Author Topic: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?  (Read 5173 times)

Tangoforone

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 300
Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« on: 20 January 2020, 00:11:59 »
So I am putting together a WoB MD force for a game in February, and the Field Commander is piloting the Archangel Invictus.  Using Interstellar Operations for implants, I accidentally discovered this might be one of the best command mechs in the game, considering what a command unit should do (like the Mobile HQ).  I had been told the Invictus variant is woefully dreadful in damage output (25), and I did not use it for a long time due to that, but now it is time to open our mind-eye and look past damage output

Starting the pilot at a 3/4, below are the following implants that he has been granted and why they matter:

-VDNI:  Obviously this is critical for the small cockpit.  -1/-1 to gunnery/piloting brings his total to 2/4 (BV cost is now at 2/3)

-Artificial Pain Shunt:  Obviously this is critical to implement with the VDNI.  Ignore piloting damage to VDNI feedback from internal structure and critical hits, heat effects, and ammunition explosions. (BV cost is now 2/2)

-Dermal Armor Implants:  Ignore pilot damage from falling and hits to the head (BV cost is now 1/1)

-Triple-Core Processor (this is the fun one):  +2 initiative bonus and +1 initiative bonus w/ C3i (+3 to force initiative roll total).  This would drop down to +2 only if an enemy ECM was within range of the Archangel, however because the Invictus carries a Guardian ECM, this downside is negated, and the Guardian ECM acts as a counter ECM that negates enemy interference (my understanding means that my C/O getting cut off from C3i is not a concern, so long as he is in range of the opposing ECM).  Not only this, but my pilot automatically succeeds on all heat shutdown rolls, excluding the 30 heat threshold.  This is a fairly cool mech, but not a bad feature.  And finally, this pilot may execute aimed shots as if the unit is equipped with a Targeting Computer; since the Invictus is already equipped with a TC, this pilot may apply a -1 to the 'to-hit' roll when making aimed shots.  (BV Cost is now 0/1)

Final cost of the Archangel Invictus, with a 2/4 skilled pilot, comes in at 5,167 BV.  Not bad for how impossibly painful it will be to put this fellow down.  Is this BV worthwhile for a 100 ton zombie-mech that is a 3/5/3 mover and can only output 25 points of damage out to a range of 15 hexes?  Let me know your thoughts, and I will post how he faired after the game (around the first week of February)


Maelwys

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4879
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #1 on: 20 January 2020, 01:22:23 »
Cybernetics can definitely help the Archangel Invictus, though I'm not really sure it helps it better than any other unit in the game.

One thing to keep in mind, that even with ALL the zombieness of the design, and all the benefits from the cybernetics, a GR to the head will still kill it dead.

With 25 damage, plus the physicals, one other problem the Invictus can have...it can be ignored. You can mitigate it somewhat with called shots against weakened locations, but it barely outdamages at range a Wolfhound.

Of course, its an Omni, so if you don't like it after the first battle, it can always change...

Oh, and don't forget to look at the quirks. You can get a free BAP out of it...

Caedis Animus

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2129
  • How can a bird be sultry? Very carefully.
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #2 on: 20 January 2020, 03:11:55 »
One thing to keep in mind, that even with ALL the zombieness of the design, and all the benefits from the cybernetics, a GR to the head will still kill it dead.
I never quite 'got' why they didn't bother giving the Archangel a T-MC. I mean, I get that the theme of the Celestials was 'small cockpit because Cyberbois', but I feel like being the only Celestial with that would go a long way towards establishing the Archangel as an 'unkillable monster' as it were.

Maelwys

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4879
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #3 on: 20 January 2020, 08:27:22 »
I don't have the time to dig through it, but I'm not sure if the Torso-Mounted Cockpit can take a DNI system or not, which may have been a consideration.

Tangoforone

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 300
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #4 on: 20 January 2020, 15:03:32 »
I'm not sure that I would want a torso mounted cockpit.  I get that there is significantly more armor in that location, but with the hit location table as it stands, the center torso is always under fire.  And while it mounts a significant amount of armor in the rear, I can't say that it has the maneuverability to avoid enemies getting in the rear, though the jump jets help, so it really does come down to winning initiative and having your forces keep the enemy from getting at it. 

