Re-engineered Lasers

[Alexander Knight]

I said I was neglecting the edge case of armor thresholds which is generally a good assumption for small weapons which have to grind through armor rather than instantly penetrating it which only really happens with 15+ point clusters, especially against larger designs.

Except of course for rear torso armor, head armor, and battle armor.

I also notice you refused to address the point of "all my standard lasers hit the same location".

[Diablo48]

Except of course for rear torso armor, head armor, and battle armor.

The head armor is never applicable because you will always require multiple hits to penetrate and the odds of hitting it in the first place are low.  The rear torso armor is a possibility on smaller 'Mechs, but once you get out of the medium range it will generally be thick enough to require multiple hits either way.  BA also tend to have enough armor that you will need to hit them several times to kill a suit.

Net result: you are grinding through armor in the majority of cases, just like I said earlier.

I also notice you refused to address the point of "all my standard lasers hit the same location".

That would be because it is irrelevant.  You are grinding through armor the hard way so concentration does not matter, just total output.  The hit tables will scatter the damage over all locations with either system so your average penetration time will be purely dependent on the total damage applied as you wear down every location more or less evenly because you lack hole punchers to create soft spots.

[Alexander Knight]

I disagree with your assumptions and methodology but we will be unable to convince each other.  I'm done.

[haesslich]

You are working on an edge case (right armor type) of an edge case (specific location hit) of an edge case (specific amount of armor in that location) and saying that makes the weapon useable. Your logic and metric is severely flawed.

By 1 point. In return, they can't crit seek as well, can't force TACs as well, can't force a PSR, do less damage except against reflective armor, and less effective against vehicles and BA because the generate fewer distinct hits.

RE Mediums are a .5 tons over weight for what they do, and generate 1-2 points too much heat. If they were 2 tons and 5 or 6 heat you could take them and not be so much worse than other lasers that the benefit they provide in the right circumstances would balance out.

You're also saying more guns are always better... which isn't always the case. Yes, you've got 5 ML - IF they all hit in the same spot, IF they all hit at all, and IF you have the heat sinks for them, they have advantages. They do let you target multiple enemies, and let you have flexibility in not getting that heat if you fire only a few of them, but you're also losing a crit space for that fifth laser, which may not be possible depending on that mech or vehicle's load out.

The ReML will always do the rated damage to ANY armor type. Ditto any other reengineered laser. It's not a replacement for the equivalent laser the way the ER was meant to be,  ut an option like a pulse laser is.  For designs that don't have the room (weight or crits) to carry extra weapons, it's a choice between a single gun that does massive damage (like an ERPPC), a few guns that will hurt anyone the same (especially if the enemy is known for using special armor types) like the RE lasers, or taking a few more regular, ER, or pulse lasers (understanding they won't hit as hard against said special armors).

The TC doesn't guarantee that all your guns will always hit - it only reduces the difficulty. Unless you know you'll hit the same area with all the lasers, all the time, then you're not getting the same guaranteed output and damage by carrying multiple regular lasers. The RE lasers are an option that gives guaranteed results, at a cost in increased heat and bulk. But they've got their uses, and are better than IS pulse lasers, at least in what you get for that bulk.

[Previn]

You're also saying more guns are always better... which isn't always the case.

That's not what I said. If you want to pretend that's some sort of slippery slope where I claim that MORE GUNS ARE BETTERS. Go right ahead and do that while ignoring the facts presented.

[haesslich]

That's not what I said. If you want to pretend that's some sort of slippery slope where I claim that MORE GUNS ARE BETTERS. Go right ahead and do that while ignoring the facts presented.

To quote the post that point #1 came from:

And as J have shown, that is a flawed metric that only works when you're up against a single slab of armor.  It's the difference between theory and practice.  And in practice, my ReML will blow through the rear torso armor of that Rokurokubi in one hit.  Your medium lasers?  Won't.

The original point is still valid; more regular MLs can blow through the hardened armor on the rear of a Rokurokubi in one hit and cost less in C-bills while having the potential to do more damage to a target that doesn't have special armor. But that is merely potential, and the ReML will always punch through with a successful hit, while the cluster of MLs may potentially do so.

To quite the other post you had been replying to ..

