Would the Society have used Super Heavies?

[truetanker]

Like the question states, would they if they had them?

I'm talking Dig Lord mods and the Matar mech?

TT

[dgorsman]

I don't think so.  Very resource intensive for what they do, without much clear benefit against the warrior caste.  And vulnerable to Elementals.

[Wrangler]

I think it possible. They were mad scientists. Having a Godzilla size BattleMech spewing fusion fire.

[Cannonshop]

Like the question states, would they if they had them?

I'm talking Dig Lord mods and the Matar mech?

TT

Fundamental rule here: 

1.  Clanners will get to do everything you can do  (rotary autocannon, etc.) even when it violates their tactical doctrine (C3, Artillery) lighter, better or longer ranged (Pick 2)...even when (Especially when) they have no reason to do so.

so yes.

[Fat Guy]

The Society would have used everything and anything they could get their hands on.

So another yes.

[glitterboy2098]

could they have done it? probably. they certainly could have developed it.
did they? probably not. remember most of their weapons tech was derived from stuff they'd done "for the warriors". ATM's, CEWS, Heavy lasers, etc. or were applications of existing tech that they had the specs for but warriors weren't interested in. Null sig Chameleon light polarization shield, etc. even the weaponized HPG's. they took these techs and applied them to their own designs produced in small shop production set ups so the warriors would not notice.
it would have been hard for them to develop the technology behind superheavy mechs without it being noticed by the warriors. so i doubt that they spent much time on the idea. even if they had, such large units were not well suited to the kind of secretive operations they used.

they appeared to focus more on protomech development, with their ultra heavy proto's offering capabiltieis close to mechs while being much easier to produce and hide.

honestly given the events of the novel Freebirth, i am surprised we didn't see Society LAM's, even if just a handful of them. perhaps that data was used for the creation of the Glider protomechs.

[Greatclub]

Depends which faction of the society. The bunch that hung out with the assault-loving coyotes? Maybe.

The guys running around in the bush playing hounds and hares with the warriors? Waste of metal from their perspective

[Natasha Kerensky]

Would the Society have used superheavy mechs if they had them?  Sure.  Superheavies could pack more firepower into a three-unit Nova CEWS network.  They could take more damage than other Clan mechs and thus extend the Society’s physical resources and limited pool of qualified mechwarriors.  And in the early going, superheavies would present a severe challenge to the Clan preference for one-on-one combat.  (A properly designed, Clantech, 3/5 superheavy would also have been more mobile than the Osteon in built-up terrain, carried more firepower, and potentially lasted longer.)

The more important question is whether the Society could have and would have built superheavies?  I think the jury is out on that one.

If you read the fluff carefully, the Society spent little of its relatively limited resources on specialized, high-tech mechs like the Osteon and Cephalus.  The bulk of the Society’s mech resources went into a variety of smaller protomechs and the easier-to-produce Septicemia.  The bulk of the Society’s new mech production averaged well under 50 tons.

Given that the Society’s main (only?) omnimech factory on Strana Mechty was a forgotten and refurbished old Clan factory, I also question whether the Society even had a facility with the tolerances and clearances (crane weights, door sizes, etc.) to handle mechs significantly larger than assault-class (80-100 tons).  They certainly would have had a hard time hiding the construction of such a new factory.

There’s also the question of whether and how the Society would have even known about the WoB’s superheavies on Terra, nevertheless have gotten hold of their superheavy chassis and myomer technology.  I doubt the dates line up for tech transfer (inadvertent or otherwise) from the WoB to the Society, and two completely independent developments in the same Jihad/WoR timeframe seems unlikely.

For all those reasons, I’m very skeptical the Society would have chosen to build, or even been capable of building (or even been aware of the possibility of building), superheavies. 

But I’ll also admit that some clever fluff could fix this.  Something like, “Society Cell ABC redirected DropShuttle Factory XYZ towards superheavy mech production after staging a false flag Bandit Caste raid that supposedly interrupted dropshuttle supply and manufacture for several years, but in fact did no actual damage whatsoever.” 

You’d also need fluff on how the Society got WoB superheavy chassis and myomer technology, or at least the inspiration for such.  (That’s tougher.)

Fluff its origins reasonably like that, design a bigger, badder, better Osteon, and then sure, I’d buy into an alt-history Society using superheavies.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

honestly given the events of the novel Freebirth, i am surprised we didn't see Society LAM's, even if just a handful of them. perhaps that data was used for the creation of the Glider protomechs.

CLAMs required a two-seat cockpit arrangement and the Society was noted to be short on pilots, so that probably was enough to convince them to focus on other projects.  Like, as you said, the Glider protomechs.

[RifleMech]

I think it's possible that the Society could have experimented with Superheavies. Their size would allow them to carry a lot of weaponry and armor. The Tripods would also give an automatic command and control by having a commander onboard. Their having separate pilot and gunner would also allow a wider pool of candidates to pilot/crew their mechs.

I don't think they would have resorted to stealing WoB technology either. I'm sure they'd of heard of the Three Legged Digging Machine. So they'd know Superheavies are possible. I'm also sure that they'd have the plans for the Matar so they could have created their own Superheavies.

I don't think there would have been many of them though as they use up so much materials in their construction. But I can imagine a few of them being like I can imagine a few Clan LAMs too. I think both would have very small numbers though and would probably only be used by a few Society cells.

[Wrangler]

If the Superheavy BattleMech / OmniMech is attempted, the Society scientist have to figure out if they want to use their ProtoMech pilots try pilot the things since you need the VR related stuff to make it work as a single mech mode (Transzor Z/Magaziner Z) or do they have punish their underling warriors work as a TEAM a do a 3-man arrangement.

[glitterboy2098]

CLAMs required a two-seat cockpit arrangement and the Society was noted to be short on pilots, so that probably was enough to convince them to focus on other projects.  Like, as you said, the Glider protomechs.

the two seat LAMs were a compromise used to accommodate the warrior caste's hidebound tradition of separating mech and aero pilot training. as specifically stated in the novel. (it was also the reason given for why the project failed, that the two pilot set up caused issues with the individualistic warriors being unable to work together to use the LAM properly)
a Society LAM project would be using 'off the books' sibkos that could be trained specifically with both skillsets so as to use a LAM with one pilot. (we know that the clans retain the manual for LAM training as the Goliath Scorpions trained the Wolf's Dragoons using star league training manuals, and the WD's included a sizeable number of LAMs as they were a notable part of the SLDF's regimental level operations.)

[Natasha Kerensky]

(we know that the clans retain the manual for LAM training as the Goliath Scorpions trained the Wolf's Dragoons using star league training manuals

Do we really know that?  Or is this just inference?

It’s certainly a possibility.  But do we know that some Goon warriors were trained for LAMs in Homeworlds (whether using SLDF training tools, Scorp trainers, or something else)?

Is this actually stated somewhere?

and the WD's included a sizeable number of LAMs as they were a notable part of the SLDF's regimental level operations.)

Did those LAMs come from the Homeworlds?  Or were those LAMs salvaged/captured/bought by the Goons after the Goons arrived in the Inner Sphere?

Were those LAM pilots Clan warriors from the Homeworlds?  Or were those LAM pilot Spheroids who joined the Goons after the Goons arrived in the Inner Sphere?

[glitterboy2098]

Field Manual: Warden Clans (p. 106, "Seeking the Past") talks about the Dragoon's training. the Goliath Scorpions used their elite Heartvenon Cluster as instructors and opfor during the training.

and the presence of so many LAMs in the dragoons was one of the oddities the IS noticed when they first arrived. (alongside the high skill level, new designs, and regiments of pristine equipment)

[Natasha Kerensky]

Field Manual: Warden Clans (p. 106, "Seeking the Past") talks about the Dragoon's training. the Goliath Scorpions used their elite Heartvenon Cluster as instructors and opfor during the training.

Sure, but there’s no reference to LAM training for the Goons in the Homeworlds, by the Scorps or otherwise, right?

and the presence of so many LAMs in the dragoons was one of the oddities the IS noticed when they first arrived.

Is that stated somewhere?  Or are you just assuming because LAMs show up in the Goon TO&Es?