Fortunately it doesn't really seem to need to brawl (though a 100 ton mech with a retractable blade isn't anything to sneeze at) as its weapons have decent ranges, with the Plasma Rifle reaching 15 and the Heavy PPC reaching 18.  If it stays back and effectively uses the C3i, it could ignore range modifiers completely.

I have never played a mech with a torso mounted cockpit so I would have to rely on your experience as to whether or not they are more survivable.  My big concern is the snake eyes roll on the to-hit chart could lead to an instant kill.  While it still can, it's much less likely to roll a 12 on number of crits and hit the engine three times or the gyro twice, while just getting one critical hit has a chance of taking out the cockpit.

Maelwys

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4879
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #5 on: 20 January 2020, 19:02:05 »
You might want to look into an "Edge" stat, depending on how much you want to play around with things, just to kind of smooth out some of the jolts for the RNG.

And if the Invictus doesn't work, well, its an Omni, so there are always other choices of variants :)

Caedis Animus

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2129
  • How can a bird be sultry? Very carefully.
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #6 on: 21 January 2020, 02:00:15 »
I have never played a mech with a torso mounted cockpit so I would have to rely on your experience as to whether or not they are more survivable.  My big concern is the snake eyes roll on the to-hit chart could lead to an instant kill.  While it still can, it's much less likely to roll a 12 on number of crits and hit the engine three times or the gyro twice, while just getting one critical hit has a chance of taking out the cockpit.
I play with Floating Crits at any tech above intro, so this isn't as much of a problem at second glance.

Which, arguably, is kind of a rule you should be using if you're in a game where T-MCs and tech like it are in play.

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #7 on: 21 January 2020, 03:12:36 »
I think I'd rather have my commander in something more mobile. Archangel might be tough, but it's also slow; making it a "Kill it now, with fire" priority target by putting your initiative booster in it is unlikely to end well. It's also easy to get an ECM near. 

Preta Dominus, OTOH, is a mech few others can both catch and put down. It's also a lot cheaper in BV, so you can buy more & bigger mechs to benefit from the boost you're handing out.

Caedis Animus

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2129
  • How can a bird be sultry? Very carefully.
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #8 on: 21 January 2020, 05:51:44 »
I think I'd rather have my commander in something more mobile. Archangel might be tough, but it's also slow; making it a "Kill it now, with fire" priority target by putting your initiative booster in it is unlikely to end well. It's also easy to get an ECM near. 

Preta Dominus, OTOH, is a mech few others can both catch and put down. It's also a lot cheaper in BV, so you can buy more & bigger mechs to benefit from the boost you're handing out.
I'd argue more for a Deva Infernus. Twin ERPPCs and an ECM unit means it can lead from the back and help the frontline with supporting fire, and you can expect it to be durable enough to take a hit or two.

Maelwys

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4879
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #9 on: 21 January 2020, 08:37:51 »
On the other hand, why not go whole hog and go with the Archangel Luminos? More durable theoretically, matches the twin ERPPCs of the Deva and has the GECM suite.

Sir Chaos

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Artillery Fanboy
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #10 on: 21 January 2020, 08:39:38 »
I think I'd rather have my commander in something more mobile. Archangel might be tough, but it's also slow; making it a "Kill it now, with fire" priority target by putting your initiative booster in it is unlikely to end well. It's also easy to get an ECM near. 

On the other hand, the Archangel is TOUGH, and it deals very little damage for either its size or the number of hits it can tank. In the time it takes to kill it, you could kill two, maybe three mechs that each deal more damage than the Archangel does.
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
-Frederick the Great

"Ultima Ratio Regis" ("The Last Resort of the King")
- Inscription on cannon barrel, 18th century

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #11 on: 21 January 2020, 09:36:03 »
I'm with the OP. While mobile command rides that can keep a commander out of trouble (or extricate them when the inevitable happens), are quite laudable, there is definitely something to be said for a machine likely to survive a heavy or sustained artillery bombardment, while a Preta or Malak caught in a lucky strike is going to want to look for ways to bug out pretty quickly.

