Re-engineered Lasers

[Arkansas Warrior]

Yes, that's why it was never used on any design, right?

That was never my argument.  Almost all canon designs are intentionally suboptimal.  But let's not pretend that ReLasers are anything but an extremely niche weapon system that's almost always outclassed by older, cheaper, more common weapons.

[Sabelkatten]

And as J have shown, that is a flawed metric that only works when you're up against a single slab of armor.  It's the difference between theory and practice.  And in practice, my ReML will blow through the rear torso armor of that Rokurokubi in one hit.  Your medium lasers?  Won't.

It's a very relevant metric, considering that it specifically states ReLasers are better against reflec. Meaning any counter-example using reflec is meaningless. It's already been addressed.

Now, the relevant factors are:

1) How much difference is there between standard and ReLasers against given armor types?

2) How common are said armor types?

Since I don't have the later TROs I can't say how common each type of armor is, but I figure assuming a nice even split should be more than fair to the ReLasers. And what does that give us?

Standard MLs beat RMLs by so much it ain't funny against half of the targets, comes out fairly equal against a quarter of the targets (better crit-seeking and internal damage against better penetration), and lose out by a pretty small margin against the last quarter of targets for the same reasons.

So, should I take a weapon that gives me a massive advantage against most enemies, or a weapon that gives me a small advantage against a very limited number of enemies? I think I'll take option #1...

As noted things change in space since you don't really risk the damage types reflec is vulnerable to (or do Arrow IV, arty cannons and so on do AE damage in AT2 combat?). This makes reflec a very good choice in space, which in turn makes ReLasers a good option. Especially since you can't critseek as in groundcombat any longer.

[Alexander Knight]

Sigh.  Each and every one of your arguments also pertains to the ML vs MPL debate.  Or even the MLspam vs AC/20.  Nobody has said that the RE-ML is an all-round better gun.  The standard medium laser is absurdly good for it's tonnage and heat buildup.

[Sabelkatten]

Sigh.  Each and every one of your arguments also pertains to the ML vs MPL debate.  Or even the MLspam vs AC/20.  Nobody has said that the RE-ML is an all-round better gun.  The standard medium laser is absurdly good for it's tonnage and heat buildup.

I responded to the claim that the the comparison between the ML and RML, which showed the ML beats the RML significantly unless you're either fighting reflec armor or trying to get penetrating damage against hardened armor, was somehow wrong. The only mention I made of the MPL is that I rather like that weapon!

And the argument isn't about the RML being an "all-around better gun", it's about the RML (and RSL) being an all-around worse gun - because you're so much more likely to face off against something else than reflec armor it's essentially never worth mounting! Which is why the post I quoted said that "the only ReLaser worth mounting is the Large", that being the one that has a significant advantage against the types of armor it's designed to defeat.

It really comes down to game design in the end. Work hard to make game features that provides useful, interesting, options - or fill books with things that are essentially pointless other than from a fluff PoW. CBT has traditionally stayed with the second variant - which has been fine, since the fluff is usually interesting and it's easy enough to houserule things if you prefer the first variant - but it's what leads up to all those arguments.

[CloaknDagger]

It really comes down to game design in the end. Work hard to make game features that provides useful, interesting, options - or fill books with things that are essentially pointless other than from a fluff PoW. CBT has traditionally stayed with the second variant - which has been fine, since the fluff is usually interesting and it's easy enough to houserule things if you prefer the first variant - but it's what leads up to all those arguments.

Except Relasers AREN'T "essentially pointless other than from a fluff PoV". The idea was that they would actually be used, but they were badly designed so as to be useless by MISTAKE, not on purpose.

If they wanted it to be a fluff thing, it would do something like triple regular damage against specialty armors and half against standard. Then it would be super specialized like the 50000 ton Super-ECM that was used in the Star League Civil War to fight the CASPAR drones.

[Alexander Knight]

Again.  2 ReML is 4 crits and 14 heat.  5 ML is 5 crits and 15 heat.  Advantage, ReML.

Is it a great advantage?  Not really.  Does it exist?  Absolutely.

[CloaknDagger]

Again.  2 ReML is 4 crits and 14 heat.  5 ML is 5 crits and 15 heat.  Advantage, ReML.

Is it a great advantage?  Not really.  Does it exist?  Absolutely.

Relasers are about as good as Inner Sphere Pulse Lasers. That is to say, not at all.

(Well, to be fair the Small Pulse Laser is actually useful. The Small ReLaser on the other hand...)

[Arkansas Warrior]

Except Relasers AREN'T "essentially pointless other than from a fluff PoV". The idea was that they would actually be used, but they were badly designed so as to be useless by MISTAKE, not on purpose.

If they wanted it to be a fluff thing, it would do something like triple regular damage against specialty armors and half against standard. Then it would be super specialized like the 50000 ton Super-ECM that was used in the Star League Civil War to fight the CASPAR drones.