I don’t mean to be pendantic.  If there is a clear canon reference to the Goon LAMs and/or their pilots coming from the Homeworlds, that is a bit of a gamechanger given what we know about the Clan Warrior Caste, its phenotypes, and their training.

But if there is no clear reference, then it’s just as possible that the Goons collected their LAMs and pilots after they arrived in the Inner Sphere.  I could certainly see the tactically forward-thinking Goons offering good pay for Spheroid LAMs and pilots.  And I could also see Spheroid LAM pilots being attracted to work for the premier merc company in the Inner Sphere, especially if the Goons can provide rare LAM parts from old Clan Brian Caches.

Absent a clear canon reference, I think it’s more likely that the Goon LAMs and pilots are all of Spheroid origin.  Even for the Goons’ unusual mission, I find it hard to believe that the Clanners, individually or collectively, would go against their phenotype silos and reinvent a cross-training program to use a weapon type that they have not employed for a couple hundred years.  Just buying up Spheroid LAM pilots seems a lot more straightforward.

[RifleMech]

If the Superheavy BattleMech / OmniMech is attempted, the Society scientist have to figure out if they want to use their ProtoMech pilots try pilot the things since you need the VR related stuff to make it work as a single mech mode (Transzor Z/Magaziner Z) or do they have punish their underling warriors work as a TEAM a do a 3-man arrangement.

They could try using ProtoMech Pilots and VR stuff. I think it'd be easier to use washed out MechWarriors though. I'm sure they could find pilots and gunners willing to work together.

Do we really know that?  Or is this just inference?

It’s certainly a possibility.  But do we know that some Goon warriors were trained for LAMs in Homeworlds (whether using SLDF training tools, Scorp trainers, or something else)?

Is this actually stated somewhere?

Did those LAMs come from the Homeworlds?  Or were those LAMs salvaged/captured/bought by the Goons after the Goons arrived in the Inner Sphere?

Were those LAM pilots Clan warriors from the Homeworlds?  Or were those LAM pilot Spheroids who joined the Goons after the Goons arrived in the Inner Sphere?

It's mostly inference but we do know that Clan Wolf equipped the Dragoons from SLDF Caches. We also know that the Goliath Scorpions trained the Dragoons in SLDF tactics to an ability that they could stand up to frontline Clan Units. And we know the SLDF used LAMs.

There's also the large number of LAMs listed in the Wolf's Dragoons Sourcebook. The number could be even higher before the Dragoon's supply runs. Plus with LAMs being hard to get in the IS I can't see the Dragoons showing up and buying them. It also takes time to train so that would have been harder to do. The Dragoon personnel would have to be highly trained in order to do that so I can't see the LAM pilots getting trained in the IS and being rookies.
 
Kurt Brunner was born as a Goliath Scorpion and underwent trials to join the Dragoons. TRO:3085 He was a Stinger LAM Pilot. And since the Dragoons rarely if ever hired outside mercs I don't see all those LAMs being piloted by IS personnel.

[Starfury]

They could have, but the Society would have seem them as a last resort weapon, especially lacking access to manufacturing resources.  Protomechs and small to medium sized mechs plus vehicles and battle armor (when they could get it) are fair easier to manufacture then 105 ton and larger designs.  The Wobies only used them for defense, much like the Republic is now with C3 communications and ECCM as a force multiplier.  The Society's biggest issue was lack of manpower and an overestimation of their chances. If they had decided to wait after some of the Clans were weakened by the War of Reavings, they might have gotten somewhere..

[Natasha Kerensky]

It's mostly inference

That’s what I figured.  To be clear, I have nothing against LAMs.  But since the Clans did have something against LAMs for a couple centuries, I do find it hard to believe that the Clans would resurrect LAMs for the Goons’ mission.

but we do know that Clan Wolf equipped the Dragoons from SLDF Caches. We also know that the Goliath Scorpions trained the Dragoons in SLDF tactics to an ability that they could stand up to frontline Clan Units. And we know the SLDF used LAMs.

After they discovered LAM pilot in the Inner Sphere, it may be that the Goons asked for LAMs and LAM parts from Brian Caches for their resupply runs.

But I find it unlikely that the Clans, even the spec ops-ish Scorpions, kept LAMs alive for a couple centuries given their phenotypes and how they siloed training according to those phenotypes.  If the Scorps did keep LAMs alive, then we’d have some Clantech LAMs from the Golden Century or such, and we don’t.

I think it’s much more likely that the Goons attracted and sought out LAM pilots in the Inner Sphere after the Goons found out that LAM pilots still existed there.

There's also the large number of LAMs listed in the Wolf's Dragoons Sourcebook. The number could be even higher before the Dragoon's supply runs. Plus with LAMs being hard to get in the IS I can't see the Dragoons showing up and buying them.

The WDSB dates from 3030, and its TO&Es are before/after the Battle of Misery in 3028.  By that time, the Goons had been in the Inner Sphere for 23-25 years, a quarter century, and worked for every Successor State.  That’s plenty of time to collect some LAMs and LAM pilots from across the Inner Sphere.

(I’d also note that those TO&Es date from when the Goons were finishing up their time in the Draconis Combine, the one Successor State that still had an operational LAM parts factory.)

And for those LAM pilots who were dispossessed or could not repair their damaged LAMs, the Goons would have been a special draw as the Goons could provide LAMs and LAM parts from Homeworld Brian Caches.  I would guess that’s where most Goon LAM pilots came from.  LAM pilots, especially the dispossessed or those with broken LAMs, would have flocked to the Goons if the Goons proved that they had a steady supply of LAMs and LAM parts.

It also takes time to train so that would have been harder to do. The Dragoon personnel would have to be highly trained in order to do that so I can't see the LAM pilots getting trained in the IS and being rookies.

The Scorps/Goons didn’t need to train any LAM pilots for the Goons to field LAMs.  The Goons did hire in the Inner Sphere, and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t have hired some of the Inner Sphere’s LAM pilots.

Kurt Brunner was born as a Goliath Scorpion and underwent trials to join the Dragoons. TRO:3085 He was a Stinger LAM Pilot. And since the Dragoons rarely if ever hired outside mercs I don't see all those LAMs being piloted by IS personnel.

That’s the one bit of canon that opens the door to the possibility of Clan LAM pilots.  But it doesn’t say definitively where he got his LAM training, as part of a regular Scorp LAM program in the Homeworlds or with LAM pilots in the Inner Sphere. 

I could maybe see a Scorpion LAM cross-training program for freeborns that qualify for the Warrior Caste since they don’t have a phenotype and would care less about the stigma of being neither mechwarrior nor pilot.  But the fact that Brunner is trueborn (Shaffer bloodname) and apparently has the mechwarrior phenotype would seem to throw cold water on that theory.

Think I’ll post on Ask the Writers and see if we can get a little more clarity on this.  I’m guessing the writers just never thought it through when writing up the TO&Es in the WDSB (details on the Clans didn’t exist then) or the Brunner entry in TRO3085 (oversight).  But we’ll see...

[Greatclub]

That’s what I figured.  To be clear, I have nothing against LAMs.  But since the Clans did have something against LAMs for a couple centuries, I do find it hard to believe that the Clans would resurrect LAMs for the Goons’ mission.

I don't.

The Scorps trained the 'goons to what their books said were star league standards. If star league standards had LAMs, they trained them for LAM. IIRC, they had to fight actual trials because other clans hated how unclanlike the 'goons were.

The actual hardware was probably pulled out of brian caches where it had sat unused and unwanted for a quarter millennia. Giving them to Wolf would have almost have been garbage disposal. edit - I absolutely shudder at the casualties training the pilots would have produced without any institutional knowledge to draw on.

In reality, it was probably a bad case of new toy syndrome. LAM had only been out 2-3 years at that point and somebody decided it was a good spot to use some, spotlighting how well equipped, sophisticated and high tech the 'goons were. Remember that bit in Wolves on the Border where the dragoons have recon sats and the Sword of Light,  Kurita's showpiece units, don't? Same thing. 

[RifleMech]

That’s what I figured.  To be clear, I have nothing against LAMs.  But since the Clans did have something against LAMs for a couple centuries, I do find it hard to believe that the Clans would resurrect LAMs for the Goons’ mission.

