APC vs IFV

[Challenger]

Which do you prefer to equip your forces with, APCs or IFVs?

I’ve always lent towards IFVs because who doesn’t want to bring an extra bunch of guns to the fight. The problem is my IFVs have a much higher attrition rate than my APCs, which is a major headache if my enemy decides to relocate to a different map sheet (as mechs are wont to do)

Strategically this is even more of an issue with Battle Armour. Its not improbable to imagine mission killing companies at a time by killing the IFVs that will not only be moving them to the next battlefield, but recharging their batteries as well...

Thats my take, but how about yourselves, whats your opinion?

Challenger

[AlphaMirage]

I normally deploy 3 APCs per IFV to give the infantry platoon some standoff capability but more importantly to launch smoke rockets.  However I prefer using light (less than 50t) combat vehicles for the job.

[Weirdo]

I prefer IFVs when possible, who doesn't like extra guns? But sometimes I don't have the spare BV, or I need the speed a particular bare-bones APC provides, in which case I have no issue at all using largely noncombatant APCs.

[Kovax]

Depends on the situation.  The setup I prefer is to have at least one IFV with long-range fire capability to provide some support until the footsloggers can move into place (generally into heavy woods) from where I was able to drop them off.  Usually, for the rest of the troops, I'll pick an APC version with at least some short-range firepower, in case someone decides to make life unpleasant for my freshly deployed troops or my long-range support IFV.  Normally, I don't want the APCs getting into combat, but they should have some ability to defend themselves.

The Goblin is a reasonably effective IFV, with a LL to provide some stand-off firepower, although an LRM rack would be better for the purpose for a number of reasons.  Some of the Heavy APCs carry a platoon of infantry plus a modest SRM rack, and enough armor to survive a round or two against a typical light unit sent to mess with them.  If someone wants to have a go at 1:4 odds (or 1:8 if you include the infantry), I like to have the tools on hand to make that an expensive mistake.  One LL isn't much of a deterrent, neither are 3 SRM racks, but a LL to punch holes and 3 SRM racks to plug those holes with explosive ordnance should make a bug-'Mech pilot think twice.  I also used the APCs to support my infantry against other foot troops, where their SRMs allow them to sit back and plink from well outside of most infantry weapon ranges.  Against 'Mechs or most combat vehicles.....bad idea.

[GreekFire]

I prefer IFVs when possible, who doesn't like extra guns? But sometimes I don't have the spare BV, or I need the speed a particular bare-bones APC provides, in which case I have no issue at all using largely noncombatant APCs.

Yeah, mostly this. Things like the R10 tend to be the units that I prefer playing with, even though they aren't the quickest nor the toughest. There's a part of me that just doesn't really like having something like a Karnov act like another initiative sink in a force that's already has infantry in it. Feels cheesy.

Also unrelatedly, I really wish the Galleon "Maxwell" or something close to it had entered full production at some point.

[Weirdo]

It's only an initiative sink if you use it as such.

[Daryk]

Kovax: That probably explains why the Goblin has an LRM variant...  ^-^

More seriously, what I built in my Glenmora Planetary Militia thread were combined arms companies comprised of one lance of Goblins (1 LRM, 1 SRM, 1 MG, and 1 AC/20 (custom) variant) and two platoons of infantry each.

[RifleMech]

Generally a mix of vehicles. IFVs for the spear head and APCs to bring up more troops and supplies from the rear and take wounded back. Some infantry will get trucks or VTOLs depending on their weight, wealth, or mission. Specialized Infantry will get a vehicle suited for their type.

[Hellraiser]

Which do you prefer to equip your forces with, APCs or IFVs?

Depends on the force & the infantry.

Spec Ops in BA probably get moved in a Maxim.

Foot Militia probably get moved in a Heavy Hover APC.

Karnovs of all flavors get used for almost everything BUT moving the Militia Foot Infantry.

[RifleMech]

Karnovs of all flavors get used for almost everything BUT moving the Militia Foot Infantry.

They could drop a lot of paratroopers.

[Daryk]

Ziplines work too...

[RifleMech]

Ziplines work too...

Yep  :thumbsup:

[Hellraiser]

They could drop a lot of paratroopers.

True, but I feel like Paratrooper training isn't what Foot "Militia" are trained in.

