Most Powerful single mech by rules level

[Drewbacca]

Looking for some suggestions from the hive mind, what is the single most powerful, or more to the point, most difficult mech to fight against, baring the Super Heavies, per rules level (standard, advanced, experimental)?

[Greatclub]

Intro - banshee -3S

IS std - Fafnir. It can't fight alone, though
Clan Std - It's hard to beat the hellstar, though the BV is excessive for what you get.

Clan Ex - Osteon Prime. Great range, great ability to throw damage, Just. Won't. Die.

[dgorsman]

Awesome for intro rules.

Hellstar for pretty much anything else.  Although my preference is the ERLL and TCOMP version.

[boilerman]

Looking for some suggestions from the hive mind, what is the single most powerful, or more to the point, most difficult mech to fight against, baring the Super Heavies, per rules level (standard, advanced, experimental)?

I'd say that depends on the scenario.

[massey]

Hard to top the Daishi Widowmaker.

[agen2]

Tomahawk II.

[Kit deSummersville]

The Xanthos -5O is such a pain to kill but if you ignore it then it will chew up your 'Mechs one at a time.

[Wrangler]

Clan wise - Tomahawk OmniMech (the original) - Selections are so brutal and the Machine is so tough.
Inner Sphere - Berserker - That thing comes in like a freight train, the variant with TSM is brutal if you get up and personal.

[Daryk]

No one's mentioned the 3025 Marauder II yet?  ???

[I am Belch II]

Bane 3....I ve been on the receiving and giving side of this mech. Didn't last long when on the receiving end.

[Colt Ward]

Clan wise - Tomahawk OmniMech (the original) - Selections are so brutal and the Machine is so tough.
Inner Sphere - Berserker - That thing comes in like a freight train, the variant with TSM is brutal if you get up and personal.

Not sure the Tomahawk beats out the Osteon . . C or D, take your pick.  The Osteon starts out with Ferro-Lam armor, Reinforced Structure, Nova CEWS, and a CT cockpit.  First is 3/5/5 with 2 Large Pulse, 4 Med Pulse, and TC.  Second is just 3/5 with 4 Large Pulse and nearly enough DHS to constantly fire them.  I am not part of the Clan Large Pulse Cult, but its going to negate a lot that gets done to it . . . and with Nova CEWS, it just gets better with a team mate.

Might have to find someone to play the Hellstar vs a Osteon (12 pts per hit vs 10) . . . see how it goes.

[dgorsman]

15 with the ER PPCs, 10 with the ERLL.   ;)

[MadCapellan]

IS Tech wise, the PLG-4Z Pillager & DVS-2 Devastator are pretty near the pinnacle. Definitely Hellstar for the Clans, though.

[Greatclub]

Clan wise - Tomahawk OmniMech (the original) - Selections are so brutal and the Machine is so tough.
Inner Sphere - Berserker - That thing comes in like a freight train, the variant with TSM is brutal if you get up and personal.

Balancing heat on the TSM 'zerk is such a pain that it limits what it can do. Banshee -8S for my 'cut it in half' needs. I'll take the relative fragility for a consistent heat of 9.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Including artillery 'Mechs?

[Colt Ward]

15 with the ER PPCs, 10 with the ERLL.   ;)

No, what I was giving was what the damage would be between the Hellstar and the Osteon D . . . The Osteon D is only going to take 12 points of damage from the Hellstar b/c Ferro-Lam armor takes 80% of the damage.  So if you wanted to go with the ERLL Hellstar, your down to 8 point hits vs the Osteon's 10 point hits.

[massey]

Turkina Z is pretty freakin' brutal.  I'd take it over a Hellstar any day.

[Sartris]

hitting with all four iATM-12s firing HE is a special kind of satisfying.

[GreekFire]

Looking for some suggestions from the hive mind, what is the single most powerful, or more to the point, most difficult mech to fight against, baring the Super Heavies, per rules level (standard, advanced, experimental)?

Powerful is one thing. People have mentioned the Hellstar, or Tomahawk, or Pillager, or any of those big shooty 'Mechs.

Most difficult to fight against? Wulfen C.

