How to use yellowjackets in combat.

[Cannonshop]

You also failed to address the first point- your complaints are partly with how it performs in the contrived circumstances of table top play with small maps and BV caps.

Your first point was....pointless.

I've run Regimental games on tabletop (takes days, sometimes weeks, it's very complicated getting people to show up for the next match and record keeping is an absolute requirement.)

I've probably gamed it on broader circumstances than you have-it's not an effective tool.  Comparatively, it is less effective as a vehicle killer than some of the cheapest units you can get in the game, it's not an effective counterinsurgency machine, because it's slow and has the one gun only. (adittedly, converting ONE guy in a platoon to a fine pink mist per shot may have some morale impacts...but not really-even two isn't that useful.)  Because it is slow and it is easily seen.  it is not good for hunting 'mechs because unless the 'mechs are all 2/3 lights with short guns...it's not effective as a vehicle hunter unless the only vehicles on the map are demolishers.
.

It is simply useless unless the entire scenario is built specifically to make it useful, from the team it's part of, to the force it's up against, to the terrain being used.

the niche where something older that (presumably) costs less on the used market (and is more common) isn't better? is exceedingly narrow.  even limiting to the pre-clan DAVION R.A.T.  (because remember, this was fluffed and released as a Davion design.)

The Yellowjacket is less practical than the CGR-1A1 Charger.  (also by extension, less useful than a Hollander), this me being generous.  Your theory relies on Fluff, because you can't test it...or you refuse to test it.  I've come about as close as anyone here on this board to actually testing your ideas-and that was BEFORE you articulated them (by some years.)

I tried some way, any way, to make htis thing not a boat-anchor, and the closest I've come in more than 20 years in battletech gaming, and this is going with some truly ridiculous extremes including spending most of the summer of 2007 on a single battle using tabletop rules and a fixed table in my apartment (at the time), is that it has some use if the entire scenario is built around it from the ground up.

meaning everything is arranged to give it an advantage or mitigate its weaknesses.  everything.  that means not only applying hard limits on tech, but also speed limits, range limits, and P/G scores.  all of it, just to make the YJ useful.

this is the definition of a bad unit.  You have to actually design the entire scenario around it on both sides, including terrain, to make it useful.

(and even then, there are cheaper/older/lower-tech units that are even BETTER under those tailored conditions, in the same roles.)

In terms of Campaigning: To get those elite pilots, they have to survive missions.  This is ridiculously unlikely with a Yellowjacket.  The aircrew don't live to get better.


Come on, Colt they had to change the rules to even make it viable under ideal conditions.

[Cannonshop]

For the escort situation, wouldn't it be better if the whole scoring point is solely based on number of escaped transports for both sides? When you get points for killing opponents the whole escenario develops into a free for all instead of a directed transport hunting one. And it gimps the attacker since the defender can concentrat ein killing him while he has to go after the transports instead of shooting at the guys that shoot back.... Some points for killing enemies is cool, but the VP wighing for killing them over concentrating on getting the transports out seems off to me.

not really.  See, the PV for killing the transports only pays out to Side A.  by going after Side A's offensive units, side B is, effectively, protecting the transports.

dissimilar objectives.  Note that 12x15 is a lot more than 12x5-Side B has a lot of reason to protect the convoy.  OTOH, side A has the advantage of being able to pick and choose where to engage, while Side B has to go 'offense mode' to have that choice (attacking ahead of the convoy, which moves every turn toward the objective regardless of the wishes of Side B's player.)

this means side B has to split their force.  Side A doesn't have to do that, but can-except they don't get points for combat vehicle kills, only transports.

the whole scenario is designed to prevent 'park at medium range and roll dice', which is where bots, a large number of players, and most tourneys end up going.

there is also the built in time-limit on both sides thanks to the convoy's progress.  a GM setting it up with slow vehicles gives both sides more time, at the probable expense of giving one side a significant advantage, one setting up with the transports being fast (say, S-tank hovers or quick moving apc's) limits the amount of time side B has to rack up kills and pushes their escorts to stay ahead of the column.  (With slower combat vees, this means more flanking and thus, less accuracy).

objectively, the Side A player WANTS those vehicles to be slow.  It makes them easier targets for long range fire, after all, it also limits side B's options if the B player wants to actually succeed (IOW he has to play heavily to offense, instead of defensively).  Quicker column means Side A's player needs to play more to the offense, pushing to get earlier kills faster instead of trying to build a 'catcher's mit', this is because the column is harder to hit and you have less time for setting up the ideal ambush, more things can go wrong when you have less time to engage.

on the whole, it's a wash whether faster or slower is really better or worse, however by points-slanting toward a more offensive style for the escorting team, the match tends to take less time win-or-lose, as aggressive play tends to move faster even with slower units, than defensive play does.

with company-on-company this becomes kind of significant, espl. if you're playing at a venue with business hours or someone in your group has somewhere they have to be tomorrow.