Point being I don't use Vtols for the basic cheapo security grunts.



Question:    Can Motorized use Ziplines?   

[Daryk]

I don't think so... I have to dig up my TacOps to be sure...

[Empyrus]

APCs or IFVs...
On one hand, APCs are focused and cheap, and if their escorts (or your main combat units) are dangerous enough, they might not even get shot at.
On the other hand, IFVs offer greater versatility, durability (usually) and can contribute to the battle after deploying troops but they also attract more attention by themselves and one needs to devote more BV (or C-bills or whatever) to them compared to APCs of equivalent capacity.

Intel matters though. If i don't know what i'm going into, i'm more inclined to take mixed transportation. First line has IFVs, second line is made up from (fast?) APCs. If i do know, then i can naturally tailor my forces as needed.

That's the theory anyway. In practice, i pay attention to aesthetics and other stuff as well, and most BT IFVs leave me kinda cold. For example, the Kuritan Mamono IFV is kinda cool but way too slow. Or the Bolla Stealth Tank is just... well it is too big really, and kinda expensive. So i tend to focus on APCs, and just bring proper tanks with them.

[Daryk]

Found it... page 187 of the Advanced Rules half of the new split TacOps says "foot or jump" infantry can use zip lines, so I take that to mean motorized is out...

[Sartris]

Motorized platoon with seven LAC/2 field guns zip lining onto a level seven building and driving to the ground floor

[Daryk]

 ???

[RifleMech]

True, but I feel like Paratrooper training isn't what Foot "Militia" are trained in.

Point being I don't use Vtols for the basic cheapo security grunts.



Question:    Can Motorized use Ziplines?

Not all of them but some.

Basic cheapo grunts get trucks. For me, use of VTOL APCs depends on terrain and distance. Sometimes the other options aren't practical.

[Hellraiser]

Motorized platoon with seven LAC/2 field guns zip lining onto a level seven building and driving to the ground floor

Hmm,  LAC-2 + Ammo = 5 Tons * 7 Of them = 35 Tons + 6 Tons of Infantry = 41 Tons....

Even with External Cargo rules, that is either a very big or very slow Vtol.


I mostly asked about Motorized because I do like to use a Karnov to move a 6 ton Motorized "support" platoon to claim a good patch of hill/trees early & create an area denial zone.
Usually I have to land & let them advance but was curious if there was a faster way.
Didn't really think they could given the whole "scooter bikes" doesn't fit zip lines concept but you never know what the game rules will let you do, hehe.

[Col Toda]

I prefer fast APC transport . Put a combat vehicle  Fuel Cell engine in a Karnov you still get the 11/17 movement profile  with more armor and 8 tons of infantry or Battle Armor  . The idea is to spend the turn it arrives is the turn it deploys.  The idea is infantry and battle armor is area denial units they should be in place  and dug in before any other units arrive so the transport is not a huge target. If you must bring them with the formation one solution  is choosing a transport that it is not valuable.  In design sectiion under non combat vehicles pg 3 the  thread called " Has anyone tried  "  single battle armor suit ultralight VTOL  small support vehicle.  Flank speed  35 so it moves almost 2 map boards lands and the battle armor dismounts in the movement phase . So the battle armor is in the hex you want or next to it first turn of combat . Are the enemy going to waste firepower on diposable 25,000 C bill unarmed vehicles while armed targets are shooting at them . Similar principle as shooting on the second further away hovertanks with alot of rocket launchers  the  on in your face firing at will not be shooting at you ever again  while the second wave will shooting you at close range next turn . As all weapons phase is simultaneous you can make it pointless  to shoot at the closest easier targets and valuable further away .

Say you have have a platoon of battle armor in coming  one in a maxim hover APC or 12 separate suits in ultralights . One target is valuable target the other in a combined arms situation just soaks up fire and eats multi target penalties so it is better to let them land and form up into squads to better to drstroy them . The aforementioned Karnov is 1.2 or 1.5 million  C bills the stock ICE on is about 900,000 C  bills .  So you can buy 36 ultralights for the price of 1 ICE Karnov  .

[Cannonshop]

Which do you prefer to equip your forces with, APCs or IFVs?