Similarly, the weapons loadout is not a hindrance, but a bonus. Commanders don't fight, they command. Having a light load compared to other hundred-tonners means that inexperienced players are less likely to feel like they're wasting firepower by keeping the Archangel out of LoS, and having that load be predominantly medium to short range means nobody makes the mistake of trying to use their commander as a sniper.

So you end up with a machine that stays behind cover for much of the battle, but when headhunters do come after it, even factoring in the fact that anything can happen in a game with headcaps and TaCs, the Archangel is extremely likely to survive such a strike, and possibly even fight it off solo.

In fact, I really want to play this scenario now. A command Archangel with a couple escorts(not sure what yet, but we'll tentatively max it out at a combined arms L2), vs a Jihad-era force (any faction, composition up to the player within the bounds of DBaJ) with 150% the BV of the WoB player. Victory objectives are simple: If the WoB commander is destroyed, the Attacker wins. Any other result is a WoB victory. Sounds fun?
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

dgorsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1982
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #12 on: 21 January 2020, 10:37:30 »
Going all the way back to the top: commanding what?  Level II?  Level III?  If the former, is it light, medium, heavy?
Think about it.  It's what we do.
- The Society

Thunder LRMs: the gift that keeps on giving.  They're the glitter of the BattleTech universe.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #13 on: 21 January 2020, 11:18:52 »
Level III or higher. Command rides like this are for units big enough that you can afford to keep mechs away from the front line without seriously depleting your strength, but need a command post that can move when needed and defeat headhunter attacks.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #14 on: 21 January 2020, 13:03:55 »
I do not know, I have a aversion to putting the CO in something that is only going to be faster than a 3025 Annihilator.  I absolutely support a rugged design that is fast enough to get out of the way or respond to changes, especially when it mounts long range weapons.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #15 on: 21 January 2020, 13:31:50 »
Fast and rugged I definitely like, but I'm still against giving commanders long-range weapons. Too much temptation for players to move their COs into LoS with enemy units. Commander/Enemy LoS is something that happens when said enemy contacts your plan, but it should never be part of the initial plan unless combat is taking place on a featureless plain.

LRMs or artillery? Okay, I'll agree with those.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #16 on: 21 January 2020, 13:38:46 »
Yeah, I was thinking mostly LRMs . . . and I will admit, its influenced by most of the war-game style battles I fight are on MM and use double blind.  The servers had a set up for a long time where you had to have a commander per a lance of mechs and for a company of armor (if you used it) . . . commanders fell and you had the init penalty IIRC.  People got pretty cagey about the COs and some folks in large battles went headhunter if they had the right force mix.

I think the Patriot sort of does it right, except too slow.  The 2C version has AMS, ECM and TAG while sporting a A4 as its contribution to the rest of the battalion or regiment its commanding.  Something gets close, the Patriot can TAG it to allow others to come to the CO's aide while offering that big 15 point hit for anyone who gets too close.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #17 on: 21 January 2020, 13:45:42 »
Sounds to me like you want to stick your boss in a trebuchet...which coincidentally puts you in the same group as the vast majority of working adults. :)
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #18 on: 21 January 2020, 14:42:46 »
Lol, in the past sure . . . but I work for a pretty good mom & pop right now.