[Cannonshop]

To be fair here, the Yellowjacket is a VTOL designed by 'mechwarriors, and not the ones who do scout missions in light machines.  It's pretty easy to see the underlying in-universe logic, because it ticks the boxes you'd expect someone with a hereditary tie to and investment in heavy 'mech tactics, who probably has zero seat time in anything else.

6/9 is blistering fast for an assault machine, and bigger gunz is alluz bettar, right? and slab on that armor like it's a...what, Enforcer maybe? yeah. sure, it'll do.  Nevermind the specifics of how it moves, it's a flyin' battlemech, so it needs to be built like one.

(Only it's not, and the thirty ton weight limit really stings in spite of the suspension factor).  'mechwarriors aren't used to the idea that you've got this flappy bit over the cockpit and if it's knocked off, you fall DOWN, likely to go boom unless you're going VERY slow and VERY low.

at most, the thinking is it's just a fancy hovertank.

(Only it's not).

but that's clearly the thinking involved in the underlying design.  In essence, it's a great example of how Procurement and "Testing" can be influenced by graft, incompetence, and corruption.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

So combined  arms are useless with yellowjackets.

That's opposite. Yellow Jacket is only usable on the combined arms formation.

[Kit deSummersville]

Not sure why the 'vehicle killer' keeps getting brought up, the Yellow Jacket's role is mainly to blast 'Mechs, at least when I use it. I don't use a ThunderHawk to kill vehicles, either, unless they're immobilized already by something else.

[grimlock1]

...Wait, there is an Arrow IV variant, right? Is it also means it can have two rounds of Davy Crocketts?

Oh, god.

:D Can we go back to talking about the VTOL armed with NUCLEAR MISSILES for a moment?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

W... well, I know how wonderful Ares Conventions is.

[Cannonshop]

:D Can we go back to talking about the VTOL armed with NUCLEAR MISSILES for a moment?

that is pretty much THE winning outfit for a Yellowjacket, and it IS a role no other VTOL can fill-lobbing nukes.  in which case, you really don't need any OTHER unit, just one Yellowjacket and a support staff to keep it filled and armed.

[Kovax]

:D Can we go back to talking about the VTOL armed with NUCLEAR MISSILES for a moment?

Ah yes, the dark allure of war crimes....

[Arkansas Warrior]

This is an aircraft that can be outrun (and outmaneuvered) by a hetzer.

Hold up.  Where are you getting Hetzers that can outrun a 6/9 VTOL?

[Cannonshop]

Hold up.  Where are you getting Hetzers that can outrun a 6/9 VTOL?

7/11 Arkansas. or did I get the damn model wrong?  (these designs blend together after more than 20 years...)

lemme look that up again.

[badswear/blaphemy/obscene language]  I need to fix that post.  finagle...

[Cannonshop]

error owned and edited/  seems I was mistaking it for another unit.  the correct statement would be "needs to be fighting a hetzer in open country to win."  (a very slight exaggeration for impact that no longer matters.)

[Kit deSummersville]

Hold up.  Where are you getting Hetzers that can outrun a 6/9 VTOL?

Well, those Quikscell marketing brochures will say anything to get a sale....

[Hellraiser]

As much as they were trying to make it a cheap floating Gauss, the 6/9 kills it in most cases.

It really would have been better being a XL powered design with only 1 ton of ammo & moving 9/14.

Not sure what the tonnage difference is between 40 ICE & 130 XL, but I'd be willing to pay that difference in Ammo/Armor just to make it so it could move/go up/down easier.

Because while I've used them in games, it really does need to be at extreme range so that nothing can hit it.

1 ton of ammo doesn't sound like much but the minute this thing takes fire you want to pull back & retreat anyway so 1 ton even for the Arrow model would be plenty in my book to allow it to go on short missions.

