BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: SteveRestless on 08 August 2021, 14:06:27
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Since the old thread is almost to page 50, starting a new thread for the Wolves.
In addition to their new (currently small, but will grow) Allies in Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Smoke Jaguar, and their own surviving warriors, there is another force at hand as well. We see in units like the Stonehearts, that many republic warriors have left to pursue mercenary careers or sanctuary in the Federated Suns, but some remain. Some were taken captive during the fighting itsself. I suspect we will see those among the defeated RAF who are willing to cooperate, forming units within the new SLDF.
We also get a blurb from the Snow Ravens in HOTW, indicating that they will adhere to the results of the contest for ilClan. If the Horses attacked and were declared dezgra, that naval support could be hell on the horses.
Really, the matter is fairly simple. Proper Clan Warriors do not trial over and over again for the same objective after a loss. There is no official prohibition against doing so, it is honor that prevents that. If the Hell's Horses, or anyone else cannot honor the result of a fair combat trial, then perhaps they have lost their way and should be rehabilitated. Can they truly call themselves clan, if they cannot abide what fair combat has wrought?
Those who dislike the idea of ilClan Wolf are bound to grasp at straws and crow that the victory will not last. But what a massive waste of plot that would be. What a contradiction to what has been foreshadowed that would be. They can gnash and wail all they want, I am unconvinced that the plot does not lead to the establishment of a third league under Clan Wolf.
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If the Hell's Horses, or anyone else cannot honor the result of a fair combat trial, then perhaps they have lost their way and should be rehabilitated. Can they truly call themselves clan, if they cannot abide what fair combat has wrought?
Is it truly a fair Trial when the winner won not through force of arms alone, but by conscripting civilians to aid them above and beyond the limitations of their original bid?
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I'm more impressed your clan has the time to mint silver to be max petty than you took terra =p.
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They have all those left over mints from previous occupants, like WoB, Comstar, Old Star League, Amaris Empire (Evil we Trust), Terra Hegemony, Terra Alliance, Western Alliance, United States (other assorted nations.), and the Franklin Mint. There plenty of plates print cash from.
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Is it truly a fair Trial when the winner won not through force of arms alone, but by conscripting civilians to aid them above and beyond the limitations of their original bid?
Also Alric refusing a trail of refusal over the results on the grounds of "no i don't wonna <stamps feet like a toddler>" :D
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We also get a blurb from the Snow Ravens in HOTW, indicating that they will adhere to the results of the contest for ilClan. If the Horses attacked and were declared dezgra, that naval support could be hell on the horses.
The Ravens accept the outcome of the Trial; however, support is contingent on whether it is in the interests of the Alliance.
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The Sea Foxes support anyone with the cash!
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Oh great are going back to the Taint theory? Every Clan that does not adhere to Clan laws is a tainted clan? I know we don't get a new Reaving War in the Is but imho any Clan could actually trial for Terra again if they think that the current Ilclan is considered weak or acting against the Clan way. And Alaric will have to do that since he must have absorbed a lot of RAF forces. Then again his Wolf Empire isn't exactly Clan anymore right? How long until Freeborn Terrans occupy important positions within the Wolf Clan? Because that will happen sonner rather then later given the fact how outnumbered the "pure" Clanners actually are.
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Can someone shoot me a list of the books to read for the ilClan saga that comes before Hour of the Wolf? I think I am going to be doing this like I did Twilight of the Clans and starting at the end and working my way backwards lol. Makes it interesting but I just hoovered the ilClan Sourcebook this weekend and would really like to see more and hopefully find out what class of ships the Fire of the Republic and Shield of the Republic are along with others.
I'm hoping for a list or stats. Something to describe them. I doubt we will see it but here's hoping.
[EDIT]Oh and *waves Crayola drawn wolf flag* go Wolfies. *apathetic cheer* Yea.[/EDIT]
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The Ravens accept the outcome of the Trial; however, support is contingent on whether it is in the interests of the Alliance.
Instead of asking, "What is in it for us?," the Ravens may now feel obligated to ask, "What is in it for us, ilKhan?"
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Can someone shoot me a list of the books to read for the ilClan saga that comes before Hour of the Wolf? I think I am going to be doing this like I did Twilight of the Clans and starting at the end and working my way backwards lol. Makes it interesting but I just hoovered the ilClan Sourcebook this weekend and would really like to see more and hopefully find out what class of ships the Fire of the Republic and Shield of the Republic are along with others.
I'm hoping for a list or stats. Something to describe them. I doubt we will see it but here's hoping.
[EDIT]Oh and *waves Crayola drawn wolf flag* go Wolfies. *apathetic cheer* Yea.[/EDIT]
There no information (even in the sourcebook) on the Warships aside from what class (new) is the specialty Dropships Clan Wolf made. Piledriver (Ram Ship) and Jian Raid-Deployment Troop Special Ops DropShip
Book wise these too novellas are primary ones, that ultimately link to the main one, specialty Children which directly leads into it..
- Icons of War
- Rock of the Republic
- Divided We Fall
- Honor's Gauntlet
- Grey Watch Protocol - Book 1
- Paid in Blood - Book 2
- Children of Kerensky
EDIT: Fixed
[/list]
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There no information (even in the sourcebook) on the Warships aside from what class (new) is the specialty Dropships Clan Wolf made. Piledriver (Ram Ship) and Jian Raid-Deployment Troop Special Ops DropShip
Book wise these too novellas are primary ones, that ultimately link to the main one, specialty Children which directly leads into it..
- Rock of the Republic
- Divided We Fall
- Honor's Gauntlet
- Grey Watch Protocol - Book 1
- Paid in Blood - Book 2
- Children of Kerensky
Thanks 👍
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- Rock of the Republic
- Divided We Fall
- Honor's Gauntlet
- Grey Watch Protocol - Book 1
- Paid in Blood - Book 2
- Children of Kerensky
Also Icons of War, if you’re wondering how one battleship in particular ended up there.
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Also Icons of War, if you’re wondering how one battleship in particular ended up there.
oops
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Icons of War is the most entertaining of the bunch, definitely do not forget that.
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Icons of War is the most entertaining of the bunch, definitely do not forget that.
One might even say the ONLY entertaining one of the bunch.
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I might also suggest taking a look at A Bonfire of Worlds, if you haven't picked that one up already.
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We also get a blurb from the Snow Ravens in HOTW, indicating that they will adhere to the results of the contest for ilClan. If the Horses attacked and were declared dezgra, that naval support could be hell on the horses.
Two things wrong with that statement one the Ravens may respect the iKhan but they may not follow him or ask “what is in it for me?” And two personally I don’t want another two sided fight (ie Clan vs Inner Sphere or Word of Blake Jihad). I find Battletech works best as a free for all. The Wolves may try to create the Third Star League but do not kid yourself it will be hard fought and more compromises than Aleksander Kerensky faced if he stayed after the Amaris coup.
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Is it truly a fair Trial when the winner won not through force of arms alone, but by conscripting civilians to aid them above and beyond the limitations of their original bid?
Is it truly a fair trial when it involved Clan Jade Wolf, The Exiled Clan Wolf and Inner Sphere mercenaries? ;D
It's a farce. But, I think the Wolves will get away with it.
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The argument will be possession is nine-tenths of the law. Pretty typical Clanner stuff, really.
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I might also suggest taking a look at A Bonfire of Worlds, if you haven't picked that one up already.
That's like the only one I've read lol.
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Since the old thread is almost to page 50, starting a new thread for the Wolves.
In addition to their new (currently small, but will grow) Allies in Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Smoke Jaguar, and their own surviving warriors, there is another force at hand as well. We see in units like the Stonehearts, that many republic warriors have left to pursue mercenary careers or sanctuary in the Federated Suns, but some remain. Some were taken captive during the fighting itsself. I suspect we will see those among the defeated RAF who are willing to cooperate, forming units within the new SLDF.
We also get a blurb from the Snow Ravens in HOTW, indicating that they will adhere to the results of the contest for ilClan. If the Horses attacked and were declared dezgra, that naval support could be hell on the horses.
Really, the matter is fairly simple. Proper Clan Warriors do not trial over and over again for the same objective after a loss. There is no official prohibition against doing so, it is honor that prevents that. If the Hell's Horses, or anyone else cannot honor the result of a fair combat trial, then perhaps they have lost their way and should be rehabilitated. Can they truly call themselves clan, if they cannot abide what fair combat has wrought?
Those who dislike the idea of ilClan Wolf are bound to grasp at straws and crow that the victory will not last. But what a massive waste of plot that would be. What a contradiction to what has been foreshadowed that would be. They can gnash and wail all they want, I am unconvinced that the plot does not lead to the establishment of a third league under Clan Wolf.
The Hell's Horses would have the right of call for the a Trial of Refusal (and bound by it if they lose). Trialing for the same objective does happen. It happened to the Ravens in the Wars of Reavings where Clans would "totally not coordinate" to wear the Ravens down in a few trials so another could come in immediate and Trial for the same thing. In this case, it actually wouldn't be coordinated. And the Ravens would be no help since it would not look good for the Wolves admitting they need another Clan to help them hold Terra.
That said, I don't think the Hell's Horses will be able to overcome the Wolves. Simply put, the Jade Falcon vacuum is going to keep them busy. The Lyans and Bears will move in and they will either have to abandon all gains (and either move their full Clan like the Falcons or allow their supply lines to be cut off) or try to fight off both the Lyrans and Bears. I don't think this will leave with a force to just smash the Wolves. I don't see the Wolves losing anytime soon since losing Terra now would set them up for Annihilation or Absorption.
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Jian are called cutters and actually are small craft.
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The argument will be possession is nine-tenths of the law. Pretty typical Clanner stuff, really.
Yeah, but generally they run that play with mutually assured destruction. Other than the Fortress wall still running they could just be knocked out right now.
It'll slip by though.
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Jian are called cutters and actually are small craft.
Would you have a source/quote? I don't doubt you, I would just like to include the info in a little side project I'm slowly working on (a list of all the unstatted designs like the "Literally Never-seen" thread, but with sources and additional annotations).
Thanks in advance!
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Jian are called cutters and actually are small craft.
Literal text from IlClan
Wolves sent Jian-class assault DropShips, fast vessels dubbed “cutters,”
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Literal text from IlClan
Thank you. So they are DS, not SC.
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Thank you. So they are DS, not SC.
They are probably SC. But called DS.
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HotW said small craft IIRC, so guess it is time to check. Otherwise we are talking something like Vampyres I guess.
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Will have to wait for my copy to arrive in Europe :drool: / :'(
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HotW said small craft IIRC, so guess it is time to check. Otherwise we are talking something like Vampyres I guess.
The only mention I see of Jian in HotW just says "Ready the Jian-class cutters for their run." Nothing about dropship versus small craft. The words "small craft" don't appear at all.
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Those who dislike the idea of ilClan Wolf are bound to grasp at straws and crow that the victory will not last. But what a massive waste of plot that would be. What a contradiction to what has been foreshadowed that would be. They can gnash and wail all they want, I am unconvinced that the plot does not lead to the establishment of a third league under Clan Wolf.
It's not a waste of plot, it's consistency, every faction that has ever held Terra has fallen, Terra is a Faction killer in BattleTech it always has been, that's it's point, the tragedy of any faction that holds it, and it's always been at the hands of an "ally", Terran Alliance to Terran Hegemony, Terran Hegemony to Amaris Empire, then SLDF to Comstar (at least as an idea), Comstar to Wob, Wob to Republic (since Stone either was/thinks he was/likes messing with Alric a WoB plant) and then Republic to Wolves, that's also what's been foreshadowed, Wolves will die and the third league as well in time, it could be considered clasping at straws to think that they will survive, no one can be king of the hill for ever, they slip up and fall, maybe with a little help from those looking up at the hill and wondering how nice it must be up there and how much they'd like to be the one at the top, it's nature, will the third starleague turn around and absorb the wolves and ilKarn? will it be someone else, and who will kill off the third league? homeworld clans? WoBbies part II, pantsless boogaloo?.
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The only mention I see of Jian in HotW just says "Ready the Jian-class cutters for their run." Nothing about dropship versus small craft. The words "small craft" don't appear at all.
P38. Look for "cutters".
"The cutters were stripped down light DropShips that used magnetic grapples to attach to the hull of the target vessel."
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P38. Look for "cutters".
"The cutters were stripped down light DropShips that used magnetic grapples to attach to the hull of the target vessel."
So HotW not only doesn't call them small craft, but calls them DropShips as well. Seems everything is in agreement then?
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The Sourcebook spells the "cutters" are actually Troop Carrying Commando Dropships.
It would been cool if were a brand new type of ship, but it guess it's not to happen. Additionally, the Piledrivers are essentially over armored, over engines, unarmed, ram dropships. Which aren't terribly exciting to me.
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If they were dropships, then it doesn't make sense to dedicate one whole jumpship collar for something that small and expendable.
Makes more sense for them to be small craft.
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The Sourcebook spells the "cutters" are actually Troop Carrying Commando Dropships.
It would been cool if were a brand new type of ship, but it guess it's not to happen. Additionally, the Piledrivers are essentially over armored, over engines, unarmed, ram dropships. Which aren't terribly exciting to me.
Every mech can be described as essentially a Mackie.
An ion sparrow is essentially a Mackie but smaller.
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If they were dropships, then it doesn't make sense to dedicate one whole jumpship collar for something that small and expendable.
Makes more sense for them to be small craft.
Small craft might not be able to do the job. The smaller the ship, the fewer troops it can carry.
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If they were dropships, then it doesn't make sense to dedicate one whole jumpship collar for something that small and expendable.
Makes more sense for them to be small craft.
One of many reasons the naval players have been so grumpy about the whole thing.
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I'm back from reddit, nice to see that we finally made it to Terra.
I'm also delighted to find out that they named a mech after me. :P
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As a Wolf warrior, your ride has been trashed fighting the Republic and then in the opening hours of the ilClan Trial against the Falcons.
So your shiny Omni has given up the ghost and now you are pulling from the salvage or back ups the merchants & techs packed along for just this reason. What RAF salvage, RecGuide non-Omni offering, or Dark Age Wolf secondline machine (Blood Reaper, Tundra Wolf, etc) would you prefer to pull from storage?
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I'm also delighted to find out that they named a mech after me. :P
Careful, things haven't gone well for the in-universe person who claimed it was named after them.
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What RAF salvage, RecGuide non-Omni offering, or Dark Age Wolf secondline machine (Blood Reaper, Tundra Wolf, etc) would you prefer to pull from storage?
Scanning the MUL, I see the Marauder IIC 6 is the only MAD IIC that the Wolves have in stock. It would be fun to surprise the Falcons with their own design.
If I can't get an assault 'Mech, I would also accept a Griffin C.
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Since I would clearly have been an Exile returning to the fold I would ask the techs to double check that Sojourner over there. It can probably be put back together, since that is kind of its point.
But since you asked for non-Omni I would probably be drawn to a munchtastic Hellstar, with a secondary choice of the Republic built Archer 7C from the rec-guide.
Secondary points if someone turns it into a cameo of sorts and puts a Kell Bloodnamed Exile warrior in a clantech Archer.
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As a Wolf warrior, your ride has been trashed fighting the Republic and then in the opening hours of the ilClan Trial against the Falcons.
So your shiny Omni has given up the ghost and now you are pulling from the salvage or back ups the merchants & techs packed along for just this reason. What RAF salvage, RecGuide non-Omni offering, or Dark Age Wolf secondline machine (Blood Reaper, Tundra Wolf, etc) would you prefer to pull from storage?
A Blood Reaper would do fine.
Careful, things haven't gone well for the in-universe person who claimed it was named after them.
Nah man, the devs totally had me in mind and not that Stackpole fellow.
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As a Wolf warrior, your ride has been trashed fighting the Republic and then in the opening hours of the ilClan Trial against the Falcons.
So your shiny Omni has given up the ghost and now you are pulling from the salvage or back ups the merchants & techs packed along for just this reason. What RAF salvage, RecGuide non-Omni offering, or Dark Age Wolf secondline machine (Blood Reaper, Tundra Wolf, etc) would you prefer to pull from storage?
Given I would have been a former FWL freeborn (and there is no Shadow Hawk option) i'll take a Phoenix Hawk C 2
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As a Wolf warrior, your ride has been trashed fighting the Republic and then in the opening hours of the ilClan Trial against the Falcons.
So your shiny Omni has given up the ghost and now you are pulling from the salvage or back ups the merchants & techs packed along for just this reason. What RAF salvage, RecGuide non-Omni offering, or Dark Age Wolf secondline machine (Blood Reaper, Tundra Wolf, etc) would you prefer to pull from storage?
I would say either Mad Cat II (what can i say, I really like Timber Wolf) or Warhammer IIC (gotta love revamps of classics).
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As a Wolf warrior, your ride has been trashed fighting the Republic and then in the opening hours of the ilClan Trial against the Falcons.
So your shiny Omni has given up the ghost and now you are pulling from the salvage or back ups the merchants & techs packed along for just this reason. What RAF salvage, RecGuide non-Omni offering, or Dark Age Wolf secondline machine (Blood Reaper, Tundra Wolf, etc) would you prefer to pull from storage?
The Dominator is pretty well designed for what I would want, but I will assume those newer designs are out of stock. In that case I would pull a Lobo 3. It has a fair amount of speed, a headcapper to potentially end any fight, and plenty of short-ranged weapons to handle most any opponent.
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I'm gonna go with the Blood Reaper. Warhammer iIC with jump jets.
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Hellstar. Accept no substitute.
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Hellstar. Accept no substitute.
That's a good call. I wonder how many they'd have since it was a Horses/Exiles product. I'd like to think it would be a prized ride among the Exiles, despite being a 2nd liner
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I would imagine their highly prized given the limited Mech production capacities they had prior to capturing Wolves old OZ-1 and W-8 manufacturing facilities on Tamar.
Given it's Tamar, they may not be owning it for long.
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Just noticed one of Herb's old answers about the Warden Wolves got canonized, which will also open a interesting point of contention between the Wolves and reborn Jaguars.