And two Re-ML will generate less heat than 5 ML.  Your point?

Yes, you don't have the same number of rolls to crit-seek with using just two ReMLs. What you do get is that guaranteed damage against all armor types. What you give up in potential damage, you gain in knowing you won't need to gamble with your shot. The TC only does the -1 to the difficulty as I noted earlier, so each of those 5 MLs can be a gamble against a fast enemy generating high to-hit modifiers, or if they're geared up right. Combine that with special armor, and that means you're potentially doing 4 damage per laser against FL armor, or only taking off two dots on hardened.  Using even just one  ReML means I get six damage against both those armors, period. If both lasers hit, that's 12 points. I've still done the full 6 points at a minimum, versus having those five lasers MAYBE hit to do the extra damage of 20 on FL and 12.5 dots on hardened. If I only hit with 3 of those shots, then I've only done the same damage on the FL as the ReML and 7.5 dots on hardened.  But I've still got 15 heat to deal with on the 5 MLs.  One point of difference, but on smaller platforms I may not have the extra crit slot.

As I said earlier, it has a place, and the extra weight/heat requirement shows it was balanced to make sure it wasn't the super-laser that some had feared. The ReSL is the worst in the weight-to-benefit ratio when compared to the standard version, but I wouldn't call banks of MLs or LLs that take up the same weight automatically superior. Especially when I don't want to spend extra crit slots or tonnage on spare lasers when I know the opposing force tends to use Hardened, FL, or reflective, just to make sure I do enough damage to them.

[Nahuris]

While everyone here was arguing, I decided to put them to the real test ... One of my good friends loves his Great Turtle.... and a pair of Prey Seekers just about took it down.... so, as far as I am concerned, that's good enough to have them around. Will I put them on every mech? No, because that's not the point.... but if I know that there is a chance my opponent might have one of the armors, then it IS an option.... same as I will look to pulse lasers and TC, if I know I might be facing IJJ, or fielding an LBX if my opponent has a good chance of putting Vtols on the field.

So, if I am facing a MODERN Kurita force, having a few might be benificial.... and if I am not, then I look to other designs.... it's a tool in the toolbox.... same reason as I have both flat, and phillips screw drivers.... I just might need one, or the other.

Let's face it.... if I bring precision ammo to the table, and my opponent brings nothing but Urbanmechs and 3/5 assaults, then I'm not getting the benefit. If my opponent brings Vtols and Infantry, and all I am fielding is Hellstars, then I really don't have an advantage. And if my opponent brings reflective armor on all his designs, then even my Hunchback with 9 Mediums is reduced to doing 18 damage a round... and that's only if all 9 lasers actually hit.

Yes, there is the whole big "this weapon is better than that weapon" arguments.... and yes, there is a strong competition to win..... but, this is a game. And the fact that my 3025 Clint can still be useful, and be used on the modern field is great..... Not every force is going to be top notch, cutting tech, elite units.

However, it is nice to have an option for when you do hit one of those.......

Nahuris

[Diablo48]

While everyone here was arguing, I decided to put them to the real test ... One of my good friends loves his Great Turtle.... and a pair of Prey Seekers just about took it down.... so, as far as I am concerned, that's good enough to have them around....

If you want to do a real test, you will need to run this scenario several times both with the canon version with the RE-lasers and with a modified version with standard models to get a feel for which one actually works better with a statistically significant number of trials.  Based on the math, you should be looking at roughly equivalent results against the mountain of hardened armor, and I am fairly certain you should see this in test games.

[Scotty]

Or, he could actually have fun with it and still develop useful data?

Threads like this make me worry for BattleTech.  When several pages of a thread are spent arguing over minute percentages and rather more vicious than it needs to be disagreement over said minute percentages, it's not fun to read, or I imagine fun to play in an environment like that.

[CloaknDagger]

Threads like this make me worry for BattleTech.  When several pages of a thread are spent arguing over minute percentages and rather more vicious than it needs to be disagreement over said minute percentages, it's not fun to read, or I imagine fun to play in an environment like that.

The point of it IS the minute percentages. There's no point in having the weapons if they're not even useful.

The automatic reaction should be, "Oh, they use a lot of lamellor, reflective, and hardened armor? Time to grab the Relasers."