[Retry]

Well, those Quikscell marketing brochures will say anything to get a sale....

Internal testing has proven that our Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun can outrun and overtake even a speeding Yellow Jacket*!

*Yellow Jacket improperly maintained and tested in a damaged configuration with 3 pre-existing rotor hits.  Terms and conditions apply.  Results may vary.

[Daryk]

Retry has perfectly captured the spirit of Quikscell's marketing department (AND their legal department with that asterisk)…  ^-^

[Cannonshop]

As much as they were trying to make it a cheap floating Gauss, the 6/9 kills it in most cases.

It really would have been better being a XL powered design with only 1 ton of ammo & moving 9/14.

Not sure what the tonnage difference is between 40 ICE & 130 XL, but I'd be willing to pay that difference in Ammo/Armor just to make it so it could move/go up/down easier.

Because while I've used them in games, it really does need to be at extreme range so that nothing can hit it.

1 ton of ammo doesn't sound like much but the minute this thing takes fire you want to pull back & retreat anyway so 1 ton even for the Arrow model would be plenty in my book to allow it to go on short missions.

The hilarious part is, it would be even cheaper as a hovertank with a slight weight increase, and as a tank/assault gun, 6/9 wouldn't be a problem.  (which is kinda why I think it was specced and designed by a 'mechwarrior unfamiliar with how VTOLs actually function.)

[R.Tempest]

 It always seemed to me to be a desperation design. Here is the one weapon we have that performs as well as Clan weaponry. We have to get these out as fast as we can. Here is a cheap (relatively) and easy way to get Gauss rifles into the field. Build as many as possible and deploy them in as large groups as possible. Doctrine on tactics and deployment is being rewritten anyway.
 Also, while it may say that this was a Fed Suns design - at the time it would have been a Fed-Com design. It would have been intended to assist in the rebuilding of the units smashed by the Falcon's & the Wolves.
 The real question to me is: Was this so bad that a revised (perfected) gunship was not designed to make up for it's deficiencies? Upgrade the engine to an XL for more speed. Armor to Ferro-Fibrous (or is it Ferro-Aluminum for helicopters). Keep the Gauss of course. Deploy them in groups of 8 or 12.
 It's like it was decided that VTOL based big guns were no longer a viable concept.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

The hilarious part is, it would be even cheaper as a hovertank with a slight weight increase, and as a tank/assault gun, 6/9 wouldn't be a problem.  (which is kinda why I think it was specced and designed by a 'mechwarrior unfamiliar with how VTOLs actually function.)

A 40 tons, 7/11 and a gauss with a 105 ICE engine hover would be possible, with 7 tons of armor. Or 35 tons, 8/12 and 4 tons of armor. Both would give enough armor to sustain one gauss hit, while cheaper as you pointed out.

But.... well, since it is a tool for the ambush, I understand the reason of make it VTOL.

It always seemed to me to be a desperation design. Here is the one weapon we have that performs as well as Clan weaponry. We have to get these out as fast as we can. Here is a cheap (relatively) and easy way to get Gauss rifles into the field. Build as many as possible and deploy them in as large groups as possible. Doctrine on tactics and deployment is being rewritten anyway.
 Also, while it may say that this was a Fed Suns design - at the time it would have been a Fed-Com design. It would have been intended to assist in the rebuilding of the units smashed by the Falcon's & the Wolves.
 The real question to me is: Was this so bad that a revised (perfected) gunship was not designed to make up for it's deficiencies? Upgrade the engine to an XL for more speed. Armor to Ferro-Fibrous (or is it Ferro-Aluminum for helicopters). Keep the Gauss of course. Deploy them in groups of 8 or 12.
 It's like it was decided that VTOL based big guns were no longer a viable concept.

It seems that they didn't consider XL engine just because it is a cheap unit to replace the losses on the field. I think that you are correct - it is a desperation design. If you want something more powerful asset that can be compared by a line battlemech, most people will start with an XL engine.

[Elmoth]

Of you plan to replace mechs with vtols for anything but exploration it seems you might not have chosen the right platform. But I do not think the jacket is a mech replacement, since mechs are not used in the same way.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Yes, it is never be a good unit to the replacement of the most unit's role. But, if you are desperate enough to just need for anything cheap to keep the line(or at least help to) and also have pack a punch, even such a flawed unit with niche role can be quite viable.