Look at the notable Kingfisher pilot- Eric Weaver. Born a Warden Wolf, he traces his ancestry back to a bloodnamed warrior who piloted the same Kingfisher when Phelan won the 6th Dragoons as isorla which became the 6th Wolf Dragoons after Operation Bulldog. Which means at some point the Warden Wolves established, at least, that Bloodname in their Clan and it has managed to establish itself. Eric was a survivor of Arc Royal who decided to accept Alaric's call to return (with his Kingfisher) rather than remain with the Wardens- he won his place as a warrior again and assigned to the 5th Battle Cluster. Prior to the invasion of Terra, he won (with his Kingfisher) a Trial of Propagation for the Bloodname (among the Crusader Wolves? Do they have Weavers? did another Weaver join the Crusaders?) defeating 4 opponents (in a row? sounds like separate battles). The first 3 were not remarkable, but the final battle took on a Warwolf that was defeated after it's engine was destroyed.
If he survived Terra, there is IMO a good chance he advanced in the ranks during that battle.
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As a Wolf warrior, your ride has been trashed fighting the Republic and then in the opening hours of the ilClan Trial against the Falcons.
So your shiny Omni has given up the ghost and now you are pulling from the salvage or back ups the merchants & techs packed along for just this reason. What RAF salvage, RecGuide non-Omni offering, or Dark Age Wolf secondline machine (Blood Reaper, Tundra Wolf, etc) would you prefer to pull from storage?
I would pick the Blood Reaper for sure. I do wonder if many Clan Warriors picked up the Dolaire.
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The Blood Reaper is a borderline front/second line machine. It may not have a fancy Wolf name, but its a Wolf machine for sure. It kicks butt!
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I would pick the Blood Reaper for sure. I do wonder if many Clan Warriors picked up the Dolaire.
The Doloire is a Omni, and any Omni is preferred over a non-Omni . . . besides, you can mount the Blood Reaper's load on the Doloire and be more accurate with more armor and weapons- just not as fast.
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If I had to take a Republic mech I would want a Doloire but the moment a Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf becomes available I'm moving back over.
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Do we have any information on the former Wolf in Exile Clusters that make up Omega Galaxy?
I can see from IlClan that the 2nd Wolf Legion is one of the five but can't see any information on the others.
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Basically look at the RecGuides to see the Warden Wolf entries- like the Sojourner or Ice Ferret.
Shattered Fortress tells you what Wolf clusters existed at the time they disappeared, it would be those 5 making up that galaxy.
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I'm gonna go with the Blood Reaper. Warhammer iIC with jump jets.
I like it >:D
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Basically look at the RecGuides to see the Warden Wolf entries- like the Sojourner or Ice Ferret.
Shattered Fortress tells you what Wolf clusters existed at the time they disappeared, it would be those 5 making up that galaxy.
Yeah I was going to say "everything they had left after fleeing Arc Royal, whatever that is".
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FM 3145 has them with 9 clusters.
Alpha
Golden Keshik (mentioned in Ilclan)
1st Wolf Legion (destroyed on Arc-Royal)
1st Wolf Strike Grenadiers (on Upano after Arc-Royal)
Beta
Wolf Spider Keshik (on Incukalns after Arc-Royal, mentioned in ilClan)
13th Wolf Guards
2nd Wolf Legion (mentioned in ilClan)
Omega
Bronze Keshik (on Pobeda after Arc-Royal, heavily damaged)
1st Wolf Guards
3rd Wolf Guards
IlClan has Omega Provisional Galaxy as 5 clusters. 6 survived Arc-Royal and neighboring battles to disappear. But only 5 went to Terra.
We've only got record of one being destroyed/left behind on Arc-Royal (1st Wolf Legion).
IlClan mentions three clusters by name. Golden Keshik, Wolf Spider Keshik, and 2nd Wolf Legion.
The leaves two clusters unnamed, and five clusters we don't know the fate of (1st Wolf Strike Grenadiers, 13th Wolf Guards, Bronze Keshik, 1st Wolf Guards, 3rd Wolf Guards).
Made Up Past This Point
The Bronze Keshik was pretty beat up, I think it's the best candidate to have folded, to rebuild the other Keshiks.
The 1st Wolf Strike Grenadiers have too cool of a name to lose.
That leaves a Wolf Guards/Guardians to be a fifth. The 13th Wolf guards were already down to 40% strength in FM3145. But personally I'd find it hard to disband Natasha's legacy. so I'd fold the guardians into them and reinforcing other clusters where needed.
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FM 3145 has them with 9 clusters.
Alpha
Golden Keshik (mentioned in Ilclan)
1st Wolf Legion (destroyed on Arc-Royal)
1st Wolf Strike Grenadiers (on Upano after Arc-Royal)
Beta
Wolf Spider Keshik (on Incukalns after Arc-Royal, mentioned in ilClan)
13th Wolf Guards
2nd Wolf Legion (mentioned in ilClan)
Omega
Bronze Keshik (on Pobeda after Arc-Royal, heavily damaged)
1st Wolf Guards
3rd Wolf Guards
IlClan has Omega Provisional Galaxy as 5 clusters. 6 survived Arc-Royal and neighboring battles to disappear. But only 5 went to Terra.
We've only got record of one being destroyed/left behind on Arc-Royal (1st Wolf Legion).
IlClan mentions three clusters by name. Golden Keshik, Wolf Spider Keshik, and 2nd Wolf Legion.
The leaves two clusters unnamed, and five clusters we don't know the fate of (1st Wolf Strike Grenadiers, 13th Wolf Guards, Bronze Keshik, 1st Wolf Guards, 3rd Wolf Guards).
Made Up Past This Point
The Bronze Keshik was pretty beat up, I think it's the best candidate to have folded, to rebuild the other Keshiks.
The 1st Wolf Strike Grenadiers have too cool of a name to lose.
That leaves a Wolf Guards/Guardians to be a fifth. The 13th Wolf guards were already down to 40% strength in FM3145. But personally I'd find it hard to disband Natasha's legacy. so I'd fold the guardians into them and reinforcing other clusters where needed.
Some might have left with the Kell Hounds that might show the discrepancy. The other question is will they stay or will they go and retake Arc-Royal and the neighbouring systems now that the Jade Falcons are defeated.
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Keshiks are not clusters, though they will add to a cluster to take direct command. They typically had two trinaries the few times we see them written out. The only details we ever got on them were FMWC (Golden & Bronze) and FMU (Wolf Spider). The Bronze Keshik was the only abnormal one IIRC, it had artillery stars which fit with it commanding a defensive galaxy/clusters. Among the Invasion Wolves, the Keshiks do get expanded and trimmed depending on circumstances, so the Bronze Keshik could have been trimmed back to a single full trinary or even a binary and remains of the other stars sent off to fill in losses elsewhere.
Omega's clusters are the Guardians, the 4th & 13th are the only Guards the Wardens had after the split . . . and the wipe out of the 4th is sad, but a OOC nod to the reunification after Stackpole's derp.
The Wardens did lose warriors to the Crusaders after Arc Royal fell and Alaric put out his call again, and while Trial of Position failures joined the Kell Hounds or other groups we do not get any stories about a warrior leaving like that outside of the abathka/freebirths taken in the Invasion who left in '58.
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Keshiks are not clusters, though they will add to a cluster to take direct command.
FM3085 and FM3145 both count the Keshiks as clusters (13 clusters in 3085, 9 clusters in 3145, both numbers require counting the Keshiks as clusters for those totals to work).
It would not make much sense for Shattered Fortress to then say only 6 clusters survived Arc-Royal, if they only had 6 clusters (ie. not counting the Keshiks) prior to Arc-Royal.
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What they have during IlClan as part of a provisional Galaxy that headed off to Terra in a hurry, may not be what they end up with when/if they move from a provisional Galaxy to a front-line Galaxy.
There is no reason to have two Keshiks, and the Wolf Empire already has a Golden Keshik if I recall. So could see that change at the least. Be nice if they kept Wolf Spider Keshik as a callback. If you keep Wolf spider Keshik might be worth merging the 13th Wolf guard and traditions so you can consolidate that legacy into one unit.
I agree on the name for 1st Wolf Strike Grenadiers, as well as being a bit biased on wanting them to continue.
Wolf Guardians are pretty close in name to some existing WE clusters, so they may get renamed to avoid confusion. If they are trying to push for front-line status might also help by jettisoning the 2nd line cluster names.
So when the dust settles on Omega Galaxy I could see
Wolf Spider Keshik
1st Wolf Strike Grenadiers
2nd Wolf Legion
Then 2 new clusters a 1st and 2nd “something”
May also depend heavily on who gets a say in the reorg, and if they have any agendas. They may get broken up to spread out any warriors that may have questionable loyalties. I would prefer they stay together as Omega Galaxy, but they might not.
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Do we know how many former Exiles survived Terra?
I was counting/naming those that arrived on Terra. I don't know how many were left after. But yeah, a reorganization after Terra could (likely will?) change a lot.
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Not the first time fact-checking was off, the definition is from a binary to a whole cluster and Wolf Keshiks are not typically whole clusters since the formation was introduced. Did a quick scan, and as far as I can tell, they applied it across the board and we did not get a strength estimate for any of the Clans using keshiks. FMU had Khan Kell forcing saKhan Marco Hall to relinquish command of the 13th Wolf Guards to form a keshik for Beta Galaxy. Phelan Kell also cut back the extra trinary or two attached to his keshik for the Refusal War after the Wardens settled on Arc Royal
Heck, the whole FM3085 and FM3145 order of battle charts for the Clans are off w/o a strength in stars, or at least binary/trinary, for each cluster because none of the Inner Sphere Clans build the clusters exactly alike, even in the same Clan. The only Clan that followed the exact same structure across the board no longer exists. Some Clans will field three binary clusters and six trinary clusters in the same touman.
As far as post ilClan . . . the only cluster remaining that was pre-Refusal War was the 13th Wolf Guards since sometime between 3085 and 3145, figure the Bonfire of Worlds chaos, the storied 4th Wolf Guards got lost somewhere. The rest of the units were post-Refusal amalgamations, which made no sense at the time, while when Stackpole wrote the 1st MWDA Wolf novel he rolled out all the classic Invasion clusters which had TPTB inventing why those formations which had been absent for the past 70+ years suddenly appeared.
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If I recall correctly from some numbers Greekfire pulled. Omega Provisional was listed at 60% strength. After the IlClan trial I believe.
So they may in fact be one of the most intact Galaxies the Wolves have on Terra.
They were listed as using a lot more vehicles and conventional infantry in FM3145 too I believe. Would expect a large part of losses to have come from those. Also depending on how their Aerospace assets arrived and how cheeky those involved want to get into “forces on Terra”. Some of their aerospace may have been left out to dry in orbit or stuck in grounded dropships. So they may have a lot of representation in Aerospace forces.
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Casualty and strength numbers as provided are almost meaningless . . .
Is it what they can field at that specific moment in time?
How many wounded do they expect to return after healing- IE, 6 months, 1 year . . . the last is important b/c that is when the wall comes down
Do they have more fully operational equipment than warriors?
More warriors than operational equipment?- we saw huge depots of gear being refurbished
Did it count abathka from the Republic or not?
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Not the first time fact-checking was off, the definition is from a binary to a whole cluster and Wolf Keshiks are not typically whole clusters since the formation was introduced. Did a quick scan, and as far as I can tell, they applied it across the board and we did not get a strength estimate for any of the Clans using keshiks. FMU had Khan Kell forcing saKhan Marco Hall to relinquish command of the 13th Wolf Guards to form a keshik for Beta Galaxy. Phelan Kell also cut back the extra trinary or two attached to his keshik for the Refusal War after the Wardens settled on Arc Royal
Heck, the whole FM3085 and FM3145 order of battle charts for the Clans are off w/o a strength in stars, or at least binary/trinary, for each cluster because none of the Inner Sphere Clans build the clusters exactly alike, even in the same Clan. The only Clan that followed the exact same structure across the board no longer exists. Some Clans will field three binary clusters and six trinary clusters in the same touman.
As far as post ilClan . . . the only cluster remaining that was pre-Refusal War was the 13th Wolf Guards since sometime between 3085 and 3145, figure the Bonfire of Worlds chaos, the storied 4th Wolf Guards got lost somewhere. The rest of the units were post-Refusal amalgamations, which made no sense at the time, while when Stackpole wrote the 1st MWDA Wolf novel he rolled out all the classic Invasion clusters which had TPTB inventing why those formations which had been absent for the past 70+ years suddenly appeared.
personally it never made much sense the wolves wouldn't reactivate classic units.
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It never made sense that Phelan would deactivate all the proud legacies of the Clusters that went with him except the 4th & 13th Wolf Guards . . . eh, maybe the 16th or whatever that was in Beta that was not a Legion/Strike Grenadiers. He had most of the surviving remains of 279th, 328th, 341st, and 352nd all follow to Arc Royal, which were the SLDF legacy units. You want the claim to legitimacy then those are you units you maintain for political purposes. Vlad, to distance himself from the genocide may not have used the ones the Wardens took . . . but when you get around to it, few of the Invasion clusters that stayed with him- Delta & Tau Galaxy- kept their names either. But it is also a artifact of half the Invasion Wolf touman falling into a black hole.
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Will the Bears be used as "Shock Troops" or "Rapid Reaction Force" for the new 3rd SLDF ? A Galaxy or two? Especially in its baby stages, until the other Clan Forces can rebuild
How committed are the Bears ? I mean, if (and when) it comes down to actual combat boots on the ground action ?
Also, it can give them more political leverage / reasons to kick the Horses
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Will the Bears be used as "Shock Troops" or "Rapid Reaction Force" for the new 3rd SLDF ? A Galaxy or two? Especially in its baby stages, until the other Clan Forces can rebuild
How committed are the Bears ? I mean, if (and when) it comes down to actual combat boots on the ground action ?
Also, it can give them more political leverage / reasons to kick the Horses
The next sourcebook will tell us more or whom supports the iClan and who opposes it. With how integrated the Ghost Bear Dominion Clans and IS are I can see them giving Alaric lip service but there may be division in the ranks on if they follow the new Star League or not.
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The next sourcebook will tell us more or whom supports the iClan and who opposes it. With how integrated the Ghost Bear Dominion Clans and IS are I can see them giving Alaric lip service but there may be division in the ranks on if they follow the new Star League or not.
I dont think it will cover enough time to see all that, just the early leanings.
Clan wolf will still have the fortress up, hard to make demands with no real way to contact anybody and you have a virtually impenetrable wall.
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I dont think it will cover enough time to see all that, just the early leanings.
Clan wolf will still have the fortress up, hard to make demands with no real way to contact anybody and you have a virtually impenetrable wall.
If I remember, didn't it say at the end of HoTW, they could only sustain the Wall for another year ?
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Will the Bears be used as "Shock Troops" or "Rapid Reaction Force" for the new 3rd SLDF ? A Galaxy or two? Especially in its baby stages, until the other Clan Forces can rebuild
How committed are the Bears ? I mean, if (and when) it comes down to actual combat boots on the ground action ?
Also, it can give them more political leverage / reasons to kick the Horses
Well if they are being "used" I am not sure how "committed" they will be.
The Bears have no reason to kick the Horses. It is the Wolves that have the beef with the Horses.
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I dont think it will cover enough time to see all that, just the early leanings.
Clan wolf will still have the fortress up, hard to make demands with no real way to contact anybody and you have a virtually impenetrable wall.
Terra has function HPG's. They can get word out though the Wall.
Will somebody or anybody listen to their call? That is the big question.
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Well if they are being "used" I am not sure how "committed" they will be.
The Bears have no reason to kick the Horses. It is the Wolves that have the beef with the Horses.
I meant more as their duty, or participation in the new League. Also at the end of Tamar Rising, wasn't there some talk about the Horses leadership being nervous on the Bear border ?
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Well if they are being "used" I am not sure how "committed" they will be.
The Bears have no reason to kick the Horses. It is the Wolves that have the beef with the Horses.
they're clanners, do they have a reason NOT to?
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yeah no one wants to wake up the sleeping Bear
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yeah no one wants to wake up the sleeping Bear
Well, IlKhan Ward might.
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The Bears will be used to fight a two fronted war to take the pressure off the SLDF v3. They'll send a couple of Galaxies both east & west - one into the side of the Horses to forestall any CHH advance to Terra and into the Combine to forestall any Kuritan attack on the old Republic worlds. This will also allow the FedSun forces to take a breather, retake New Avalon and push the Combine out of Davion space. A brokered cease fire between the Combine/FedSuns and Combine/Bears will allow both into the SL on favourable terms. The newly resurgent FedSun forces will be able to swing back to the Capellan border to put pressure there so that the CCAF will have to redeploy forces to shore up the FS/CC border therefore stalling any attack from Sian towards Terra.
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The Bears will be used to fight a two fronted war to take the pressure off the SLDF v3. They'll send a couple of Galaxies both east & west - one into the side of the Horses to forestall any CHH advance to Terra and into the Combine to forestall any Kuritan attack on the old Republic worlds. This will also allow the FedSun forces to take a breather, retake New Avalon and push the Combine out of Davion space. A brokered cease fire between the Combine/FedSuns and Combine/Bears will allow both into the SL on favourable terms. The newly resurgent FedSun forces will be able to swing back to the Capellan border to put pressure there so that the CCAF will have to redeploy forces to shore up the FS/CC border therefore stalling any attack from Sian towards Terra.
that sounds more like wishlisting then a realistic prediction
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Question will the people of the Rasalhague Dominion allow it? Look what happened when the Bears went out of control in Draconis Combine against the Nova Cats and Combine. (See Wars of the Republic Era)
There was a lot civilians people of power whom forced some changes in the Dominion. Entirely possible they may cause the bears from acting as swiftly.
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Question will the people of the Rasalhague Dominion allow it? Look what happened when the Bears went out of control in Draconis Combine against the Nova Cats and Combine. (See Wars of the Republic Era)
There was a lot civilians people of power whom forced some changes in the Dominion. Entirely possible they may cause the bears from acting as swiftly.
What upset the ethnic Rashalgians the most were the war crimes comitted by their own forces (best example would be the total destruction of the Combine mobile production fleet where the Bears even destroyed life boats) and they were not comfortable with being labeld as such. So if that happens again it might escalate. Plus the Bears just welcomed the Freeminders to their Dominion back so they might have more trouble at home to do some Wolf bidding.