Do we have this from a PTB source?  I have a hard time they'd proliferate and show up on designs if they were a mistake.  That's when you say "well, this prototype was a dead end" and cut funding.

[CloaknDagger]

Do we have this from a PTB source?  I have a hard time they'd proliferate and show up on designs if they were a mistake.  That's when you say "well, this prototype was a dead end" and cut funding.

Exactly. That's why they don't make sense as they are. They need to be buffed or treated as the dead end they are.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Who wants to run the numbers on Re-engineered lasers versus standard when the to-hit numbers are factored in?

for example, if you need an 8 or better to hit, each weapon is dealing 15/36 damage.  Need a 9, and it's 10/36.

Needing 8s to hit, for example, 2 medium lasers and 1 small will do on average a total of 5.4 damage across 3 rolls, or 1.8 damage per weapon .  A single re-engineered med laser will do on average 2.5 per turn, in all-or-nothing rolls-to-hit. 

What's that I hear?  With more rolls to hit, I'm more likely to get at least 1 hit rather than the all or nothing? Sure.  Your 'DPS' is indeed higher, but when it comes to breaching armor, 'burst damage' is better. 

What else is that I hear?  That math is bunk, because weapons always deal full damage?  Ok, look at it this way then.
Odds of getting both medium lasers and small laser to hit while needing 8s:
all 3 and do 13 damage: 7.2%
2 of the 3 (assume both mediums hit, for 10 damage): 17.2%
at least one of the three: ~65.9%

Odds of getting a hit with re-engineered laser for the full 6 damage: 41.66%

[CloaknDagger]

Who wants to run the numbers on Re-engineered lasers versus standard when the to-hit numbers are factored in?

To quote:

I just run the number, the only RE laser that seems worth taking is the large,  medium and small get a very small advantage against reflective armor but lose against all other types.

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Small Lasers
comparison 1 RE vs 3 std
       weigth          crits      heat
RE      1.5t             1          5
std     1.5t             3          3

damage against different armor types
              normal armor           laser-reflective       ferro-lamellor    hardened
RE                  4                        4                     4             4
std                 9                        3                     6             4.5


Code: [Select]

Medium Lasers
comparison 2 RE vs 5 std
       weigth          crits      heat
RE       5t              4         14
std      5t              5         15

damage against different armor types
              normal armor           laser-reflective       ferro-lamellor    hardened
RE                 12                       12                    12             12
std                25                       10                    20            12.5


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Large Lasers
comparison 5 RE vs 8 std
       weigth          crits      heat
RE       40t             10        50
std      40t             16        64

damage against different armor types
              normal armor           laser-reflective       ferro-lamellor    hardened
RE                 45                       45                    45             45
std                64                       32                    48             32

The to hit numbers mean very little because they all have the same range and thus will hit the same percentage of the time.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

To quote:

The to hit numbers mean very little because they all have the same range and thus will hit the same percentage of the time.

I don't know if you replied too quick or simply didn't understand what I'm getting at.

When we have the same to-hit numbers, but varying damage values, it does impact the damage actually dealt.  The higher the to-hit number, the better the Re-engineered laser performs compared to a greater number of std lasers with higher maximum damage potential.  The lower the to-hit number, yes the worse it performs.  All the way down to an impossible but theoretical 100% to hit chance your quoted numbers assume.

For example, allow me to correct one of your quoted charts:

Code: [Select]

Medium Lasers
comparison 2 RE vs 5 std
       weigth          crits      heat
RE       5t              4         14
std      5t              5         15

damage against different armor types at 2+ to hit
              normal armor           laser-reflective       ferro-lamellor    hardened
RE                 12                       12                    12             12
std                25                       10                    20            12.5

damage against different armor types at 8+  to hit
              normal armor           laser-reflective       ferro-lamellor    hardened
RE                 4.99                       4.99                    4.99           4.99
std                10.41                       5.2                    5.41            5.2
As you can see, the raw damage dealt is much less pronounced in actuality.  Then remember, as I elaborated in my previous post, you're going to breach armor faster with the re-lasers... even if you might be better at crit-seeking due to more damage over more hits with the std lasers.

[CloaknDagger]

I don't know if you replied too quick or simply didn't understand what I'm getting at.

When we have the same to-hit numbers, but varying damage values, it does impact the damage actually dealt.  The higher the to-hit number, the better the Re-engineered laser performs compared to a greater number of std lasers with higher maximum damage potential.  The lower the to-hit number, yes the worse it performs.  All the way down to an impossible but theoretical 100% to hit chance your quoted numbers assume.

No, it doesn't. Over an X number of turns shooting, it will have about the same hit percentage.

It doesn't matter if you have 1 gun that does 1 million damage or a million guns that do 1 damage, if they have an accuracy of 50%, then you will do about 500000 damage a turn.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

No, it doesn't. Over an X number of turns shooting, it will have about the same hit percentage.

It doesn't matter if you have 1 gun that does 1 million damage or a million guns that do 1 damage, if they have an accuracy of 50%, then you will do about 500000 damage a turn.

