Fight Night: MON-67 Mongoose vs WLF-1 Wolfhound

[Minemech]

 Who will prevail more often? In the left corner, we have the light weight Mongoose! On the right, we have the Wolfhound! Both competitors are durable for their mass. Will the Mongoose's 8/12 curve be a decisive edge, or will the Hound's extra 2 tons of armor prove to be too much?

Lets get started, 2x2 random mapsheet game games. The pilots are 4/5s. There will be 1000 games. Go!

[Brakiel]

I went with the Wolfhound being marginally superior. The difference in armor protection and the Large Laser are just enough to offset the speed advantage. The Mongoose can’t really try to poke at hexes 7-9 with a high movement mod, because that’s still medium range for the LL. Rushing in close would be all-or-nothing, since their laser arrays are effectively the same. It’s also compounded by the fact that 2 of the Mongoose’s lasers are in the arms, so they’re less protected and it can’t fire and punch. The Wolfhound has thicker armor and more internal structure than the Mongoose, so on average it’s more likely to win a close range fight. Still would be fairly close, though.

[Natasha Kerensky]

About even, I think.

Firepower is the same once they really engage (three medium lasers).

The Mongoose’s superior attacker/defender movement modifiers are about offset by the Wolhound’s thicker armor and additional internal structure.

On relatively clear mapsheets, a good Mongoose player could press the Wolfhound’s flanks/rear, avoiding the bulk of the Wolfhound’s torso-mounted firepower.  But the Mongoose’s attacker movement modifiers will go up, and mapsheets with a lot of terrain will not make that strategy viable.

That strategy will probably work for the Mongoose about as often as the Wolfhound gets a lucky large laser hit or two on the Mongoose while it’s closing.

So again, about 50/50, IMO.

[Retry]

I abstained.

Strictly speaking, the Wolfhound is likely to come out on top in a 1v1 brawl.  However, on the field I'd actually rather have the Mongoose.  It fits a role of armed reconnaisance extremely well, and quite cheaply for a Battlemech.  As such, it very much fits a well needed role, and does so with flying colours.

The Wolfhound doesn't really do the combat recon thing, and is more of a fast mid-range brawler.  The problem is that, in its intended role, it competes directly with fast mediums like the venerable Phoenix Hawk.  Even though the WLF-1 will likely beat a MON-67 in a fight, it doesn't stand out quite as much compared to its peers like the MON-67 does.

[Fat Guy]

This looks as close to a "pick 'em" as any of the Fight Nights so far.

Flip a coin.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think the Wolfhound’s superior armor, IS, and firepower will tell more than the Mongoose’s speed.

[Decoy]

I actually think it's going to come down to the 8 point holes the Wolfhound's going to put into the Mongoose. Med Laser+Large Laser has a greater chance of connecting on the same point than three medium lasers. Furthermore, the rear firing laser is going to have an impact if the Mongoose gets behind the Wolfhound and the Goosie's armor's less than intact at that point.

I love them both though.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

I actually think it's going to come down to the 8 point holes the Wolfhound's going to put into the Mongoose. Med Laser+Large Laser has a greater chance of connecting on the same point than three medium lasers. Furthermore, the rear firing laser is going to have an impact if the Mongoose gets behind the Wolfhound and the Goosie's armor's less than intact at that point.

I love them both though.

If the Goose wants to keep out of that large laser's arc?  It can't go for a backshot.  Standing in that arc will allow the Wolfhound to torso twist and crank the large laser arm around for a shot instead of it's rear medium laser.

[LastChanceCav]

I went with slight advantage wolfhound thanks to the superior armor and LL. It's a tough call for two of the best lights around.

Cheers,
LCC

[Greatclub]

If the Goose wants to keep out of that large laser's arc?  It can't go for a backshot.  Standing in that arc will allow the Wolfhound to torso twist and crank the large laser arm around for a shot instead of it's rear medium laser.

There is a hex two back of the wolfhound and one left where neither the large nor the frontal mediums will hit, but the goose is still in back arc.

This one would come down to terrain and initiative rolls. I'm not fond of this type of fur-ball fight.

[Charistoph]

Pilot skills will tell as well.  If the Mongoose runs in the wrong terrain, it could be falling, which would make it easier for the Wolfhound to Alpha Strike.  Falling would hurt the Wolfhound, too, but considering the speed to firepower advantages in this fight, not as much as the Mongoose.

[Kovax]

Too close to call, in my opinion.  The MON has a significant speed advantage, which is offset by the WLF's longer reaching LL and thicker armor.  Terrain will likely play a part, but I suspect it would mainly come down to player skill and playing style.