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I wonder if ilClan Wolf will allow trials for enclaves on Terra or assign them, and what loyal clans might get enclaves in what places
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I think time on Terra is how Alaric can co-opt the average Trueborn Clanner against what a Clan's leadership wants.
Each Clan gets a embassy- not enclave- and is their temporary (long term) home at the Court of the Wolf League.
Each Clan embassy is guarded by members of that Clan under Star League Defense Force colors.
The selection for the embassy guard will be based on combat performance of Clanners while representing the SLDF.
Benefit- this covers . . . 6? (Bears, Ravens, Foxes, Cats, Jags, Falcons) and eventually 7 (Horses) with MAYBE a 8th (Scorpions) force . . . and if it was a 'Kerensky' cluster each (except Ravens) of 3 mech trinaries, infantry trinary, and vehicle trinary then it gets to be a pretty solid garrison along with Wolf sibkos, Black Falcon Watch, and say a rotated Wolf cluster or 2. Falcons are the odd ones, see how they shape up going forward. But it needs to be something like 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 warriors from a Clan are on Terra . . . so the SLDF has 5 or 6 clusters worth of troops from each Clan as their commitment. Leave out the Scorpions (special case if they join anyway), that gives the SLDF 35 or 42 clusters from the other Clans to grind on the Houses.
IF this is the ONLY way the average Clan warrior is going to see Holy Terra, you are going to get the same sort of pressures inside each Clan that resulted in the Harvest Trials.
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If said Clans allow these warriors to leave. For example the Ravens don't have a huge touman to begin with. They might lend the Wolves some of their Warships with the condition "Mainetanance is on you" but ground troops? And don't get me started on the Foxes who are split into their aimags and most likely need said warriors as guards. Sure seeing and living on Terra is a big lure for Clanners but most seem to be content with staying where they are. Of course for the younger generations it might work as they crave the glory for war but those would be green troops. In essence high quality "cannon fodder". And the Cats, Falcons and Jaguars? How many of those are even left? And would the Cats (I guess you are talking about the Spirit Cats) even leave their home? Their leader declared that the planet Marik would be their home that would save them from destruction. why jump into the next fire when you have what you want. Unless they get another vision they might simply stay where they are (not to mention the Spirit Cats don't seem to like the Wolves very much)
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Ravens are a special case, as I noted. For them, providing ASF, assault/PWS droppers, jumpships, and warships would mostly substitute for ground forces. The Foxes are not troop starved, we have never gotten the sense they are scrambling to get troops for anything- plus their secret stash. But none of this is really a stretch . . . the just Abjured Nova Cats sent a whole galaxy to participate in the Star League, so it is not a stretch at all. But that is not the starting point either.
Look at the stampede of warriors during the Harvest Trials to be a part of combat in the Inner Sphere, the social pressures already exist in the Clans- particularly among the average warrior, who make up the largest portion of any touman and cannot be ignored (which is why Ulric referred Vlad's nonsense).
The Falcons are going to be going into battle with Alaric, such is the life of the Black Falcon Watch. To keep the Black Falcon Watch clusters elite/selective, then they will have to create some farm clusters where stand outs can make their reputation for being selected. Real question is can they re-integrate the group on Sudeten and what happens with the Highlanders. Be hilarious if we ended up with a Clan Jade Falcon based on Northwind, and then the Falcon Remnant based on Sudeten who do not see themselves as being bound by the ilClan Trial's fall out.
Jaguars? They have to prove themselves- heck, they have to win themselves some support structure! Alaric is only going to prop them up so long, eventually they will have to set up some sort of territory and production for the Jaguars. Everything they have right now would IMO be devoted to the Wolf League, it is how they will be reborn.
Cats? You have a few Spirit Cat clusters and a Nova Cat cluster on Marik . . . but Kishio is out there somewhere waiting to return, in the ilClan era. He has some troops, but more importantly a collection of lower castes and IIRC some sibkos. The Cats will have to IMO officially re-unite, which is what has happened de facto, but the culture will need to become one again. Their partnership with the Foxes and both being included in the new FWL offers them a unique position and something Alaric could diplomatically leverage if he is so inclined when he turns in that direction. Nothing indicates the Cats have a dislike of the Wolves, what is noted is they are the only ones in the League the Wolves extend formal Clan trialing protocols to- the Cats have gotten the message they have the respect of the Wolves.
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I hope the Black Watch Falcons and Falcon Remnants never recombine especially considering the distance between the OZ and Terra. Not to mentions the chaos with all Lyran Commonwealth and sub factions between them travelling could be very hazardous. Considering the Falcon Remnants also had to farm for warriors especially among the Freeborn population they are more closely connected to the planets to their Trueborn counterparts.
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I have to say the symmetry of going into a era where we have a Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Jade Falcon (in Exile) would be delicious.
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I have to say the symmetry of going into a era where we have a Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Jade Falcon (in Exile) would be delicious.
Especially since all of the known Fallen Falcons have been working with (whisper) stravag dishonourable mercenaries who have no business dealing with (loudly) honourable Falcons who treat their lower castes greater than any other Clan.
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Nothing indicates the Cats have a dislike of the Wolves, what is noted is they are the only ones in the League the Wolves extend formal Clan trialing protocols to- the Cats have gotten the message they have the respect of the Wolves.
FM 3145 describes the Purifiers Cluster as having a "deep-seated hatred" for clan wolf. Granted, there's nothing to suggest that extends to the other clusters so it could go either way.
The same source also mentions that the Wolves see the Spirit Cats as a "pseudo-clan" which, to me, does not suggest a sense of respect.
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FM 3145 describes the Purifiers Cluster as having a "deep-seated hatred" for clan wolf. Granted, there's nothing to suggest that extends to the other clusters so it could go either way.
The same source also mentions that the Wolves see the Spirit Cats as a "pseudo-clan" which, to me, does not suggest a sense of respect.
That was the part I was basing my assumption. The Spirit Cats are an offshot from the original Nova Cats. I think even the Nova Cats view them as dangerous zealots. Of course that was 3145. We are a few years in the future now so who knows what has changed. From what I read from the Era report is that Kisho managed to assemble a small group of survivors that made theirt way to the Republic and possibly from there to the Spirit Cats holdings. The Spirirt Cats also took in a number of Republic refugee Nova Cats and formed provisional Clusters around them though there was still distrust among them. At this point the Nova Cats that are still alive are a minority within the Spirit Cats. Why would they join a hard pressed "Ilclan" when they have a safe haven unless the Free worlds goes "All right civil war again!" or worse "Let's clean our nation from all those Clan scum!"
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Kishio's last citing was running into Bears IIRC. They have not arrived at the Protectorate by the time of Shattered Fortress, the actual Nova Cat cluster in the Protectorate roster is from other refugees. All Cats in the Republic were Spirit Cats, by the time Rikkard launched his invasion of Marik all the reinforcements they were going to get had arrived- the rest of the Republic Spirit Cats had re-joined the Nova Cats.
Because for everything that happened, the Spirit Cats are still Clan and still have that culture- which the Wolf Empire acknowledged by dealing with them according to Clan practices unlike the rest of the League. The Cats are also, whether they like to admit it or not, dependent on the Foxes in their area. The Foxes acknowledge and are dealing with the ilKhan, they will sort of drag the Clan Protectorate along in their wake . . . BUT they might be the last ones Alaric looks to because how much both the Cats & Foxes have penentrated the League structure.
I expect we will see Kishio arrive in Protectorate space in Empire Alone . . . if not, then it is possible we will see him approach Terra w/o ever going to the Protectorate and we might end up with two Cat factions like the Falcons.
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I hope the Black Watch Falcons and Falcon Remnants never recombine especially considering the distance between the OZ and Terra. Not to mentions the chaos with all Lyran Commonwealth and sub factions between them travelling could be very hazardous. Considering the Falcon Remnants also had to farm for warriors especially among the Freeborn population they are more closely connected to the planets to their Trueborn counterparts.
In the end of "No Substitute for Victory", Star Colonel Baxter comes, and bears, and it has been confirmed here too, that he is an envoy from Jiyi, but also pitches Black Watch Falcon news too, and the fact that there are so few Falcons left now, I think recombination is just a matter of time, as they both need each other, and also re-establish a "reverse" corridor to good old Sudeten
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In the end of "No Substitute for Victory", Star Colonel Baxter comes, and bears, and it has been confirmed here too, that he is an envoy from Jiyi, but also pitches Black Watch Falcon news too, and the fact that there are so few Falcons left now, I think recombination is just a matter of time, as they both need each other, and also re-establish a "reverse" corridor to good old Sudeten
I think the separation between the Fallen Falcons and Black Watch are not as savage as the separation of the Wolves and Wolves-in-Exile, but it is deeper. I think there will be some techs and warriors who try to move to the OZ and Terra (at their own risk), but Malvinas madness created some deep rifts. Depending on how Alaric treats the Black Watch we may see the remnants rejoin their OZ comrades after a bitter and brutal campaign against his foes but unless the Lyrans are destroyed a corridor would be almost impossible.
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I thought the new Black Watch was supposed to be Called the Jade Guard?
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Kishio's last citing was running into Bears IIRC. They have not arrived at the Protectorate by the time of Shattered Fortress, the actual Nova Cat cluster in the Protectorate roster is from other refugees. All Cats in the Republic were Spirit Cats, by the time Rikkard launched his invasion of Marik all the reinforcements they were going to get had arrived- the rest of the Republic Spirit Cats had re-joined the Nova Cats.
Wait Kisho fled towards the Bears? Bad idea. The Era report 3145 stated that the Bears annihilated one Nova Cat Cluster that fled into the Dominion. I surely hope Kisho can avoid that fate.
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Wait Kisho fled towards the Bears? Bad idea. The Era report 3145 stated that the Bears annihilated one Nova Cat Cluster that fled into the Dominion. I surely hope Kisho can avoid that fate.
MIght have been mistaken, could have been the conjecture before he appeared in the ilClan era.
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FM 3145 describes the Purifiers Cluster as having a "deep-seated hatred" for clan wolf. Granted, there's nothing to suggest that extends to the other clusters so it could go either way.
The same source also mentions that the Wolves see the Spirit Cats as a "pseudo-clan" which, to me, does not suggest a sense of respect.
Perhaps, but it does bear keeping in mind that 3145 was written with a different development direction in mind. The main difference in the current direction is that Alaric has picked up a "Only the clans get to kill the clans" attitude (see the Fidelis being re-converted into Jaguars) that could well extend to the Cats too.
I think time on Terra is how Alaric can co-opt the average Trueborn Clanner against what a Clan's leadership wants.
Each Clan gets a embassy- not enclave- and is their temporary (long term) home at the Court of the Wolf League.
Each Clan embassy is guarded by members of that Clan under Star League Defense Force colors.
The selection for the embassy guard will be based on combat performance of Clanners while representing the SLDF.
Benefit- this covers . . . 6? (Bears, Ravens, Foxes, Cats, Jags, Falcons) and eventually 7 (Horses) with MAYBE a 8th (Scorpions) force . . . and if it was a 'Kerensky' cluster each (except Ravens) of 3 mech trinaries, infantry trinary, and vehicle trinary then it gets to be a pretty solid garrison along with Wolf sibkos, Black Falcon Watch, and say a rotated Wolf cluster or 2. Falcons are the odd ones, see how they shape up going forward. But it needs to be something like 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 warriors from a Clan are on Terra . . . so the SLDF has 5 or 6 clusters worth of troops from each Clan as their commitment. Leave out the Scorpions (special case if they join anyway), that gives the SLDF 35 or 42 clusters from the other Clans to grind on the Houses.
IF this is the ONLY way the average Clan warrior is going to see Holy Terra, you are going to get the same sort of pressures inside each Clan that resulted in the Harvest Trials.
I like what you propose. I'm not sure it is what the writers intend/the direction they will go, but I like the concept.
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I think the separation between the Fallen Falcons and Black Watch are not as savage as the separation of the Wolves and Wolves-in-Exile, but it is deeper. I think there will be some techs and warriors who try to move to the OZ and Terra (at their own risk), but Malvinas madness created some deep rifts. Depending on how Alaric treats the Black Watch we may see the remnants rejoin their OZ comrades after a bitter and brutal campaign against his foes but unless the Lyrans are destroyed a corridor would be almost impossible.
Or there could be a few Harvest like Trials with the Bears, to make a single planet line from Terra to Sudeten and Jiyi's Territory, along the relevant Bear border side of things
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I think a biig part of that front is gonna be priorities, I suspect the wolves and terran based falcons are going to focus first on the ALM over the fallen falcons. the fallen falcons are just a break away and can easy be folded back in easily with some face saving measures from both sides and an implied threat. the ALM are basicly in revolt against the very clan system. that type of thing is left unchecked would spread and give the lower castes ideas. if it's NOT nipped in the bud, Alaric risks the clans unwraveling
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I think a biig part of that front is gonna be priorities, I suspect the wolves and terran based falcons are going to focus first on the ALM over the fallen falcons. the fallen falcons are just a break away and can easy be folded back in easily with some face saving measures from both sides and an implied threat. the ALM are basicly in revolt against the very clan system. that type of thing is left unchecked would spread and give the lower castes ideas. if it's NOT nipped in the bud, Alaric risks the clans unwraveling
The ALM might end up being the first target in that area of space, but there's also the Wolf Empire territory to discover what happens, plus the Combine/Fed Suns zone, and whatever is going on in the Confederation.
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The ALM might end up being the first target in that area of space, but there's also the Wolf Empire territory to discover what happens, plus the Combine/Fed Suns zone, and whatever is going on in the Confederation.
Not to mention if given enough warning the ALM could ally with the Tamar Pact and the Kell Hounds give the Wolves a real bloody nose. They could also warn the Hells Horses suddenly history repeats itself the Wolves are pinched between two forces who don’t like them much.
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Further, the ALM is IIRC the furthest polity in the old JFOZ from Terra.
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yeaaah keep in mind I'm not saying Alaric'll be making a beeline for the ALM just that if and when the wolves are finally active in that area I see the ALM as being a higher priority
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I think the risk of cross pollination of the ALM way of living is very low. Remember, the HPG for the most part are down. The HPGs being restored are being controlled by the SeaFoxes whom would be not unlike ComStar try filter the interstellar news. Clan controlled worlds double down on any unClan like being broadcasted by the or even by JumpShip delivered News.
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I think the risk of cross pollination of the ALM way of living is very low. Remember, the HPG for the most part are down. The HPGs being restored are being controlled by the SeaFoxes whom would be not unlike ComStar try filter the interstellar news. Clan controlled worlds double down on any unClan like being broadcasted by the or even by JumpShip delivered News.
Sudeten is still reported as having a functioning HPG, quiaff ? (Thought I read it somewhere)
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I think the separation between the Fallen Falcons and Black Watch are not as savage as the separation of the Wolves and Wolves-in-Exile, but it is deeper. I think there will be some techs and warriors who try to move to the OZ and Terra (at their own risk), but Malvinas madness created some deep rifts. Depending on how Alaric treats the Black Watch we may see the remnants rejoin their OZ comrades after a bitter and brutal campaign against his foes but unless the Lyrans are destroyed a corridor would be almost impossible.
Well, luckily for us Falcons that won't be an issue since the Blackguard Falcons are expression of the old guard and not the Mongol Doctrine, Malvina and her madness seems to be gone for good.
I would love a reunification of the two CJF groups, with Jiyi busy reuilding a CJF zone and supplying the Blackwatch with mechsfrom Sudeten.
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Well, luckily for us Falcons that won't be an issue since the Blackguard Falcons are expression of the old guard and not the Mongol Doctrine, Malvina and her madness seems to be gone for good.
I would love a reunification of the two CJF groups, with Jiyi busy reuilding a CJF zone and supplying the Blackwatch with mechsfrom Sudeten.
Hear Here
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I wonder if a cause could be made for Alaric (and the ilClan Star League) creating an "arrangement" with the remaining Clan Forces in the IS and Periphery (not the HW though) to trial for the creation of Star League/Clan Galaxies to be filled by and with those Clan forces. So essentially a trial within each Clan to be the best of the best and enabling them to trial for a position within the SL Galaxies to become the new Royal Galaxies. That way they could remain Wolf/Ghost Bears/Scorpions/Ravens/Sea Foxes/Spirit Cats/Jade Falcons whilst serving the Star League and they could be rotated in/out after a set period by having opposing trials with new recruits from the existing Clan forces. That way if there was an arrangement for Clan forces to return to their parent Clan after X years serving the Star League they could do so and keep their parent clan strong. It would also create a new "Martial Olympiad" style event with the best being inducted into the SL Clan Galaxies. It would be an easy and bloodless way of getting new forces without decimating each Clan by Harvest Trials. Wolf Empire Galaxies would be the new "Hegemony" forces so if each Clan "donated" a Galaxy to the Star League - that would give them a heck of a force to "enforce" peace throughout the Inner Sphere. Also Inner Sphere houses could "donate" forces to make up other Galaxies - albeit not Royal forces.
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the problem is that while initially they'd be filled with "the best of the best" that's the type of arrangement that swiftly becomes a dumping ground
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I wonder if a cause could be made for Alaric (and the ilClan Star League) creating an "arrangement" with the remaining Clan Forces in the IS and Periphery (not the HW though) to trial for the creation of Star League/Clan Galaxies to be filled by and with those Clan forces. So essentially a trial within each Clan to be the best of the best and enabling them to trial for a position within the SL Galaxies to become the new Royal Galaxies. That way they could remain Wolf/Ghost Bears/Scorpions/Ravens/Sea Foxes/Spirit Cats/Jade Falcons whilst serving the Star League and they could be rotated in/out after a set period by having opposing trials with new recruits from the existing Clan forces. That way if there was an arrangement for Clan forces to return to their parent Clan after X years serving the Star League they could do so and keep their parent clan strong. It would also create a new "Martial Olympiad" style event with the best being inducted into the SL Clan Galaxies. It would be an easy and bloodless way of getting new forces without decimating each Clan by Harvest Trials. Wolf Empire Galaxies would be the new "Hegemony" forces so if each Clan "donated" a Galaxy to the Star League - that would give them a heck of a force to "enforce" peace throughout the Inner Sphere. Also Inner Sphere houses could "donate" forces to make up other Galaxies - albeit not Royal forces.