As it is now, That motivation isn't really there, so the relasers are just superflous.

[Maskerade]

The point of it IS the minute percentages. There's no point in having the weapons if they're not even useful.

I disagree with this. Having weapons that aren't useful except in the circumstances in which they were designed to be used is fine, it adds character to a unit, it forces you to play more tactially with it. It's like the swayback - sure it's numerically superior in every way, but it's just not a true hunchback. You can go back and forth over whether RE lasers are worse than massed standard lasers, but the RE laser does what it's supposed to do, and that's enough for me to declare it a weapon worth using.

Sure, RE mediums lose out numerically to medium lasers. Practically everything in battletech loses out to medium lasers. Sure, the RE small lasers lose out to medium lasers. RE small lasers are mostly there for completeness. Sure, RE large lasers lose out (narrowly) to large lasers. No RE laser was designed to be "better" than its standard counterpart. It was designed (maybe accidentally, that's just fluff) to be better in specific circumstances, and in those circumstances, RE lasers out-perform their standard counterparts.

[Yeti]

In a way you are right and that is a fundamental problem in BattleTech. There are some weapons that are already so good (like the medium laser), that you can't design weapons that are better without breaking the system. So all new stuff is sidestepping into more and more speciallized niches to get anything useful.
This gets even worse if you enter clan tech into the equation. While the RE large laser is at least slightly better than the standard laser, i am pretty sure without crunching the numbers that the clan ER medium laser totally overshadows it in nearly any combat situation.

[False Son]

That brings up the question of why can't Succession Wars era lasers be lly outclased by modern IS lasers without some drawback like the extra heat of an ER?  Why can't the Re-Engineered laser be the same tonnage, space and heat as a standard medium laser, but have the RE laser effects if the BV is reflected?

[Arkansas Warrior]

I disagree with this. Having weapons that aren't useful except in the circumstances in which they were designed to be used is fine, it adds character to a unit, it forces you to play more tactially with it. It's like the swayback - sure it's numerically superior in every way, but it's just not a true hunchback. You can go back and forth over whether RE lasers are worse than massed standard lasers, but the RE laser does what it's supposed to do, and that's enough for me to declare it a weapon worth using.

Sure, RE mediums lose out numerically to medium lasers. Practically everything in battletech loses out to medium lasers. Sure, the RE small lasers lose out to medium lasers. RE small lasers are mostly there for completeness. Sure, RE large lasers lose out (narrowly) to large lasers. No RE laser was designed to be "better" than its standard counterpart. It was designed (maybe accidentally, that's just fluff) to be better in specific circumstances, and in those circumstances, RE lasers out-perform their standard counterparts.

  They problem is that only the ReLarge is even useful in those limited circumstances.  The ReSL and ReML at best only break even with normal lasers, and then only in their specific niche.

[faraday77]

That brings up the question of why can't Succession Wars era lasers be lly outclased by modern IS lasers without some drawback like the extra heat of an ER?  Why can't the Re-Engineered laser be the same tonnage, space and heat as a standard medium laser, but have the RE laser effects if the BV is reflected?

Because a) TPTB's 'no weapon shall ever be useless' mantra is still in effect after 25+ years and b) they also continue to 'balance' weapons by weight/crit/heat/special rules, even if that approach causes more problems than BV.

[Previn]

To quote the post that point #1 came from:

The original point is still valid; more regular MLs can blow through the hardened armor on the rear of a Rokurokubi in one hit and cost less in C-bills while having the potential to do more damage to a target that doesn't have special armor. But that is merely potential, and the ReML will always punch through with a successful hit, while the cluster of MLs may potentially do so.

"You are working on an edge case (right armor type) of an edge case (specific location hit) of an edge case (specific amount of armor in that location) and saying that makes the weapon useable."

An ER-Small laser is good weapon for killing assault mechs, after all, it can get TAC on the center torso (edge case) and then a triple crit (edge case) and then have all those crits hit only engine slots (edge case), destroying the mech.

Combine that with special armor, and that means you're potentially doing 4 damage per laser against FL armor, or only taking off two dots on hardened.

2.5 off hardened armor.

Using even just one  ReML means I get six damage against both those armors, period.