Then again, I do not like to get bogged down with 3/5 designs unless the object is to pull a Jaguar and smash into the defenses head first.  For me it was part of the disappointment with the Celestials that both heavies were 4/6, I would have liked a faster Omni in that range using the new tech but considering what the Shadow Divisions were to do, it makes some sense.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #19 on: 21 January 2020, 15:19:17 »
Remember, the Domini used more than just Celestials. Sounds to me like your Blakist boss-ride of choice might be a White Flame.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Arkansas Warrior

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9210
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #20 on: 21 January 2020, 15:27:34 »
So I am putting together a WoB MD force for a game in February, and the Field Commander is piloting the Archangel Invictus.  Using Interstellar Operations for implants, I accidentally discovered this might be one of the best command mechs in the game, considering what a command unit should do (like the Mobile HQ).  I had been told the Invictus variant is woefully dreadful in damage output (25), and I did not use it for a long time due to that, but now it is time to open our mind-eye and look past damage output

Starting the pilot at a 3/4, below are the following implants that he has been granted and why they matter:

-VDNI:  Obviously this is critical for the small cockpit.  -1/-1 to gunnery/piloting brings his total to 2/4 (BV cost is now at 2/3)

-Artificial Pain Shunt:  Obviously this is critical to implement with the VDNI.  Ignore piloting damage to VDNI feedback from internal structure and critical hits, heat effects, and ammunition explosions. (BV cost is now 2/2)

-Dermal Armor Implants:  Ignore pilot damage from falling and hits to the head (BV cost is now 1/1)

-Triple-Core Processor (this is the fun one):  +2 initiative bonus and +1 initiative bonus w/ C3i (+3 to force initiative roll total).  This would drop down to +2 only if an enemy ECM was within range of the Archangel, however because the Invictus carries a Guardian ECM, this downside is negated, and the Guardian ECM acts as a counter ECM that negates enemy interference (my understanding means that my C/O getting cut off from C3i is not a concern, so long as he is in range of the opposing ECM).  Not only this, but my pilot automatically succeeds on all heat shutdown rolls, excluding the 30 heat threshold.  This is a fairly cool mech, but not a bad feature.  And finally, this pilot may execute aimed shots as if the unit is equipped with a Targeting Computer; since the Invictus is already equipped with a TC, this pilot may apply a -1 to the 'to-hit' roll when making aimed shots.  (BV Cost is now 0/1)

Final cost of the Archangel Invictus, with a 2/4 skilled pilot, comes in at 5,167 BV.  Not bad for how impossibly painful it will be to put this fellow down.  Is this BV worthwhile for a 100 ton zombie-mech that is a 3/5/3 mover and can only output 25 points of damage out to a range of 15 hexes?  Let me know your thoughts, and I will post how he faired after the game (around the first week of February)
An MD in any mech could get most of those same benefits.  What is it about the Archangel Invinctus specifically that makes it a good command mech?
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #21 on: 21 January 2020, 15:39:45 »
Tough enough to handle a headhunter or artillery strike, well-armed enough to fight off said headhunters, but not armed in such a way that players can be suckered into using it as a sniper or generic assault mech.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28994
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #22 on: 21 January 2020, 15:40:21 »
Remember, the Domini used more than just Celestials. Sounds to me like your Blakist boss-ride of choice might be a White Flame.

Oh yeah, I consider them sort of like the Death Commandos- does the mech exist during the time frame?  Yes . . . then it could exist in a Shadow Division.  But among the Omnis the SD can field from the IS, the Black Hawk KU is the only heavy that is 5/8 . . . then again, I am not really sure a command mech should be a Omni- your wasting their advantage of changeable load-outs and BA carrying.  If your battalion or regiment fields a Omni, then they should be the tip of the spear since they SHOULD have a advantage against standard battlemechs.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #23 on: 21 January 2020, 15:59:06 »
I dunno... standard engine, good mobility and armor, several configs give crazy medium-close punch...and doesn't the Triple-Core Processor also provide overheat-related benefits? You could do a lot worse than a Black Hawk KU...
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Tangoforone

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 300
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #24 on: 22 January 2020, 20:42:07 »
An MD in any mech could get most of those same benefits.  What is it about the Archangel Invinctus specifically that makes it a good command mech?

Specifically, the Archangel Invictus already has the GECM and the Targeting Computer so the effects from TCP are enhanced, as well as a C3i system.  And like others said, I think the command mech shouldn't be super fast and should stay behind.  It's also super underpowered so why waste valuable ammunition and time chipping (literally in the Archangels case) away at armor when more dangerous weapon platforms exist. 