See my post a week or two ago.
the problem is that while initially they'd be filled with "the best of the best" that's the type of arrangement that swiftly becomes a dumping ground
Social pressures would prevent that sort of thing, or could be used to prevent it.
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My understanding was that the "SLDF" was for Spheroids who didn't want to be clanners. They would be fighting for the Star League, instead of the ilClan.
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The Clans desired to restore the Star League, it was the holy mission. Why would their troops not be a part of the revered SLDF? The Nova Cats already contributed troops to the SLDF, so it is not a stretch.
Inclusion in the Star League Defense Force and seeing Terra are the carrots Alaric has to coerce the other Clans into cooperating with his ilClan Star League.
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Aren't the Clans already part of the SLDF? Also, why are you using incidents from the sham Star League involving an abjured Clan? I would think that the Clans sign on with the ilKhanate, they know where they stand vis a vis the new Star League. I would imagine being a part of the Council with members eligible for ilkhanship and perhaps being considered the Royal army compared to the Spheroid Regular army salves many egos.
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Why would the Clans automatically be part of the new Star League? At this time, all we know is they have a commanding general- Chance Vickers IIRC.
None of the Clans whose Khans went to Terra actually bowed the knee. Alaric invited them to observe his ascension to being ilKhan and First Lord. He has to use diplomacy to integrate the three Clans outside of his power- because the Jags, Black Guard Falcons, and Wolves- since they are not his to dictate their joining. It is why I suggested letting the average warrior of those 3 Clans know the only way they would set foot on Terra was to serve a tour as part of the Star League, like the Harvest Trial social pressures it would set the average Clan warrior possibly against their leadership . . . in a unintentional way of course, oops.
As far as the Republic survivors on Terra? May were given a chance to fight the Falcons, which in Clan Wolves' eyes makes them Wolves- just as the 2 surviving tripod crew were told. Further, they would be warrior caste and adopted into the Clan. Why would the Wolves want a levee of spheriods that they are not trying to indoctrinate? Reading some of the notable pilots of the RecGuide series, they have been pretty successful with the captured League academy classes- one former League noble who was a stand out before and after the Invasion of Terra intends to Trial for the foundation of his own Bloodhouse.
The little bit Alaric has address the Nova Cat situation, he was not condemning them or their actions supporting 2SL. He has said it was a illegitimate reformation by those who were not the descendants of that legacy, a slight tweak on the previous Clan position.
Further . . . no one from another Clan can be ilKhan any longer. The Wolves are ilClan having won that right, and the ilKhan will come from their ranks.
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First, as the beginning of chapter 40 of Hour of the Wolf, Anastasia Kerensky is the Commanding General of the SLDF. Chance Vickers is saKhan of the Wolves.
Second, *shrugs* Not wise to use something you consider illegitimate as an example. In this case, why give the sham league any credit? Not saying he can't extend whatever is left of the Novacats an olive branch and offer them a way back from abjuration.
Third, these are the Clans we're talking about. Diplomacy only goes so far. They're either in the Clan system or not. Eventually, this is going to be where they stand via the ilClan, ilKhan, and other things. Ultimately, the answer to "What one has to give" must be "A bloody good thrashing."
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Ok, I flipped Chance and Anastasia, but that they are not vested in the same person is a key characteristic.
The Wolves are not in a position to fight the Cappies and force the 3 other Clans to fall in line, it is why Alaric uses symbols. He brought the Great Father's flagship back to Terra (again) and finally interned him in the proper place. The chance for Clanners to be on Terra, to properly wear the uniform of the Star League, and to also prove themselves as warriors are all factors pulling the average warrior under his sway.
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He doesnt require them to be forced into falling in line, diplomacy (admittedly not a Clan strength) could be used to sway the existing Clans/Houses into co-operating into a new Star League v3.0.
Once you get one or two on side, the rest should be more.... inclined to follow suit - being on the inside rather than the outside.
It's easy to get the Lyrans & Davions on side - the FWL a bit more difficult but not too difficult. The rest of the Clans should be doable (maybe not the Horses though as the nSL will need a test example of its muscle) - Jade Falcons - official recognition and combination with the Black Watch Falcons, Bears can be tempted with kicking the Horses and Combine, Jags will be onside just by dint of the circumstances at the moment. The Combine can be brought into the fold by negotiating a cease fire between the Bears and the Combine. Lastly... who doesn't love the Cappies... thats right. Everyone. So they'd have to be brought into line by force of arms.
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What do folks think of the Gargoyle Conal? I do not like both ERPPCs being in one arm- maybe it was originally a mod someone made using a Executioner arm?- BUT it is another config of the Gargoyle for 3050 that plays to it's heat sinking strengths that I would like to see used more . . . by 3059, the stigma should be past.
Gargoyle Conal-
2 ERPPC/RA
2 SSRM6/LT
ECM/CT
LTAG/CT
APod in each leg
I would not mind seeing one in the 3100s taking off that, make the ERPPCs into iHLLs and use that weight to give it a supercharger . . . get rid of the A-Pods too.
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What do folks think of the Gargoyle Conal? I do not like both ERPPCs being in one arm- maybe it was originally a mod someone made using a Executioner arm?- BUT it is another config of the Gargoyle for 3050 that plays to it's heat sinking strengths that I would like to see used more . . . by 3059, the stigma should be past.
Gargoyle Conal-
2 ERPPC/RA
2 SSRM6/LT
ECM/CT
LTAG/CT
APod in each leg
I would not mind seeing one in the 3100s taking off that, make the ERPPCs into iHLLs and use that weight to give it a supercharger . . . get rid of the A-Pods too.
I really wish the ERPPCs and SSRM racks had been split one to each arm. Then it could easily be confused for a stock Gargoyle. That feels like it would have been something right up Conal's alley. Some visual deception and of course not hiding, but definitely not explaining this was a custom Garg either. I could even see him using this in mind games, using a mix of ERPPC and LB-5X Gargs so the enemy never knew which was the more potent 'Mech killers, possibly wasting efforts in a duel with the wrong one.
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The Man O War Conal is one of the best configurations of that OmniMech. That's also a very, very low bar to clear. Its a good general purpose murder machine that does its best to work with the inherent limitations of a crappy chassis.
With that being said, I'll agree with wantec's comments. It'd work better with an ER PPC and Streak-6 in each arm rather than the current layout in order to give it more flexibility and less chance of losing the majority of its firepower in one hit.
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Yeah, TBH, I do not care about the SSRMs getting moved, but putting a ERPPC in each arm would be better.
Which is why I said I think it was a config built off of using a Executioner arm.
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So, y'all think that the 7th Guards Battle Cluster is a rebuilt 7th Battle Cluster? I haven't read the novels so I don't know if there's anything referencing this in there, but timing-wise this seems to be what happened (ie. after getting mauled by the Wolf Hunters in Hollabrun). What's with these Guards Battle Clusters anyway? That's a rather clunky designation.
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Something just hit me. With all the time the Wolves spent in the Free Worlds League area as of late, there is no Albatross C or IIC. There should be one.
As far as Wolf cluster names go, I've heard that the use of Guards is taken from the Russian military, where a Guards unit is designated as an Elite formation or something like that.
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So, y'all think that the 7th Guards Battle Cluster is a rebuilt 7th Battle Cluster? I haven't read the novels so I don't know if there's anything referencing this in there, but timing-wise this seems to be what happened (ie. after getting mauled by the Wolf Hunters in Hollabrun). What's with these Guards Battle Clusters anyway? That's a rather clunky designation.
It is them embracing the stupid lack of F&W fact checking and Stackpole picking up his Wolf notes, forgetting the Refusal War's fallout. A Guards cluster loses Striker/Assault/Battle/whatever to accept the honor- and Decoy is right, it probably is a Kerensky/Russian culture carry-over- it is sort of a unit citation. The 4th Wolf Guards Cluster in WCSB sort of describes what happens.
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Something just hit me. With all the time the Wolves spent in the Free Worlds League area as of late, there is no Albatross C or IIC. There should be one.
The various "C" mechs of the wolf empire mostly reflect mechs the worlds the wolves captured produced, and The Wolf Empire never took Irian where the Albatross is manafactured. Irian had been a republic world until the dark ages when it briefly went independant before joining the reconsisuted FWL.
In fact, I kinda suspect the Albatross is no longer in production in the 3100s
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I was kind of figuring for Dan. C'est la.
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It is them embracing the stupid lack of F&W fact checking and Stackpole picking up his Wolf notes, forgetting the Refusal War's fallout. A Guards cluster loses Striker/Assault/Battle/whatever to accept the honor- and Decoy is right, it probably is a Kerensky/Russian culture carry-over- it is sort of a unit citation. The 4th Wolf Guards Cluster in WCSB sort of describes what happens.
Yeah, I was indeed aware of the Guards designation, but I was just honing in on this weird "Guards Battle" gimmick. I think the first of those appeared after the Refusal War and now it has happened to perhaps my favorite Cluster. Might indeed be an oversight that's been canonized, as you suggest. You'd think they wouldn't just port their old number over as a rule in becoming a Guards cluster, since that wouldn't really work unless there happens to be opening so to speak. Also, it's not really only a Russian thing to have Guards units (though they're certainly a prominent example these days). Hearkens to olden imperial/monarchic days in Europe too.
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I was kind of figuring for Dan. C'est la.
I figure it would be a 1 off thing to be honest.
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I was kind of figuring for Dan. C'est la.
That would be fitting.
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The various "C" mechs of the wolf empire mostly reflect mechs the worlds the wolves captured produced, and The Wolf Empire never took Irian where the Albatross is manafactured. Irian had been a republic world until the dark ages when it briefly went independant before joining the reconsisuted FWL.
Washburn produced the Albatross per Obj:FWL.
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Washburn produced the Albatross per Obj:FWL.
ahh, gotcha I was going from sarna.net which only lists a refit center there
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So the GDL Lance Pack will have the 3150 GDL CO's mech- a Gargoyle. It will be a Gargoyle C too.
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So the GDL Lance Pack will have the 3150 GDL CO's mech- a Gargoyle. It will be a Gargoyle C too.
Interesting, where have you seen this?
Haven't read the story for a while but didn't think it was a C model he piloted?
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It's an Omnimech. They can change it if they want. :thumbsup:
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Look at the GDL Lance pack- Gargoyle C, jumping Shadow Hawk (IIRC, 7H and 2H are same gun ports), Regent Prime, and a Catapult K.
(https://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Gray-Death-Legion-ForcePack.png)
And yes, as so far seen in the only novel appearance, he runs a C b/c that is all they could arrange to get the weapons for at the time. It would be nice to see if get a long range config in his force too. The novella cover is also behind the mechs, we will see if it looks like that when it hits the shelf.
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Look at the GDL Lance pack- Gargoyle C, jumping Shadow Hawk (IIRC, 7H and 2H are same gun ports), Regent Prime, and a Catapult K.
(https://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Gray-Death-Legion-ForcePack.png)
And yes, as so far seen in the only novel appearance, he runs a C b/c that is all they could arrange to get the weapons for at the time. It would be nice to see if get a long range config in his force too. The novella cover is also behind the mechs, we will see if it looks like that when it hits the shelf.
Oh wow :drool:
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Looks like Isobel got her Shadowhawk back.
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The same unknown black/red Wolf unit that was in the art for Empire Alone is also on the cover of Redemption Rites. It appears that their specially is "dying"
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Well, the Marauder IIC on the cover is also interesting since that was the senior Dragoon commander standing when Alaric ordered them off the field.
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If you examine the wrecks behind it, they've got Wolf Empire markings and that red/balck scheme
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Star Colonel Othar is having a happy time of it. The guy is basically a living stomach ulcer.
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So after reading redemption rites...
I think the idea that Alaric's going to be remotely diplomatic can now be put to bed
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So after reading redemption rites...
I think the idea that Alaric's going to be remotely diplomatic can now be put to bed
After the way he treated the Horses, that comes as no surprise to me.
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Alaric was raised with the notion that he was born to rule by dint of legacy and genetics. Though he does not lack for work ethic and ambition, it seems that he mostly assumed that all would bow to the ilKhan and First Lord without need for diplomacy or tact. Neither did he think far enough beyond his current state.
Alaric is the dog chasing his own tail and caught it - He does not know what to do with it.
But will he learn quickly?
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Not sure I buy that- for one he did not demand the other Clans bow the knee, he just had them on Terra to watch his ascension.
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Not sure I buy that- for one he did not demand the other Clans bow the knee, he just had them on Terra to watch his ascension.
He does have a habit of making decisions out of spite, and wanting people to know he's spiting them though. He didn't bring back Smoke Jaguar because having a free army of badasses is great for any aspiring conqueror, he did it because he wants to tell the powers behind the Second Star League they're not the real Star League on account of being inferior Spheroids. He didn't piss off the Dragoons because he had no more use for them; he did it because they're mercenary scum, and now that he's given himself titles he believes exempt one from consequences, he's going to treat them as such.
He's going to learn pretty quickly that even people universally recognized as the rightful First Lord, people with an entire SLDF at their disposal instead of the sadly depleted forces he has, couldn't do whatever the heck they wanted. He'll either adjust his behavior accordingly or fail.
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Man this sounds as if his mother's genes are coming to the forefront. Katherine was always adapt at manipulating but then made snap decisions due to her delusions. But as we enter the time of the Ilclan it is assured one Clan will rule Terra for the time being but perhaps someone else then the Wolves.
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Not sure I buy that- for one he did not demand the other Clans bow the knee, he just had them on Terra to watch his ascension.
Yes, but he seemed to believe that because they came, they will stay loyal.
The whole idea of the clans reinstalling the Star League is laughable, really. It would be akin to Putin's Russia setting up a new United Nations.
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Yes, but he seemed to believe that because they came, they will stay loyal.
The whole idea of the clans reinstalling the Star League is laughable, really. It would be akin to Putin's Russia setting up a new United Nations.
How? The last bit in HotW just acknowledges they arrived to see the Wolves had done it. He did not start making demands on their toumans or insisting on deciding how they interact with the Inner Sphere.
The Horses got slapped down b/c they thought they deserved a shot at being ilClan. Their reasoning was laughable, and though I do not like their portrayal nor does the Khan's actions match what he did in MWDA books or even his minor Bonfire appearances/references, the Wolf reaction was spot on. It is like someone who runs half a marathon and then stopping still expecting to participate in the photo finish at the end of the race.
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It's the fact that the original Star League was adopted for the benefit of all its members. Yes Terran Hegemony was at the head and had two votes for every other house's one, and punished the Periphery for favoring their independence.
But the overall ideal behind the SL was to improve mankind. The clans are not able to improve mankind, because they see 85% of mankind as being inferior to their Warrior caste. ilClan and ilKhan does not equal Star League and First Lord at all, it's the complete opposite. It's the equivalent of the Goths sacking Rome and declaring they are the new Roman Empire, when all they did was destroy the Empire.
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It's the fact that the original Star League was adopted for the benefit of all its members. Yes Terran Hegemony was at the head and had two votes for every other house's one, and punished the Periphery for favoring their independence.
But the overall ideal behind the SL was to improve mankind. The clans are not able to improve mankind, because they see 85% of mankind as being inferior to their Warrior caste. ilClan and ilKhan does not equal Star League and First Lord at all, it's the complete opposite. It's the equivalent of the Goths sacking Rome and declaring they are the new Roman Empire, when all they did was destroy the Empire.
Maybe in the eyes of non-Clan members. However, the Clans themselves believe they've evolved past the barbarian ways that doomed the first Star League and still plagued the Inner Sphere when they came back. So it's up to them to show them the light.
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It's the fact that the original Star League was adopted for the benefit of all its members. Yes Terran Hegemony was at the head and had two votes for every other house's one, and punished the Periphery for favoring their independence.
But the overall ideal behind the SL was to improve mankind. The clans are not able to improve mankind, because they see 85% of mankind as being inferior to their Warrior caste. ilClan and ilKhan does not equal Star League and First Lord at all, it's the complete opposite. It's the equivalent of the Goths sacking Rome and declaring they are the new Roman Empire, when all they did was destroy the Empire.
LOLs, absolute LOLS . . . governments are never for the benefit of all 'members' and neither was the Star League, they are a unfortunately necessary very evil. The founding Cameron and Alaric are going to be closer in attitudes and actions than any rose-tinted view of the Star League is going to like- they both want to rule all mankind . . . and that was the sole purpose of the Star League.
Alaric's ilClanship and Cameron's creation of the Star League will be the same thing because they have the same motiviations. You can rant all you like because of your hatred for the Clans, but BOTH are power grabs . . . and a closer historical analogy would be the Russians adopting the Czar and proclaiming they were the descendant government of the Roman Empire. The Successor States are more like the Vandals, Goths, and other barbarian tribes taking parts of the Empire as their own- though to be fair TPTB borrowed the end of the Alexandrian Empire for the end of the Star League and threw in a Xenophon solution for the SLDF.
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It's the fact that the original Star League was adopted for the benefit of all its members. Yes Terran Hegemony was at the head and had two votes for every other house's one, and punished the Periphery for favoring their independence.
But the overall ideal behind the SL was to improve mankind. The clans are not able to improve mankind, because they see 85% of mankind as being inferior to their Warrior caste. ilClan and ilKhan does not equal Star League and First Lord at all, it's the complete opposite. It's the equivalent of the Goths sacking Rome and declaring they are the new Roman Empire, when all they did was destroy the Empire.
Considering parts of the Periphery still haven't recovered from the Reunification Wars and led to a guy nicknamed "Babykiller" live a long, respected life, I think we can put to bed the idea that "betterment of mankind" was the purpose. I am sure Ian Cameon told himself that, but he's still one of the most horrific monsters of the setting.
And it should be pointed out the Clans DO believe that they are improving mankind. Just like Ian Cameron thought he was improving mankind by launching the Reunification Wars. Really, only Aramis was honest with his "**** you I want to be Emperor" reasoning of change.
