Author Topic: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger  (Read 36484 times)

truetanker

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #30 on: 15 December 2022, 03:14:39 »

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Fat Guy

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #31 on: 15 December 2022, 10:26:25 »
Meanwhile in the Draconis Combine...

I have spoken.


Daryk

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #32 on: 15 December 2022, 18:27:53 »
The O5P wins again!  :D

chanman

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #33 on: 15 December 2022, 18:46:23 »
AMX-30 museum exhibit with the tank in its Desert Storm colours


Failure16

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #34 on: 15 December 2022, 19:27:06 »
Love the camo the 6e DLB wore during Desert Storm. To this day it forms the basis of my conception of Davion desert colors, not to mention my go-to for any basic desert scheme.

Here is a short documentary about the French light armored division that served in the Gulf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDMnIMolMbc

Interesting to note, chanman, that this harkens back to an earlier discussion about professional soldiers (vice conscripts) only being used in French expeditionary ops.

(Oh, and thanks for the heads-up in the last thread about the new OPFOR vehicles. If they ever get real French armor, I'll have to go hiking out that way and get lost during a rotation day.)
« Last Edit: 15 December 2022, 21:33:59 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
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chanman

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #35 on: 15 December 2022, 19:52:05 »
Love the camo the 6e DLB wore during Desert Storm. To this day it forms the basis of my conception of Davion desert colors, not to mention my go-to for any basic desert scheme.

Here is a short documentary about the French light armored division that served in the Gulf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDMnIMolMbc

Interesting to note, chanman, that this harkens back to an earlier discussion about professional soldiers (vice conscripts) only being used in French expeditionary ops.

(Oh, and thanks for the heads-up in the last thread about the new OPFOR vehicles. If they ever get real French armor, I'll have to go hiking out that way and get lost during a rotation day.)

Think you've accidentally used email tags for your link. Somehow, I can see you putting around in a vizmod SUV made to look like a VBL   :D

Daryk

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #36 on: 15 December 2022, 19:59:57 »
Confirmed e-mail tags, and second chanman on the vizmod SUV!  :D

Failure16

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #37 on: 15 December 2022, 21:37:04 »
Fixed tags and will be looking into vismodding an Outback into something suitably VABish* or a VBLalogue.






Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Prospernia

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #38 on: 17 December 2022, 22:02:40 »
In war-games, I love AMX-30s; they are light and can move around and can actually take out another tank with their cannon. Just, don't get hit.


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Garrand

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #39 on: 17 December 2022, 22:06:51 »
In war-games, I love AMX-30s; they are light and can move around and can actually take out another tank with their cannon. Just, don't get hit.

I've built the Heller AMX-30 maybe half a dozen times. Goes together reasonably well, but those wire stowage racks on the side of the turret are always pretty rough...

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #40 on: 17 December 2022, 22:51:02 »
In war-games, I love AMX-30s; they are light and can move around and can actually take out another tank with their cannon. Just, don't get hit.

I remember back when I was still playing World of Tanks and someone in an AMX-30 got the bright idea of ramming my T-150.

Running a French lawnmower into a giant block of Soviet steel was not a good idea.
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chanman

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #41 on: 17 December 2022, 23:07:07 »
Here's a bit of an oddball mix:

The Royal Jordanian army is retiring its aging but upgraded Challenger 1 MBTs (Al-Hussein) and replacing them with a mix of surplus Italian B1 Centauros and... donated LeClercs from the UAE. The LeClercs and retirement probably also mean the Falcon low-profile turret project never really got acceptable results. The transfer from the UAE is recent enough that I'm having trouble finding pictures.

Jordanian Challenger 1 with a Falcon turret. RUAG 120mm L50 smoothbore 120mm gun with an autoloader



Normal Al-Husseins


Upgraded M60 covered in ERA blocks. Looks like the underlying turret shape resembles the Israeli Magach

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #42 on: 17 December 2022, 23:57:27 »
Have any of these upgrades seen actual use?
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #43 on: 18 December 2022, 02:30:44 »


The Char 2C.  France's massive land barge, the only vehicle that was classified as a super-heavy tank that ever actually made it into production.  Didn't actually get built soon enough to fight in the First World War, but still got an actual production run unlike other super-heavies like the Maus and T-28.  Though despite being designated a super-heavy it was still lighter than some vehicles that served in World War Two and is only a couple tons heavier than the current M1 Abrams kit.

Had a 12 man crew and by length, width, height, and volume the largest operational tank ever built.

Quite frankly, with tracks more than thirty feet long, I wonder how it actually turned.
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Failure16

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #44 on: 18 December 2022, 06:08:55 »
I would imagine it turned nearly on a dime. Okay, a really big dime...

But still, since tracked vehicles (or any skid-steer vehicle, really) turn effectively at the mid-point of their tracks or motive apparatus, there shouldn't be a significant change in the length of the tracks versus their turning ability.

chanman, Centauro B1s in the desert? Yes, please.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
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chanman

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #45 on: 18 December 2022, 06:26:29 »
I would imagine it turned nearly on a dime. Okay, a really big dime...

But still, since tracked vehicles (or any skid-steer vehicle, really) turn effectively at the mid-point of their tracks or motive apparatus, there shouldn't be a significant change in the length of the tracks versus their turning ability.

chanman, Centauro B1s in the desert? Yes, please.




What's the deal with the Centauro IIs? 120mm smoothbore, but a 2-man turret. That turret is definitely not storing rounds in the bustle, so I'm guessing loader and gunner/commander?