We don't know that the Clans had something against LAMs for a couple centuries. We do know that by the Clan Invasion that no LAMs were in use with the Clans and that the Nova Cats hated them so much they destroyed the factory rather than retool it. We  also know that the Jade Falcon's didn't hate LAMs. At most they were dismissive of them but they were willing to give them a try. The Hell's Horses use of QuadVees also speeds of a possible willingness to use LAMs. Why they don't would be a guess.

After they discovered LAM pilot in the Inner Sphere, it may be that the Goons asked for LAMs and LAM parts from Brian Caches for their resupply runs.

Possibly.

But I find it unlikely that the Clans, even the spec ops-ish Scorpions, kept LAMs alive for a couple centuries given their phenotypes and how they siloed training according to those phenotypes.  If the Scorps did keep LAMs alive, then we’d have some Clantech LAMs from the Golden Century or such, and we don’t.

Then again they could have. They were well trained in SLDF tactics. At least as they understood them and the SLDF did use LAMs. I don't see why a few LAMs couldn't have been used by warriors wanting to train in SLDF tactics. Especially freebirths with something to prove. 

As for not having Clan Tech LAMs from the Golden Century, there's a lot of stuff from the Golden Century we haven't seen. There's a lot of things from various eras we haven't seen. We do know though that the Clans were still using SLDF equipment. It isn't hard to believe that the Scorpions used some LAMs until they either ran of spare parts or attitudes changed so much after the Dragoons left that LAMs were retired.

I think it’s much more likely that the Goons attracted and sought out LAM pilots in the Inner Sphere after the Goons found out that LAM pilots still existed there.

The WDSB dates from 3030, and its TO&Es are before/after the Battle of Misery in 3028.  By that time, the Goons had been in the Inner Sphere for 23-25 years, a quarter century, and worked for every Successor State.  That’s plenty of time to collect some LAMs and LAM pilots from across the Inner Sphere.

Possible. However, so far I can only find one time where they Dragoons hired out. That was in 3020 after their last supply run. Also hiring out was also a last resort and they were very picky about who they hired. So it isn't impossible for the Dragoons to have hired LAM pilots. That two outside merc warriors would be in Jaime Wolf's own Command Lance I find improbable even if they were Elite LAM Pilots. Also it isn't just pilots they'd need but the techs to repair the LAMs.

Their TO&E would date back to 3028 since they used Wolfhounds at Crossing.

(I’d also note that those TO&Es date from when the Goons were finishing up their time in the Draconis Combine, the one Successor State that still had an operational LAM parts factory.)

That's actually reason for the LAMs being from Clan Supplies. The DC was trying to absorb the Dragoons by giving them supply problems. They certainly wouldn't sell them parts much less fully intact LAMs. Also that factory produced only one LAM type. The Dragoons had three.

And for those LAM pilots who were dispossessed or could not repair their damaged LAMs, the Goons would have been a special draw as the Goons could provide LAMs and LAM parts from Homeworld Brian Caches.  I would guess that’s where most Goon LAM pilots came from.  LAM pilots, especially the dispossessed or those with broken LAMs, would have flocked to the Goons if the Goons proved that they had a steady supply of LAMs and LAM parts.

The Scorps/Goons didn’t need to train any LAM pilots for the Goons to field LAMs.  The Goons did hire in the Inner Sphere, and there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t have hired some of the Inner Sphere’s LAM pilots.

I have no doubt and they may have. How many of them though I doubt we'd know.

That’s the one bit of canon that opens the door to the possibility of Clan LAM pilots.  But it doesn’t say definitively where he got his LAM training, as part of a regular Scorp LAM program in the Homeworlds or with LAM pilots in the Inner Sphere. 

I could maybe see a Scorpion LAM cross-training program for freeborns that qualify for the Warrior Caste since they don’t have a phenotype and would care less about the stigma of being neither mechwarrior nor pilot.  But the fact that Brunner is trueborn (Shaffer bloodname) and apparently has the mechwarrior phenotype would seem to throw cold water on that theory.

True it doesn't say where he got his training. He was an Elite pilot though. Considering how long it takes to become a LAM pilot, the Dragoons not hiring out until 3020, and then attain elite status by 3028? I don't see him being trained by IS personnel.

I can see most Clan LAM Pilots being freeborn but that doesn't mean a trueborn wouldn't want to. Also his branch of the Shaffer bloodline was undistinguished and there is glory and honor in overcoming high odds. Piloting a LAM would make sure he'd face high odds. There's also the fact that he trialed and one to get into the Dragoons that says something about Kurt's interest in the SLDF and IS. It's also possible he was a seeker. For any or all those reasons I could see him wanting to be a LAM pilot.

Think I’ll post on Ask the Writers and see if we can get a little more clarity on this.  I’m guessing the writers just never thought it through when writing up the TO&Es in the WDSB (details on the Clans didn’t exist then) or the Brunner entry in TRO3085 (oversight).  But we’ll see...

It would be interesting to find out. I'm going to guess though that things changed over time. Remember the Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon Sourcebooks listed a lot of mechs that at the time would have been the unseen. Now we assume that they're the IIC variants but back then SLDF equipment saw more use. Last I looked a lot of SLDF was still in use with some Clans. So it isn't inconceivable that the Clans were going to use LAMs and events forced a change. Not just with the Clans but the IS too.

[Cannonshop]

We don't know that the Clans had something against LAMs for a couple centuries. We do know that by the Clan Invasion that no LAMs were in use with the Clans and that the Nova Cats hated them so much they destroyed the factory rather than retool it. We  also know that the Jade Falcon's didn't hate LAMs. At most they were dismissive of them but they were willing to give them a try. The Hell's Horses use of QuadVees also speeds of a possible willingness to use LAMs. Why they don't would be a guess.


Possibly.

Then again they could have. They were well trained in SLDF tactics. At least as they understood them and the SLDF did use LAMs. I don't see why a few LAMs couldn't have been used by warriors wanting to train in SLDF tactics. Especially freebirths with something to prove. 

As for not having Clan Tech LAMs from the Golden Century, there's a lot of stuff from the Golden Century we haven't seen. There's a lot of things from various eras we haven't seen. We do know though that the Clans were still using SLDF equipment. It isn't hard to believe that the Scorpions used some LAMs until they either ran of spare parts or attitudes changed so much after the Dragoons left that LAMs were retired.



Possible. However, so far I can only find one time where they Dragoons hired out. That was in 3020 after their last supply run. Also hiring out was also a last resort and they were very picky about who they hired. So it isn't impossible for the Dragoons to have hired LAM pilots. That two outside merc warriors would be in Jaime Wolf's own Command Lance I find improbable even if they were Elite LAM Pilots. Also it isn't just pilots they'd need but the techs to repair the LAMs.

Their TO&E would date back to 3028 since they used Wolfhounds at Crossing.


That's actually reason for the LAMs being from Clan Supplies. The DC was trying to absorb the Dragoons by giving them supply problems. They certainly wouldn't sell them parts much less fully intact LAMs. Also that factory produced only one LAM type. The Dragoons had three.


I have no doubt and they may have. How many of them though I doubt we'd know.



True it doesn't say where he got his training. He was an Elite pilot though. Considering how long it takes to become a LAM pilot, the Dragoons not hiring out until 3020, and then attain elite status by 3028? I don't see him being trained by IS personnel.

I can see most Clan LAM Pilots being freeborn but that doesn't mean a trueborn wouldn't want to. Also his branch of the Shaffer bloodline was undistinguished and there is glory and honor in overcoming high odds. Piloting a LAM would make sure he'd face high odds. There's also the fact that he trialed and one to get into the Dragoons that says something about Kurt's interest in the SLDF and IS. It's also possible he was a seeker. For any or all those reasons I could see him wanting to be a LAM pilot.


It would be interesting to find out. I'm going to guess though that things changed over time. Remember the Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon Sourcebooks listed a lot of mechs that at the time would have been the unseen. Now we assume that they're the IIC variants but back then SLDF equipment saw more use. Last I looked a lot of SLDF was still in use with some Clans. So it isn't inconceivable that the Clans were going to use LAMs and events forced a change. Not just with the Clans but the IS too.

that change can be spelled "Harmony Gold Lawsuit" and "Aerotech 1 didn't sell as well as expected."

that, and due to some of the earlier iterations of the rules, people were abusing the hell out of LAM jump ranges to be effectively unhittable by superior Clan equipment.