Thinking back to the Civil War/Napoleonic era specifically, but any era could be considered, leaders of the force were on the battlefield, but were far behind the battle lines issuing commands to the battalions/regiments via horse riders.  I'm not an expert on Civil War tactics, but I imagine the battlefield commander was likely not handed a musket and sent to the front line to lead.  Obviously there are events that differ from this, Julius Caesar leading charges into the enemy stand out, but speaking generally commanders don't/shouldn't get into the thick of combat.  They are commanders for reasons, and their talent leading and the investment it took for them to be leaders should not be risked in order to muck about trying to kill a Locust or an LRM carrier.

Maelwys

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4879
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #25 on: 24 January 2020, 12:12:02 »
It also has the command mech quirk, so if you're playing with those turned on, then you gain an initiative bonus, though I have to admit, I have no idea how quirk and implants stack off hand.

Col Toda

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2963
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #26 on: 12 February 2020, 09:05:02 »
Wow 5000+ BV for just 1 mech . For that much BV for that 1 mech I could field  9 LRM trailers with 5 LRM 15s with 8 turns of duration  .  With average gunners about 9 at medium  range say 40 + percent  or so hits 45 shots say 19 hits at 9 damage per turn at a price of about 12 million C Bill's.  .  Running 5   3 turns gets short range . Maybe 240 ish damage before it gets over the hill you are behind .  Add rubble fields to slow closure . That just represents  the BV of 1 mech .  Yes it is a nice command mech but in an even BV situation  the MD unit can get drowned in numbers . Though a more normal  op force would attempt to blunt the initiative  advantage with a Command Console. The MD unit would still have an initiative  advantage .
« Last Edit: 12 February 2020, 09:12:06 by Col Toda »

Church14

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1113
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #27 on: 12 February 2020, 10:33:45 »
Minor thought. But bVDNI gets you the same result as VDNI here but at less BV penalty if I understand it correctly.

Also, did Dermal Implants get errata? As best I could follow it, my copy of IO lists them as having no BV penalty for a mech. Which seems weird.
« Last Edit: 12 February 2020, 10:35:50 by Church14 »

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #28 on: 12 February 2020, 10:39:35 »
-VDNI:  Obviously this is critical for the small cockpit.  -1/-1 to gunnery/piloting brings his total to 2/4 (BV cost is now at 2/3)

-Artificial Pain Shunt:  Obviously this is critical to implement with the VDNI.  Ignore piloting damage to VDNI feedback from internal structure and critical hits, heat effects, and ammunition explosions. (BV cost is now 2/2)

-Dermal Armor Implants:  Ignore pilot damage from falling and hits to the head (BV cost is now 1/1)

Why not a buffered VDNI?  Although from what I can see in IO, pain shunt nerfs everything that bVDNI does and more...

Although VDNI is available to Omegas, but bVDNI is only available to Omicrons.  Does that mean an up and coming MD would have to bank on making Omicron, or could they get the VDNI and trade it out for the buffered version later?
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Church14

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1113
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #29 on: 12 February 2020, 11:05:41 »
Why not a buffered VDNI?  Although from what I can see in IO, pain shunt nerfs everything that bVDNI does and more...

Although VDNI is available to Omegas, but bVDNI is only available to Omicrons.  Does that mean an up and coming MD would have to bank on making Omicron, or could they get the VDNI and trade it out for the buffered version later?

The difference (as best I understand) between VDNI with pain shunts and bVDNI with pain shunts *for a mech with a small cockpit* is that you pay an extra pilot skill BV penalty for VDNI.

VDNI will reduce actual pilot skill while bVDNI ignores the small cockpit penalty. You do have a slightly higher risk of pilot damage from falls with bVDNI as it doesn’t reduce your pilot skill

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #30 on: 12 February 2020, 12:28:55 »
You do have a slightly higher risk of pilot damage from falls with bVDNI as it doesn’t reduce your pilot skill
Only in normal cockpits though.  And Celestials all have Small Cockpit anyway.