RE Mediums have an advantage against not even 1% of the total units in BT. More than 99% of the time, they are factually worse. Even against that less than 1% of units, they are less effective against vehicles and VTOLs than the same tonnage of medium lasers. Against those from that less than 1% remaining, they are only more effective if you are striking rear armor that is at specific break points in terms of amount of armor on the rear.

If both lasers hit, that's 12 points. I've still done the full 6 points at a minimum, versus having those five lasers MAYBE hit to do the extra damage of 20 on FL and 12.5 dots on hardened.

You never have a guaranteed 6 points from an RE Medium. They do not have a 100% hit chance. If you hit with 2 RE Mediums, you would have hit with AT LEAST 2 regular mediums in the same circumstances, with a chance to do more. Again, I really want to drive this point home: the weapons have the exact same hit %, so any hits with RE Mediums would also be hits for a like number of Medium lasers.

No really, I want to drive this point home. You need a 7+ to hit. You roll an 8 and a 9 to hit with the RE Mediums, meaning both hit. If you had 5 Medium lasers instead, you would have rolled 8 and 9, and then rolled 3 more times for the remaining lasers.

Now, let's put this into practice against the Rokurokubi. We hit the RTR with 1 of 2 RE mediums, it deals 6 damage and thus 2 internal. This means we hit the RTR with 1 of the first 3 Mediums as well, and then need to see if the remaining 3 hit, and where they hit. That would put the Rokurokubi with 1.5 points of RTR armor remaining, and a second hit would deal 2 internal damage. Now we can't calculate the exact chance of that without knowing the to hit number required, but again, we're looking at a very specific case that's built to favor the RE Medium laser. If we weren't comparing against the rear are specifically, you'd want the medium lasers. That is seriously how weak that argument is.

It's like saying someone fell 3000' feet and lived, so you shouldn't be worried about falling that distance.

If I only hit with 3 of those shots, then I've only done the same damage on the FL as the ReML and 7.5 dots on hardened.  But I've still got 15 heat to deal with on the 5 MLs.  One point of difference, but on smaller platforms I may not have the extra crit slot.

I can only assume you're confusing 2 separate points since having an extra crit slot doesn't effect heat in any way other than the tangentially related ability to fit heat sinks. You are also again commenting a fallacy by automatically hitting with the 2 RE mediums, but having to check all the Mediums separately. If you hit with 2 RE Mediums, if you had 5 mediums instead, you would have hit with at least 2 of those, meaning you just had to hit with 1 more of the 3 remaining to do equal damage against FL, or more to non-reflective or non-hardened armor. It only takes 3 mediums to beat 2 RE Mediums against standard armor.

Now, if you've been paying attention, this means that if you mounted 4 regular medium lasers, you will be better against greater than 99% of the units you will face. 4 regular medium lasers is a ton less, the same crits, 4 heat less and from 2 less to 8 more damage (I think it averages 3 more) depending on how many hit.

As I said earlier, it has a place, and the extra weight/heat requirement shows it was balanced to make sure it wasn't the super-laser that some had feared. The ReSL is the worst in the weight-to-benefit ratio when compared to the standard version, but I wouldn't call banks of MLs or LLs that take up the same weight automatically superior.

No one wanted a super laser. We wanted them to not suck so much that taking them was objectively bad unless you were in very contrived circumstances, and taking banks of Mediums as opposed to RE Mediums is essentially automatically superior, which is the whole problem.

Especially when I don't want to spend extra crit slots or tonnage on spare lasers when I know the opposing force tends to use Hardened, FL, or reflective, just to make sure I do enough damage to them.

Opponent has hardened armor? You want 5 mediums over 2 RE mediums in the vast majority of cases.

Opponent has FL armor? You want 5 mediums over 2 RE mediums. Worried about space/tonnage? 4 mediums is still better and is lower in weight and crits, and still lets you for PSR if all hit.

Opponent has Standard armor? You want 5 mediums over 2 RE mediums. Worried about space/tonnage? 4 mediums is still better and is lower in weight and crits, and still lets you for PSR if all hit. Really worried about space/tonnage? 3 mediums is still better and is lower in weight and crits.