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Alaric's ilClanship and Cameron's creation of the Star League will be the same thing because they have the same motiviations. You can rant all you like because of your hatred for the Clans, but BOTH are power grabs . . . and a closer historical analogy would be the Russians adopting the Czar and proclaiming they were the descendant government of the Roman Empire. The Successor States are more like the Vandals, Goths, and other barbarian tribes taking parts of the Empire as their own- though to be fair TPTB borrowed the end of the Alexandrian Empire for the end of the Star League and threw in a Xenophon solution for the SLDF.
I don't know. I get the impression that the Clans think they will lead the IS simply by conquering Terra. As if it is that easy. First of all unlike the Terran Hegemony who had the muscle to back up their dominionn the Wolves don't. If other Clans tell Alric to stick his "I am Ilkhan" up his ass what can he do? Declare a trial? The IS Clans are so far away from Clan culture they will most likely ignore him. Then next is that the Cameron clan had made their influence known by settling several wars. For example they settled a brewing civil war in the Lyran Commonwealth and also settled the Andurien conflict. What has Alaric done? Oh yes I remember: Wage war and comitting war crimes. Great. Makes for a great leader and negotiator. And last point the Hegemony had a vast advantage in terms of technology botth in civilan and military sectors. Uhm I don't see that here even with the Wolves holding the center of humanity. Clan tech has propagted through the entire IS and Clan culture should it be enforced to it's fullest isn't exactly known to advance civilian science. He has a very thin line to tread if he wants to recreate a new Star League. Heck cowering behind the walls and simply watch the rest of the Is batter themselves to oblivion might be the best idea. Oh wait the Republic tried that too
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You can argue how effective Alaric might be compared to Ian Cameron, but their intents and positions are the same. I would agree the Crusaders seemed to think taking Terra would be auto-win but none of the current leaders seem to labor under that delusion- to the point Alaric was not commanding the Khans appear and/or bow the knee. To top it off, Alaric does not want to limit conflict- that has never been the goal. He wishes to harness it to feed Clan warrior's desire for glory, so peacefully integrating those who betrayed the Great Kerensky and the golden Star League has never been part of the grand plan.
The TH settling those conflicts was soft-power . . . and backing that up is hard-power. The Hegemony was just as involved in the Age of War as their surrounding Great Houses- to the point creating the League was a way to avoid facing multi-front wars. Alaric has also shown a ability to manipulate diplomacy to suit his needs. He withdrew from Tharkad which caused that world to be spared further Falcon attention. He was the author of the plan to end the conflict with the League, a truce that served both sides for quite a while.
Finally, this is a universe based on war so saying he waged war is a non-starter . . . and while it maybe a unpopular take, you have no right to surrender so what happened on Helm was not a war crime.
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This is Alaric's, as far as we know, first message outside Terra:
"All the worlds of the Empire are mine, All the worlds of the Inner Sphere and beyond. We are the ilClan and the Star League, and all will be ours. Today, or tomorrow, or forever."
yeaaaah this doesn't sound like a man whose going to be using ANY diplomacy. Alaric is clearly intending to try to take on the IS entire, and thats not gonna work out for him
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Yeah, but that is not any different than Ian Cameron.
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Yeah, but that is not any different than Ian Cameron.
I assume you're refering to the Pollox Proclaimation?
First of all Colt, the Star League was founded by diplomacy and the periphary had been initally asked to join (and the SL was rebuffed)
the proclaimation was
Furthermore, in consideration of the common goals we share, we must set aside our differences and pool our resources for the common good, once and for all.
The Star League stands for a unified Humanity. As First Lord of the Star League, it is my solemn responsibility to protect the welfare of that Humanity wherever it may be found, be it on Sian or Santiago, New Vandenberg or New Avalon, Andurien or Apollo, Castor or Canopus. Though me, the Star League assumes the awesome task of safeguarding the welfare of Humanity. It is a responsibility from which the League will never shrink, a responsibility it shall never lay down. The dark days of barbarism are over-we will not let them return again.
The only way to ensure equal protection for all, the only way to safeguard the liberties of each individual, is for every Human being to accept the benefits we offer, freely and openly. So long as a solitary individual of the most distant planet in the Periphery remains uneducated, impoverished, or disadvantaged, all are equally stricken.
We intend to see that the majority is not denied the benefits of culture and progress at the hands of a minority of radical isolationists. We intend to extend our benevolent protection into every corner of Human-occupied space, whatever the cost, until every man, woman, and child prospers and flourishes. Let no one stand in the way of Human progress. The time for reunification has come.
this is a HUUUUUUUGE differance in tone from.
"IT'S MINE! ALL MINE! I'LL COME AND GET IT ALL EVENTUALLY!" which is more or less what Alaric said
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Yeah, but that is not any different than Ian Cameron.
The difference is Alaric will use the 10 pound sledghammer, then the 5 pound, and if THAT doesn’t work then (maybe) diplomacy. Yes the Cameron’s made mistakes but more often than not it was using the the steel fist not the velvet glove. Clans think velvet gloves are for old women and wimps.
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Something tells me the velvet gloves are just for old Clan women to smack down longer.
*watches as Joanna and Natasha come by, put on velvet gloves and start smacking CJC for all they're worth."
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this is a HUUUUUUUGE differance in tone from.
"IT'S MINE! ALL MINE! I'LL COME AND GET IT ALL EVENTUALLY!" which is more or less what Alaric said
Yeah, the difference is that Alaric Ward says what Ian Cameron privately thought ^-^
But in seriousness, "We intend to see that the majority is not denied the benefits of culture and progress at the hands of a minority of radical isolationists. We intend to extend our benevolent protection into every corner of Human-occupied space, whatever the cost, until every man, woman, and child prospers and flourishes. Let no one stand in the way of Human progress. The time for reunification has come." is pretty much just a fancy way of dressing up the same thing Alaric said; you are joining Star League and submitting to my authority, and your opinion on the matter is completely irrelevant because you don't get a choice.
The principal difference? Ian Cameron had five future successor states and a Terran Hegemony. Alaric has three toumans, two of which are severely understrength and the remainder of which is scuffed as heck. Ian Cameron was fighting Periphery States. Alaric is fighting everyone and has let them know he doesn't think they have a right to exist from the get go. We'll see how well that piece of strategic genius plays out.
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Furthermore, in consideration of the common goals we share, we must set aside our differences and pool our resources for the common good, once and for all.
The Star League stands for a unified Humanity. As First Lord of the Star League, it is my solemn responsibility to protect the welfare of that Humanity wherever it may be found, be it on Sian or Santiago, New Vandenberg or New Avalon, Andurien or Apollo, Castor or Canopus. Though me, the Star League assumes the awesome task of safeguarding the welfare of Humanity. It is a responsibility from which the League will never shrink, a responsibility it shall never lay down. The dark days of barbarism are over-we will not let them return again.
The only way to ensure equal protection for all, the only way to safeguard the liberties of each individual, is for every Human being to accept the benefits we offer, freely and openly. So long as a solitary individual of the most distant planet in the Periphery remains uneducated, impoverished, or disadvantaged, all are equally stricken.
We intend to see that the majority is not denied the benefits of culture and progress at the hands of a minority of radical isolationists. We intend to extend our benevolent protection into every corner of Human-occupied space, whatever the cost, until every man, woman, and child prospers and flourishes. Let no one stand in the way of Human progress. The time for reunification has come.
Pretty words mean nothing. The Periphery took this a threat and declined. To prove them wrong, the Star League started one of the most vicious wars known to mankind. Whatever good he did, the Reunification Wars made Ian Cameron one of the settings greatest villains.
Oh. And were the Periphery ever accepted as equals in the Star League? Or were they basically subjugated to the Inner Sphere like they feared joining the Star League would result in? Remember, the actual ruler of the RWR wanted to join Star League and was basically under siege for over a decade. But at the same time, they were treated the same as the others by the Council.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying say since Cameron is bad, then Alaric isn't as bad. I see no reason not a like a bad guy in fictional story, especially in something like a wargame or CCG where actual peace is something that can never be had because then the game would in. I'm just saying Ian Cameron is an absolute monster and should be remembered such. This has no effect on whether or not Alaric is monster or if his Star League is good or bad thing for the rest of humanity.
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Something tells me the velvet gloves are just for old Clan women to smack down longer.
*watches as Joanna and Natasha come by, put on velvet gloves and start smacking CJC for all they're worth."
Are you calling Warhammer, Dire Wolfs, and Mad Dogs velvet gloves? What is the steel fist? WMDs?
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I think the Bloodhouse of Kerensky may be a problem for Alaric Ward. They will never forget nor forgive that none of them lead the conquest of Terra and the Wolves to be the ilClan. Alaric played them and they know this.
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I think the Bloodhouse of Kerensky may be a problem for Alaric Ward. They will never forget nor forgive that none of them lead the conquest of Terra and the Wolves to be the ilClan. Alaric played them and they know this.
Anastasia Kerensky, likely Bloodhouse leader, got to take down Malvina- thought she killed her. It practically ended the Falcon's efforts in the ilClan trial.
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Yeah, but that is not any different than Ian Cameron.
Well it was technically McKenna's desire to unite all former planets of the Alliance with the Hegemony again. But at that time the then Hegemony had the absolute advantage over the rest of the Is (especially the only Warship fleet) And what happened? The Syrma ambush which put a screeching halt to any more advances. And Cameron knew he couldn't take on all Houses so he slowly broke them into pieces to make them more friendly to his overtures. Telling everyone "I am gonna get you" isn't exactly the smartest move. Even if he has the biggest Warship fleet (if he can convince the Ravens to join) that alone doesn't help you win campaigns. He simply doesn't have enough boots on the ground
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Anastasia Kerensky, likely Bloodhouse leader, got to take down Malvina- thought she killed her. It practically ended the Falcon's efforts in the ilClan trial.
Honestly, I almost guarantee Anastasia is NOT the Kerensky Bloodhouse leader. First off, she came from the Exiles and wasn't particularly popular there, hence her escapades that brought her into the Republic space in the first place. Second, Bloodhouse leader is a very political position, and Anastasia is not fond of politics. Third, according to The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky on pg 97, Each Wolf Clan had its own set of Blood Heritages and Bloodhouses, meaning double the normal count.
One last thing to remember is there are two Kerensky bloodnames, thus two separate Bloodhouses.
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Honestly, I almost guarantee Anastasia is NOT the Kerensky Bloodhouse leader. First off, she came from the Exiles and wasn't particularly popular there, hence her escapades that brought her into the Republic space in the first place. Second, Bloodhouse leader is a very political position, and Anastasia is not fond of politics. Third, according to The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky on pg 97, Each Wolf Clan had its own set of Blood Heritages and Bloodhouses, meaning double the normal count.
One last thing to remember is there are two Kerensky bloodnames, thus two separate Bloodhouses.
Except . . .
#1, where we have seen it the highest ranking/prestige bloodname holder is the House Leader . . . the only exception I can think of is whatisis Pryde that was CO of the Falcon Guard while Marthe Pryde was Khan- BUT he had the Aiden Bloodheritage which the Falcons were still swooning over. FREX, after former Khan Cyrilla died it was Conal Ward IIRC until Phelan became Khan and Conal was ousted the same day.
#2, Anastasia could have the position and delegate much of the duties/responsibilities . . . with that said, during her time as saKhan the touman did not suffer under her management. So she can either do it or can find people to do a lot of the admin stuff for her.
#3, I would say that phrasing is actually suspect as indicated by FMWC later. The Warden Wolves left with a full copy of the genetic repository. However, if they did not have a Bloodname holder go into exile with them they did not fill or even use those Bloodnames maternally. FMWC indicates they had a handful of dormant Wolf bloodnames because of this situation. We have also never afaik been given a indication the Wardens expanded beyond the Bloodname count they left the OZ with- nor that the Crusaders appropriated the heritages of those who went into Exile. The ONLY case was Phelan's Ward heritage which is what everyone assumed Vlad was fighting for, but he claimed Conal's vacant heritage.
I take it back, the Wardens DID use one Kerensky Bloodheritage that did not arrive in Lyran space- Natasha's heritage that Ranna took. We do not even have any indication they 'used' Ulric's heritage going forward.
The Crusader Wolves in the few interactions we get between them and the Wardens outside of Phelan/Vlad show respect between the warriors and recognition of their Bloodnames as legitimate. When Alaric temporarily seized the Warden observer before they turned on the Lyrans, he was given the honor of his Bloodname and invited to return. Alaric's general call for them to return also did not indicate they were viewed as a separate Clan. He also recognized the Warden Wolves' resurrection of Jaguar Bloodhouses, letting the a Weaver fight a Trial of Propagation that was won . . . though the Crusaders had no access/control to the legacies at that time.
Finally, while we know there is A Kerensky and N Kerensky Bloodhouses the writers have never told us which one any of the named characters.
As said before, it is unfortunate TPTB have never delved into the Bloodhouses or their politics because it is the underlying foundation of all of the Clans politics. I do not expect that to change and there is a chance this could get handwaved where the Bloodhouses are consolidated after the ilClan Trial and as part of the victorious side have their Bloodname counts expanded to 50 possible if they were all propagated or at least the count as of the time of the landing on Terra. IE, say between the two Clans there were an active 38 Wards or whatever. This recognizes that most Bloodname counts would not have been at full count anyway.
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The ONLY case was Phelan's Ward heritage which is what everyone assumed Vlad was fighting for, but he claimed Conal's vacant heritage.
pretty sure it was the exact oppisite there Colt
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I think the Bloodhouse of Kerensky may be a problem for Alaric Ward. They will never forget nor forgive that none of them lead the conquest of Terra and the Wolves to be the ilClan. Alaric played them and they know this.
You are forgetting Garner Kerensky. SaKhan of Clan Wolf, recoverer of the McKenna's Pride, leader of Alpha Galaxy, and theater commander during the battle for Terra until his death in the dezgra assassination ambushes conducted by the Republic. As already mentioned Anastasia Kerensky brought the Warden Wolves to Terra and defeated Malvina Hazen. Also, Marotta Kerensky brought the Dragoons to Terra. Kerenskys played vital roles in Clan Wolf becoming ilClan, and had prominent leadership positions in the Clan and the campaign. In fact, among the Crusader Wolves it has almost become a tradition for the Clan to have a Ward Khan and a Kerensky SaKhan.
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Finished reading the latest shrapnel story "One Door Closes"
Question, from that account from the characters, they said that Alaric was plastering Wolf and Star League images every where, does that include the original Cameron Star, and or the modified Clan one ?
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I'm betting that the answer is "Yes."
If it is SLDF imagery, then the Cameron Star should be involved. It's not proscribed by clan law. Indeed, the Blood Spirits use it in their imagery.
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Definitely both. He'll want to associate one with the other right away in the minds of the common folk.
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Maybe the Wolf logo and the Cameron star in the background? Or both next to another? Imho the first would make more sense as an association that the wolves have revived the Star League.
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It would be a interesting supposition that the Star League star replaces the Clan's traditional dagger star in their iconography.
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#1, where we have seen it the highest ranking/prestige bloodname holder is the House Leader . . . the only exception I can think of is whatisis Pryde that was CO of the Falcon Guard while Marthe Pryde was Khan- BUT he had the Aiden Bloodheritage which the Falcons were still swooning over. FREX, after former Khan Cyrilla died it was Conal Ward IIRC until Phelan became Khan and Conal was ousted the same day.
In Clan Blood Spirit, Sariah Church was the House Leader of the Church Bloodhouse, and she didn't appear to hold any particularly high rank (not a Galaxy Commander or Star Colonel on the rolls). The method of becoming a House Leader differs from Clan to Clan: the Coyotes elect theirs by vote, the Vipers have candidates duke it out in Trials, etc. So it's not set in stone by any means that the highest-ranking/prestigious Bloodname holder is the House Leader.
That said, I happen to agree with you that there's at least a decent chance that Anastasia could be the House Leader for the Exiles' Kerensky Bloodhouse. Yeah, she wasn't popular in the Exiles... two decades and change ago. A lot has happened since then; not only did Anastasia spearhead the reunion of the two halves of the Wolf Clan (albeit at Alaric's behest), but she's the one that took down Malvina Hazen in single, straight-up Clan-style combat, something that only Aleksandr Hazen was able to do. But there's also the fact that she doesn't appear to enjoy politics, so it's a 50/50 at best, I'd think.
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In Clan Blood Spirit, Sariah Church was the House Leader of the Church Bloodhouse, and she didn't appear to hold any particularly high rank (not a Galaxy Commander or Star Colonel on the rolls). The method of becoming a House Leader differs from Clan to Clan: the Coyotes elect theirs by vote, the Vipers have candidates duke it out in Trials, etc. So it's not set in stone by any means that the highest-ranking/prestigious Bloodname holder is the House Leader.
For whatever it's worth, Warriors of Kerensky states that house leaders are "traditionally the oldest Bloodnamed house members", so while there are certainly variations from Clan to Clan as with many things, it's probably safe to assume this is the default in the absence of canon stating otherwise. Note, too, that this has nothing to do with either rank or prestige. It's just seniority -- rather ironic for the warrior caste.
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EXCEPT . . .
Phelan was not the oldest, nor was Conal as described. Ravil Pryde was also not the oldest . . . but honestly, I was not aware of the Church case though aside from those do we actually ever know who is the Bloodhouse Leader?
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Generally speaking, no, because we've never gotten any real focus on the Bloodhouses as entities. Which is a real shame.
And of course Phelan/Conal/Ravill weren't the oldest. This is Clan Wolf we're talking about here. Bucking tradition is traditional for them. ;D
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Ravil was the Falcons, lol, while Marthe (older) was the Khan so . . .
But otherwise, yeah I agree . . . interestingly though, it would have made Natasha Bloodhouse Leader for N Kerensky or A Kerensky- whichever she is from. Probably A Kerensky based on her attitude and how BT treats that sort of thing.
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Well, you know how Falcons are... they love to scream about how traditional they are, they wear it in their plumage, but then flout tradition left and right because, well, every faction in BattleTech is made up of hypocrites when it's convenient for them. ;D
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For whatever it's worth, Warriors of Kerensky states that house leaders are "traditionally the oldest Bloodnamed house members", so while there are certainly variations from Clan to Clan as with many things, it's probably safe to assume this is the default in the absence of canon stating otherwise. Note, too, that this has nothing to do with either rank or prestige. It's just seniority -- rather ironic for the warrior caste.