Centauro and Cenatauro II


gyedid

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #46 on: 18 December 2022, 23:48:29 »
*scratches head*

Is the Centauro the real-life inspiration for the BT Chevalier wheeled tank?

cheers,

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Failure16

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #47 on: 18 December 2022, 23:53:25 »
Naw, the Chevy is more Rooikat:

Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

chanman

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #48 on: 19 December 2022, 00:45:22 »
Panhard EBR



MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #49 on: 19 December 2022, 01:08:45 »
How does that vehicle engage the inner wheels?  Do they get lowered down to the ground or do the outer wheels retract?
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chanman

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #50 on: 19 December 2022, 01:31:30 »
How does that vehicle engage the inner wheels?  Do they get lowered down to the ground or do the outer wheels retract?

Inner wheels are lowered. They're for off-road use only - note the complete lack of tires

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #51 on: 19 December 2022, 02:22:41 »
I figured that.  They look like something that would be used for marshy or sandy terrain where those rather thin-looking tires would start experiencing problems.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #52 on: 19 December 2022, 03:14:01 »
i'd argue that the 8x8 with a tank turret in general was the inspiration for the BT unit. though profile wise it looks more like some of the Swiss MOWAG Shark prototypes.

Daryk

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #53 on: 19 December 2022, 06:57:42 »
The wheel arrangement leads me to agree with F16.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #54 on: 19 December 2022, 08:09:44 »
I would imagine it turned nearly on a dime. Okay, a really big dime...

But still, since tracked vehicles (or any skid-steer vehicle, really) turn effectively at the mid-point of their tracks or motive apparatus, there shouldn't be a significant change in the length of the tracks versus their turning ability.
actually, a lot of the earlier tracked vehicles like that were not designed with neutral steering, and thus couldn't turn on a dime in the way you are suggested, instead being steered by a clutch and brake system, which basically removed the power to one tread when turning, requiring them to keep moving forward as they turn. with such a system, the longer the tracks, the shallower the turns they could do without throwing a tread.

steering through a Double differential system, which maintains power to both treads the whole time and allow you to put the treads at differernt speed to turn, even put one tread in reverse to turn in place, was a cutting edge feature mostly pioneered by the Germans with designs like the Tiger and Panther, as well as some british ones like the Churchill, only after the war becoming fairly standard.


Prospernia

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #55 on: 19 December 2022, 12:42:10 »
Is it just me, or does the Panhard look like it as a space for a driver at each end?

BairdEC

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #56 on: 19 December 2022, 13:25:49 »
It doesn't just look like it, it does have two drivers. 

Is it just me, or does the Panhard look like it as a space for a driver at each end?

Failure16

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #57 on: 19 December 2022, 23:19:17 »
actually, a lot of the earlier tracked vehicles like that were not designed with neutral steering, and thus couldn't turn on a dime in the way you are suggested, instead being steered by a clutch and brake system, which basically removed the power to one tread when turning, requiring them to keep moving forward as they turn. with such a system, the longer the tracks, the shallower the turns they could do without throwing a tread.

steering through a Double differential system, which maintains power to both treads the whole time and allow you to put the treads at differernt speed to turn, even put one tread in reverse to turn in place, was a cutting edge feature mostly pioneered by the Germans with designs like the Tiger and Panther, as well as some british ones like the Churchill, only after the war becoming fairly standard.

Funny you should mention the double differential method of tank-steering, since the French developed it in 1921. The Char B1 had a continuously variable output for its tracks allied to a hydrostatic transmission. During trials, the Char 2C did indeed experience track slippage in tight turns (it used a different engine for each track, by the way; interestingly they eventually became Maybachs, which Panzer fans will notice as being familiar) but it never once actually threw a track.

As far as I can tell, the Char 2C used a controlled differential, whereupon there are effectively two gears (epicyclic gearing) with an idler wheel, the second of which is clutched in or out so that power isn't wasted. This system--with the usual operator-controls being two wands--is typified by the M113 series or armored vehicles. I will submit that the Char 2C was a beast and certainly not fast (10-15 kph max) nor particularly mobile (whether that last issue was a concomitant of its great weight, the size of its tracks, or insufficient track-shoe articulation is open for debate.

And "turning on a dime" is relative. There are videos of Char 2Cs in motion, but not too many of them turning, so I am not sure we will ever know for certain. But a tracked vehicle of a given size turns more closely than an equivalently sized wheeled vehicle. And you will note that I never stated that tracked vehicles or other skid-steer vehicles could all turn from a stand-still/idle. But I bet the Char 2C could, though it might be painful to watch. For what it is worth, it is relatively rare for any tracked military vehicle to neutral steer completely in place as it puts too much strain of the individual shoes and track-pins holding them together, thereby risks throwing a track.

For example, take a look at this St. Chamond in 2017:

https://youtu.be/sFTUkmj3gaU

https://youtu.be/1jkYUUGK09I

Not moving around too badly for a 100-year old fighting lady when you think about it.

Here is its replacement, a little guy that can skid steer wherever you want:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=GdPb5PCpivE&embeds_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2F&embeds_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

PsihoKekec

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #58 on: 20 December 2022, 01:36:39 »
Is it just me, or does the Panhard look like it as a space for a driver at each end?
It goes back to pre-WWII French doctrine for armored recon, basically their armor only protects against small arms fire and they were expected to encounter the enemy main force alone. Add to this that this might happen on narrow country roads with obstacles on both sides, so it was thought that the best chance for vehicle to survive long enough to report back, was to light up the enemy and go in other direction at full speed, thus two drivers and heavy armament. Gearbox was rather complicated and maintenance was not simple though.
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chanman

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #59 on: 20 December 2022, 13:58:19 »
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