[RifleMech]

that change can be spelled "Harmony Gold Lawsuit" and "Aerotech 1 didn't sell as well as expected."

that, and due to some of the earlier iterations of the rules, people were abusing the hell out of LAM jump ranges to be effectively unhittable by superior Clan equipment.

That'd be the change.  :thumbsup:

Although I like Aerotech 1.

[Paul]

Depends.

Once they got desperate? Sure, they'd use anything if they thought it'd help.

As a part of their (interrupted) long term plan, as a sort of super-Osteon? Inclined towards no. Super Heavies suck hard and are a technological dead end. What they gain in survivability, they lose in those damned -1 to hit bonus they give to their enemies, and their heinous mobility. Also they lack access to a lot of technologies that would make the frame interesting. Their IS is heavy, and their engine ratings are well on the wrong side of the curve. No Ferro-lamellar armor. Though one with Laser reflective or Reactive could be fun.

Now, if you could break some of those restrictions as a part of Society research, things change, IE, permitting TSM or some such. But the tech as-is is a dead end.

[RifleMech]

I don't think Superheavies are a dead end. I think they have limited uses until their technology improves but they are useful. Their biggest limiter is lack of transportation. They can't be moved easily as there's no bay large enough to move them. When that's taken care of they can contribute better than as a defensive unit.

I do think that Superheavies could use some improvements but I don't think that means they're worthless. Until they're improved I think they'd be better behind the lines as mobile artillery and C&C.

[Minemech]

 Too little utility for the investment. They could make them, and they would outclass IS mechs, but they are not fighting against Inner Sphere foes.

[Wrangler]

Part of the reason why i personally wanted the time jump was introduction of new technology, which could added things immediately to better utilize the Superheavies in ways we have to wait or be too impatient to wait to be made for them.

[Paul]

I think they have limited uses until their technology improves but they are useful.

I'm starting to notice that your threshold for useful is "It does something, anything."
For most of us, it's "It does something better than the other thing". You know: competitive.

When that's taken care of they can contribute better than as a defensive unit.

Not as it currently stands.
Crude examples to illustrate what I mean:

Let's compare a 200 ton SH to two 100 ton Mechs.
Internal structure:
The SH has 298 points of it.
The 2 assaults have 304 points of it.
The SH has to spend 40 tons on that IS.
The Mechs spend 20.

The SH needs a 600 rated engine (doesnt exist) to go 3/5, or a 400 rated engine to go 2/3
The 2 Mechs need either two 300 rated or two 200 rated.
SH: 400 rated engine is 52.5 tons
Mechs: 2x200 rated engine is 17 tons.

Cockpit: Minor gain. 4 tons vs 2 x 3. Doesn't offset the enormous losses in structure and engine mass.

So those 2 assault Mechs are bringing a heck of a lot more payload per total ton of warmachine than the SH ever can.
Never mind that those Mechs have access to tech that the SH does not. Stealth Armor, TSM, modular armor.

The only advantage the SH has is crit space.
That's not enough to offset the lack of access to certain tech, and that cursed -1 to-hit modifier. It's certainly not enough to make them *better* than assault Mechs.

Until they're improved I think they'd be better behind the lines as mobile artillery and C&C.

A job done well for centuries by vehicles. Who are much easier to transport as you pointed out. And have no trouble being faster than a SH. By their behind-the-scenes nature, their terrain restrictions are less painful as well.

SH need several rule changes to become competitive. Just giving them a Mech cubicle isn't enough. Possibly nothing; the expontial weight growth per rating that starts to kick in north of 300 rated engines is almost like a force of nature, legislating suck. With XXL you can smooth it to the 380s or so, but then it starts to degrade as well.

[truetanker]

First... I like the LAM arguments.

Second, there is a larger engine, even with XXL tech.

Third, please continue...

Thanks,
TT

[Paul]

Second, there is a larger engine, even with XXL tech.

Yes, I account for that. The problem is the exponential weight growth that kicks in at the engine ratings the super heavies need. Makes it impossible for them to compete with assault Mechs using the same tech; if your super heavy has an XXL, then why not the assault Mechs we're comparing them to?

[Maingunnery]

Superheavies do have some advantages, such as greater possible focus of firepower, greater armor thickness, etc.
But to properly exploit these advantages does require having some experience.
Thus we can expect that most early prototypes end up as boondoggles.

[RifleMech]

Part of the reason why i personally wanted the time jump was introduction of new technology, which could added things immediately to better utilize the Superheavies in ways we have to wait or be too impatient to wait to be made for them.

I'd love to get new technology. I'd also like to see how it develops though.

I'm starting to notice that your threshold for useful is "It does something, anything."
For most of us, it's "It does something better than the other thing". You know: competitive.

Not as it currently stands.
Crude examples to illustrate what I mean:

(snip)

The only advantage the SH has is crit space.
That's not enough to offset the lack of access to certain tech, and that cursed -1 to-hit modifier. It's certainly not enough to make them *better* than assault Mechs.

I never said they were better. I said useful.  A 200 ton Superheavy with IS, a 400 XL Engine, Gyro, Cockpit and 20 tons of armor leaves 101.5 tons if I'm not missing anything. That's quite a lot of artillery one can pack into the Superheavy. With room to have all kinds of ammo for the artillery. More than two 100 ton mechs can carry. More so if Clan Tech is used. So yes I think Superheavies can be useful. They'd be more useful if they could be transported easier.

A job done well for centuries by vehicles. Who are much easier to transport as you pointed out. And have no trouble being faster than a SH. By their behind-the-scenes nature, their terrain restrictions are less painful as well.

Vehicles also have terrain restrictions that Mechs don't.

SH need several rule changes to become competitive. Just giving them a Mech cubicle isn't enough. Possibly nothing; the expontial weight growth per rating that starts to kick in north of 300 rated engines is almost like a force of nature, legislating suck. With XXL you can smooth it to the 380s or so, but then it starts to degrade as well.

If you want them on the frontlines slugging it out with the Assaults and Heavy, sure. But I didn't say competitive or that they should be on the frontlines. I said until their tech gets better they'd be more useful behind the frontlines in an artillery or C&C role. Or some other supporting roll. 

[Paul]

Such as greater possible focus of firepower

No. It's pure payload, and the equivalent tonnage in Mechs will always bring more than the equivalent tonnage in SH. Fact.

greater armor thickness, etc.

The inherent utility in that is microscopic.

But to properly exploit these advantages does require having some experience.
Thus we can expect that most early prototypes end up as boondoggles.

I listed what's possible and what's required within the confines of the current rules. Experience has absolutely nothing to do with it. The fact that the canon examples are all weak has nothing to do with it. It is impossible for them to outperform Mechs without significant (huge) rule changes.


Again, the threshold isn't "does it do something"
It's "does it do it better"

It cannot.

[Maingunnery]

No. It's pure payload, and the equivalent tonnage in Mechs will always bring more than the equivalent tonnage in SH. Fact.

I see that I need to go into deeper detail. With focus I mean focus, the ability to focus its full firepower in a number of sweet spots. I exploited this one time with a SH armed mostly with HPPCs & LBX10s, while the terrain made it difficult for the enemy lance to apply their full firepower. As a result on every turn the SH had the firepower advantage, melting a enemy Mech every 2-3 turns.
Exploiting this does require an intelligent loadout and the right terrain for that loadout, but it is inherently more difficult to do for a force consisting out of more units.

The inherent utility in that is microscopic.

It delays critical damage, allowing the SH to retain its full functionality longer than the opposite force.

[Paul]

With focus I mean focus, the ability to focus its full firepower in a number of sweet spots.

2 Mechs will bring more firepower per ton, and can focus on the same target just as easily.

I exploited this one time with a SH armed mostly with HPPCs & LBX10s, while the terrain made it difficult for the enemy lance to apply their full firepower. As a result on every turn the SH had the firepower advantage, melting a enemy Mech every 2-3 turns.

You fought a lance and won? While using terrain despite the SH's difficult in using it for cover?
I suspect enormous incompetence on your opponent's side. Or perhaps they were bringing some light mechs to the fight?