I don't think it by default goes to the oldest Bloodnamed house member, I think it's the inverse, that the oldest Bloodnamed house members are typically the House Leaders. Saying that to survive that long as Bloodnamed warrior you typically have to have the smarts, connections, etc. that you would need to become the House Leader first.
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So not to completely change the subject, but I was working on something that caused me to re-read the piece in ilClan on Operation Reunion, and it got me wondering.
The Wolves-in-Exile disappeared from the known Commonwealth space in May of 3148, and then we don't "hear" from them again until Alaric dispatches Anastasia Kerensky to bring them back into the fold in November of 3150. So...what were they doing for the intervening year and a half? Where were they? What was their plan before Anastasia showed up? And how did she know where to find them?
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Answer: Blorp.
Real answer: Probably still Blorp. I don't think those particular plot points were really thought through.
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And I think during that period they had some Warden Wolf warriors go over the the Crusader Wolves- such as the Weaver who won a Propagation on Solaris VII before Alaric moved.
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So not to completely change the subject, but I was working on something that caused me to re-read the piece in ilClan on Operation Reunion, and it got me wondering.
The Wolves-in-Exile disappeared from the known Commonwealth space in May of 3148, and then we don't "hear" from them again until Alaric dispatches Anastasia Kerensky to bring them back into the fold in November of 3150. So...what were they doing for the intervening year and a half? Where were they? What was their plan before Anastasia showed up? And how did she know where to find them?
Per pg 26 of Shattered Fortress, they departed Arc Royal for Donegal and then I think they essentially hang out there and rebuild until they show up later on Terra.
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Per pg 26 of Shattered Fortress, they departed Arc Royal for Donegal and then I think they essentially hang out there and rebuild until they show up later on Terra.
I think that some of the Rec guides had them setting up clan spec production there, or helping someone set up clan spec production
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I had the impression they were building up for a strike to against the Falcons to retake territory, but now I’m not sure where I read that.
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They already had production on Donegal when Arc Royal became the front lines.
And no, per Shattered Fortress they pulled off of Donegal and all the other worlds with no notice in that May of 3148. Khan Miriam Shaw sent a note to the LCAF suggesting they garrison the two worlds the Wolves retook from the Falcons. This was after Roderick Steiner won against Stephanie Christu on Coventry since she left that world and ended up landing on a Wolf cluster trying to retake a 3rd world before granting them hegira.
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Exactly. There's a year and change, almost two, when they're more or less fully unaccounted for. And since Alaric didn't dispatch Annie K to seal that deal until toward the end of that period, presumably they were up to something wholly unrelated.
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Answer: Blorp.
Real answer: Probably still Blorp. I don't think those particular plot points were really thought through.
As much as I wish we could blame Blaine here, he wasn't involved in writing Shattered Fortress, where the bulk of this happened.
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As much as I wish we could blame Blaine here, he wasn't involved in writing Shattered Fortress, where the bulk of this happened.
Sure we can… at least half of it, anyway.. He had Anastasia go off-screen to grab the Exiles instead of giving us what would surely have been a worthwhile scene of actually seeing that meeting and showing us where she went to get them.
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They already had production on Donegal when Arc Royal became the front lines.
And no, per Shattered Fortress they pulled off of Donegal and all the other worlds with no notice in that May of 3148. Khan Miriam Shaw sent a note to the LCAF suggesting they garrison the two worlds the Wolves retook from the Falcons. This was after Roderick Steiner won against Stephanie Christu on Coventry since she left that world and ended up landing on a Wolf cluster trying to retake a 3rd world before granting them hegira.
Ah, i knew the Rec Guides mentioned they had production there, I thought it was after Arc Royal became the front lines
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How many Wolf subfactions still exist besides the Dragoons?
And this may be a dumb question, but are the Steel Wolves and Steel Wolves Corp two different groups or does Sarna need to be updated?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steel_Wolves (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steel_Wolves)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steel_Wolves_Corp (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steel_Wolves_Corp)
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How many Wolf subfactions still exist besides the Dragoons?
And this may be a dumb question, but are the Steel Wolves and Steel Wolves Corp two different groups or does Sarna need to be updated?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steel_Wolves (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steel_Wolves)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steel_Wolves_Corp (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steel_Wolves_Corp)
they are different.
Steel Wolves Corp came out of when the OG Steel Wolves split apart after the Wolf Hunters took the best. The regular steel wolves reformed a little while later.
the new Steel Wolves are still active, they fought against the Clan Protectorate in the Marik worlds, for the FWL. The Wolf Hunters have been reabsorbed by Clan Wolf, when Asastasia became their sa-Khan. Steel Wolves Corp, no idea.
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Your best tracing is who the commander is . . . Star Colonel Xera took armor and some infantry and went off as mercs on her own. The ASF commander left the mechwarrior after he betrayed his own lack of honor trying to kill Anastasia- he had promised to rebuild them and return to Tigress. He got dead at some point I am sure so . . .
You have the armor & infantry component that went merc, and you have the Aero with some ground forces . . . that may or may not have survived to the 3140s. IF they tried to return to Tigress they would have gotten steamrolled by Cappies otw.
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Star Colonel Xera is in control of the Steel Wolves mercenaries, Xera was aerospace, and they had a decent amount of 'mechs and elementals.
Steel Wolves Corp Mercenaries were founded by Nikola Demos, an armor commander who went her own way after Anastasia started Operation Apple Seed.
You think they'd recombine after so long and since they're both working for House Marik, or join the Clan Protectorate, but I guess not.
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It's a power dynamic. They both have their own thing. Why give it up or anything up to anyone else?
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What does the Fortress Wall look like now? Either HotW or IC said they were going to keep it active but there's been a steady flow of JumpShips in and out of the system. Is Clan Wolf providing custom navigators to jump the other Khans' ships just outside the Wall and then to Terra (perhaps with special blindfolds so they don't know what's happening)? If they're just telling everyone now that really defeats the purpose of the Wall in the first place.
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What does the Fortress Wall look like now? Either HotW or IC said they were going to keep it active but there's been a steady flow of JumpShips in and out of the system. Is Clan Wolf providing custom navigators to jump the other Khans' ships just outside the Wall and then to Terra (perhaps with special blindfolds so they don't know what's happening)? If they're just telling everyone now that really defeats the purpose of the Wall in the first place.
Willing to bet they have their Jumpships outside the wall, and will transfer Dropships to their Jumpships to go to Earth, then transfer them back when they leave.
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Yeah, but even a attached dropship's navigation system would still function . . . probably have their own ferrying in . . . though the Sea Foxes appear to be free to come & go.
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Yeah, but even a attached dropship's navigation system would still function . . . probably have their own ferrying in . . . though the Sea Foxes appear to be free to come & go.
When Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon found out about the “hole” in the Fortress Wall the Sea Foxes found out at the same time. Thinking about Stones strategy of letting the Clans in there is probably only one way in and out.
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The Fortress was easily penetrated as long as you're not doing long-range jumps. Jump to somewhere say 30 AU from Sol, somewhere in the ecliptic so you're as far away from the standard jump points as you can be. Then jump again to where you want to go; your emergence wave will be too short-lived for the defenders to call up a spare jump drive to mess up your own jump. You'll have already arrived by the time they can do anything about it.
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The Fortress was easily penetrated as long as you're not doing long-range jumps. Jump to somewhere say 30 AU from Sol, somewhere in the ecliptic so you're as far away from the standard jump points as you can be. Then jump again to where you want to go; your emergence wave will be too short-lived for the defenders to call up a spare jump drive to mess up your own jump. You'll have already arrived by the time they can do anything about it.
That’s not really important…it’s who knows to do that. And honestly now it’s a lot of people.
RasDom, Sea Fox (not sure all khanates have the knowledge), fed suns, plus the two groups on terra (their remants outside don’t know, they didn’t get the info until they were poised at Terra. Well JF might actually, given how they got send in piecemeal.)
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Fed suns ?
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Fed suns ?
Perhaps from the data the mercenary unit The Cheetas gave them in one of the Shrapnell stories in exchange for funding their mercenary company. The same unit that has Stone's Atlas "Revenant" in their roster. Though what they could do with that info is another question. Perhaps slip it into the Combine and Capellan hands to distract them. Also the wall WILL die in a short period of time unless Alaric is willing to rip his Jumpship fleet to shreds. That or he will realize the true meaning of "We are not stuck with you. YOU are stuck with US!" Stone said so himself tzhat the wall was never meant to be a safeguard forever and that the Republic citizen would revolt at one point. Now Alaric is stuck with several billions of Terrans behind a wall. Also was it ever confirmed that it was Stone who slipped that info out? IlClan made it sound as if the Wolves found the solution themselves by simple trial and error. Funny how the Capellans never figured that out and they had at least 2 very big tries
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Fed suns ?
Stone sent an envoy to them requesting help, who was turned down eventually. I assume he gave them the way to jump past the wall, so they could provide something more than thoughts and prayers for the Republic.
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Perhaps from the data the mercenary unit The Cheetas gave them in one of the Shrapnell stories in exchange for funding their mercenary company. The same unit that has Stone's Atlas "Revenant" in their roster. Though what they could do with that info is another question. Perhaps slip it into the Combine and Capellan hands to distract them. Also the wall WILL die in a short period of time unless Alaric is willing to rip his Jumpship fleet to shreds. That or he will realize the true meaning of "We are not stuck with you. YOU are stuck with US!" Stone said so himself tzhat the wall was never meant to be a safeguard forever and that the Republic citizen would revolt at one point. Now Alaric is stuck with several billions of Terrans behind a wall. Also was it ever confirmed that it was Stone who slipped that info out? IlClan made it sound as if the Wolves found the solution themselves by simple trial and error. Funny how the Capellans never figured that out and they had at least 2 very big tries
IIRC, it’s very specifically a Ghost Knight on Stone’s orders. Falcons get it from Wolves. Later, he sends that info to at least the Bears and probably FedSuns so they could slip in and help if they come.
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Also was it ever confirmed that it was Stone who slipped that info out? IlClan made it sound as if the Wolves found the solution themselves by simple trial and error.
Yes, Hour of the Wolf establishes that Stone sent the Wolves the information.
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Yes, Hour of the Wolf establishes that Stone sent the Wolves the information.
shhhh, that's classified (embarrassing) information ;D
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shhhh, that's classified (embarrassing) information ;D
Unsubstantiated and unscrupulous rumors according to the ilkhan. Shame on you for spreading them.
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I wonder did Stone give Tucker that info? the Twitter campaign that started after the Ilclan trial seems to have been started by him. And Shattered Fortress gave a hint that Stone gave Tucker some information when Tucker confronted Stone that their supposed plan was not working (or rather was never intendend to work as initially outlined)
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Unsubstantiated and unscrupulous rumors according to the ilkhan. Shame on you for spreading them.
hahaha, especially after reading "Dominion's Divided", Alaric is fast losing credibility with me. (Thinks, should I / thinking to, pull my forces back to Clan Jade Falcon Space ?)
What could an "escape clause" look like for Stephanie IF Alaric continues to loose "credibility ;D"
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hahaha, especially after reading "Dominion's Divided", Alaric is fast losing credibility with me. (Thinks, should I / thinking to, pull my forces back to Clan Jade Falcon Space ?)
What could an "escape clause" look like for Stephanie IF Alaric continues to loose "credibility ;D"
I thought the "Escape clause" in Clan thinking is "Kick the incompetent leadership out of position and do it yourself"
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I;ve long been saying that people shouldn't discount the Star League Falcons out Preatorians can swiftly become king makers
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Nothing can stop Knives Out Chistu when she decides she doesn't like whoever's in charge, don't ya know? :D
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Nothing can stop Knives Out Chistu when she decides she doesn't like whoever's in charge, don't ya know? :D
Dear Lord, that nickname needs to stick. :))
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IIRC, it’s very specifically a Ghost Knight on Stone’s orders. Falcons get it from Wolves. Later, he sends that info to at least the Bears and probably FedSuns so they could slip in and help if they come.
the fedsuns may have even ahd it earlier, rememebr Julian VISITED Terra on his way back home from the Lyran Commonwealth.
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Dear Lord, that nickname needs to stick. :))
yep ;D
What's a nickname we can give Jiyi ?
Side note: Also you think down the track, will it turn out Jiyi and Stephanie are Sibkin ? When we actually see some official dialogue between them ? Would be a good linking thing, as again, if Stephanie gets fed up with Alaric, Jiyi can say, come up here sis
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No, I want to say at one point he is contemplating he is the only one from his sibko left after Malvina's madness.
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No, I want to say at one point he is contemplating he is the only one from his sibko left after Malvina's madness.
But then he finds out Stephanie is there ! ;D :thumbsup:
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But then he finds out Stephanie is there ! ;D :thumbsup:
Sadly the Jade Falcons have been to successful that only one or two batches are not a few fries short of a happy meal.
Bedsides with Jiyi being the last survivor of his sibko it further emphasizes the need for an heir for the renegade Falcons.
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But then he finds out Stephanie is there ! ;D :thumbsup:
He was the last before Malvina led them to Terra.
Honestly, if a warrior is in their mid-30s with the typical (Republic era might be different) turn over rate they are probably their only sibko member tested out that is still alive. The times that would not be the case would IMO be something like a pair of Bloodnamed (and still one would likely have died, we see that in fiction) or a Bloodnamed & failure that is either in a solahma or even demoted to training cadre.
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What do you think, is Alaric actively recruiting warriors from the defeated RAF? Via Trial of Positions? Giving RAF veterans their own style of Honor ribbons because they did fight in the epic battle for Terra, either?
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What do you think, is Alaric actively recruiting warriors from the defeated RAF? Via Trial of Positions? Giving RAF veterans their own style of Honor ribbons because they did fight in the epic battle for Terra, either?
Already did- the tripod crew & Tara among others. As far as Honor Ribbons . . . they fought as Wolves in the ilClan Trial. Wolf ranks would have been swollen with RAF troops who did not want to see the Falcons win.
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For the story (HotW) as presented to make sense, it couldn’t have been a lot of RAF. Otherwise the ilClan trial would have been a lopsided beating from moment one instead of a roughly equal but eventual snowballing that it was presented as.
And some of those RAF who fought ended up quitting the wolves after Terra because they wanted nothing to do with Alaric. They just wanted to stop Malvina. We have no idea what percentage.
I’m also not expecting a lot of RAF warriors who wouldn’t sign up to stop Malvina signing on afterwards. I imagine a few would trickle in, but not large numbers.
And all of this is just gut feeling. We won’t know specifics until ilKEO or unless there’s a very revealing Shrapnel issue
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Alaric's recruiting will ultimately be whatever suits the plot. if they want clan wolf to be strong then he'll recruit heavily as the people of terra drink the kool aid and line up for a second dose..
if they want the wolves to be isolated and alone in a hostile island... that'll be it's own thing too
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"Whatever suits the plot" is categorically true, for literally everything in BattleTech and every other fictional setting, but it's also a terrible answer for generating discussion.
It also seems to be the theme of the new wave of storytelling lately: "whatever suits the plot", everything else be damned. HotW was especially bad for this, but DD is up there too.
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"Whatever suits the plot" is categorically true, for literally everything in BattleTech and every other fictional setting, but it's also a terrible answer for generating discussion.
It also seems to be the theme of the new wave of storytelling lately: "whatever suits the plot", everything else be damned. HotW was especially bad for this, but DD is up there too.
in this case Terra could swing eaither way, it's simply too ahrd to tell, we simply don't have eneugh info on how the Wolves are treating Terra and how the Terrans as responding to their new overlords.
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in this case Terra could swing eaither way, it's simply too ahrd to tell, we simply don't have eneugh info on how the Wolves are treating Terra and how the Terrans as responding to their new overlords.
In other words, "whatever suits the plot". Great discussion! :thumbsup:
(Not a swipe at you, a swipe at the situation.)
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Wolves have, traditionally, been good at indoctrination with bondsmen (re Tyra's wingman becoming a Invasion Wolf) . . . the problem with that is it takes some time and with the acceptance of RAF on the Wolf side of the ilClan Trial, they did not have long enough for all the bondsmen as evidenced by the Tripod crew.
The other side of that is FREX the survivors of commands that surrendered to the Wolves rather than face the Falcons or to help the Wolves against the Falcons. Like the Tripod crew, they could have gone to Galatea because they were given the 'rights' of warriors in Clan society . . . but they would also show up with what they had and little support since techs are not warriors.
SO . . . IMO it would be a sliding scale . . . the longer a RAF member was a bondsman to a Wolf, the more of a chance they would stay in the touman. Thus a bondsman from a unit stationed in Australia is more likely to remain with the Wolves than a bondsman taken in Europe or North America . . .
The other interesting bit might be is the bondholder a Clan trueborn? freeborn? or abathka from the Inner Sphere, such as the League noble who wants to found his own Bloodhouse? The latter as converts might be more successful converting a RAF member.
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Wolves have, traditionally, been good at indoctrination with bondsmen (re Tyra's wingman becoming a Invasion Wolf) . . . the problem with that is it takes some time and with the acceptance of RAF on the Wolf side of the ilClan Trial, they did not have long enough for all the bondsmen as evidenced by the Tripod crew.
The other side of that is FREX the survivors of commands that surrendered to the Wolves rather than face the Falcons or to help the Wolves against the Falcons. Like the Tripod crew, they could have gone to Galatea because they were given the 'rights' of warriors in Clan society . . . but they would also show up with what they had and little support since techs are not warriors.
SO . . . IMO it would be a sliding scale . . . the longer a RAF member was a bondsman to a Wolf, the more of a chance they would stay in the touman. Thus a bondsman from a unit stationed in Australia is more likely to remain with the Wolves than a bondsman taken in Europe or North America . . .
The other interesting bit might be is the bondholder a Clan trueborn? freeborn? or abathka from the Inner Sphere, such as the League noble who wants to found his own Bloodhouse? The latter as converts might be more successful converting a RAF member.
Assuming its the CapCon that takes the first run at the ilClan, a lot of those exRAF bondsmen would probably be enthusiastic supporters for the defense of Terra from Liao, in a way they wouldn't if it was say the Bears coming down.