Opponent has Reflective armor? You probably want 2 RE mediums over 5 medium lasers, unless it's a vehicle in which case you don't.

[Sid]

Untrue.  Multiple attempts does not ensure at least one success.

If you're only looking for one success though, multiple attempts does increase the chance you'll succeed though.

It's something like:

1 - (Chance of failure)^Attempts

If you're flipping a coin, the odds you'll get a heads result on following number of attempts is:

1 flip:  50%
2 flips: 75%
3 flips: 87.5%
4 lips: 93.75%
5 flips: 96.875%
6 flips: ~98.438%
7 flips: ~99.219%


Which applies to using one 'big' gun versus several small ones.  If you're looking for just one 'success' (in this case, breaching the rear armour on a 'mech), the bigger the difference in number of hits needed, the more useful the big gun can be even if the smaller guns deal more damage overall.

For an in game example, let's say you're fighting a squad of Battle Armour that's covered in laser reflective armour.  The measuring stick seems to be 2 ReMLs versus 5 MLs right?  12 damage versus 10.  So let's keep things simple and say that the suits have 9 armour (plus 1 trouper inside) so that it requires 10 damage to kill one suit.  Average wise, assuming a 100% hit rate every turn, both the 2 ReMLs and the 5 MLs will both kill one trouper per turn-  or a total of four turns to wipe out the squad.

However, each trouper needs multiple 'successes' (individual hits) to kill him.  There's a 100% probability that one of the four suits will be struck by the first laser-  then there's a 25% chance of 'success' in hitting the same trooper for every weapon afterwards.  The ReMLs need 1 success and the MLs need 4.

-Turn 1-
ReML:
25% chance of killing a trouper outright. (1 Success)
75% chance of hitting two separate troupers (1 Failure)

-Turn 2-
8.3% chance of killing a second trouper outright (1 success last turn, and then 1 success on the new trouper)
16.7% chance of killing a trouper on the first turn, and damaging two troupers on Turn 2. (1 success last turn, and 1 failure on the new trouper)
18.75% chance you didn't kill any troupers last turn, but kill both troupers hit this turn. (1 failure last turn, 2 success against both damaged troupers)
37.50% chance you didn't kill any troupers last turn, but kill one trouper this turn and damage the remaining two (1 failure last turn, 1 success this turn)
18.75% chance you have 4 troupers still alive, all with 4 armour points left. (3 failures across both turns)

It's been years since I took statistics then, and I don't have the time to plot out five medium lasers but the odds you'll hit the same trouper with all five lasers on the first turn is only 0.39%

It'll work out to around the same number of turns to kill the squad, but you'll cripple the troupers outright faster with the ReMLs, meaning they'll deal less damage to you over that period of time.  I.e, there's a 25% chance the ReMLs will reduce the squad to 3 troupers on the first turn- meaning there's only 3 troupers firing upon you in the second turn instead of 4.

It's the same thing as taking, say, a Gauss Rifle versus an LRM 20 against a light 'mech.  Odds are that they'll deal around the same amount of damage over time, but the Gauss Rifle will likely cripple the light 'mech faster (taking out a leg, or a side torso first while the LRMs will saturate the target).

Your point about only needing one shot to penetrate the armour is a good one.  Assuming a 'mech has 5 armour points on it's rear side torsos and a to-hit of 8:

42% chance of hitting (15/36) and 28% chance of hitting either the Left or Right torso (10/36) means that you have a 22% chance you'll hit with at least one laser and get internals:

18% chance of hitting with both lasers then gives a 48% of hitting a side torso (~9%)
49% chance of hitting with one laser then gives the 28% chance of hitting a side torso (~13%)
33% chance of missing with both lasers (0%). 

The odds that you'll hit 3 out of the 5 MLs and that all three hit the *same* torso?

I'd rather not do the math, but it's clearly a lot lower. 



 

[Diablo48]

...
Your point about only needing one shot to penetrate the armour is a good one.  Assuming a 'mech has 5 armour points on it's rear side torsos and a to-hit of 8:

42% chance of hitting (15/36) and 28% chance of hitting either the Left or Right torso (10/36) means that you have a 22% chance you'll hit with at least one laser and get internals:

18% chance of hitting with both lasers then gives a 48% of hitting a side torso (~9%)
49% chance of hitting with one laser then gives the 28% chance of hitting a side torso (~13%)
33% chance of missing with both lasers (0%). 