It delays critical damage, allowing the SH to retain its full functionality longer than the opposite force.

Not meaningfully. While you focus on 1 assault, the other one is completely immune to critical damage.

[Retry]

I'm starting to notice that your threshold for useful is "It does something, anything."
For most of us, it's "It does something better than the other thing". You know: competitive.

I've made reasonably effective mobile Long Tom carriers out of superheavy 'Mechs, which you can only kinda-sorta accomplish with a vehicle, and can't do with a regular 'mech at all.

Okay, so it was a 105 tonner at 3/5, so calling it a "Superheavy" is a bit of a stretch, but still.

[Maingunnery]

2 Mechs will bring more firepower per ton, and can focus on the same target just as easily.

You fought a lance and won? While using terrain despite the SH's difficult in using it for cover?
I suspect enormous incompetence on your opponent's side. Or perhaps they were bringing some light mechs to the fight?

Not meaningfully. While you focus on 1 assault, the other one is completely immune to critical damage.

I was facing a lance consisting out of IS mediums and heavies, they were mostly XL firepower orientated designs.
The fragility difference was extremely noticeable. Losing a 1/4 of their total firepower about every 3 turns didn't help them.
They were able to do was almost taking off all my armor on one leg, the other locations had about 1/2 or more remaining.


At least it wasn't a twisting cave scenario, something like that would be like the Battle of Thermopylae.

[glitterboy2098]

Superheavies do have some advantages, such as greater possible focus of firepower, greater armor thickness, etc.
But to properly exploit these advantages does require having some experience.
Thus we can expect that most early prototypes end up as boondoggles.

yep, they have advantages. which is why i think the Society wouldn't have used them for doctrinal reasons. super heavies are big and slow. great for defense of locations or as the anchor of a large formation of ground units. but the Society was planning a war of mobility, guerilla strikes by small units from hidden camps and bases. superheavies are too slow for mobile warfare, unsuited for small unit actions, and not easy to hide. thus even if they had the technology to build them (which they'd have to develop independently since the WoR started and were over by the time the WoB revealed theirs) it is unlikely they'd invest in them. you'd have maybe one or two prototypes from a research program at best, given they had trouble building enough Osteons and Cephalus for their needs, and only had enough Septicemia due to their deals with the Coyote's.

[Paul]

I was facing a lance consisting out of IS mediums and heavies, they were mostly XL firepower orientated designs.

They should've wiped the floor with you. I'll happily take on those odds, more so if you were using one of the crappy canon designs...

[Natasha Kerensky]

200-ton, 2/3 superheavies are arguably a waste.

But the 3/5 superheavies optimize around 130 tons with a 390XXL engine.  Thanks to the superheavy movement rules in built-up terrain, these designs are actually more mobile than the Osteon and other 3/5 assaults.  And because of the halved component crits on superheavies, a Clan XXL engine on a superheavy poses no more vulnerability than a Clan XL engine on an assault.

A Society superheavy could use its Nova CEWs to create ghost targets on approach and negate the -1 mod for targeting superheavies for part of an engagement.  Although it cannot employ reinforced structure like the Osteon, a 130-ton superheavy can carry around 400 armor points, vice the ~250 of the Osteon.  Both can mount ferro-lamellor.  The superheavy’s cockpit is not subject to the vulnerabilities of the Osteon’s torso-mounted cockpit, and can be more heavily armored than other mech head locations to boot.

The 130-tonner can mount five iATM-12s and the freezers and deep ammo bins to use them.  That’s 24 more iATM tubes than the Osteon Prime and 12 more than even the Turkina Z.  Given that the Society had few good mechwarriors and given that their Nova CEWs networks were limited to three units, this would have been a substantial benefit for the Society.  Similar killer configurations like a “super-Hellstar” with five ER PPCs and the freezers to use them can be fielded.

It’s not a slam dunk, especially (obviously) if costs or logistics are a limiting factor.  But an intelligently designed, Clantech superheavy can handily edge out a similar assault and could have had special attraction for the personnel- and targeting network-limited Society.

[Paul]

Yeah like I said: if you change the construction rules for them, obviously the equasion changes.
But then we are talking house rules, and the whole position stands or falls based on the choices you make.

Also dont compare 135 tons vs 85. Instead give that side another 60 ton mech to make it a more apples to apples comparison, and the heavier engines and internal structure still robs you of payload.

[RifleMech]

Why does any comparison between a Supperheavy and an Assault mech have to be at two to one odds in the Assault Mechs favor? It's like saying 40 ton mechs suck because two 20 ton mechs can do better.

If I'm looking at the numbers right 2 Superheavies loaded with artillery can take the place of a lance to an entire company of other units depending on the lighter units loads. I'd call that pretty good.

[Greatclub]

Because by any standard - BV, tonnage, c-bills, dropship bays - the superheavy eats more resources than any single mech, for diminishing returns on what those resources could otherwise buy.

[RifleMech]

Because by any standard - BV, tonnage, c-bills, dropship bays - the superheavy eats more resources than any single mech, for diminishing returns on what those resources could otherwise buy.

BV  - Don't know.
Tonnage - I don't know. If one big unit can do the work of lots of little units? Could be worth it.
C-Bills - Yes, they're expensive. So?
Dropship bays won't get any argument from me and I've said its a problem for Superheavies.
Resources - If that were a problem would there be Assault Mechs and Superheavy Vehicles?

[Maingunnery]

yep, they have advantages. which is why i think the Society wouldn't have used them for doctrinal reasons. super heavies are big and slow. great for defense of locations or as the anchor of a large formation of ground units. but the Society was planning a war of mobility, guerilla strikes by small units from hidden camps and bases. superheavies are too slow for mobile warfare, unsuited for small unit actions, and not easy to hide. thus even if they had the technology to build them (which they'd have to develop independently since the WoR started and were over by the time the WoB revealed theirs) it is unlikely they'd invest in them. you'd have maybe one or two prototypes from a research program at best, given they had trouble building enough Osteons and Cephalus for their needs, and only had enough Septicemia due to their deals with the Coyote's.

I fully agree, they don't fit in with the Society at all, and the return of investment on such a hyper-specialized unit is obviously questionable. Also Super Heavies should have a bad reputation with the Society as the Scientist Caste should remember the Matar boondoggle.

[RifleMech]

I fully agree, they don't fit in with the Society at all, and the return of investment on such a hyper-specialized unit is obviously questionable. Also Super Heavies should have a bad reputation with the Society as the Scientist Caste should remember the Matar boondoggle.

Then again the Three Man Digging Machine Worked. I'm sure Clan Scientists could have heard about it and been inspired to take another look at Superheavies. For all we know they did and we just haven't heard about it. The Society also thought outside the box. A Superheavy mech is pretty outside the box.

[Maingunnery]

Then again the Three Man Digging Machine Worked. I'm sure Clan Scientists could have heard about it and been inspired to take another look at Superheavies. For all we know they did and we just haven't heard about it. The Society also thought outside the box. A Superheavy mech is pretty outside the box.

In my opinion the Society would be more likely to invest in SH vehicles, although that would require more development time than they historically got time for...

[Paul]

Why does any comparison between a Supperheavy and an Assault mech have to be at two to one odds in the Assault Mechs favor?

Because there's this thing called making an apples to apples comparison. Obviously, 1 40 ton Mech will beat 1 20 ton Mech. That's not a meaningful comparison.
Now 1 40 vs 2 20s, yeah that's going to be a much more even fight.

If I'm looking at the numbers right 2 Superheavies loaded with artillery can take the place of a lance to an entire company of other units depending on the lighter units loads. I'd call that pretty good.

Then you're looking at the numbers wrong. Those 2 super heavies would be massively more expensive, and no faster than a lance of vehicles moving the same volume of artillery around. It's mathematically impossible for Super Heavies to be a superior choice.

[Greatclub]

How do you get a company of artillery in a superheavy? A company is 12 vees, and the most arty you can get in a superheavy is, as near as I can tell, 5.

If you're using the real world definition maybe.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Yeah like I said: if you change the construction rules for them, obviously the equasion changes.

Those designs are consistent with the canon construction rules for superheavies.

They’re mixed tech, but so are the canon Poseidon and Ares.