First: It has a 10/15/10 speed backed up by Stealth Armor. You will only ever engage it on its terms, never the opposite.

Second: It has three TargComp'd ER Mediums. It can reliably force a PSR on its own.

Third: It has options. It can run (with Stealth on) and fire all ER Mediums for +9 heat - allowing it to escape at 9/14/10 speeds the next turn. Or, it can jump 10 (with Stealth off), fire all ER Mediums for +13 heat, just shy of that shutdown roll. Run away, repeat. With Stealth off, it can do running backstabs all day.

Fourth: It is the posterchild of a 'Mech that completely and utterly breaks the BV system. My group has come to the conclusion that adding an extra 400 BV to its price to makes "fair".

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Wulfen C is powerful, but it's a massive heat pig.

[Giovanni Blasini]

No one's mentioned the 3025 Marauder II yet?  ???

Good call for Intro tech, yeah.

[Daryk]

Thanks!  I was beginning to worry this was going to be a clan only discussion.

[Sharpnel]

IS Introductory: TI-1A Titan

IS Tournament Legal: MAD-4L Marauder II (Stealth plus twin gauss and a ER PPC)

Clan: Hellstar or the Turkina Z

[Colt Ward]

Okay . . . so BV balanced . . .

A 3/4 Hellstar has 90ish BV on a 2/4 Osteon D . . . while a 3/5 Osteon D has 20 BV on a 4/5 Hellstar.

Any Hellstar believers want to give it a shot in MegaMek? 32x32 map?

[ANS Kamas P81]

IS Intro, and nobody mentions the Awesome yet?  Shame.

[Giovanni Blasini]

IS Intro, and nobody mentions the Awesome yet?  Shame.

 ???

Uh, got mentioned three posts in:

Awesome for intro rules.

Hellstar for pretty much anything else.  Although my preference is the ERLL and TCOMP version.

[massey]

The PPC mechs are cool, but I think they really lose out to other designs.  I'll take the Stalker over the Awesome.  More overall damage potential once you get close.

And don't forget about jumping Clan pulse machines.  The Viper (Black Python) is still a beast.

[Jellico]

Dueling or formation?

A Hellstar is great when it has friends to protect it and use its range but there is plenty out there that will close and gut it one on one.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Uh, got mentioned three posts in:

I guess it was so obvious a choice I didn't see it!  ;D

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Dueling or formation?

A Hellstar is great when it has friends to protect it and use its range but there is plenty out there that will close and gut it one on one.

Pretty much. Dueling and fighting in a formation are quite different.

[Greatclub]

I once ran a test on headchoppers. One of the fights was 10 hellstar VS equal BV of Black Hawk Ku prime, both forces controlled by megamek dogbrains.

The Ku buchered the hellstars outright. A third of their BV was intact at the end, testament to the sheer efficiency of the medium laser and ability of the MPL to hit after jumping.

-8Q awesomes were the other contestant, and they won as well, something I attribute to the amount of cheap(ish) armour they carry.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, but that MegaMek bot will just keep plodding ahead so the Hellstars who are outnumbered are going to get themselves into their enemy's preferred range.  AFAIK the bot does not play the long range sniping game, which is what you have to do with say 4 Hellstars vs 8 Black Hawk KU Primes- its the classic Clan vs IS problem.

[dgorsman]

Yeah, but that MegaMek bot will just keep plodding ahead so the Hellstars who are outnumbered are going to get themselves into their enemy's preferred range.  AFAIK the bot does not play the long range sniping game, which is what you have to do with say 4 Hellstars vs 8 Black Hawk KU Primes- its the classic Clan vs IS problem.

Test bot/classic Bot, yes.  Princess, not so much depending on settings.  If set for low risk and low agression it should try to keep the range open.

[Hammer]

Test bot/classic Bot, yes.  Princess, not so much depending on settings.  If set for low risk and low agression it should try to keep the range open.

This...

Princesses settings have a big impact on how she plays.

[Colt Ward]

This...

Princesses settings have a big impact on how she plays.

I understand that, but your still talking about both sides playing dumb compared to a human- and one side has a simple path to victory and the other path requires more finesse.  Simplicity is going to win when both sides are playing dumb.