Consider that it was a mass-production model that used by the house and also given to the most mercenary to against clans as well, they are meant to be the cheapshots to at least buy some times. You know, beggars can't be choosers. They have to use everything they can got, after all.

Also, while it can't be a replacement for your precious assets, but still it can dying out instead of it(and also sink the more powerful and precious enemy assets sometimes). It is the cruel truth of the warfare. Am I like the cheapshots over the quality? Not really. But there are many military forces that prefer quantity over quality, and quantity actually have the quality of its own right as well.

[Cannonshop]

Of you plan to replace mechs with vtols for anything but exploration it seems you might not have chosen the right platform. But I do not think the jacket is a mech replacement, since mechs are not used in the same way.

You're right, we don't use 'mechs as ablative means to supply gauss rifles and armor composites to the enemy as salvage.

It always seemed to me to be a desperation design. Here is the one weapon we have that performs as well as Clan weaponry. We have to get these out as fast as we can. Here is a cheap (relatively) and easy way to get Gauss rifles into the field. Build as many as possible and deploy them in as large groups as possible. Doctrine on tactics and deployment is being rewritten anyway.
 Also, while it may say that this was a Fed Suns design - at the time it would have been a Fed-Com design. It would have been intended to assist in the rebuilding of the units smashed by the Falcon's & the Wolves.
 The real question to me is: Was this so bad that a revised (perfected) gunship was not designed to make up for it's deficiencies? Upgrade the engine to an XL for more speed. Armor to Ferro-Fibrous (or is it Ferro-Aluminum for helicopters). Keep the Gauss of course. Deploy them in groups of 8 or 12.
 It's like it was decided that VTOL based big guns were no longer a viable concept.

except a Hovertank is both cheaper, and Faster, with less of a training budget needed to get it into the field. (Flying is by definition more complex than driving).

s an 'ambush' design..well...it isn't.  Ambushers need to be able to use concealment.  The best you can do with a VTOL is hide behind a rock, and your exhaust, noise, and so on are VERY evident even on 20th century sensors, nevermind 31st, and the sort of terrain features that you CAN hide behind are gonig to be visible on the other guy's maps even if he can't directly see YOU.  With the exception of the Hawk-Moth, the 'Big gun VTOL' really isn't viable without a massive investment-and the HM is only viable because it's got bare-minimum speed combined with one of the longest ranged main guns in the setting.  The Yellowjacket's movement spec and design fall firmly into 'mech designer ideas-that 6/9 is good enough, the armor would be respectable on a 30 ton 'mech with the same weapons fit, and so on.

the problem here, is that the YJ is a VTOL, which means an entirely different performance envelope applies here, along with different tactical restrictions native to the platform itself.  aka there are things you can't do with a VTOL, and things a VTOL can do that a 'mech can't (Ignoring woods and water hexes or other terrain obstacles).

Those weren't even considered when they were drawing up the YJ, and it shows in the actual, player-to-player reputation of the design (as opposed to the frantic fluff trying to make it look more viable than it is, and the wholesale change to VTOL mechanics to try and make it more relevant and viable).

in a sense, it's the Vickers Valiant of the VTOL set, only without the reasonable reaction that the real Valiant drew from British testing in the world war-it was designed to a set of requirements that were unrealistic in-setting, and if not for the frantic efforts of fluff-writers, would be one of those failed experiments in XTRO:Experimentals.

[Marveryn]

I think at this point we are just running around in circles on how to use this lovely machine.  I will admit never having use it.  I actually like it.  but I never consider that 6/9 would be consider too slow, giving that the speed of the early bug mech.  then again am the same sort that just like the look of the Hollander.. so ..err am not the one to ask about these things... sooooo pretty...……….by the way there a gauss rifle hovercraft which is 15 tons heavier then the yellow jacker, and 10tons heavier then the Hollander.  it is of course The Regulator

[Arkansas Warrior]

The hilarious part is, it would be even cheaper as a hovertank with a slight weight increase, and as a tank/assault gun, 6/9 wouldn't be a problem.  (which is kinda why I think it was specced and designed by a 'mechwarrior unfamiliar with how VTOLs actually function.)

I think we call that the Regulator.