I’ve always lent towards IFVs because who doesn’t want to bring an extra bunch of guns to the fight. The problem is my IFVs have a much higher attrition rate than my APCs, which is a major headache if my enemy decides to relocate to a different map sheet (as mechs are wont to do)

Strategically this is even more of an issue with Battle Armour. Its not improbable to imagine mission killing companies at a time by killing the IFVs that will not only be moving them to the next battlefield, but recharging their batteries as well...

Thats my take, but how about yourselves, whats your opinion?

Challenger

APC or IFV?

The correct answer is "YES please!"

it's not really an either/or opposition.  Everything has a lot to do with what you're using that infantry for.

IOW one should match the chassis to the mission-and the mission is the PBI's, but more to the point, the mission that you've formulated your infantry to conduct.

For APC usage, fast is the only good option.  slow undergunned deathboxes aren't worthy of consideration, esp. if they are able to carry large numbers of grunts all at once, making those grunts dead all at once when they're hit because they don't move for shit.

mission in this case would be seizing an objective while the 'mechs and heavy units with ACTUAL weapons are keeping the opfor busy and focused, or slipping some of your self-propelled landmines into a crease where they're giong to be hell to remove and the enemy HAS TO or he's surrounded/cut off by spotters.

IFV usage is for the grind, and the only 'speed limit' here is 'can it keep up with the tanks' (or get slightly ahead of them.)  The key with ifv is that your vehicle fights along side your grunts, providing covering fire, smoke, and heavy weapons to give the PBI's some openings to make life hell for the other guy.

you know, right before they make him dead.

There are, of course, variations on that theme, but the basic thing to keep in mind is simply what are your infantry there to do?

then, your selection becomes "Pick something that helps them to do that thing."

[Hellraiser]

For APC usage, fast is the only good option.  slow undergunned deathboxes aren't worthy of consideration, esp. if they are able to carry large numbers of grunts all at once, making those grunts dead all at once when they're hit because they don't move for shit.

Completely agree with the entire post with one exception for this part here......For "fluff" and not the table top anyway.......

I would say you could do this for a Militia, Police, Security, Rear Area, etc etc type unit.

Something cheap & easy to produce like the Wheeled Heavy APC isn't anything I want to PLAY with, but, I can at least see why some urban militia deployed units might have them.

Essentially like Deuce & Half trucks in the army.

Useful for logistical movement, but I certainly don't want to combat deploy from one.

Otherwise faster is better & the more expensive C-Bill chassis are the faster ones so Vtol > Hover > Tracked > Wheeled.

Don't get stuck in terrain unless your in woods w/ Tracks & you actually WANT to be there for cover.


Basically by mission, I want Hover/Vtol for Offense with Tracked for Defense
Wheeled for Fluff Logistics off the game board.

Unless of course wheeled is the only option like when the RAT table gives you Schiltrons or Thor/Thumper for artillery.

[Cannonshop]

Completely agree with the entire post with one exception for this part here......For "fluff" and not the table top anyway.......

I would say you could do this for a Militia, Police, Security, Rear Area, etc etc type unit.

Something cheap & easy to produce like the Wheeled Heavy APC isn't anything I want to PLAY with, but, I can at least see why some urban militia deployed units might have them.

Essentially like Deuce & Half trucks in the army.

Useful for logistical movement, but I certainly don't want to combat deploy from one.

Otherwise faster is better & the more expensive C-Bill chassis are the faster ones so Vtol > Hover > Tracked > Wheeled.

Don't get stuck in terrain unless your in woods w/ Tracks & you actually WANT to be there for cover.


Basically by mission, I want Hover/Vtol for Offense with Tracked for Defense
Wheeled for Fluff Logistics off the game board.

Unless of course wheeled is the only option like when the RAT table gives you Schiltrons or Thor/Thumper for artillery.

If you're having to put your civilian police in a slow moving armored box at half a company of strength, you've already got problems well beyond national defense.

Police vehicles should be light weight, practical, and capable of catching a fleeing motorist in a civilian car.  alternately, if you're putting your riot cops in a track that tops out at 20KPH, they'll get to the riot right about the time it's already wound down and ended, with the damage already done.

if anything, Police oriented vehicles should be fast, to get to a point of trouble and resolve the situation before it escalates into several billion C-bills in property damage and/or the perpetrators getting away with it.