I have a question in to the Rules section to find out if a Torso Cockpit is considered a Small Cockpit for bVDNI or is it just a small cockpit.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Caedis Animus

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2129
  • How can a bird be sultry? Very carefully.
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #31 on: 12 February 2020, 13:49:23 »
It'd be a little annoying if Torso Mounted Cockpits are unaffected, considering TMCs have a penalty for the same reason as small cockpits.

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #32 on: 12 February 2020, 14:24:08 »
Reading the VDNI rules from IO, VDNI modification is installed to a cockpit, with no limits specified. Presumably this means it is compatible with standard, small, and torso-mounted cockpits.
Standard VDNI cybernetic seems to be compatible with torso-mounted cockpits, since the rules don't actually say anything about cockpit types. The VDNI piloting bonus and TMcockpit piloting penalty simply cancel out.
bVDNI cybernetic specifies that small cockpit penalty does not apply even though the system doesn't otherwise give a piloting bonus. Unclear if lack of torso-cockpit mention here is an oversight or if the system imposes piloting penalty for other reasons. Should be noted that though TMcockpits are cramped like small ones, they're also fully reliant on sensor systems for piloting a 'Mech, perhaps this is the reason bVDNI is no help here.

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #33 on: 12 February 2020, 15:17:54 »
Reading the VDNI rules from IO, VDNI modification is installed to a cockpit, with no limits specified. Presumably this means it is compatible with standard, small, and torso-mounted cockpits.
Standard VDNI cybernetic seems to be compatible with torso-mounted cockpits, since the rules don't actually say anything about cockpit types. The VDNI piloting bonus and TMcockpit piloting penalty simply cancel out.
bVDNI cybernetic specifies that small cockpit penalty does not apply even though the system doesn't otherwise give a piloting bonus. Unclear if lack of torso-cockpit mention here is an oversight or if the system imposes piloting penalty for other reasons. Should be noted that though TMcockpits are cramped like small ones, they're also fully reliant on sensor systems for piloting a 'Mech, perhaps this is the reason bVDNI is no help here.
But isn't part of the point of DNI of any stripe that it many of the things a normal pilot would glean from looking out the window are piped directly into the pilot's brain? 
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #34 on: 12 February 2020, 15:31:22 »
But isn't part of the point of DNI of any stripe that it many of the things a normal pilot would glean from looking out the window are piped directly into the pilot's brain?
Not necessarily. The system descriptions don't imply this actually happens, only that DNI systems allow fluid control over vehicles.
As far as i can figure and recall things, normal neurohelmet merely transmits balance, whereas DNI systems add kinesthetic sense (that is, ability to tell where and how your body is positioned, in this case body being a 'Mech) and replace part of controls with thought. Machina Domini extends this concept even more.

The Clan EI system might actually include visual information, this would fit the name, the fact standard ProtoMechs don't really allow the pilot to even look at screens, and that it adds ability to make aimed shots and other sensor information.

Then again, IS ProtoMech controls are based on standard VDNI, so it might allow visual information. Then again, given that system's requirements, it is possible the pilot uses some kind of conventional VR display (with no relation to the VRPP system) with VDNI.

That said, i do think torso cockpit differences don't seem large enough to make it distinct from small cockpit for bVDNI rules. Not to mention art depicting torso-mounted cockpits nearly always with what appear to be windows or viewports...

dgorsman

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1982
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #35 on: 12 February 2020, 15:48:56 »
Until there is an official ruling, I think a strict reading of the rules is in order i.e. when it says the buffered version ignores the penalty for small cockpits it means that literally and only that.
Think about it.  It's what we do.
- The Society

Thunder LRMs: the gift that keeps on giving.  They're the glitter of the BattleTech universe.