Children of Kerensky had Alaric make taking RAF bondsmen a key part of the invasion plan, so there should be a decent number available to bolster the ranks.
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Especially considering RAF personnel, gov or mil, the only difference between Malvina and the Cappies is how much black vs how much green was painted on the gear.
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Especially considering RAF personnel, gov or mil, the only difference between Malvina and the Cappies is how much black vs how much green was painted on the gear.
That’s not even remotely true. Malvina taking Terra meant billions dead. CapCon taking Terra likely spelled the end of the Republic, but the people would survive. Same with Wolf, which is why any joined to fight Malvina.
RotS certainly hates CapCon, but it isn’t literally do or die. The same impetus isn’t there to help wolves fight Daoshen as it was for Malvina
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RotS certainly hates CapCon, but it isn’t literally do or die. The same impetus isn’t there to help wolves fight Daoshen as it was for Malvina
Might want to re-read Wars of the Republic and Shattered Fortress.
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Wolves have, traditionally, been good at indoctrination with bondsmen (re Tyra's wingman becoming a Invasion Wolf) . . . the problem with that is it takes some time and with the acceptance of RAF on the Wolf side of the ilClan Trial, they did not have long enough for all the bondsmen as evidenced by the Tripod crew.
They maybe good in indoctrination of their bondsman but the Wolves (from the invasion and beyond) have treated the lower castes as second class citizens. They may have separated other bondsman family and friends but that’s hard to do when you’re on the same planet. Unless Alaric severely changes the attitude of the Wolves he may face an internal revolt if the Cappies or Hell’s Horses don’t finish him off first.
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Might want to re-read Wars of the Republic and Shattered Fortress.
Nothing in there remotely addresses my point. Capellans want Terra for political reasons, same as Wolves. Both would try to remake Terra. Falcons were going to kill billions of people if they took Terra. Possibly everyone on Terra.
There’s a huge difference between “I hate these people, they’ll change the planet’s culture” and “if these people win, everyone on this planet will be murdered horribly” in terms of motivation
The closest we have to up to date, on ground POV over the matter is Rock of the Republic. Stone planned to save Capellans for last because they operate like a rational IS power and he can try to wheel and deal with them. Clanners were the irrational ones most likely to cause the most damage to Terra.
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Nothing in there remotely addresses my point. Capellans want Terra for political reasons, same as Wolves. Both would try to remake Terra. Falcons were going to kill billions of people if they took Terra. Possibly everyone on Terra.
There’s a huge difference between “I hate these people, they’ll change the planet’s culture” and “if these people win, everyone on this planet will be murdered horribly” in terms of motivation
The closest we have to up to date, on ground POV over the matter is Rock of the Republic. Stone planned to save Capellans for last because they operate like a rational IS power and he can try to wheel and deal with them. Clanners were the irrational ones most likely to cause the most damage to Terra.
That was Stone's point of view in dealing with the current crisis. The Cappies have been the Republic's primary rival for most of its existence. They resisted its creation. Invaded it prior to the Dark Age, and (reading between the lines) have taken the more Republic Worlds than any other power since the HPG blackout began. Would the Cappies be worse than Mavina, probably not, the Mongol doctrine is brutal. But between the Wolves and the Cappies, the Wolves at least are brining a Holy reverence and a desire to restore terra to the center of humanities universe. The Cappies just want the dirt, and to turn people into servators.
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The Cappies just want the dirt, and to turn people into servators.
Is that really worse than being forced into a Clan's lower castes? At least a servitor can earn their way into higher privilege (to a point) and their children can become something other than what their parents were.
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That was Stone's point of view in dealing with the current crisis. The Cappies have been the Republic's primary rival for most of its existence. They resisted its creation. Invaded it prior to the Dark Age, and (reading between the lines) have taken the more Republic Worlds than any other power since the HPG blackout began. Would the Cappies be worse than Mavina, probably not, the Mongol doctrine is brutal. But between the Wolves and the Cappies, the Wolves at least are brining a Holy reverence and a desire to restore terra to the center of humanities universe. The Cappies just want the dirt, and to turn people into servators.
Malvina’s goal was to kill every human. Yea, her holding Terra is the worst outcome. Most everyone on that planet would die. Either because Terra resisted her or because she won’t give it up when her enemies eventually come to rescue Terra from her. She was absolutely capable of seeding the cities with nukes as a final strategy.
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Malvina’s goal was to kill every human. Yea, her holding Terra is the worst outcome. Most everyone on that planet would die. Either because Terra resisted her or because she won’t give it up when her enemies eventually come to rescue Terra from her. She was absolutely capable of seeding the cities with nukes as a final strategy.
Speaking as Malvina's biggest fan (she's my favorite BT character), this is 100% accurate. Malvina's endgame was to wipe out humanity entirely. On Daoshen's absolute worst day, he's not an existential threat to Terra like she was.
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They maybe good in indoctrination of their bondsman but the Wolves (from the invasion and beyond) have treated the lower castes as second class citizens. They may have separated other bondsman family and friends but that’s hard to do when you’re on the same planet. Unless Alaric severely changes the attitude of the Wolves he may face an internal revolt if the Cappies or Hell’s Horses don’t finish him off first.
Lol, no- not in the Invasion . . . they had cultural differences- like selecting the brightest who traveled with them- that took some time to ease, but the Invasion Wolves treated the conquered populations better than any other Invading Clan. Once they grasped the family dynamic, it was much like a change of flag among the Houses. It was part of the reason the Horses were welcomed when they invaded the periphery-side of the Wolf OZ. Vlad cracked down in the OZ when he became Khan because as he described in the Great Refusal debates, he felt the Inner Sphere culture could dilute the Clan culture.
Nothing in there remotely addresses my point.
Yeah it does, you are not reading those and using OOC Malvina knowledge. WE know her internal monologues about burning all of human space down and leaving the cinders for Cynthi . . . oops, that plan went awry when SHE was changed. None of that is EVER voiced publicly. There is little difference between Malvina's overzealous retribution for infractions and the Capellans executing RAF members, Republic government officials, placing 'invaders' (those relocated by Stone) in concentration camps and condemning them to the servitor class, as well as trying ANY Republic citizen of 'Capellan' heritage who did not properly embrace the resistance for perhaps capital crimes.
Daoshen was doing these things BEFORE Malvina was decanted- see orders to execute RAF prisoners during the 3080s combat or later Daniel Peterson & the Night of Screams on Liao. Shattered Fortress discusses Republic officials being summarily executed when captured on a invaded world . . . Malvina for all her faults was not doing that sort of thing as far as the universe at large knows.
Shattered Fortress, Pg 65 sidebar
And Danai's novel where she is administering a world per Daoshen's instructions.
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Is that really worse than being forced into a Clan's lower castes? At least a servitor can earn their way into higher privilege (to a point) and their children can become something other than what their parents were.
Plenty of RAF has been taking as bonds-people getting elevated to the highest caste from jump. The Clans would assign your initial caste based on your ability, rather than just dumping everyone into the laborer castes.
Malvina’s goal was to kill every human.
Speaking as Malvina's biggest fan (she's my favorite BT character), this is 100% accurate.
Do you have any sources to back this up?
Malvina has no problem using mass death as a tool of persuasion, or collective punishment as a means of control, but outright genocide isn't her style. She would have left the civilians alone provided they followed her vision unquestioningly. She might have had fantasies about ending all of humanity, but I too have been in line at the DMV. And there are plenty of natives left on the planets of the Falcon OZ.
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Do you have any sources to back this up?
Sure do. "A Rending of Falcons". She flat-out tells Cynthy that her endgame is to exterminate humanity entirely, including herself, and leave the ruins to Cynthy to reboot humanity if she chooses.
Outright genocide is absolutely her style.
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Sure do. "A Rending of Falcons". She flat-out tells Cynthy that her goal is to exterminate humanity entirely, including herself, and leave the ruins to Cynthy to reboot humanity if she chooses.
Do you have a page number by any chance.? I don't remember that and a search isn't helping.
And assuming it is there and in the correct context.
If I was an abusive step parent. That is exactly the sort of shit I would say to my step-kid. Her actions don't support her shit talking.
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It is not just that passage, she has a internal monologue with the same thing after Alek is killed- she seeks revenge on the universe for his death. And it was not until we got the novella . . . Anvil? about Coventry that Cynthi is abused . . . before that she was a pampered pet that Malvina doted on.
The point being no one else knows that, she knows she would lose her following if they thought she was full nihilism rather than going for Falcon dominance. She gets close to telling Becket Malthus that after lighting Horse grain fields on fire during a Trial and leaving her Elemental force to get wiped out so the fires truly catch before she leads her star against the rear of the vehicle star.
I hold to the contention that IF former RAF personnel know- and Shattered Fortress is a intel report FOR the RAF, thus bulletin board fodder- about Daoshen's actions in the former Republic worlds, he would be thought of as little better if not equivalent to Malvina. The little we see of Alaric's administration of Terra in HotW & ilClan is very different from what Daoshen would do.
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Do you have a page number by any chance.? I don't remember that and a search isn't helping.
I don't, but I know approximately where it was in the novel: just before she took off for Sudeten to fight Jana Pryde. She also mentions it in internal dialogue at the end of "Flight of the Falcon", after her defeat on Skye and learning of her brother's demise. That's the moment she snapped entirely.
If I was an abusive step parent. That is exactly the sort of shit I would say to my step-kid. Her actions don't support her shit talking.
They absolutely do. Malvina can't carry out her goals without first conquering everyone. She needs the manpower and machinery to make it happen.
And she wasn't being abusive in this novel. That came much later in publication, when Malvina's characterization shifted to make her physically abusive to Cynthy out of nowhere. Before that, she treated Cynthy completely differently, doting on her like a pet and literally killing anyone who looked funny at their relationship. Pardoe fundamentally did not understand Malvina or her relationship with Cynthy.
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And she wasn't being abusive in this novel. That came much later in publication, when Malvina's characterization shifted to make her physically abusive to Cynthy out of nowhere. Before that, she treated Cynthy completely differently, doting on her like a pet and literally killing anyone who looked funny at their relationship.
The Dark Age novels were not the best when it came to consistent characterization.
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The Dark Age novels were not the best when it came to consistent characterization.
Absolutely agreed. I notice it more and more with these new novels. One can really feel the disconnect, the shift between regimes, when it comes to consistent characterization.
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It was just the first 8 or so novels with that sort of problem which is also what happened to mess with Anastasia Kerensky . . . the only other one that was off really, was Stackpole's novel introducing Alaric but my issue there is not so much problems with that characterization vs later (b/c AK taught him some humility) but the fact checking . . . He wrote Wolf forces like it was the old 3050 Invasion- none of the legacy clusters (279th/328th/341st/352nd) stayed with the Crusaders yet those were the formations he reached for in that book.
The treatment of Cynthi was over at least 2 novels IIRC, Rending and Bonfire.
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I hated Masters of War so much. It took the very interesting formation and dynamic of the Wolf Hunters from their debut novel and... made them a generic merc force. Plus, as you mentioned, his extremely dated and inaccurate use of the Wolves' touman.
The disconnect I'm referring to is the gap between the original MWDA novel line and what we've been getting for the last few years. I only notice Malvina/Cynthy as being among the worst examples because they're characters I'm very invested in, so I tend to notice these things. I also noticed it a bit with Danai, but not as much. Not sure about any others because I don't tend to give a damn about them, but I'm sure there are more examples if I looked for 'em.
And if Anastasia taught Alaric some humility, it looks like that's been thrown out the window, too, because he's become more arrogant than ever.
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Eh, he is no longer a god striding among men . . . but yeah, there IS a disconnect Bonfire to current fiction . . . and it is all little details unfortunately, like the Mal/Cyn dynamic change. Julian is radically different from Fortress in Splinter. Jasek runs a Templar rather than a Templar III w/o any fangirls in his command, Roderick's Rifleman changes & no Frost or Steiner Strikers reference that I recall . . .
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IF the story had taken a turn for the worse and The Not Named Hazen's dark fantasy was exposed, and or she starting nuking planets into oblivion, I am sure she would survive long after that in the Inner Sphere, as she would have "everyone" after her, save for the WoB
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I hold to the contention that IF former RAF personnel know- and Shattered Fortress is a intel report FOR the RAF, thus bulletin board fodder- about Daoshen's actions in the former Republic worlds, he would be thought of as little better if not equivalent to Malvina. The little we see of Alaric's administration of Terra in HotW & ilClan is very different from what Daoshen would do.
The thing is though that Daoshen is doing what Capellans usually do when conquering a planet at least that is from what I understood of the Capellan caste mentality. Of course executing Hoimeguard and RAF soldiers who have surrendered is a big No No but the rest seems in line with typical Capellan thinking. Of course if he repeats stuff like the Nights of Screams during the Capellan crusades that might be something different entirely (and this in turn made Kai Allard-Liao into a berserker who had no compulsion in killing Capellans in cold blood or even rampaging through cities something the RAF loathes)
Also I find it funny that Malvina never got a taste of her own medicine. If I would have to defend against someone like her I would use every dirty trick in the book. Screw the Ares Convention the Falcons must die. The only time she got close to it was probably during Jotunheim and Operation Nighthawk and even then Deus ex machina saved her. The RAF should have made sure to stomp the cockpit several times after ripping it of her Mech.
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The thing is though that Daoshen is doing what Capellans usually do when conquering a planet at least that is from what I understood of the Capellan caste mentality. Of course executing Hoimeguard and RAF soldiers who have surrendered is a big No No but the rest seems in line with typical Capellan thinking. Of course if he repeats stuff like the Nights of Screams during the Capellan crusades that might be something different entirely (and this in turn made Kai Allard-Liao into a berserker who had no compulsion in killing Capellans in cold blood or even rampaging through cities something the RAF loathes)
Also I find it funny that Malvina never got a taste of her own medicine. If I would have to defend against someone like her I would use every dirty trick in the book. Screw the Ares Convention the Falcons must die. The only time she got close to it was probably during Jotunheim and Operation Nighthawk and even then Deus ex machina saved her. The RAF should have made sure to stomp the cockpit several times after ripping it of her Mech.
that's actually a good point, given Malvina's reputation she really should have just gotten nuked en route to landing
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Daoshen is going beyond the 'normal' Capellan action- consigning the populace to Servitors? yes. Executing opposing government officials? Nobles? I mean a big deal gets made of him executing Duchess Amanda Hasek, but we do not hear of any of the Capellan March officials kneeling on the platform with her. Or to anyone on Tikonov or Chesterton.
I would also note this is a escalating pattern with him . . . yes he had CCAF commands execute prisoners during the 3120s offensive, but not in 3080 when daddy was looking over his shoulder- nor was the CCAF taking action against Blakist Protectorate or Republic officials at that time. Heck, the Liao invasion of 3133? did not have Capellan troops executing government officials.
The god of Sian thinks there will be no repercussions and believes his propaganda more and more . . . former Republic citizens and troops know what Daoshen will do if they are in grasp.
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Daoshen is going beyond the 'normal' Capellan action- consigning the populace to Servitors? yes. Executing opposing government officials? Nobles? I mean a big deal gets made of him executing Duchess Amanda Hasek, but we do not hear of any of the Capellan March officials kneeling on the platform with her. Or to anyone on Tikonov or Chesterton.
I would also note this is a escalating pattern with him . . . yes he had CCAF commands execute prisoners during the 3120s offensive, but not in 3080 when daddy was looking over his shoulder- nor was the CCAF taking action against Blakist Protectorate or Republic officials at that time. Heck, the Liao invasion of 3133? did not have Capellan troops executing government officials.
The god of Sian thinks there will be no repercussions and believes his propaganda more and more . . . former Republic citizens and troops know what Daoshen will do if they are in grasp.
I tend to agree Daoshen is definatly escalating and will get worse and worse until he's stopped..
And by stopped I mean killed (or consigned to a room with padded walls for the rest of his life) I mean ordering the executions of surrendering troops? that's Malvina Hazen level nutso. and frankly I don't think things will end any better for Daoshen then it did Malvina. We saw on Terra Republic troops moving to surrender specificly to the wolves so they didn't get executed by Malvina, if that happens in the terran corridor against the cappies, Alaric could conquer entire worlds without a shot fired simply by "not being a blood thristy loon"
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I will put this here to avoid cluttering another thread . . .
Invasion Wolf Touman circa 15 Sept 3057 (pre-Refusal War)
Phelan's Task Force
Golden Keshik- boosted up to cluster level for Refusal War
4th Wolf Guards/Alpha
16th Wolf Guards/Delta
16th Battle Cluster/Gamma
279th Battle Cluster/Alpha
328th Assault Cluster/Alpha
Natasha's Task Force
Silver Keshik? 2 trinaries-
13th Wolf Guards/Alpha
352nd Assault Cluster/Beta
341st Assault Cluster/Beta
3rd Battle Cluster/Beta
11th Battle Cluster/Gamma
Ulric's Task Force
11th Wolf Regulars/Tau (F&W- Vlad's transfer)
21st Battle Cluster
4th Striker Cluster/Delta
2nd Wolf Cavaliers/Tau (F&W- Ulric's cluster?)
1st Wolf Cavalry/Tau (ObjRaids)
possible 5th Tau cluster if truly 'secondline'
Escorts to Arc Royal from Homeworlds per novel, overriding Obj Raids
Omega Galaxy- Keshik & 5 Clusters
Not involved per novel/SB-
9th Wolf Dragoons (Phelan's Trial of Position semi-final round)
26th Wolf Rangers/Delta (Obj Raids)
4th Wolf Guards Striker/Alpha (Obj Raids- does not fit naming conventions)
7th Battle Cluster/Gamma
Bronze Keshik/Gamma, 7 stars
Red Keshik/Delta, 7 stars
11th Wolf Guards/Delta
37th Striker Cluster/Delta
Green Keshik (2 trinaries)/Epsilon
Dorbeng Cluster/Epsilon
Choyer Cluster/Epsilon
Nega Cluster/Epsilon
Gurbeng Cluster/Epsilon
Plus 26 PGCs brought into OZ by Shower's permission*
Unnamed Home World secondline/garrison galaxy**
Confirmed- 3 keshiks and 36 confirmed clusters
*Per F&W pg 21, Tau Galaxy was newly created- it had been filled with Crusader transfers from frontline galaxies and IIRC based on novel mentions before that was filled with a lot of the 'new' warriors since the Wolves had not suffered the losses of other Clans since the Invasion. Therefore the 5 clusters of Tau do not draw from the 26 PGCs as Obj Raids suggests. Those 26 clusters were probably organized into Theta/Sigma/Iota/not-Omega as suggested by ObjRaids and another galaxy as Wolf secondline/garrison galaxies seem to have 5 clusters. Explorer Corps also lists Exodus Road garrisons, which was probably a task given to some/one of those PGCs.