You're not doing yourself, or your citizens any favors loading up two platoons of riot cops to get there after the commercial district is in flames and the rioters have already moved on.

[Elmoth]

Real life antiriot police tends to come in reinforced vans. Not armoured, but they can take a hit from improvised weapons. Given the "improvised weapons in BT, they should be armoured in BT.

[Hellraiser]

I wasn't trying to compare to Civilian Squad Cars for patrolmen.

I was more thinking of the 10 ton APC as being the BT equivalent of a SWAT Truck + Armored Car (Ram).
Or an up-armored Humvee for MPs

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I can see several concerns.  At the highest level, you need to be able to pay for enough transports for all the troops you wish to mechanize.

This is why Heavy APCs are serving in even front line RCTs.  The budget doesn't stretch to Goblin IFVs and such for every company, much less every platoon.

Another cost consideration is "does a tank and APC together cost less than a combined IFV".  This is complicated by needing a larger IFV to carry troops, or if say a dozen IFVs (roughly an infantry battalion's worth of transport, if one in four carry command elements only) require less than that in tanks to for the same firepower if you switch to APCs.

However dedicated vehicles mean more vehicles, including crew, support, transport, and spares.  Even if you cheat Kowloon style and build your IFV on a modified MBT chassis.

Plus you have doctrine/command issues.  If you give an infantry battalion a "dedicated" tank company, or a regiment a "dedicated" tank battalion?  How many nanoseconds after they deploy will some officer feel the infantry "don't need those tanks right now" and seek to get them assigned to reinforce their own mission?

[Cannonshop]

Real life antiriot police tends to come in reinforced vans. Not armoured, but they can take a hit from provided weapons. Given the "improvised weapons in BT, they should be armoured in BT.

Yeah, but those vans are still capable of highway speeds (55 MPH or 90 KPH).  Riot cops arriving too late are about as useful as not having them at all.  (Kinda like firemen and ambulances that way) and the longer it takes to get those crowd-control cops 'on the scene' the more damage to your tax-base you're going to have to eat in repairs and consequences after.

Urbanmechs are a different bit of fish-you aren't relying on their 30KPH top speed to get across town-that's what the 'mech transporter truck (which goes a bit faster) is for, but for putting down a line of riot cops, you need enough protection to handle small arms and molotovs and enough speed to actually get from central precinct to, say, Queens before the borough's entirely engulfed in fires and rioters.

It's a simple calculus: every minute you spend putt-putting to the riot at 15 miles an hour (the speed of a trotting man) is another block of shops, homes, and infrastructure that has been trashed and won't be generatng tax income to pay for rebuilding.

[Terrace]

Given all this, I should note that I've been fiddling with the basic Wheeled APC on MML. Is 10/15 an appropriate speed for a ground-based APC, or is that too fast?

[Hellraiser]

That is 100 MPH.

No US Military vehicle goes that speed to my knowledge.

Even if they can, they have governors to stop them from hitting that speed.

But in BT go as fast as you can.  :)

[Hellraiser]

Yeah, but those vans are still capable of highway speeds (55 MPH or 90 KPH). 

So is a Heavy Tracked APC,  which is arguably the slowest common BT APC.

Everything else goes up from there unless its a full on TANK like the Goblin that just happens to pack in a sqaud of grunts.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

Yeah, but those vans are still capable of highway speeds (55 MPH or 90 KPH).  Riot cops arriving too late are about as useful as not having them at all.  (Kinda like firemen and ambulances that way) and the longer it takes to get those crowd-control cops 'on the scene' the more damage to your tax-base you're going to have to eat in repairs and consequences after.

Sarna.net has an entry for a Law Enforcement Support Hovercraft, the Dillinger.  It's from the Vehicle Annex TRO.  That seems to fit your bill, fast at 7/11, only armed with machine guns, often with rubber bullets.  Also has a ton of military grade comm gear and paramedic equipment.  Fluff says the world that originally built them was in the Chaos March and these served as a kind of mobile command post for major incidents.

[Cannonshop]

That is 100 MPH.

No US Military vehicle goes that speed to my knowledge.

Even if they can, they have governors to stop them from hitting that speed.