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #36 on: 13 February 2020, 09:22:07 »
Until there is an official ruling, I think a strict reading of the rules is in order i.e. when it says the buffered version ignores the penalty for small cockpits it means that literally and only that.
I agree that we need to wait for a ruling.  I believe that bVDNI should ignore the Torso Cockpit penalty, but until I see something explicit, I agree with your interpretation of RAW.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Col Toda

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2963
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #37 on: 13 February 2020, 11:24:21 »
From what I understand  BVDNI also halves range and terrain  penalties  . This is why it is so expensive  . The balanced BV solution  of drowning  the MD unit with numbers kind of work when they are not chucking WMDs . The MD unit tends to cost 5-6× a standard unit so is the MD units blasts 2 or 3 times it's  numbers it still loses.

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #38 on: 13 February 2020, 12:52:02 »
From what I understand  BVDNI also halves range and terrain  penalties  . This is why it is so expensive  . The balanced BV solution  of drowning  the MD unit with numbers kind of work when they are not chucking WMDs . The MD unit tends to cost 5-6× a standard unit so is the MD units blasts 2 or 3 times it's  numbers it still loses.
On the table, buffered is -1 to gun, ignore small cockpit penalty, and checks for feedback damage are less frequent.  On the BV side, buffered is cheaper because the bv skill modifier is only to gunnery. 
Are you thinking of EI?  That ignores darkness, and reduces the penalties for intervening smoke, woods and jungle hexes.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Tangoforone

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 300
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #39 on: 29 February 2020, 03:28:24 »
So I ran through the game a couple weeks ago and here are my findings:

1:  This thing is stupid hard to kill.  Some of it due to unlucky hits, some due to not being targeted, some due to the fact that it basically maxes out armor and can shoot enemies if all of its arms and torsos are gone, and some due to the fact that the pilot is nigh invincible with pain shunts and dermal armor implants. 
2:  It is extremely heat efficient, and so should be firing its weapons almost every turn.
3:  It is most effective when the C3i is spread out, but still in range.  The first couple rounds the C3i mechs were grouped together and thus had similar targets; though not necessarily bad to have similar targets, it would be better to have more options for targets.  What we should have done was spread out more so that we had more availability in shooting units that were easier to hit (lower movement mods, less terrain in the way, etc. since range is ignored barring the closest unit in the network).

In the end I liked it, but probably didn't use it to its full potential as I held it out of the fight too long.  It's a really good mech if you have to 'run' the game and answer questions or judge rulings from players, but still want to be a part of the game since it literally consists of waddling a whole 3 to 5 hexes then shooting two weapons and potentially rolling a d6 for extra heat dealt from the Plasma Cannon/Rifle/whatever the f--- it is (I get those two confused and don't have the record sheet on me).  Did get a chance to stab a mech in the body with its retractable blade, so that was pretty neat.

grimlock1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2087
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #40 on: 02 March 2020, 13:44:01 »
Did get a chance to stab a mech in the body with its retractable blade, so that was pretty neat.
Did you get the extra crit? >:D
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Tangoforone

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 300
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #41 on: 03 March 2020, 23:58:04 »
Did you get the extra crit? >:D

What extra crit? I had heard rumors about this floating around on the forums, but when I reviewed Total Warfare rules it appears that the retractable blade gets no such thing  :-[

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1797
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #42 on: 04 March 2020, 00:02:22 »
What extra crit? I had heard rumors about this floating around on the forums, but when I reviewed Total Warfare rules it appears that the retractable blade gets no such thing  :-[

It's on TO. If you make a punch attack(yes, punch, NOT blade attack) with an arm with retractable blade and hits, you may pop the blade and cause a critical on the struck part, although the blade is broken on 10+ if you did.

It is funny that the only usable melee weapons are not the standalone weapons, but something enhances punches and kicks.
« Last Edit: 04 March 2020, 00:09:23 by PuppyLikesLaserPointers »

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #43 on: 04 March 2020, 00:29:09 »
All published weapons are by definition usable. If they weren't, they wouldn't be in a rulebook.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #44 on: 04 March 2020, 00:40:19 »
It is funny that the only usable melee weapons are not the standalone weapons, but something enhances punches and kicks.

There are hatchet + TSM combos I consider quite usable. I'll trade a -1 to hit so I can connect with something other than a leg (Legs are heavily armoured, are more likely to be intact when reaching melee range due to the location table, and you don't trip like if you miss your kick)

Don't get me wrong, I like retractables. But giving my opponent a TacOps rule so I can get that one is rarely worth the trade.