[Cannonshop]

I think at this point we are just running around in circles on how to use this lovely machine.  I will admit never having use it.  I actually like it.  but I never consider that 6/9 would be consider too slow, giving that the speed of the early bug mech.  then again am the same sort that just like the look of the Hollander.. so ..err am not the one to ask about these things... sooooo pretty...……….by the way there a gauss rifle hovercraft which is 15 tons heavier then the yellow jacker, and 10tons heavier then the Hollander.  it is of course The Regulator

suggest you do some experimentation running VTOL forces.  Especially look at scenarios where both sides have them or where both sides have weapons common to the post-3050 world (LBX and similar, autocannons with flak ammo, mid sixties gives us dedicated AA LRMs and so on).

There's a reason I've brought up (repeatedly) the YJ's vulnerability to other VTOLs-for a while, we were experimenting with "All conventional" matches and scenarios-no 'mechs or BA, just choppers, tanks, hovers, and boats.

Y'know, the 'trash units'.  this kind of ended up shifting to the regular combined arms games, as people in the group I had at the time really grasped the value of things like LBX autocannons, infernoes, and the like.

But it also did something else-a few times, people would start making mistakes with the rest of their forces because I'd put something small and fast going after their 'fire support only' helicopters like the Yellowjacket.

ended up being a dogfight over the battle, and the YJ is NOT a good dogfighter.  (the Mantis did okay, surprisingly the Marten with it's dinky SRM-2 did pretty well...the Cyrano didn't (that's more on my dice luck-or lack thereof), but the Peregrine turned out to be pretty good for killing Yellowjackets and Hawk Moths, as did the Ferret, which turned out to be pretty good for keeping heavier, slower VTOLs from being able to hide and camp.)

Really, what you need, is to play a lot of games against live players and explore your own ideas.  Mine are the result of years of playing and three (or more) published core rules sets, ranging from the worst for any VTOL (Compendium) to 'pretty realistic' (BMR revised) to 'Changed everything in an effort  to make the yellowjacket viable' (Total Warfare.)

That last one didn't really succeed, but it did lower the base minimum useful speed to 8/12 for a combat chopper, thus saving the Hawk Moth from complete and total irrelevance.


I'll repeat what someone here pointed out though-if you REALLY love the Yellowjacket for its looks?  go with the PPC version that flies 9/14, or the Arrow IV variant with nukes.

[monbvol]

The Yellow Jacket is a design that can unquestionably benefit from some revisionist history since Fuel Cell engines were not a thing when it was first designed but have since been retconned in.

It will wind up with distressingly thin armor going all the way up to 8/12 but mitigating that with some ferro wouldn't be too unreasonable to me.

Heck even just getting it to 7/11 would be an improvement even if that is still suboptimal.

Sure it is more expensive either way but with how many more will come back versus becoming craters on the ground it is still a swap I'd seriously consider.

[Hellraiser]

mid sixties gives us dedicated AA LRMs and so on).

What?    Please, tell me more, what technology are you talking about?

go with the PPC version that flies 9/14, or the Arrow IV variant with nukes.

Not sure you have to have Nukes for the Arrow to work, LOL.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Not sure you have to have Nukes for the Arrow to work, LOL.

Its Arrow IV variant doesn't needs nuke to be functional, but one of the few VTOL that able to shoot nuke is a thing.

[Cannonshop]

What?    Please, tell me more, what technology are you talking about?
Not sure you have to have Nukes for the Arrow to work, LOL.

Jihad era, Free Worlds League.

[Cannonshop]

The Yellow Jacket is a design that can unquestionably benefit from some revisionist history since Fuel Cell engines were not a thing when it was first designed but have since been retconned in.

It will wind up with distressingly thin armor going all the way up to 8/12 but mitigating that with some ferro wouldn't be too unreasonable to me.

Heck even just getting it to 7/11 would be an improvement even if that is still suboptimal.

Sure it is more expensive either way but with how many more will come back versus becoming craters on the ground it is still a swap I'd seriously consider.

I'd actually recommend instead, having the fluff actually reflect the performance and act as a platform for explaining the much, much, much better Hawk Moth and the 9/14 PPC versions.  Something along the lines of actually admitting the Yellowjacket was a bad design with a good press department (and scads of internal corruption to get it adopted) before being revealed as a nearly-company-killing financial Failure once real (as opposed to marketing derived) reports on its actual performance came in, maybe spice it up with some resignations and/or arrests of involved executives and military officers (and some spicy lawsuits of the wrongful-death variety).