But in BT go as fast as you can.  :)

um, NO. you need to hit the calculator.

10/15 is not 100 miles per hour.  distances and speeds are measured in metric units

100 KPH is 60 miles/hour.

150 KPH is barely 93 miles/hour.

1 Kilometer is .62137 miles in length.

Basically, that Hovercraft moves about the same speed and speed curve, as your average modern pickup truck or over-the-road semi.  In fact, most modern automobiles can out-pace it.

[Weirdo]

To be fair, can't most modern automobiles also outpace most modern APCs and IFVs?

[Cannonshop]

To be fair, can't most modern automobiles also outpace most modern APCs and IFVs?

yep...however, there's an 'envelope' of performance between police vehicles and vehicles designed for actual live combat.

[Terrace]

um, NO. you need to hit the calculator.

10/15 is not 100 miles per hour.  distances and speeds are measured in metric units

100 KPH is 60 miles/hour.

150 KPH is barely 93 miles/hour.

1 Kilometer is .62137 miles in length.

Basically, that Hovercraft moves about the same speed and speed curve, as your average modern pickup truck or over-the-road semi.  In fact, most modern automobiles can out-pace it.

I wasn't doing the hover version. I was working on the wheeled model. And in this case, doesn't 10/15 refer to its off-road speed? Wheeled combat vehicles move even faster when travelling on roads.

[Retry]

um, NO. you need to hit the calculator.

10/15 is not 100 miles per hour.  distances and speeds are measured in metric units

-snipperoni-

Hexes are frequently stated to be 30 meters across while in-game turns take place over a period of 10 seconds.  Dividing the length by the time interval reveals that for every 1 hex that can be crossed translates to 3 m/s in speed.

A 10/15 hovercraft can cross 15 hexes in one turn, and thus its flanking speed is 45 m/s.

45 m/s can be effortlessly converted to mph, because both represent the same dimensional quantity.  45 m/s translates to 100.662 mph.

Hellraiser's claim that 10/15 is 100 mph is accurate to two significant figures, almost three significant figures.

Just as a quick double-check, the Cavalry helicopter has the same movement speed, and is listed as having a top speed of 162 km/hr.  That translates to... 100.622 mph.

Measure twice, cut once, and perhaps apologize to Hellraiser?

[Colt Ward]

To be fair, can't most modern automobiles also outpace most modern APCs and IFVs?

Depends on if the governor is installed . . .

 . . . guess what gets removed when you end up in a place folks are shooting at you?

Additionally, that is road speed . . . while it lets a car drive faster it does not tend to let a military track or wheel drive too much faster.  Fastest I ever got a M1068 up to was around 70 mph on a sandy flat during a test drive.  I did not go faster b/c at that speed the difference in track tensions and sand caused the vehicle to start yawing left/right . . . it was right after they converted the M577s to that standard but before they put in the governors- injuries from that speed is part of why they put in the governors, 577s did not need them since downhill on a ice covered street with a tailwind might get you 35mph.  Post WWII 30 mph for most vehicles was acceptable.

I will agree with Cannonshop, for just dropping troops you want the most speed- even over armor. 

For my Chaos March era mercs, I prefer the Blizzard APCs- 9/14 with room for 6t and a LRM5 or SRM4? on a turret.  I use 6 suit squads and 44 man infantry platoons (two 22 man splits for TW or 11 man squads w/TacOps squad rules) so the larger bay to haul gropos helps . . . especially since some of the suits I have are GDL Stds which means they cannot assault drop from VTOLs (need to see if MM allows that).  I also have a close & ready supply as well as being cheap- wish we had a FCE version.  The later Saxon would be nice as well, but its just 5t cargo.  For RP/fluff, I am thinking of getting some Bailey Armored Cars (6/9 wheeled) for rear area/garrison purposes though I wish we could get a militarized version in the Jihad.

When I was using the 17th Avalon Hussars for a table top tournament, I was using a Ripper (Infantry) to move BA squads and kicking out the loaded squad in the first turn with the 12/18 speed.  Turn 2, I would put it in reverse, land and load a 2nd BA squad (usually Grenadiers) to move forward to be dropped off in Turn 3 or 4 depending on opposing units and map lay out.