[Greatclub]

The Ku needed more AI mods than the hellstar. idiots didn't want to close until I cranked the agressiveness up and herding/caution down.

[Son of Kerenski]

Intro: Imp. 30+ damage at L&S ranges. Butt load of armour.

Standard: Archangel. Compact Engine and Gyro and Max Armour.

Clan: Hellstar (for reasons peeps have mentioned) and the Sphinx is pretty nasty too.

[Colt Ward]

Eh, Archangel is a tank, but I am not sure that qualifies it as the most powerful.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Not remotely.  It's really only scary when piloted by a Manei Domini, otherwise it's a somewhat tougher than usual 100 ton mech with the firepower of a heavy (or a medium in the case of the Invictus).  It's also weakened by having a Small Cockpit so it falls over rather easily.

In single combat when it doesn't have a cheesetastic cyborg pilot, it's more of a big target.

[Greatclub]

Archangel Infernus is first tier in a brawl, if not in a duel.

[Agathos]

This is a fun topic, but I feel like something important hasn't been mentioned yet. What's the most powerful primitive 'Mech?

[GreekFire]

This is a fun topic, but I feel like something important hasn't been mentioned yet. What's the most powerful primitive 'Mech?

Banshee -1E for sure. It's an unstoppable beast from the moment it's introduced up until the moment the Primitive era ends. The only other 'Mech that comes close is the Mackie, but both of its variants suffer from an empty Left Torso and an ammo bomb in the Right Torso while the Banshee has good padding all the way through.

[Son of Kerenski]

Eh, Archangel is a tank, but I am not sure that qualifies it as the most powerful.

If you can outlast your opponent then that definately counts for something. The Dominus is a flashbulb super zombie. Nothing to take lightly

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Archangel is really only superior at avoiding death by crits, though.  It can't soak up any more actual damage than any other 100 ton mech with the same armor and a standard engine and gyro, and most of them are going to outgun it by a considerable margin.  All it can dish out is 40 points of damage for no heat if it's standing still, or 50 points if it wants to gain 10 heat.  Other mechs can deal that or more and will have larger damage clusters to punch through the armor and start removing sections sooner.

[Greatclub]

The archangel Berith, with Berith in it, is the scariest canon mech I can think of offhand.

[Colt Ward]

Does it beat 0/1 Natasha Kerensky in a Widowmaker?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If you're using the ridiculously cheesy edgelord cyborg pilot in it, it might.  Or at the very least get a draw because both will be able to use Called Shot-High to blast each other and likely get mutual headcaps on the first round.

[Colt Ward]

Lol, closest canon character I could think of . . . but its still going to have to get down into 18 hexes range to be hitting at long.

[Kit deSummersville]

Banshee -1E for sure. It's an unstoppable beast from the moment it's introduced up until the moment the Primitive era ends. The only other 'Mech that comes close is the Mackie, but both of its variants suffer from an empty Left Torso and an ammo bomb in the Right Torso while the Banshee has good padding all the way through.

I think the Xanthos might give it a run for its money.

[GreekFire]

I think the Xanthos might give it a run for its money.

Naw man, the Xanthos' armor isn't heavy enough to stand up to the Banshee.
Even if things end up in brawling range, one kick from the Banshee is enough to go internal on its own.

Not to mention that part of what makes the Banshee top-tier is that it's the only 'Mech that mounts all of its weapons in its torsos, a definite plus in the Primitive era. The two punches can't be discounted.

[Sharpnel]

Naw man, the Xanthos' armor isn't heavy enough to stand up to the Banshee.
Even if things end up in brawling range, one kick from the Banshee is enough to go internal on its own.

Not to mention that part of what makes the Banshee top-tier is that it's the only 'Mech that mounts all of its weapons in its torsos, a definite plus in the Primitive era. The two punches can't be discounted.

A standard introductory level Xanthos has 323 points of armor. This is more than any Mech of its era. With its weaponry it isa major threat to any and all who oppose it

[Greatclub]

Does it beat 0/1 Natasha Kerensky in a Widowmaker?

Nasky K is good, but she isn't +2 to initiative rolls good, IIRC.

It isn't by much, but maybe he could handle her?
.