The odds that you'll hit 3 out of the 5 MLs and that all three hit the *same* torso?

I'd rather not do the math, but it's clearly a lot lower.

The thing is, this is very much an edge case which makes it a poor argument for the general utility of the systems.  If the target has any other armor value things look a lot better for the ML due to its higher total damage output, and you are also assuming you can get the shot on the rear in the first place which is very much not a given.

[Sid]

The thing is, this is very much an edge case which makes it a poor argument for the general utility of the systems.  If the target has any other armor value things look a lot better for the ML due to its higher total damage output, and you are also assuming you can get the shot on the rear in the first place which is very much not a given.

I never said it wasn't-  I'm concurring with Alex that against the armour they're intended to be used against they are better than regular medium lasers.

You yourself seem to be arguing that the fact that Medium lasers only do 2 points of damage versus the ReML's 6 points of damage here:

That would be because it is irrelevant.  You are grinding through armor the hard way so concentration does not matter, just total output.  The hit tables will scatter the damage over all locations with either system so your average penetration time will be purely dependent on the total damage applied as you wear down every location more or less evenly because you lack hole punchers to create soft spots.

What I find interesting about this is that what I'm debating above is that the ReML *is* a hole puncher.  No less than a ML is against regular armour.

A ML against Reflective armour is 2 damage right?  5 MLs are effectively a SRM5.  A ReML and a SRM6 will work much better against a 'mech in Reflective than 5 MLs and a SRM6- just like a mix of MLs and SRMs work better than either with units with standard armour.

[Diablo48]

I never said it wasn't-  I'm concurring with Alex that against the armour they're intended to be used against they are better than regular medium lasers.

The problem is that they do not actually work better against those armors.  Per the numbers from earlier, the standard mediums are ahead against everything except reflective, and even there the difference is small (20%).  It gets even worse for the Re-lasers when you factor in the internal structure underneath which takes damage like standard armor so that small advantage against reflective armor is going to disappear when you factor in how quickly you go through the IS underneath to actually kill the unit, and the near-draw with hardened clearly shifts in favor of the standard.

You yourself seem to be arguing that the fact that Medium lasers only do 2 points of damage versus the ReML's 6 points of damage here:

What I find interesting about this is that what I'm debating above is that the ReML *is* a hole puncher.  No less than a ML is against regular armour.

The only armor type it becomes a hole puncher against is hardened at 12 points of effective damage (reflective is better penetrated by ballistic weapons like the Gauss Rifle), but hardened designs tend to have so much armor that it does not help you anyways.  After all, penetrating power is based on the proportion of the total armor dealt by the weapon and hardened gives a lot more total armor to penetrate so it is proportionally just a 6-point weapon which is hardly a hole puncher.  Thus you are back to grinding through the armor the hard way, just like I said before.

[mutantmagnet]

I look at these stats and only regard the RE-Large as worthwhile.

At the end of the day you have to determine what would be the most common gear.

There is no reason for the vast majority of clan mechs, vehicles or fighters to be equipped with anything else but Ferrolamellar.

For those designs FL should be regarded as the new normal armor and everything else is niche.

The IS doesn't have armor nearly as good so no-crit armor still remains as the gold standard.

Against the clans, RE-Large has a substantial advantage over regular lasers and a minor one over even the X-pulse large laser even after you factor in the better to hit modifier.

Against the IS just stick to standard lasers as your general purpose weapon.

Never use RE-medium lasers. They are lemons.

For fitting purposes RE-smalls are viable because trading away crits for heat when compared to small or even ER small lasers offers you so much that their general under-performance can be managed.

[Diablo48]

I look at these stats and only regard the RE-Large as worthwhile.

At the end of the day you have to determine what would be the most common gear.

There is no reason for the vast majority of clan mechs, vehicles or fighters to be equipped with anything else but Ferrolamellar.

For those designs FL should be regarded as the new normal armor and everything else is niche.

The IS doesn't have armor nearly as good so no-crit armor still remains as the gold standard.