[Terrace]

I think one thing that should be considered is that if you're mixing APCs and IFVs in the same platoon/company, making sure they have the same speed is important, because such a formation moves at the speed of its slowest unit on the strategic scale. If all the troops are aboard, then the slowest unit (and the one that sets the pace) is either one of the APCs, or one of the IFVs.

[Hellraiser]

um, NO. you need to hit the calculator.

10/15 is not 100 miles per hour.  distances and speeds are measured in metric units

100 KPH is 60 miles/hour.

150 KPH is barely 93 miles/hour.

1 Kilometer is .62137 miles in length.

Basically, that Hovercraft moves about the same speed and speed curve, as your average modern pickup truck or over-the-road semi.  In fact, most modern automobiles can out-pace it.

Uhm, NO, you need to redo your math & realize that 30M / 10 Seconds is not 10 KPH.

Retry already pointed it out but 15 MP is 162 KPH which is just over 100 MPH.

And why exactly would 93 v/s 100 be worth a huge debate anyway?

[Hellraiser]

Fastest I ever got a M1068 up to was around 70 mph on a sandy flat during a test drive. 

Impressive, most impressive.

Short of taking hummers for drives on the autobahn I've never gotten a military vehicle even close to that speed.  Let alone a tank.  35 sure,  45 maybe a few times when hauling arse on flatland.

[Colt Ward]

Well, the M577 engine went from something like . . . 200? HP to 480 w/ a upgrade to the transmission and a improvement in steering.  Once it started to shimmy it got a bit scary . . . but its why they put in governors to cap them at around 40.  I saw someone slam on the breaks on the same course and lift the last half of the roadwheels off the ground- the brakes were that effective . . . TCs were getting busted ribs.  Heard the M270, w/o governor on a flat, could do 65ish . . . but military vehicles are more variable than civie cars IMO.

Lol, in New Mexico on the border we were pushing hummers as fast as they could go . . . old pieces of junk that felt like they were shaking apart at 55-60 on a very smooth highway.

As for the mph vs kph . . . yeah, my old head math was the run/flank speed in km would match up with the walk/cruise speed in miles.

[Cannonshop]

Hexes are frequently stated to be 30 meters across while in-game turns take place over a period of 10 seconds.  Dividing the length by the time interval reveals that for every 1 hex that can be crossed translates to 3 m/s in speed.

A 10/15 hovercraft can cross 15 hexes in one turn, and thus its flanking speed is 45 m/s.

45 m/s can be effortlessly converted to mph, because both represent the same dimensional quantity.  45 m/s translates to 100.662 mph.

Hellraiser's claim that 10/15 is 100 mph is accurate to two significant figures, almost three significant figures.

Just as a quick double-check, the Cavalry helicopter has the same movement speed, and is listed as having a top speed of 162 km/hr.  That translates to... 100.622 mph.

Measure twice, cut once, and perhaps apologize to Hellraiser?

Speeds are listed in TRO entries, and consistently in KPH since the first publication of TRO 3025.  (hell, we can go back to the paperbacks if you REALLY want to.)

Hex calculating is meaningless here, we have set values, published speeds, they're not derived from mathing out the mapsheets.

[Hellraiser]

Speeds are listed in TRO entries, and consistently in KPH since the first publication of TRO 3025.  (hell, we can go back to the paperbacks if you REALLY want to.)

Hex calculating is meaningless here, we have set values, published speeds, they're not derived from mathing out the mapsheets.

I can't believe I'm asking this but have you read those TROs?

Because, from day 1 in this game its NEVER been 10 KPH per MP.

The Pixie in 3025 was 6/9 & had a top speed of 96-97 KPH.
Ditto the Wasp/Singer.

The 4/6 mechs were always given the speed of 64.8 KPH.

Which comes directly FROM mapping out 30 meters / 10 second turn.

30m * 6 turn = 180m / Minute  * 60  =  10,800 MPH  =  10.8 KPH / MP.

6 MP = 64.8 KPH

[boilerman]

Which do you prefer to equip your forces with, APCs or IFVs?

I use a mix but mostly APCs because I like cheap. Lately it's been heavy APCs with a little twist, 1 foot infantry infantry platoon per vehicle. The other 3 tons are for a BA tube artillery piece, scaled up to 2 tons for vehicles, and a ton for ammo.