[Colt Ward]

Thought Berith was a she?

A HPPC & 2 LPPCs at 18 hexes and then some VSPL when its closer are going to have problems when they run into 2 cERPPC at 23 hexes and adding 2 cLPL at 20 . . . get in close enough to use those VSPL or even the melee and she will have her UAC/20.  Besides, being characters of different eras Berith has more of the new SPA & such while we do not have anything like that for Natasha . . . though we might get it with the KS Legends info.

I would be willing to try that out in MM, just the same as Hellstar vs Osteon D.

[Greatclub]

from sarna: "Berith, born Benjamin Emory". The period he had that mech, almost definitely a he.

Yeah, on the open field she'd slaughter Berith, no contest. but since when do Manei Domini play fair?

[Colt Ward]

For some reason I was thinking of the MD in charge of the Shadow Division that hit Regulus.

[Greatclub]

just found this in era report 3052

natasha Kerensky: Possibly the most infamous MechWarrior
in history, Natasha Kerensky has Elite-level experience in the Clan
MechWarrior, Infantry, and Officer Fields (even though Clan training does not generally produce the Officer Field). She also has a
+8 Skill roll modifier in Acting, Leadership, and Tactics, as well as a
+6 in Negotiation. When in combat, her command Star (or lance)
is immune to Morale Checks and she negates all special command
abilities possessed by the opposing force’s commander. In addition,
Natasha Kerensky possesses the Blood Stalker, Multi-Tasker, Sniper,
and Demoralizer Special Piloting Abilities (see pp. 219-221, and
225, AToW)

Yeah, he's toast.

[Colt Ward]

Ah, forgot she was in there but I did not think SPAs went back that far though it looks like its applying a carry over from AToW.

[Greatclub]

I want to nominate a light mech for among the most powerful.

Urbanmech AIV.

/silly

[Daryk]

You can put a nuke on an AIV, right?  8)

[Kojak]

So nobody's even gonna mention the Gyrfalcon 4? ???

[GreekFire]

A standard introductory level Xanthos has 323 points of armor. This is more than any Mech of its era. With its weaponry it isa major threat to any and all who oppose it

Thank you for your input, but the discussion was about Primitive 'Mechs - the Primitive Xanthos has 160 points of armor.

[GreekFire]

So nobody's even gonna mention the Gyrfalcon 4? ???

Ehh...TSEMP 'Mechs are way too dependent on lucky rolls for me to really consider them top contenders.
I feel like if it bumps into something like the Blood Asp G it'll get absolutely vaporized unless the Gyrfalcon 4 nails that shutdown.

[Sartris]

TSEMP is best applied in waves. the best solution to static low probability is a high quantity of attempts

[Retry]

TSEMP is best applied in waves. the best solution to static low probability is a high quantity of attempts

If I have the spare tonnage to waste on waves of TSEMPs to get consistently good results, I have the spare tonnage for Snubbie PPCs or lasers to simply vaporize the target.

[Sartris]

no one said it was a good idea

sometimes a bad hand played cleverly is the only option you have

[Son of Kerenski]

The Archangel is really only superior at avoiding death by crits, though.  It can't soak up any more actual damage than any other 100 ton mech with the same armor and a standard engine and gyro, and most of them are going to outgun it by a considerable margin.  All it can dish out is 40 points of damage for no heat if it's standing still, or 50 points if it wants to gain 10 heat.  Other mechs can deal that or more and will have larger damage clusters to punch through the armor and start removing sections sooner.

Which other IS standard mechs are you referring to?

[Colt Ward]

Giving the Archangel to a pilot of Berith's attributes is a bit of a cheat, but straight up fight?

Thunderhawk, Devastator, Fafnir, O-Bake in the assault class . . .

Heavy class is a bit more iffy, maybe a Falconer or Warhammer -9D (5/8/3?)

Phoenix Hawk 7K, Uziel 8S, TR1 Wraith, or other designs along those lines (is there a 2 Snub & IJJ medium?)

If we BV balance it, then a lot more faster ranged options become available.

[massey]

TSM Berzerker is pretty nasty.

[Greatclub]

TSM Berzerker is pretty nasty.