Also dont compare 135 tons vs 85. Instead give that side another 60 ton mech

Sure, but that’s immaterial for a Society cell with a paucity of capable mechwarriors.

If your force is constrained by the availability of decently trained and skilled combatants and outnumbered by the enemy, then you’ll want to equip your combatants as well as possible.  This is the situation with the Society.

And we can design a rules legal, mixed-tech superheavy that is better than the Osteon and other 3/5 options available to the Society.

Doesn’t mean the Society had the inspiration, capacity, or resources to do it.  But if they did, there is a design logic for them following that path.

[RifleMech]

In my opinion the Society would be more likely to invest in SH vehicles, although that would require more development time than they historically got time for...

They probably would although I don't know about taking more time to develop.

Because there's this thing called making an apples to apples comparison. Obviously, 1 40 ton Mech will beat 1 20 ton Mech. That's not a meaningful comparison.
Now 1 40 vs 2 20s, yeah that's going to be a much more even fight.

Not necessarily. A Locust with the same weapons vs Cicada 2A is even money. Actually, just swapping the MGs for 2 SLs and a 2nd ML would give the Locust more firepower than the Cicada.

You want to fight evenly?  ???

Then you're looking at the numbers wrong. Those 2 super heavies would be massively more expensive, and no faster than a lance of vehicles moving the same volume of artillery around. It's mathematically impossible for Super Heavies to be a superior choice.

I agree. Superheavies would be massively expensive. However, considering the prices of some parts on mechs being mass produced in the IS, even the Periphery could be producing Superheavies and LAMs. So cost is only a factor if you want to go there.

When did I say Superior?  ???  Although they might be transportation wise if you consider how heavy Bays could be. Even at 400 tons for a Superheavy Mech Bay two would be 800 tons. That'd be 400 less than that of 12 HV Bays. And I think 400 tons is probably 100 tons too much. So you could possibly carry 1 lance of superheavy mechs to a company of vehicles. That'd reduce the cost of food and such. Not that I'd plan to do that for every assault. They're Specialists. You'd bring them when assaulting a really hardened target.

How do you get a company of artillery in a superheavy? A company is 12 vees, and the most arty you can get in a superheavy is, as near as I can tell, 5.

If you're using the real world definition maybe.

A 200 ton Superheavy with 20 ton ES IS, a 52.5 400 Engine, 8 ton Gyro, 4 ton Cockpit, 10 extra clan DHS and 19.5 tons of armor takes 114 tons. That leaves plenty of tonnage for 6 artillery pieces.

[Greatclub]

A 200 ton Superheavy with 20 ton ES IS, a 52.5 400 Engine, 8 ton Gyro, 4 ton Cockpit, 10 extra clan DHS and 19.5 tons of armor takes 114 tons. That leaves plenty of tonnage for 6 artillery pieces.

It isn't weight, the limitation is space. Each thumper eats 8 crits. That is one in each torso and arm. Five total.

I don't know a way around that.

edit - correction, you can get six thumpers if you limit yourself to a light engne. but that leaves you 17.5 tons for armor and ammo.

edit second. Thumper pieces (as opposed to thumper cannons) is 15 tons. 114 + 90 is over 200, and we haven't even added ammo yet.

[RifleMech]

It isn't weight, the limitation is space. Each thumper eats 8 crits. That is one in each torso and arm. Five total.

I don't know a way around that.

edit - correction, you can get six thumpers if you limit yourself to a light engne. but that leaves you 17.5 tons for armor and ammo.

edit second. Thumper pieces (as opposed to thumper cannons) is 15 tons. 114 + 90 is over 200, and we haven't even added ammo yet.

There's Clan Tech Arrow IVs. They take 6 crits. That's, 2 in each side torso, 1 in the center and 1 in each arm for a total of 7. Or you could put a Thumper in each arm and 2 Arrow IVs in each side torso for a total of 6. And you still have crits and tonnage for plenty of ammo.

Or you could go with a could Long Tom's and a couple Arrow IVs. That would replace 2 tractors, 8 trailers, and 2 other vehicles.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

How much heat is that?  If you can't keep sustained fire going because you're overheating your Super Heavy, it's not giving an advantage over vehicles.

[RifleMech]

How much heat is that?  If you can't keep sustained fire going because you're overheating your Super Heavy, it's not giving an advantage over vehicles.

Firing 4 Arrow IVs and 2 Thumpers? 52 heat if fired together. I also said 10 extra clan DHS that's a total of 40 heat sinking.  That's enough to fire off a few Arrows and move and then when in Thumper range alternate weapons fire.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, that's too much heat gain to handle more than one round.

[Greatclub]

I'm also invoking Apollo's law - if it needs clantech to make it viable, it didn't deserve those resources in the first place.

Five thumper pieces is doable. Optimal on no level, but doable. Six approaches 3025 Charger level.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The problem with Apollo's Law, is that rather like Godwin's Law it's easy to use it to simply shut down any discussion.

[Greatclub]

The problem with Apollo's Law, is that rather like Godwin's Law it's easy to use it to simply shut down any discussion.

True, and especially towards the end of the dark age it applies less and less.

Unfortunately, I think it does here.

[Retry]

Honestly I don't think that even clan-tech can make the One-Mech Walking Battery concept viable.  At least viable in the sense of "this is genuinely useful compared to using conventional artillery".

[RifleMech]

Yeah, that's too much heat gain to handle more than one round.

Which Clan mech has 4 ER PPCs which generates 60 heat?  ???

I'm also invoking Apollo's law - if it needs clantech to make it viable, it didn't deserve those resources in the first place.

Five thumper pieces is doable. Optimal on no level, but doable. Six approaches 3025 Charger level.

How many units use Clan tech?  ???

Honestly I don't think that even clan-tech can make the One-Mech Walking Battery concept viable.  At least viable in the sense of "this is genuinely useful compared to using conventional artillery".

I think a superheavy mech carrying artillery is useful. I don't think it'd ever replace other artillery units but there is a place for it.

[Wrangler]

Walking mobile HQ not bad option.

Mobile HPG isn't (more role playing or strategic/big game thing)

"Interesting" Solaris Combatant

[RifleMech]

Walking mobile HQ not bad option.

Mobile HPG isn't (more role playing or strategic/big game thing)

"Interesting" Solaris Combatant

Agreed

True is is more an RPG thing but it'd fit in a superheavy better than an assault. I guess capture the HPG games would be different if the HPG carrier can move and fire back.

That'd be fun to see.

[Retry]

I think a superheavy mech carrying artillery is useful. I don't think it'd ever replace other artillery units but there is a place for it.

Never said it wasn't.  In fact, I've posted a Long Tom superheavy or two somwhere here on this forum before.

What I said is that a walking battery, IOW six artillery guns on one platform, really isn't all that useful vs. just making six units.

[RifleMech]

Never said it wasn't.  In fact, I've posted a Long Tom superheavy or two somwhere here on this forum before.

What I said is that a walking battery, IOW six artillery guns on one platform, really isn't all that useful vs. just making six units.

Cool! I'll have to look for them.

Well, it is a lot of damage that can be delivered and Mechs can go places vehicles can't. Mostly though that's 6 units you have to transport. That's a lot of tonnage, especially for mechs. If 1 unit can replace some of that, that means tonnage for other units or things.

[Wrangler]

Again, i wonder if the Society ever caught wind of the last resort Superheavy BattleMechs that suddenly appeared on Terra (as operational ones)

I have some doubts the Clans in the Inner Sphere will field them, but you never know.

[Retry]

The Jihad invasion of Terra was very late 3070s, but the Society was purged by 3076.  Not a whole lot of time for the Society to become inspired.

[glitterboy2098]

The Jihad invasion of Terra was very late 3070s, but the Society was purged by 3076.  Not a whole lot of time for the Society to become inspired.

no time actually, as the homeworlds cut off all contact with the IS in early 3075, and the WOB didn't reveal the first superheavy mechs until late 3076.

so only the IS branch of The Society might have a chance to even see info relating to the WoB units, and since the only large branch seems to have been the Falcon one, which was destroyed in 3074, odds are The Society was in no position to seriously benefit from the study.

[Retry]

no time actually, as the homeworlds cut off all contact with the IS in early 3075, and the WOB didn't reveal the first superheavy mechs until late 3076.