Against the clans, RE-Large has a substantial advantage over regular lasers and a minor one over even the X-pulse large laser even after you factor in the better to hit modifier.

Against the IS just stick to standard lasers as your general purpose weapon.

Never use RE-medium lasers. They are lemons.

For fitting purposes RE-smalls are viable because trading away crits for heat when compared to small or even ER small lasers offers you so much that their general under-performance can be managed.

Actually, per the numbers from earlier, FL armor is never worth attacking with RE-lasers.  Even the large comes out slightly behind the standards, and that is neglecting damage to the IS underneath which behaves like standard armor.

That said, you do bring up a decent point about packing with the small.  There are not many options for filling 1.5 tons and 1 crit so it may be your best option, although I would generally rather play with the armor to get a standard Medium Laser/Flamer/ER Flamer or a MPL/MXPL when possible.

[imperator]

In my mind there is nothing any more wrong with Relasers than any other weapon. I'm an auto cannon guy. I love AC 10s and 20s. Especially Ultras. There are always threads where the ACs are looked down upon because of weight inefficiency. I still win with them and even when I lose, the flash bulbs no they've been been in a fight!  Why? My style of combat, my experience, and my lucks. So run the numbers, I like seeing them. But I'll believe they sucks when I see them lose battles ALL THE TIME. -Unofficial member if the AC/5 mafia.

[CloaknDagger]

In my mind there is nothing any more wrong with Relasers than any other weapon. I'm an auto cannon guy. I love AC 10s and 20s. Especially Ultras. There are always threads where the ACs are looked down upon because of weight inefficiency. I still win with them and even when I lose, the flash bulbs no they've been been in a fight!  Why? My style of combat, my experience, and my lucks. So run the numbers, I like seeing them. But I'll believe they sucks when I see them lose battles ALL THE TIME. -Unofficial member if the AC/5 mafia.

Heh, now that you mention it, the ReLarge Laser is now, more than ever, making the AC10 obsolete as well.

It's 13 tons after DHS are taken into account, and the bonus to the specialty armors makes up for the lack of alternate ammos. And it still isn't explosive.

[Diablo48]

In my mind there is nothing any more wrong with Relasers than any other weapon. I'm an auto cannon guy. I love AC 10s and 20s. Especially Ultras. There are always threads where the ACs are looked down upon because of weight inefficiency. I still win with them and even when I lose, the flash bulbs no they've been been in a fight!  Why? My style of combat, my experience, and my lucks. So run the numbers, I like seeing them. But I'll believe they sucks when I see them lose battles ALL THE TIME. -Unofficial member if the AC/5 mafia.

Honestly, the Re-lasers are worse than the ACs.  Even the -5 was a viable weapon in the right situation when it was introduced (which no canon designs came anywhere close to doing), but the small and medium Re-lasers are 100% useless even in the situation they were designed for because it is more effective to brute force the armor with the standard models.

Heh, now that you mention it, the ReLarge Laser is now, more than ever, making the AC10 obsolete as well.

It's 13 tons after DHS are taken into account, and the bonus to the specialty armors makes up for the lack of alternate ammos. And it still isn't explosive.

Not really.  The special munitions give the the AC an edge the laser cannot match, and the big reason to use the laser is reflective armor which the AC ignores.

[CloaknDagger]

Not really.  The special munitions give the the AC an edge the laser cannot match, and the big reason to use the laser is reflective armor which the AC ignores.

Hardened and Lamellor.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Better off with old school vanilla lasers.

[CloaknDagger]

Better off with old school vanilla lasers.

Well, the ReLarge Laser at least can strip armor on a head, and penetrate some areas on lighter mechs.

More damage per hit is just more satisfying.

[SCC]

Hardened and Lamellor.

Use Armor-Piercing Ammo and those AC's get the same effect as RE-Lasers but for only an extra ton or two and they are still able to function as normal weapons of their type

And the -10 and -20 are actually the better AC's, the ten is only 20% heavier then the damage it does and the 20 actually does more damage then it weighs

[CloaknDagger]

Use Armor-Piercing Ammo and those AC's get the same effect as RE-Lasers but for only an extra ton or two and they are still able to function as normal weapons of their type

???

No, AP ammo is negated by those armors specifically.