackluster performance should keep it on the sidelines. Apparently someone liked it enough to stick production quality DHS on the thing 13 years later to give us the The Blackjack-3. The BJ-3 being introduced later means its available for use against the clans where it should perform pretty well and inspire someone to put in an XL engine, more DHS and swap the standard PPCs for ER PPCs. As far as I know that hasn't happened though.
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To be fair, the Blackjack battlemech got mostly sidelined by the Blackjack Omni.
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Yeah, with the Blackjack Omnimech around, there wasn't much call to perform expensive upgrades on the standard Blackjack, so it mostly just got different weapon options.
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Okay. I can see that. New Mech means no upgrades for the old. But why would the BJ-3 get made when the BJ-3X would have given such a poor performance?
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Because DHS cover a multitude of sins? :D
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When you're making mechs, sometimes you go with the chassis you have rather than the one you want.
Also, sometimes when you get new technology you dust off old ideas and see if you can try them again but make them actually work. The Succession Wars era had a lot of stupidly hot designs that immediately became more viable once double heatsink were available.
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When you're making mechs, sometimes you go with the chassis you have rather than the one you want.
Also, sometimes when you get new technology you dust off old ideas and see if you can try them again but make them actually work. The Succession Wars era had a lot of stupidly hot designs that immediately became more viable once double heatsink were available.
That were viable even after ERing the big guns - looking at most marauders.
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Okay. I can see that. Thanks :)
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not to mention a lot of designs that were viable even though they ran hot. look at the Marauder (again) and it's 16 SHS dual PPC set up. works just fine in a 2-1-2-1 pattern.
would those with access to the stats care to share them so we can gauge how effective it is from a position of facts? because right now aside from the fact it uses ProtoDHS, i don;t know enough of the details to judge. is it 3 protoDHS plus ten singles, or did it replace three of the 'free' singles with the proto DHS? if the former it would run pretty much as a marauder's fire pattern. if the latter you'd need more of a 2-1-1-2-1-1 pattern and would need to accept a mobility hit every third round. but would still be pretty effective as a fire support unit.
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assuming the freezers are the same as Sword and Dragon, it looks like it's just the three (of 10) that aren't in the engine. Which would give it 13 heat dissipation; just not enough for 2 PPCs.
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The Blackjack 3X has 3 DHS-P, which are the Freezers from Sword & Dragon. It has a total of 13 heat dissipation (7 SHS+3 DHS-Ps). That isn't enough for two PPCs.
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How many Medium Lasers does the 3X have? The 1DB only has two, and if the 3X is supposed to be a derivative of that, that could mean more heat sinks (specifically, the Prototype Doubles).
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The BJ-3X has 4 medium lasers. The PPCs replace the AC/2s, ammo, and 1 heat sink, and upgrades the 3 remaining heat sinks do DHS-Ps. It is a 180 rated SFE with 7 SHSs.
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Hmmm... yeah, dropping two of those Mediums for two more P-DHS would work pretty well, I think.
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The Blackjack 3X has 3 DHS-P, which are the Freezers from Sword & Dragon. It has a total of 13 heat dissipation (7 SHS+3 DHS-Ps). That isn't enough for two PPCs.
It's plenty of you're willing to use your heat scale. A standing 2-1-2-1-1 pattern of ten-point slugs out of a pre-Invasion 45-tonner is a nasty volume of fire against anything its own size, and it can go heavier if you're willing to chance a couple fairly easy shutdown rolls.
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Having seen a 'mech fail that 4+ roll (and be headcapped as a result), I no longer characterize ANY shutdown roll as "easy"... 8)
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Rolls like that are what make games worth playing. :)
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LOL! Indeed... :thumbsup:
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If you make the shutdown roll you've still got the -2 modifier. You're also -3 MP making retreat difficult. :(
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Also true, though I'll say the 'mech I saw shutdown could have made it off the board with the -3 MP...
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The basic 3025 Blackjack is probably the best use of AC2's on a mech that I have ever seen.
The 3040's BJ-3 turns around & makes it even better with a brutal punch for a 45t mech at that range & is an easy class-D repair bay refit.
I'm not a huge fan of most of the other variants or the Omni. But those 2 above are gems in my book.
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You're also -3 MP making retreat difficult. :(
The 4 JJ's don't care about your -3 MP issue.