Yeah, the last part of that was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

I don't think that Society consider this because of;
-It uses too much investment just for one unit, that may viewed as inefficient.
-It may give too much power to the individual soldier, and it seems not so good for the scientists that wants to dominate warriors.

[dgorsman]

While I'm on the side of being resource prohibitive from the top level managers in the Society, I can also see a Scientist get all "Of corse the earlier attempts failed.  They were Usurper cronies.  They were Spheroid barbarians.  I am CLAN.  It IS going to work." egocentric about a project like this.

[Col Toda]

Just about any super heavy  going against like bv of Nagas lose . Arrow IV is the answer to any slow target The society would build equipment to counter super heavy advantages not make a unit that is inherently  artillery fodder

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That's true, but would the Clan commanders have been willing to pull their forces back and rely on artillery?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Although zellbrigen denies any interference between the single combat so artillery is not the prefered choice, but Clans DO use artilleries, and against dezgra - and chalcas - zellbrigen is not even a consideration.

-----------------

Also, remember the duel between protomech/battle armor and battlemech, and modified zellbrigen of aerospace fighters. Aerospace fighters aren't follow the code of duel when they against the warship, and a dropship can engage a squadron of aerospace fighter rather than only one fighter. Also a point of protomech/battle armor can issue challenge against each other point of them or the other battlemech(that is basically a point) as if the whole point is just a single entity.

So, it is possible that, even if they follow the rules of zellbrigen against the superheavies, it is possible that a whole mech star can issue challenge, NOT a single mech, and any number of protomech and battle armor can engage the superheavy just as any number of aerospace fighter engage a warship.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Hellions were the only Clan that allowed multiple mechs to challenge a single, heavier target.  Other Clans allowed a single mech to potentially challenge multiple opponents at once, but it wasn't required.

And while all Clans used Arrow IV in some capacity, most were still reluctant to actually deploy it even if they have it available.  Especially Homeworld Clans that didn't have the experience of fighting the Inner Sphere and therefore were far more rigid in their thinking when it came to how to fight.

[RifleMech]

Just about any super heavy  going against like bv of Nagas lose . Arrow IV is the answer to any slow target The society would build equipment to counter super heavy advantages not make a unit that is inherently  artillery fodder

On the other hand a super heavy can be a walking artillery battery that could out range the Arrow IV.

[truetanker]

Which is why I asked...

If a Point can challenge a another Point, why not a Star vs. Super, as suggested?

TT

[Paul]

Because a superheavy isnt worth 5 Mechs.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

That's true, but a point of battle armor is not worth a mech either - I think that at least a star of them is required to withstand a mech point(1 mech).

And a superheavy mech is hardly worth only one mech either.

[Paul]

That's true, but a point of battle armor is not worth a mech either - I think that at least a star of them is required to withstand a mech point(1 mech).

Great, so let's extend the error? OK then, yeah, whatever you want to do, because there's really not a legitimate question on the table if there is no requirement to try to achieve some sort of balance.

And a superheavy mech is hardly worth only one mech either.

It's pretty much just 1 Mech. The flaws are that massive. Willing to settle for calling it 2 heavies for argument's sake.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's only worth more than one mech if it's being compared to really bad mechs.

And that's no different from a Clan assault mech in that regard.

[Alexander Knight]

The SuperHeavy actually has several non-tangible advantages over equal tonnage of smaller machines:

1.) One engine vs multiple engines.  That takes fewer resources
2.) A crew that can each be trained in their primary focus (pilot, gunner, etc) vs 1 man who has to be trained in all the aspects.  Reduces training time needed since you can train the crew in parallel, costs less to train each individual.
3.)  Transport:  This one is variable, as SH 'mechs must be transported via cargo rules, so a SH bay is up to 200 tons, while 'mech bays are 150 tons each but have repair facilities.

This is not to say SH 'mechs are better, only that there are reasons for a faction to build them that are not immediately visible.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Tripods are the only mechs that have multiple crew with dedicated positions.

A bipedal superheavy like the Omega still has only one person inside.

[Paul]

The SuperHeavy actually has several non-tangible advantages over equal tonnage of smaller machines:

1: doesnt hold up given how immensely heavy and costly engines get in the higher end. The curve for engine ton age alone kills them, as demonstrated earlier in the thread.

2: Not having a crew has always been touted as an advantage for Mechs. Dedicated training and length of training are not meaningful or measurable advantages in BT. Meanwhile those guys not being useful in regular Mechs is a problem. And super heavies dont intrinsically have crews as pointed out.

3: I find it impossible to consider the 200 tons vs 300 tons as an advantage, given the huge cost in deployment time and the extra burden in repairing them. Those problems are far more costly than 100 tons.

This is not to say SH 'mechs are better, only that there are reasons for a faction to build them that are not immediately visible.

There really, objectively, factually are no reasons to use crappy SH Mechs in the BT universe. Between their fundamental gameplay rules and them being especially harmed by the way engine mass is calculated, theyre just bad. Anything they do can be done better and cheaper by other stuff. Rules changes are needed to un-suck them. Until those happen, no meaningful case in their favor can be made.

[Alexander Knight]

1: doesnt hold up given how immensely heavy and costly engines get in the higher end. The curve for engine ton age alone kills them, as demonstrated earlier in the thread.

Let us say, for instance, every engine built requires a Widget.  No exceptions, no special cases, you have to have a Widget.  In this case you require one Widget for the Superheavy engine as opposed to two Widgets for the standard 'mechs.  That means you don't need to expand Widget production as much, which is a concern for the Society.

2.)  Yes, 1 man pilots are an advantage for 'mechs.  However, the Society is in the unique position of not being able to field sufficient Mechwarriors.  In such a case, you have to look for alternatives, like the Society did with ProtoMechs.

[Paul]

Widgets: now we are really moving in to nebulous territory. But regardless of whether this widget is a strawman or an actual problem, the bottleneck for the society was secrecy. Not engines. They had a Mech factory on strana mechty.

MW shortage: their quality MWs were meant for the Scepticemia, not the Osteons. Given that SHs are intrinsically easier destroy, theyd never consider it a viable alternative, unless we introduce a macguffin that allows them to unsuck the SH intrinsically. But, notably, thats contrary to their strategy in the 3070s.

[Paul]

To expand on that: if we agreed for the sake of argument that itd be possible to use Reinforced structure and F-L armor on a SH, thatd go some way to change my position. The ease with which to hit it, and the engine penalty are still problems to me, so Id need some more convincing.
Mimetic armor would likewise significantly change the evaluation.
But those arent options, RAW.

[truetanker]

A 150 tonner with a 2MP needs a 300 rated, 19 ton engine to move. While slow, it can still carry max armor, armored components and the like. If one was designed ergonomically,  I'll bet it can be done, but since it means usurping standard designs, it should be noted.

TT

[Paul]

You reckon that two 75 ton 2/3 Mechs will be bringing a lot more payload to the party?

[Wrangler]

Well, thing is tripods tends to save on speed if their heavier since they only pay for 1 MP turn no matter the direction their facing.

Given that advantages, Society could use it than using couple heavies.  Society also wants to freak out normal Clan Warriors.

Only thing is Tripods weren't thing yet in time Society was around.

[truetanker]

Dig Lord was around SL era... it was a Tripod.

TT

[Maingunnery]

SH can be interesting, but I don't think the Society would have the means to properly deploy them, nor do they really fit their mindset.

[dgorsman]

I can see them using super-heavies the same way they planned to use the Osteon: something that can take a licking while dishing out massive firepower assisted by (and distracting from) other Nova-equipped units.  Use of CLPS and null-sig would not be unexpected either - if they could get it to work with the Nova CEWS then getting it to work, in a limited fashion at least, on a super-heavy is plausible.

The big downside for me always comes back to logistics and secrecy.  No way they can build enough of them prior to open conflict happening without drawing too much attention.  They had enough problems getting sufficient Osteons built.  Good odds on them having the idea kicking around for later though.  The whole over the top 'We are superior, there's nothing we can't do bigger and better!' nature of the super-heavy Mechs is right up the Society's alley.