As I said earlier, balancing heat on it is a pain. I'll take the relative fragility of the Banshee -8S over the 'zerk.

[Giovanni Blasini]

For Primitives, what about the Helepolis?

[Wrangler]

For Primitives, what about the Helepolis?

Because it artillery can fire nuclear shells?

[Sgtops54]

Crusader.

[Son of Kerenski]

Giving the Archangel to a pilot of Berith's attributes is a bit of a cheat, but straight up fight?

Thunderhawk, Devastator, Fafnir, O-Bake in the assault class . . .

Heavy class is a bit more iffy, maybe a Falconer or Warhammer -9D (5/8/3?)

Phoenix Hawk 7K, Uziel 8S, TR1 Wraith, or other designs along those lines (is there a 2 Snub & IJJ medium?)

If we BV balance it, then a lot more faster ranged options become available.

OBakemono? With Arrow 4? I will take that fight one on one any old day of the week.

Would also happily take on the Thawk with its 3 exploding Gauss and XL engine.

And with standard pilots. No Berith BS.

Warhammer 9D is also fragile. Would definately outlast it in a match.

There's a chance a Uzi or Wraith might be able to wear it down eventually but it's gotta get close to those Peeps.

There are 2 mediums with 2 Snubs and 7 jump. Yao Lien and Eidolon.

[Colt Ward]

The Warhammer 9D has movement and 5 hexes of range, forcing it into HPPC range is going to be more of a challenge for the slow Archangel.

[Son of Kerenski]

You forget the Luminos version also has ERPPCs. Happy to stand still and trade 2 ten pointers at maximum range until the cows come home.

It also has slightly less BV2 than the 9D

[massey]

As I said earlier, balancing heat on it is a pain. I'll take the relative fragility of the Banshee -8S over the 'zerk.

I never had a problem with it.  First round, you walk and shoot the ER PPC and 4 ER Mediums plus the Flamer.  That puts you at 9 heat.  You can set up out of LOS if you want and just shoot at trees or something if you need to.

Now you just need to stay heat neutral.  So you can run, shoot the ER PPC and 2 ER Mediums and Flamer, or 5 ER Mediums and Flamer.  You'll stay right at 9.  Either dump ammo on the Anti-Missile System, or live with occasionally going to 10 heat and walking next round.  Either way, you just need to keep 9+ so you can get those 40 point hits.  The movement bonus isn't as vital once you get to HTH range.

[massey]

All of you who are talking about Battle Value should go wash your mouths out with soap.  That heresy has no place in a thread like this. ;)

[Daryk]

Agreed... BV, which has no mechanism to account for player skill, isn't particularly useful.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Battle value isn't supposed to represent player skill.

[Daryk]

Exactly the problem.

[Paul]

Exactly the problem.

How would that even be achievable though?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm pretty sure it would involve a lot of tournament play.

[Greatclub]

How would that even be achievable though?

manually, with a handicap based on a rough estimate.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm pretty sure that would make things even less balanced.

[Sartris]

It’s all relative. I ran chaos campaigns for the same people for years. The BV adjustments I made for their games were curved to their skill and play style. I doubt they would work for a general audience

[Greatclub]

It’s all relative. I ran chaos campaigns for the same people for years. The BV adjustments I made for their games were curved to their skill and play style. I doubt they would work for a general audience

This.

[Daryk]

Yes, that... a GM who knows their players.

[Colt Ward]

You forget the Luminos version also has ERPPCs. Happy to stand still and trade 2 ten pointers at maximum range until the cows come home.

It also has slightly less BV2 than the 9D

Your shifting targets on me- you were discussing the Berith person config.  I put up IS models of various classes that could defeat it with a stock pilot, you wanted to shift to a more ranged model.

[SteelRaven]

Think this entire discussion went off the rails some time ago.

[Son of Kerenski]

Your shifting targets on me- you were discussing the Berith person config.  I put up IS models of various classes that could defeat it with a stock pilot, you wanted to shift to a more ranged model.

No targets to shift as I never actually said I would be using the Berith model or pilot. Go through my posts again and you will see that.

I would use the Dominus against Assaults and the Luminos against Heavies and lower.