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Agreed about the Blackjack... the Vulcan's not bad, either. It has the speed to keep the range open at a walk against heavier opponents.
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If you make the shutdown roll you've still got the -2 modifier. You're also -3 MP making retreat difficult. :(
If you're willing to spike to shutdown, you're not in a retreating mood. Carpe Caseum!
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The 4 JJ's don't care about your -3 MP issue.
True but the heat of jumping could cause another shutdown roll.
If you're willing to spike to shutdown, you're not in a retreating mood. Carpe Caseum!
True but life is cheap. Mechs are expensive. ;)
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Make sure the other guy's mech is more expensive. >:D
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Make sure the other guy's mech is more expensive. >:D
If that isn't the Sea Fox slogan in the Dark Age, I don't know how to live with such an oversight.
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If you're willing to spike to shutdown, you're not in a retreating mood. Carpe Caseum!
Seize the...cheese? ???
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what else would one seize?
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I have other thoughts, but not on this forum. :)
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That's only because you're a mod now... 8)
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Is the Dark Crow quasi Clan cousin to the Black Jack?
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Make sure the other guy's mech is more expensive. >:D
:))
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Is the Dark Crow quasi Clan cousin to the Black Jack?
I never stopped to think about it, but the similarities in layout are pretty obvious now that you mention it. I wouldn't call it a Blackjack IIC, but I wouldn't be surprised if the scientists and engineers behind the Crow had old Blackjack blueprints on their walls. Good call!
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I prefer my own theory that the Sun Cobra is the Blackjack IIC. But I can definitely see similarities. I suppose both the Wolves and Ravens recognized the sublime majesty of the Blackjack, and adapted it to Clan technology in different ways.
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The Blackjack 3X has 3 DHS-P, which are the Freezers from Sword & Dragon. It has a total of 13 heat dissipation (7 SHS+3 DHS-Ps). That isn't enough for two PPCs.
The full stats for the BJ-3X have never been released, so we don't know what it has in terms of heat dissipation.
Chris
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The full stats for the BJ-3X have never been released, so we don't know what it has in terms of heat dissipation.
Chris
TRO:3039 tells us what modifications were made to the Blackjack BJ-1 to create the BJ-3X variant. Replacement of the Autocannons, ammo, and 1 heat sink with 2 PPCs. Three of the remaining heat sinks were replaced with DHS-P. The BJ-1 had 11 heat sinks. Removing 1 SHS and replacing 3 others with DHS-P gives the BJ-3X the ability to remove 13 point of heat.
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Hmm... the Alpha Strike stats on MUL also line up for a 7 SHS/3 DHS design. Without those extra MLs, it doesn't do enough damage to get 2/2/2 OV2.
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I am always thinking it is so odd that they made the BJ-3 come out during 4SW 20 years before the BJ2 existed. I know they probably designed it later outside the game but it seems odd to give it that designation in universe. You would think they would have called it like BJ-1a or something.
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it is an oddity.. the result of a mix of the BJ-3 being retroactively inserted into the setting well after the BJ-2 had been established in TRO3050, and the general FASA trend of not giving a [bleep].
honestly though i wouldn't be surprised if maybe the prototype for what would become the BJ-2 didn't exist already in setting (a BJ-2X or something), leading to the BJ-3.
given that it looks likely that both were built on St.ives. if the BJ-2 prototype had a lot of growing pains (or just a lot of redesigns) i could see a 20 year development cycle. especially if the design got shelved for a bit after the 4th succession war and then revisited around 3039. we've honestly seen worse in the setting.
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I am always thinking it is so odd that they made the BJ-3 come out during 4SW 20 years before the BJ2 existed. I know they probably designed it later outside the game but it seems odd to give it that designation in universe. You would think they would have called it like BJ-1a or something.
That is a bit of an "oops." On the other hand, rule of cool dominates designation/numbering convention in this setting. The letter suffix is sometimes a good clue as to which faction it goes with but not always, especially pre-TRO 3050 material. FASA started to tighten up the faction specific machines in TRO 3055.
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The BJ-2 and BJ-3 were the products of different states, and numbers get skipped all the time when designating new models, so it looks weird but isn't unreasonable.
Certainly no Rifleman 3N vs 3N-2 situation.