[Paul]

Well, thing is tripods tends to save on speed if their heavier since they only pay for 1 MP turn no matter the direction their facing.

Yeah. Works for those 75 tonners as well if you make them as tripods.

We have been over all this earlier in the thread. Engine weight kills it. Construction rules kills it.

I can see them using super-heavies the same way they planned to use the Osteon: something that can take a licking while dishing out massive firepower assisted by (and distracting from) other Nova-equipped units.

Yeah, and thats only viable if the SH can be made to be more survivable as an Osteon.
It cannot.
So it’s not a viable path. Thats a fact.

[RifleMech]

3.)  Transport:  This one is variable, as SH 'mechs must be transported via cargo rules, so a SH bay is up to 200 tons, while 'mech bays are 150 tons each but have repair facilities.

This is not to say SH 'mechs are better, only that there are reasons for a faction to build them that are not immediately visible.

When did SH Mech Bays become available?  ???

You reckon that two 75 ton 2/3 Mechs will be bringing a lot more payload to the party?

How long would it take to kill a SH Mech with max armor and Armored everything compared to 2 Heavy Mechs?

Yeah. Works for those 75 tonners as well if you make them as tripods.

We have been over all this earlier in the thread. Engine weight kills it. Construction rules kills it.

Yeah, and thats only viable if the SH can be made to be more survivable as an Osteon.
It cannot.
So it’s not a viable path. Thats a fact.

Tripods under 100 tons don't get the 3rd crew member/Command Console. Nor can they be built with one. That gives the SH Tripod an advantage. Not a big one but still one.

[Paul]

How long would it take to kill a SH Mech with max armor and Armored everything compared to 2 Heavy Mechs?

I feel like we've been over that already.

Yep:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=69355.msg1610498#msg1610498

So, yeah, short form: the tonnage the Sh loses to the engine compared to its 2 opponents, plus the other tonnages it loses means those 2 Mechs will have significantly mroe throw weight. Especially when you insist the SH has to be further punished by having armored crits.

Then we add that -1 penalty the SH gets (a truly brutal nega-trait)
Then we add that the SH can't have access to certain armor and internal types (but the regular Mechs could)

And the only plausible outcome is the SH loses 100% of the time, save lucky shots. Sure, one of the other 2 Mechs is also dead. But the SH's negative attributes completely nullify its potential advantages, with plenty of negativity left over.

All of which ignores the rather significant advantage of being faster than it and just not giving it any targets at all, making the SH strategically as valuable as a pillbox. Only a problem when you feel like it, and then best resolved with artillery fire of bombing runs.

That gives the SH Tripod an advantage. Not a big one but still one.

An irrelevant one, compared to what it has to overcome to be competitive.

Super Heavies are a dead end unless the rules change. IE making one with Mimetic armor would drastically increase their utility.

[Alexander Knight]

When did SH Mech Bays become available?  ???

When basic cargo bays became available.   :)

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

It is the time to develop the standard container and the standard cargo bay for it, then.

----------------------

Remember that superheavy is susceptible against armor-piercing effects, although its odd is not that high. But able to cause crit for 10+ on a hit seems better approach than simply round off all the armor. Well, it is a moot idea, since the Society have no chance to encounter Inner Sphere force.

[Shin Ji]

The only reason I can see for super heavies is for them to be Artillery carriers in situations where tanks and such cannot do the job terribly well. But that is so hyper-specialized that it's hard to even argue it as a valid reason for their existence, let alone for a faction to mass produce them.

Honestly, even then, Heavies probably do the job better aside from being limited to Arrow IV.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

As the Heleopolis demonstrates, you can stick a Sniper artillery piece on a heavy mech.

[RifleMech]

When basic cargo bays became available.   :)

  ... It takes a lot longer to load and unload from a cargo bay than one of the other bays that units are deployed from. Unless you're infantry. Then it doesn't.

The only reason I can see for super heavies is for them to be Artillery carriers in situations where tanks and such cannot do the job terribly well. But that is so hyper-specialized that it's hard to even argue it as a valid reason for their existence, let alone for a faction to mass produce them.

Honestly, even then, Heavies probably do the job better aside from being limited to Arrow IV.

Artillery, Command,  Mobile Command Base, Mobile HPG, Troop Transport (If using those rules.) Plugging a hole in a defensive wall. Making a hole in a defensive wall. Being a decoy. A massive mobile repair/salvage/cooling unit. A massive engineering unit.

May not be better but could free up bays for better units.

[Alexander Knight]

  ... It takes a lot longer to load and unload from a cargo bay than one of the other bays that units are deployed from. Unless you're infantry. Then it doesn't.

The increase in time is really not that important unless you're being stupid and unloading within combat range of the enemy.

[RifleMech]

The increase in time is really not that important unless you're being stupid and unloading within combat range of the enemy.

No, you don't want to have to load or unload within combat range of the enemy. That it can be carried as cargo though doesn't mean there's a dedicated SH Mech Bay.

[Talen5000]

CLAMs required a two-seat cockpit arrangement and the Society was noted to be short on pilots, so that probably was enough to convince them to focus on other projects.  Like, as you said, the Glider protomechs.

The two seat arrangement was a fudge to bypass the need for specialist training. It may or may not have carried over to a production model.

LAMs probably would not be embraced by the Society. Great mobility but they pay for it with decreased lethality and increased fragility, and pilots would require increased training reducing numbers even more.

[RifleMech]

The two seat arrangement was a fudge to bypass the need for specialist training. It may or may not have carried over to a production model.

LAMs probably would not be embraced by the Society. Great mobility but they pay for it with decreased lethality and increased fragility, and pilots would require increased training reducing numbers even more.

I think the increased training would be what might discourage LAM use. Otherwise the Clan prototypes had a pretty good showing the one time they were in combat. Yes, they were destroyed but they went up against two 70 ton Mechs and won. LAMs also have advantages beyond straight combat. I think their use or lack thereof would depend on the cell. Some would hate them others might think they'd be useful. Maybe we haven't heard of them being used because the surviving Home Clans hate LAMs so much all mention of them were reaved?

[truetanker]

Hmm... SH transported by a Mobile Structure...

Now here's an idea...

TT

[Paul]

Finally, something slow enough for an urby to hunt.

[truetanker]

Paul?

Rattler vs. Urbies.

TT

[Col Toda]

No The Society is marked as a trail of annihilation by nearly all Clans so Zelbrdgen is not an issue . Artillary and Ortillary is on the table as well as WMDs so a Star of super heavys is a slow moving target VS a Star of Nagas and a Star of spotters at the same weight . Their best strategy is to make their own Deep periphery state a year + beyond the Taurens  and come back relabled in a couple hundred years . Leave behind a sacrifice force so the Clans can declare victory and forget about them .

[RifleMech]

Leave behind a sacrifice force so the Clans can declare victory and forget about them .

Maybe they did? Was everyone accounted for once the fighting was over? Or did they go straight into reaving the IS taint from the Clans?

[whistler]

Weirdo took a tripod up against a company (IIRC) of Urbanmechs in a city fight. I believe he managed to take out at least half of them before the end of the game, albeit with considerable damage incurred. So I feel like the SHs have a chance. If have to run the scenario myself to be sure though. Plus with clan tech there are a lot of scarry possibilities... can you imagine a tripod with a Supernova's weapons and the heatsinks to make it an alpha baby? Maybe even get a tarcomp on that puppy, pick them off from 25 hexes.

Also, I've not read the entire thread but reading some of the comments I go the mental image of a clan pilot, in battle armor, in a photometric, piloting the the tripod.

"Row, row, fight the power, trothkin."

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Weirdo took a tripod up against a company (IIRC) of Urbanmechs in a city fight. I believe he managed to take out at least half of them before the end of the game, albeit with considerable damage incurred. So I feel like the SHs have a chance. If have to run the scenario myself to be sure though. Plus with clan tech there are a lot of scarry possibilities... can you imagine a tripod with a Supernova's weapons and the heatsinks to make it an alpha baby? Maybe even get a tarcomp on that puppy, pick them off from 25 hexes.

You mean like the Ares D (Hephaestus)?

[truetanker]

Something like that,  but more... clanish.

Warhawk Prime / Dire Wolf Widowmaker hybrid configuration.

This would be epic, no?

TT