Note that any time the MON wins Initiative, it can dictate the range, and either close to 1-3 range, or at 6 where the LL gets the same range penalty as a ML, and the WLF can't fire the LL and even 2 MLs on consecutive turns without heat issues.  That puts them at pretty much equal firepower on average, with 1 point better to-hit odds for the MON versus better ability to soak a few hits by the WLF.  Ultimately, it will likely come down to WHERE the occasional hits land, and how well or poorly they're grouped or spread.

That said, while the WLF is a great design, I'd slightly prefer running the MON, purely as a matter of playing style.  In essence, the WLF is a lighter version of a PXH-1K, while the MON is a heavier and much harder-hitting LCT, which are also favorites of mine.

[Elmoth]

Wolfhound. If he only has one target (the mongoose) its superior firepower and armor will rule the day. Not by much, but enough to be significant.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Lets get started, 2x2 random mapsheet game games. The pilots are 4/5s. There will be 1000 games. Go!

  I usually set up MegaMek to have the bots fight these out, although the Mongoose really needs a finesse pilot...

First fight:

Initiative Phase for Round #4
-------------------
ZZZ rolls a 3[3+0].
Mon67 rolls a 10[10+0].
Wlf1 rolls a 6[6+0].

The turn order for movement is:
  Wlf1, Mon67

Wind direction is Northeast.  Wind strength is Calm.  The weather is Clear.  Visibility is Daylight.
  Fog level is None.
ZZZ: 0 BV remaining (from 0 initially) 0 BV fled
Mon67: 723 BV remaining (from 741 initially) 0 BV fled
Wlf1: 901 BV remaining (from 949 initially) 0 BV fled

Targeting Phase
-------------------
 

Movement Phase
-------------------
 

Offboard Attack Phase
-------------------
 

Weapon Attack Phase
-------------------
Weapons fire for Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1)
    Medium Laser at Mongoose MON-67 (Mon67); needs 5, rolls 6 : hits  LA
        Mongoose MON-67 (Mon67) takes 5 damage to LA.
            3 Armor remaining.


    Medium Laser at Mongoose MON-67 (Mon67); needs 5, rolls 6 : hits  RT
        Mongoose MON-67 (Mon67) takes 5 damage to RT.
            5 Armor remaining.


    Medium Laser at Mongoose MON-67 (Mon67); needs 5, rolls 5 : hits  RA
        Mongoose MON-67 (Mon67) takes 5 damage to RA.
            Armor destroyed.
             2 Internal Structure remaining.
            Critical hit on RA. Roll is 8; 1 location.
            CRITICAL HIT on Hand.


Weapons fire for Mongoose MON-67 (Mon67)
    Medium Laser at Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1); needs 4, rolls 9 : hits  HD
        Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) takes 5 damage to HD.
            4 Armor remaining.

        Pilot of Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) "Inga Aaberg" takes 1 damage.       
Pilot of Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) "Inga Aaberg" needs a 3 to stay conscious.  Rolls 12 : successful!


    Medium Laser at Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1); needs 4, rolls 11 : hits  CT (critical)
        Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) takes 5 damage to CT (critical).
            11 Armor remaining.
            Critical hit on CT. Roll is 10; 2 locations.
            CRITICAL HIT on Standard Gyro.
            CRITICAL HIT on Standard Gyro.


    Medium Laser at Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1); needs 4, rolls 7 : hits  RL
        Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) takes 5 damage to RL.
            6 Armor remaining.


    Small Laser at Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1); needs 4, rolls 12 : hits  RA
        Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) takes 3 damage to RA.
            9 Armor remaining.




Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) must make 2 piloting skill roll(s) (gyro hit; gyro destroyed).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
    Roll #1, (gyro destroyed); automatically fails.
    Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) falls on its right side, suffering 4 damage.
        Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) takes 4 damage to RL.
            2 Armor remaining.

Pilot of Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) "Inga Aaberg" must roll 9 to avoid damage; rolls 4 : fails.
        Pilot of Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) "Inga Aaberg" takes 1 damage.       
Pilot of Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) "Inga Aaberg" needs a 5 to stay conscious.  Rolls 10 : successful!


Physical Attack Phase
-------------------
 

Heat Phase
-------------------
Mongoose MON-67 (Mon67) gains 10 heat, sinks 10 heat and is now at 4 heat.
Wolfhound WLF-1 (Wlf1) gains 10 heat, sinks 10 heat and is now at 7 heat.

Control Rolls
-------------------

End Phase
-------------------

  I'm not a big fan of TAC...as it can skew results, as any hit, no matter how small, could mess up the heaviest target. Mongoose win, 999 fights to go...