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iirc though wasn't Ceres Metals the only surviving producer of the blackjack post 2nd succession war? so while the BJ-2 might have been produced for the fedcom, it would have to have been built on St. Ives. (which given the Compact's post 4th war relationship with the fedcom, would not be a hurdle)
thus my speculation that a BJ-2 prototype might have existed in 3028, causing them to skip the number.
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That depends on whether the BJ-2 was built on new frames or originally done as an upgrade of existing Blackjacks.
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thus my speculation that a BJ-2 prototype might have existed in 3028, causing them to skip the number.
You know, this makes me kind of wish there was a Battletech mini TRO series where they'd sell a small book with an in-depth of every variant of a given chassis plus a few new ones alongside a miniature of said chassis and some sprues for modifying it.
Hell, just PDFs for it would be nice, I don't even need the mini.
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That threshold sounds a lot like "fan-produced"... ^-^
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iirc though wasn't Ceres Metals the only surviving producer of the blackjack post 2nd succession war? so while the BJ-2 might have been produced for the fedcom, it would have to have been built on St. Ives. (which given the Compact's post 4th war relationship with the fedcom, would not be a hurdle)
thus my speculation that a BJ-2 prototype might have existed in 3028, causing them to skip the number.
I'll point out... Objective Raids says the Blackjack line on St. Ives was originally circa 3030 a Vindicator line, but St. Ives couldn't sell Vindicators to the AFFS/AFFC/SIMC [Lack of demand, not legality] so they retooled it for Blackjacks.
The original TRO 3050 only describes the BJ-2 as a field modification kit as well.
As far as I am aware no one is building Blackjacks until 3054 when GM-Talcott restarted production.
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it is an oddity.. the result of a mix of the BJ-3 being retroactively inserted into the setting well after the BJ-2 had been established in TRO3050, and the general FASA trend of not giving a [bleep].
honestly though i wouldn't be surprised if maybe the prototype for what would become the BJ-2 didn't exist already in setting (a BJ-2X or something), leading to the BJ-3.
given that it looks likely that both were built on St.ives. if the BJ-2 prototype had a lot of growing pains (or just a lot of redesigns) i could see a 20 year development cycle. especially if the design got shelved for a bit after the 4th succession war and then revisited around 3039. we've honestly seen worse in the setting.
I can see a BJ-2X but its going to have worse heat problems than the BJ-3X. The prototype ER-L Lasers generate 12+1D6 heat. Maybe if it's based on the BJ-1DB and given DHS-Ps?
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That is a bit of an "oops." On the other hand, rule of cool dominates designation/numbering convention in this setting. The letter suffix is sometimes a good clue as to which faction it goes with but not always, especially pre-TRO 3050 material. FASA started to tighten up the faction specific machines in TRO 3055.
I always assumed that ComStar, and the SLDF before them, decided on these BattleMech codes. It's rather unlikely, in my experience, that dozens and dozens of producers, licensees and factories adhere to a unified code of 'Mech denomination.
Probably Davion factories name a lot of their 'Mechs differently than Liao or Kurita producers name those types. Maybe even quarter masters and military leadership have their own denomination for them. The F-5 'Tiger', the F-20 'Tigershark', the YF-17, T-38 Talon and half a dozen knock offs and renames might in the BTU just have ended up being called TIGR-F5 Tiger and then F-17X, F-20 etc.
So, I'd handle the BJ-3 as an initial oversight on ComStar's end of business. And probably a ROM agent being transfered to a listening post in the interstellar deep.
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I'll point out... Objective Raids says the Blackjack line on St. Ives was originally circa 3030 a Vindicator line, but St. Ives couldn't sell Vindicators to the AFFS/AFFC/SIMC [Lack of demand, not legality] so they retooled it for Blackjacks.
Wow. Talk about in-universe bias. The Blackjack's quad medium laser array is pretty good, but the paired AC/2's are a bit niche. The two mechs have the same mobility and similar armor, yet I would say the Vindicator is probably the more flexible and generally useful of the two. Yet the AFFS wanted nothing to do with them... Neat bit of world building.
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Wow. Talk about in-universe bias. The Blackjack's quad medium laser array is pretty good, but the paired AC/2's are a bit niche. The two mechs have the same mobility and similar armor, yet I would say the Vindicator is probably the more flexible and generally useful of the two. Yet the AFFS wanted nothing to do with them... Neat bit of world building.