You're really close to getting it.

It most certainly does matter if you do X damage all at once or X damage over the course of a possible Y hits, even at the same to hit chance.  Especially when gimmick armors are in play.

[CloaknDagger]

You're really close to getting it.

It most certainly does matter if you do X damage all at once or X damage over the course of a possible Y hits, even at the same to hit chance.  Especially when gimmick armors are in play.

No, it only matters for thresholing.

For anything else, it's meaningless, because your super awesome million damage gun might completely miss while the smaller ones will always have some hit.

[Alexander Knight]

No, it only matters for thresholing.

For anything else, it's meaningless, because your super awesome million damage gun might completely miss while the smaller ones will always have some hit.

Untrue.  Multiple attempts does not ensure at least one success.

[CloaknDagger]

Untrue.  Multiple attempts does not ensure at least one success.

Exactly! Your super-gun could miss turn after turn after turn!

[Alexander Knight]

Exactly! Your super-gun could miss turn after turn after turn!

...and your multitude of smaller guns can miss completely.

[CloaknDagger]

...and your multitude of smaller guns can miss completely.

Not likely. They'll hit at about the average most of the time.

Or, I could use the linked weapon rule and have them all hit or miss at the same time.

[Alexander Knight]

Not likely. They'll hit at about the average most of the time.

I've missed with a Rifleman's entire arsenal on 4s.  It.  Can.  Happen.

Or, I could use the linked weapon rule and have them all hit or miss at the same time.

Only if your opponent agrees.

[CloaknDagger]

Only if your opponent agrees.

Again, it doesn't really matter. The entire reason that rule exists is because their is no difference between hitting everything and missing everything, and just hitting the average repeatedly. The Damage over time is the same.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I've missed with a Rifleman's entire arsenal on 4s.  It.  Can.  Happen.

It can happen to either party.  It's more likely to happen to the one firing fewer weapons.

[Alexander Knight]

It can happen to either party.  It's more likely to happen to the one firing fewer weapons.

Sure, but that's not the point now is it?  Reread the posts above.  CnD was arguing that he would hit with some of his smaller weapons even if  the larger gun missed on the same numbers.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

No, it only matters for thresholing...

You're looking right at it and refusing to see it.

Is it better to deal more damage in smaller hits, or perhaps slightly less damage in fewer but bigger hits?  The answer is, "it depends".  The answer isn't "it's always better to deal more damage over more hits". 

It's the same argument (but on a lesser degree) to the 14 medium lasers damage vs 1 AC/20 damage 'debate'.

[CloaknDagger]

You're looking right at it and refusing to see it.

Is it better to deal more damage in smaller hits, or perhaps slightly less damage in fewer but bigger hits?  The answer is, "it depends".  The answer isn't "it's always better to deal more damage over more hits". 

It's the same argument (but on a lesser degree) to the 14 medium lasers damage vs 1 AC/20 damage 'debate'.

The answer is only if an AC20 can threshold.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The answer is only if an AC20 can threshold.

Well, if you want to consider yourself smarter than the entire playtesting team that found re-engineered lasers balanced for play & can see the 'plainly obvious' that they all missed, clearly I can't convince you otherwise.

No sweat off my back if you want to consider them worthless & never use them, so I'm done here.  Peace :)

[Diablo48]

And, most importantly for anyone fighting DC troops, hardened armor. It does 100% damage to Ferro-Lamellor, the new armor champ of the universe.

To me, Re-Lasers aren't reinventing the wheel or replacing ER lasers at all. But dang if they won't ruin some Dracs day. And that is all I'm looking to do with them!

The problem is that the RE lasers always loose against FL armor while the medium and small draw against hardened so (outside of edge case thresholds) they do not actually beat those armor types.  The numbers are on page 1 if you want to look at them.

[Alexander Knight]

The problem is that the RE lasers always loose against FL armor while the medium and small draw against hardened so (outside of edge case thresholds) they do not actually beat those armor types.  The numbers are on page 1 if you want to look at them.

Assuming infinite blocks of armor.
Assuming 100% hit ratios for both weapon classes
Assuming 100% concentration on the same location for the standard lasers.

Assumptions 1 and 3 are pretty big ones.

[SCC]

If these where available as infantry weapons would they be any good?

[Diablo48]

Assuming infinite blocks of armor.
Assuming 100% hit ratios for both weapon classes
Assuming 100% concentration on the same location for the standard lasers.

Assumptions 1 and 3 are pretty big ones.

I said I was neglecting the edge case of armor thresholds which is generally a good assumption for small weapons which have to grind through armor rather than instantly penetrating it which only really happens with 15+ point clusters, especially against larger designs.

Also, hit ratios are irrelevant because both weapon classes have identical range/accuracy profiles so the hit rate will always be the same and reduce the average damage by the same percentage in any given situation.

If these where available as infantry weapons would they be any good?

Not unless they got serious relative weight reductions.