All published weapons are by definition usable. If they weren't, they wouldn't be in a rulebook.

I think he is using the term to mean 'worth the tonnage'

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #45 on: 04 March 2020, 00:52:36 »
I think he is using the term to mean 'worth the tonnage'

That's not at all what the word 'usable' means. 'Efficient' is a perfectly usable word, no need to replace it with one with a completely different meaning.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1797
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #46 on: 04 March 2020, 01:32:03 »
There are hatchet + TSM combos I consider quite usable. I'll trade a -1 to hit so I can connect with something other than a leg (Legs are heavily armoured, are more likely to be intact when reaching melee range due to the location table, and you don't trip like if you miss your kick)

Don't get me wrong, I like retractables. But giving my opponent a TacOps rule so I can get that one is rarely worth the trade.

I'd rather enjoy TSM'd kicks and easily dismantle the enemy leg, or insta-kill the enemy mech by a 1/6 chance of TSM'd punches. The current melee weapons are too weak to be functional(or basic punch and kick are too effective). Only if they costs no tons nor slots, they may have a place I think.

Anyway, that's not the topic. By the way, does Archangels have a hand? Are they actually make a punch attack?

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #47 on: 04 March 2020, 02:28:33 »
Yes, the invictus has a hand. Even if it didn't, you can still punch with a malus. Using the blade in blade mode, *Not affected by an absent or damaged hand actuator

The retractable is six tons on the archangel. It either gives you good to-hit on a single attack with meh damage; or passable odds to crit on meh to-hits & damage, plus a chance of breaking. It's versatile but hardly a wonder-weapon. I'll go so far as to say archangel, deva and grigori invictus had better things they could have spent those tons on.

Even a TSM kick on a weight-peer is NOT going to get through undamaged max armor. Hitting with a TSM hatchet on the side torso or arm of said peer will strip and go internal every time, and those locations are far more likely to have taken previous damage. TSM + hatchet is paying tonnage to roll on a table that will give a chance for a one-hit crippling, as opposed to having to batter through the second strongest armour (on a well laid out mech) with kicks.

If I had to put my commander in a celestial the Archangel invictus is among the better choices. I'd rather in something more mobile and (If playing BV) cheaper, but YMMV

Col Toda

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2963
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #48 on: 04 March 2020, 06:45:19 »
Say you have this monster with 5 other MD units . The opposition can have 1 C3 company + of mixed  heavy and Assaults with the 3 Naganatas Assaults  exchanging the 3 Artemis IV for Command Consoles  . 1 to use 2 redundant  . So potentially  3 Command mechs should one die then next one takes over . The BV for Command  Console  is only applied  once because  it is present as far as I know it is a flat BV increase because it is present  redundant ones do not increase it as you can only benefit  from one at a time . Put in to see if this take is correct  but no answer  so far . Still think in a balanced BV situation  the MD unit is defeated in weight of numbers  or a balance of quality and  numbers .

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40840
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #49 on: 04 March 2020, 09:10:29 »
"Celestials are bad because the other guy brought customs."

All you've really said is that the Celestials are canon mechs.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

Tangoforone

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 300
Re: Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?
« Reply #50 on: 05 March 2020, 10:33:29 »
Another thing to take for note: when I played this the capabilities of the Guardian ECM alongside the implants were not excessively used.  The purpose seems to be to shut down ECMs that are trying to shut this guy off from the C3i network; I suppose the reasoning to enable this would be to allow for the rest of the Level II to be able to return fire with the low range mods granted by the Archangels C3i. 

What might be worthwhile though is a secondary purpose of defending WoB LRM carriers that mount the C3i.  Now you have two C3i networks within the counter ECM bubble.  Add a big tank or something that can dish out a bit more damage to defend the LRM carriers (not that the Archangel can't, but it only has a 25 damage output so not the scariest of 100 ton mechs), and now you have a fire support group that can't be cutoff from the network.