Not Invented Here . . . just think of the T-12- US designer got it built in Russia.
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Not Invented Here . . . just think of the T-12- US designer got it built in Russia.
Oh, I believe it! The US captured plenty of German helmets after WWII, did some testing and noticed that the German helmet offered better protection than the M1. Efforts to adopt something similar were stymied multiple times because some kept pointing out "Uh, dude, we can't use this. It looks just like what the Nazis used." And thus, the US soldier went into battle for 35 years with inferior kit because the better item had uncomfortable connotations in the mind of the leadership.
It's just neat to see that level of stupidity reflected in-universe.
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I have a hard time with that bit of fluff. Mechs are in such great demand, and so readily salvaged, that I can’t see a state turning down a capable design like the Vindicator. Davion kept building Cataphracts in captured factories, right? When Kurita took Quentin, they kept building Victors and Atlases. The Kell Hounds were fielding Panthers in the Warrior Trilogy. (Ok, the way they talk about them suggests that Dan and Morgan consider driving a Panther a bit déclassé, but it’s still way better than being dispossessed.) Would the FS prefer Blackjacks over Vindicators? Sure. But to refuse to buy Vindicators when they’re offered? That just doesn’t sound plausible.
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Listen to the Tex Talks Battletech on the Catapult some time...
While "mostly" tongue-in-cheek, Military development and bureaucracy can be an unusual thing indeed.
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I have a hard time with that bit of fluff. Mechs are in such great demand, and so readily salvaged, that I can’t see a state turning down a capable design like the Vindicator. Davion kept building Cataphracts in captured factories, right? When Kurita took Quentin, they kept building Victors and Atlases. The Kell Hounds were fielding Panthers in the Warrior Trilogy. (Ok, the way they talk about them suggests that Dan and Morgan consider driving a Panther a bit déclassé, but it’s still way better than being dispossessed.) Would the FS prefer Blackjacks over Vindicators? Sure. But to refuse to buy Vindicators when they’re offered? That just doesn’t sound plausible.
Like I said, stupidity.
I doubt the FS "refused" to buy Vindicators that were sitting on the lot. I suspect it was more like reps from AFFS procurement were being treated to lunch by the manufacturer(can't recall the name right now), and a general explains that there's nothing wrong with the merlot from Paulding. Rather that he simply prefers the a merlot from Woodbine. And if he has to pay $600 a bottle, he's going to get the one he likes, even if it takes a bit longer. How long would it take to do something else with that Vindicator factory?
The Cataphracts were new designs. There is interest in tearing those things apart to see if the Cappellans have done something new and innovative. Once the investigators and test pilots spend a few months putting them through their paces and digging through all the paperwork at the factory, they went, "Oh! Shiney!" The fact that it wasn't a historically Capellan design probably helped.
As to the usual shuffle of "Factory world X changes hands for the Nth time in a century, just change all the labels in the cockpit and paint a new flag on the mech's shoulder." That's a case of people not being stupid.
The Kell Hounds running with Panthers was battlefield salvage by a group that did not yet have more resources than the average planet. They were mercs, either in time of war or in the run up. In either case, it was before the Inner Sphere rediscovered mass production.
Listen to the Tex Talks Battletech on the Catapult some time...
While "mostly" tongue-in-cheek, Military development and bureaucracy can be an unusual thing indeed.
got a link handy?
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got a link handy?
I'll link the Playlist (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLR5zhFCFVb9Ul5DLGzgQ6k4OeYjy2daZ3). While most of them are clean, language wise, there's the occasional f-bomb or the like and I'd rather not infer the Mod's wrath, if I don't have too...
As of this post, the Catapult vid is the sixth one on the playlist.
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Wow. Talk about in-universe bias. The Blackjack's quad medium laser array is pretty good, but the paired AC/2's are a bit niche. The two mechs have the same mobility and similar armor, yet I would say the Vindicator is probably the more flexible and generally useful of the two. Yet the AFFS wanted nothing to do with them... Neat bit of world building.
Oh, they only retooled for BJ-3s I believe, which legit is a superior design to a Vindicator.
And reading the book again... apparently it was more St. Ives turning their nose up at Vindicators, because their connotations with the Capellan state. I was misremembering FS/FC involvement.
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Not Invented Here . . . just think of the T-12- US designer got it built in Russia.