[Getz]

I've given it marginally to the Wolfhound.  With skill the Mongoose can deliver the same effective firepower and will prove difficult to hit, but I figure the Wolfhound has enough of an advantage in armour and structure to carry the day more often than not.

[LastChanceCav]

Based on the MUL, BV has it 949 to 741 in favor of the WLF-1. It's  a testament to the quality of thr 67 Mongoose that we have it this close.

Cheers,
LCC

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Based on the MUL, BV has it 949 to 741 in favor of the WLF-1. It's  a testament to the quality of thr 67 Mongoose that we have it this close.

  The Mongoose pilot could be 3/5 or 4/4 and still have a BV under 900.

[grimlock1]

Too close to call, in my opinion.  The MON has a significant speed advantage, which is offset by the WLF's longer reaching LL and thicker armor.  Terrain will likely play a part, but I suspect it would mainly come down to player skill and playing style.

Note that any time the MON wins Initiative, it can dictate the range, and either close to 1-3 range, or at 6 where the LL gets the same range penalty as a ML, and the WLF can't fire the LL and even 2 MLs on consecutive turns without heat issues.  That puts them at pretty much equal firepower on average, with 1 point better to-hit odds for the MON versus better ability to soak a few hits by the WLF.  Ultimately, it will likely come down to WHERE the occasional hits land, and how well or poorly they're grouped or spread.

That said, while the WLF is a great design, I'd slightly prefer running the MON, purely as a matter of playing style.  In essence, the WLF is a lighter version of a PXH-1K, while the MON is a heavier and much harder-hitting LCT, which are also favorites of mine.

Until I land 2-3 hits with the Wolfie's large laser, I wouldn't bother with the mediums. Once there are a couple spots with less than 5 armor, the next hit is going internal.  Although, there isn't a whole lot in machine to worry about in terms of crits. No ammo bins, no juicy double heat sinks, no 3+ crit weapons. But in that sense, the Mongoose has an advantage.  There's no point in critical checks for a breach to the 'Goose's side torsos, there's nothing there.  The arm mounted lasers have 3 other sacrificial crits.  Technically 4, but shoulder crits cause other problems.   A crit on the Wolfhound's side torso means loosing 1/3 of the short range fire power.

Maybe its a bit of fanboy, but I'm coming down slightly on the Wolfhound side.

[Kit deSummersville]

There's no point in critical checks for a breach to the 'Goose's side torsos, there's nothing there.

That just means they transfer to the CT.

[Arkansas Warrior]

That just means they transfer to the CT.

In this case, that's a significant advantage for the Wolfhound.  But it's a rule I've never liked in general.  It effectively means that on a mech like the Mongoose, the engine, gyro, etc take up 3x the space.  Why not just have the shot do internal damage and ignore the crit chance roll, since there's nothing to crit?  The same applies to the Wolfhound in a different way; since it only has 1 ML in each side torso, each effectively takes up 12 crits; there's no chance of an internal his simply passing by the single occupied crit.

[Nikas_Zekeval]

In this case, that's a significant advantage for the Wolfhound.  But it's a rule I've never liked in general.  It effectively means that on a mech like the Mongoose, the engine, gyro, etc take up 3x the space.  Why not just have the shot do internal damage and ignore the crit chance roll, since there's nothing to crit?  The same applies to the Wolfhound in a different way; since it only has 1 ML in each side torso, each effectively takes up 12 crits; there's no chance of an internal his simply passing by the single occupied crit.

I took it as more that there was nothing there but open structure to absorb a critical hit.  Instead the shot passes through till it finds something, in this case the equipment in the center torso.

[House Davie Merc]

I picked about even ,but I was close to choosing a slight advantage for
the Mongoose .
Many years ago -before even TRO 3025 came out -I made a custom
light mech that was my standard light unit in our games .
It's nearly identical to the Mongoose .

In the right hands and with the right terrain it would eviscerate
the Wolfhound . 
Since the Wolfhound lacks jump jets that large laser can only maintain a
range advantage for 1 or 2 rounds . During those rounds the to-hit rolls
should make those shots impractical .
Once an 8/12 unit closes to short range with a 6/9/0 it usually gets to dictate
when and where the shots take place unless the Mongoose looses initiative repeatedly .

I chose 50/50 because not all terrain will allow the Mongoose to maneuver,
and sometimes you loose consecutive initiative rolls .
Also many players just aren't  experienced with light unit combat .

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Also many players just aren't  experienced with light unit combat .

  Exactly.