T-12... That was the one that put each road wheel on an arm and the arm had a torsion bar running the width of the tank, right?
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I misread "Blackjack" as "Bojack" in the title and my mind twisted onto itself.
"back in the 80s I was in a not-so-famous T-RO..."
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I would point out that the Vindicator, while amazing on the table top, is not so amazing in universe.
It was seen as a filler unit for a nation that lacked a large # of heavy mech factories.
Its a Mid/Lower end medium in terms of weight & lacks any "specialty" other than "Generic Trooper".
Now on the table top it happens to do that AMAZINGLY well for its size, but in universe fluff doesn't always match table top performance.
Just look at the BJ fluff & its "Bad Rep", but on the TT, JJ & Quad Mediums in close or twin sniping from the longest ranged L1 weapon all mean its quite capable, which isn't something I would normally say about any other double AC toting design.
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And the FedSuns already had the Centurion and Enforcer, which both serve a similar role to the Vindicator.
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Back in college, the Vindicator was notoriously hard to kill. And sadly, the Blackjack was just as underestimated as it is now.
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Vindicator admittedly does get screwed a little with the Battlemech Manual quirks.
Having no torso twist.
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I don't get how the Vindicator has that quirk.
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I don't get how the Vindicator has that quirk.
Look at the TRO3025 picture.
Its a solid block torso, no "turret ring" like a lot of mechs have.
Though frankly if they do it to the Vindicator they need to do it to many of the other 40/45 ton mechs that have the same drawing style. (Whitworth, Hermes-II, etc etc)
Basically 1/2 the mechs that were not "Battleoids" from Robotech
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TBH, the lines look of 3025 really isn't detailed enough for me really say that it definitely doesn't. The 3050 and 3050 Upgrade art makes it look like it does.
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Tex has just reviewed (https://youtu.be/TRe0UhgLKiE) this beauty.
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TBH, the lines look of 3025 really isn't detailed enough for me really say that it definitely doesn't. The 3050 and 3050 Upgrade art makes it look like it does.
Isn't this the 3050 pic? Still no torso ring.
https://www.google.com/search?q=vindicator+sarna&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjp4b3-sJfmAhVQop4KHaVkBjwQsAR6BAgKEAE&biw=2134&bih=1023#imgrc=0EHfuhoKSwhf-M (https://www.google.com/search?q=vindicator+sarna&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjp4b3-sJfmAhVQop4KHaVkBjwQsAR6BAgKEAE&biw=2134&bih=1023#imgrc=0EHfuhoKSwhf-M)
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Tex has just reviewed (https://youtu.be/TRe0UhgLKiE) this beauty.
Yes, Tex is back and all is right with the universe. I do love his take on the history of GM within the BTU leading up to the first Blackjack.
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Isn't this the 3050 pic? Still no torso ring.
https://www.google.com/search?q=vindicator+sarna&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjp4b3-sJfmAhVQop4KHaVkBjwQsAR6BAgKEAE&biw=2134&bih=1023#imgrc=0EHfuhoKSwhf-M (https://www.google.com/search?q=vindicator+sarna&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjp4b3-sJfmAhVQop4KHaVkBjwQsAR6BAgKEAE&biw=2134&bih=1023#imgrc=0EHfuhoKSwhf-M)
Was looking at it on my phone yesterday- harder to tell on the smaller screen.
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Tex has just reviewed (https://youtu.be/TRe0UhgLKiE) this beauty.
And more Duncan Fisher, well..., being Duncan Fisher... Fireballing a horse? Yea, he'd do that for sure...
Seems like Mr. Ledoux has enjoyed reviving that character thru the BPL.
And the GM rips and nods to the Marauder were a nice touch as well. When Tex & the BPL get around to doing the Marauder, that'll be a fun one...
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I never turned down a BJ-1 for intro rules play. I'd run it as a brawler, firing the AC/2s while closing into medium laser range. I rarely lost a BJ-1 to an ammo explosion. It's pretty tough!
I really love the MWO art for the 'mech too.
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This came across my youtube a couple days ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRe0UhgLKiE&t=1968s
Is the author part of the boards here?
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This came across my youtube a couple days ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRe0UhgLKiE&t=1968s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRe0UhgLKiE&t=1968s)
Is the author part of the boards here?
AFAIK, Tex of the BPL isn't apart of the boards here.
And the review was already mentioned upthread...