**Omega was tasked with escorting assets from the Home Worlds to Arc Royal, no mention of Ulric stripping all the defenses from the Home Worlds. The post-Tukayyid understrength Jaguars had two garrison galaxies in the Home Worlds, surprising if the Wolves had less . . . though it could be 4 clusters, with the '26th' being theirs from organizational stand point. Now I had always read this as escorting the whole way, but if they met them in the periphery and escorted through the OZs, all we do is re-arrange the names and we still have 9-10 clusters with keshiks back in the Homeworlds and you just swap some names around. Unless you want to suggest the Wolves left no garrison in the Home Worlds.
Now FMWC details how most of Natasha's task force survivors made it off of Wotan with the 13th Wolf Guards maintaining command integrity to sweep up the remains. They brought parts of the 352nd and 341st along with 37th Striker which later went on to form the 2nd Wolf Legion. Problem with this is Natasha met with her Star Colonels on Twycross before she ordered them off world and it was only the 5 clusters I listed above as being present. IMO this is FASA realizing they left a LOT of Wolf units unmentioned in the Refusal War- a total of 15 get named with 5 being new, the Invasion had 17 frontline clusters & 4 garrison! I honestly ignore the touman listings in the back of F&W- FMWC does not refer to any of the units listed if they were not in WCSB, and IIRC the FMCC units are also hit & miss . . . and the Falcon entries also have problems.
To add to Warden Wolf strength Phelan also took Natasha's seriously injured when he left- noted that she was down 32% of equipment across her forces (5 clusters) but only 8% in personnel, the gap would indicate a decent number of wounded. Phelan also weakened the Warden Wolves by 'releasing' Clan warriors (see Explorer Corps for Tyra's wingmate bio). Just like the Crusader Wolves were left gimped, the Warden Wolf survivors were paired down . . . Golden Keshik (cluster size) & 5 clusters on Morges, 5 undamaged clusters of Omega, plus the survivors of the 5 or 6 clusters from Natasha and yet they have the Golden Keshik shrunk back down with 3 keshiks (2 trinary) & 9 clusters going into OP Bulldog.
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Two adds . . .
The Golden Keshiks 'could' have absorbed the other frontline Keshiks to get up to that strength for the Refusal War, leaving out the Naga stars from WCSB. This makes some sense because it would not compromise the 'quality' of the Golden Keshik while not pulling troops out of the frontline galaxies- that was already happening as Crusaders were shuffled about the touman so they could die in Ulric's task force.
And the Warden Wolves only had 2 Keshiks for FMWC since the 13th Wolf Guards was acting as that for saKhan Hall in Beta Galaxy. I was thinking of the eventual Beta Wolf Spider's Keshik in FMU. The overall strength is still low b/c it leaves off the remains of 6 or 7 Jaguar clusters the Warden Wolves fought in Bulldog outside of the intact 6th they gained.
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Phelan's Task Force
Golden Keshik- boosted up to cluster level for Refusal War
16th Wolf Guards/Delta Where is this from?
Green Keshik (2 trinaries)/Epsilon
Dorbeng Cluster/Epsilon
Choyer Cluster/Epsilon
Nega Cluster/Epsilon
Gurbeng Cluster/Epsilon
Plus 26 PGCs brought into OZ by Shower's permission*
Why do you assume that Epsilon, Omega, & Tau are not part of the total of 26 PGCs that the Wolves moved to the IS during OP:Revival?
They are listed in Objective Raids IIRC & the wording in the books of them being "new" or "from the homeworlds" can just mean "newly re-organized" and "returning from the homeworlds on escort duty" as you said.
Nothing says a unit cant change duty station more than 1x in 7 years.
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For the simple reason Tau (see pg 21) was 'newly created' before the Refusal War using the date of 30Sept3057. I THINK the novel covering the Refusal War also mentions it is created as a expansion post Invasion due to not taking casualties and the 'wealth' of the new territory. The novel is where Ulric confirms to Vlad that he transferred the hard core Crusaders from Natasha & Phelan's force so he could use them up. Epsilon was part of the Wolf's original Invasion forces, involved in the 5th Wave (PGCs were for garrison only) and on Tukayyid.
Omega, as I said, was said by Ulric to escort the Full Moon with the sibko selections and other material from the Homeworlds to meet Phelan at his orders. I said my interpretation was it escorted down the Exodus Road from the Homeworlds because it was a secret movement by Ulric and timed for Phelan's arrival in Lyran space. But that is based on a simple use of the language, it could have been escorted only part of the way- namely across the OZ which might be more likely b/c the travel time would match up with the duration of the Refusal War from bidding to Ulric's death. BUT it still raises the point- the Jags had two galaxies of 10 clusters IIRC (at least on paper) as their garrison in the Homeworlds . . . and the Wolves did not have comparative forces? Had no garrison at all? This was the whole point of the ** note.
16th Wolf Guards . . . eh, strike that I was flipping back and forth from PDF- 16th Battle Cluster from Gamma. Name was a bit off, but that is why it was not in the 'Not Involved' list. F&W pg 36 lists it as being included in Phelan's galaxy bid, 6 frontline clusters & 2 regiments against the Falcon's 5 frontline & 5 secondline clusters plus a solahma cluster.
Further, Objective Raids is notoriously bad at the fact checking- leaving off a whole major factory in FS space!- which is explained away as bad intel gathering for the report. Even later sources claim the Inner Sphere had trouble determining what Clan unit was in place, often mistaking clusters.
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I tend to agree Daoshen is definatly escalating and will get worse and worse until he's stopped..
And by stopped I mean killed (or consigned to a room with padded walls for the rest of his life) I mean ordering the executions of surrendering troops? that's Malvina Hazen level nutso. and frankly I don't think things will end any better for Daoshen then it did Malvina. We saw on Terra Republic troops moving to surrender specificly to the wolves so they didn't get executed by Malvina, if that happens in the terran corridor against the cappies, Alaric could conquer entire worlds without a shot fired simply by "not being a blood thristy loon"
The problem here is that Alaric's Wolves are just as bad. When they invaded Prefecture X they also killed RAF soldiers who had surrendered (though according to Shattered Fortress it depended on the Wolf commander). Of course Daoshen's orders during the Capellan Crusades were just as bad (executing RAF soldiers / Standing Guards should they not fight) The question will be who opens Pandora's Box first. Malvina is dead and it's a shame she didn't meet her end at the business end of a Mechs foot. So we have ruthless Wolves vs. fanatical Capellans. Not a very good prospect for the worlds of the former Republic.
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Sorry it is not the same . . . Daoshen executed POWs as a matter of policy- to be rid of Un/Non-Capellans, who are security risks and avoid the need to dedicate resources to guarding POWs.
This is not the same as rejecting a attempt to surrender (there is no right to surrender) or acting in response to a perceived violation of the 'rules' of war, what is known as reprisal. Reprisal is a simple policy, act this way or be punished. The Crusader Wolves expressed their displeasure with those they considered to be 'dishonorable' in battle in the most emphatic way possible as a lesson to those in the future.
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Sorry it is not the same . . . Daoshen executed POWs as a matter of policy- to be rid of Un/Non-Capellans, who are security risks and avoid the need to dedicate resources to guarding POWs.
This is not the same as rejecting a attempt to surrender (there is no right to surrender) or acting in response to a perceived violation of the 'rules' of war, what is known as reprisal. Reprisal is a simple policy, act this way or be punished. The Crusader Wolves expressed their displeasure with those they considered to be 'dishonorable' in battle in the most emphatic way possible as a lesson to those in the future.
“Depending on which Cluster or Trinary commander was on the scene, those RAF soldiers who surrendered were absorbed into the Wolf Empire’s touman, assimilated into the civilian castes, or executed.“
Shattered Fortress, page 85
That’s Wolves executing prisoners who surrendered. Not refusing surrenders. You might’ve had a point when discussing Alaric refusing to recognize the Silver Hawks surrendering to Lyrans and killing them to a man.
From a basic moral point of view, both are abhorrent actions with little sunlight between them. Trying to reframe it as some sort of honor code based thing is to try and hide the basic inhumanity of it.
Also, for what it’s worth, the Ares conventions established the right to surrender.
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A few things . . . first, the Ares Conventions have not been in force for centuries.
Second, the Wolves were never a signatory and thus are not bound by it even if it was in force.
Third, there is no right to surrender whatever lawyer fabrication is created. There are situations where a commander is making the correct moral and legal decision to execute prisoners as repugnant as some individuals may find it.
Fourth, the use of reprisal is implied in the laws of war as the only true mechanism to make an opponent give reciprocity. Laws of war is a relatively new phenomenon, at best in existence for 200 years (and only really codified for the last 125?) with the history before that point littered with examples of atrocity. Making it known that a side will repay treatment in the same manner it is given- barring the shooting at medical personnel being one of the early examples- cut down on the barbarity of war. One of the most extreme examples was the convention that developed in investing a fortification, where once a breach in the wall came about the garrison was given a chance to surrender as a whole.
Finally, the quote is not specific . . . are you talking about a single galaxy's practice? Wolf behaviors in a campaign? what happened in the battle for a contested world? I can think of a few instances where that sentence might have applied, by itself it means little and is just cherry-picked . . . what is the context of the single sentence?
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Finally, the quote is not specific . . . are you talking about a single galaxy's practice? Wolf behaviors in a campaign? what happened in the battle for a contested world? I can think of a few instances where that sentence might have applied, by itself it means little and is just cherry-picked . . . what is the context of the single sentence?
Your lengthy bit about morality being “we were terrible before, so it’s fine to be terrible forever” is… awkward. But my comment about the ares convention was off hand and not much of an effort. So yeah, doesn’t apply here.
As for the part I quoted. More at length:
“The two primary Wolf Empire thrusts targeted Denebola and Castor. On Denebola, rumors of Alaric Ward’s presence among the Clan Wolf warriors proved true this time. Alaric’s Silver Keshik led the Ninth Wolf Guard Striker and Seventy-ninth Wolf Battle Clusters into battle against the Fifteenth Principes Guards. Since the Wolves arrived at a pirate point, the Fifteenth’s conventional assets had little time to properly dig in along the lone approach to St. Cameron, so the RAF defenders were forced to fight on the move or risk being scattered. Alaric cast his net wide and surrounded the Fifteenth and its support elements. As he marched toward St. Cameron, his Wolves systematically destroyed the disorganized defenders. Depending on which Cluster or Trinary commander was on the scene, those RAF soldiers who surrendered were absorbed into the Wolf Empire’s touman, assimilated into the civilian castes, or executed.“
- Shattered Fortress, pg85
Wolf forces under Alaric’s command, shortly after the wall retracted. Shattered fortress is kind of all over the map on how wolves treat defeated units. Which, not a homogenous culture, so that make sense.
But the only times that wolves went out of their way to slaughter defeated troops appear to be when Alaric is directly in command. There’s a different planet, Alula Australis, where forces under his command slaughtered defenders functionally without quarter. It paints a picture where Alaric has what might be good plans and orders, but he’s unable to keep a clear head when he’s directly involved.
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As for the part I quoted. More at length:
“The two primary Wolf Empire thrusts targeted Denebola and Castor. On Denebola, rumors of Alaric Ward’s presence among the Clan Wolf warriors proved true this time. Alaric’s Silver Keshik led the Ninth Wolf Guard Striker and Seventy-ninth Wolf Battle Clusters into battle against the Fifteenth Principes Guards. Since the Wolves arrived at a pirate point, the Fifteenth’s conventional assets had little time to properly dig in along the lone approach to St. Cameron, so the RAF defenders were forced to fight on the move or risk being scattered. Alaric cast his net wide and surrounded the Fifteenth and its support elements. As he marched toward St. Cameron, his Wolves systematically destroyed the disorganized defenders. Depending on which Cluster or Trinary commander was on the scene, those RAF soldiers who surrendered were absorbed into the Wolf Empire’s touman, assimilated into the civilian castes, or executed.“
- Shattered Fortress, pg85
Wolf forces under Alaric’s command, shortly after the wall retracted. Shattered fortress is kind of all over the map on how wolves treat defeated units. Which, not a homogenous culture, so that make sense.
But the only times that wolves went out of their way to slaughter defeated troops appear to be when Alaric is directly in command. There’s a different planet, Alula Australis, where forces under his command slaughtered defenders functionally without quarter. It paints a picture where Alaric has what might be good plans and orders, but he’s unable to keep a clear head when he’s directly involved.
So this circles back around to #3, when there are times you execute those who surrender because you cannot guard them and because if they are released they can pose a danger to your troops such as giving away your position or being released due to not having time/personnel to guard, able to take up arms again possibly behind your lines.
And, to aid your point- there were other times Crusader Wolves did not take prisoners. IIRC it was a instance with the Thresher MK II wrecking some artillery used in a manner that was considered dishonorable. They wreck the artillery and the troops it was sheltering as a 'lesson' from their cultural stand point. I have not closely looked at the numbers, but there is ancedotal evidence that during the trench warfare of WWI machine gunners were rarely captured/surrendered.
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I've been doing a poor job keeping up with Shrapnel and some of the RecGuides, but can anyone think of any specific mentions of some of the iconic, solidly Wolf designs of recent vintage appearing in other factions? Things like the Wulfen, the Dominator, the Warwolf, etc. The designs that are only listed on the MUL for one of the Wolf flavors but may show up as a one-line reference in fiction. Thanks!
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I've been doing a poor job keeping up with Shrapnel and some of the RecGuides, but can anyone think of any specific mentions of some of the iconic, solidly Wolf designs of recent vintage appearing in other factions? Things like the Wulfen, the Dominator, the Warwolf, etc. The designs that are only listed on the MUL for one of the Wolf flavors but may show up as a one-line reference in fiction. Thanks!
Off the top of my head, EA does reference Foxes selling Wolf equipment from Terra. No specifics, but could easily include some Wolf specials.
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Was that the Wolf warrior on Solaris VII that was pissed the Foxes were selling stuff from Terra while he had retreads?
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I've been doing a poor job keeping up with Shrapnel and some of the RecGuides, but can anyone think of any specific mentions of some of the iconic, solidly Wolf designs of recent vintage appearing in other factions? Things like the Wulfen, the Dominator, the Warwolf, etc. The designs that are only listed on the MUL for one of the Wolf flavors but may show up as a one-line reference in fiction. Thanks!
It’s a lousy design, but the Bears have the Stormwolf on their MUL.
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Was that the Wolf warrior on Solaris VII that was pissed the Foxes were selling stuff from Terra while he had retreads?
Yeah. Letter from Star Captain Firuza. Empire Alone, page 64.
Confirmed it was wolf made, with rumors is was wolf made on Terra
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Dominions Divivded also had a short note that the Bear Khans who had visited Terra had made some research on Terra and they heard that Terra's factories are running around the clock (uhm where are the materials coming from?) which led them to believe that the Wolves were seriously damaged.
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Terra's factories are running around the clock (uhm where are the materials coming from?
Terra's resources are kind of schrodinger's resources, it is both bustling and empty at the same time :)
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Terra's resources are kind of schrodinger's resources, it is both bustling and empty at the same time :)
Terra is the big mystery planet in the BT universe: strapped for resources, remade into the planet it was before humanity had damaged it with crude industry, home to the most efficient factories humanity has ever seen. Also the planet that eats factions for breakfast
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I'm curious how much of the developments of the ilClan Wolf and Terra will show up in the next "field manual"/Scenario book, For the IlKhan Eyes Only book.
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I'm curious how much of the developments of the ilClan Wolf and Terra will show up in the next "field manual"/Scenario book, For the IlKhan Eyes Only book.
Since the only factions not covered so far is the Snow Ravens, Smoke Jaguars, the rest of the Jade Falcons, and Wolf I would say quite a bit.
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Dominions Divivded also had a short note that the Bear Khans who had visited Terra had made some research on Terra and they heard that Terra's factories are running around the clock (uhm where are the materials coming from?) which led them to believe that the Wolves were seriously damaged.
I imagine that the resources can be pulled from any of the other planets in the Sol system as well as the asteroid belt. From the original SL book it was shown that the Hegemony traded tech for resources with the other IS Houses but I imagine that if its just Terra the Wolves hold, and they really dont need much for several galaxies to be produced they can hit up the other planets & asteroids as well as resources from the Sea Foxes in return for finished products to sell.
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Since the only factions not covered so far is the Snow Ravens, Smoke Jaguars, the rest of the Jade Falcons, and Wolf I would say quite a bit.
The Capellans have not really been covered- their interaction with the MoC & Andurien, yes. But their own story? No.
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What if the Cappellans expulse the Wolves from Terra?
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What if the Cappellans expulse the Wolves from Terra?
Narratively fascinating as it creates a question of “is the ilClan who holds Terra, or just the first to get it” and seeing how clans decide on that. Also, break Alaric’s awful ego and proves to the universe he’s beatable.
Also, I find it really unlikely. Even my most pessimistic theories for wolves have them holding Terra at end of ilKEO.
The Capellans have not really been covered- their interaction with the MoC & Andurien, yes. But their own story? No.
I expect the focus on:
Terran Wolves
NuJags
Terran Falcons
Capellans
Also that can’t/shouldn’t be ignored:
Galatean League
Skye
DC
RotS and whatever happens to what’s left.
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Also, break Alaric’s awful ego and proves to the universe he’s beatable.
Already been done, was actually the introduction to his character.
The Isle of Skye is gone, gobbled up by the Falcons and Crusader Wolves though a few worlds on the Lyran border might have been free. Galatean League had gotten pounded and is probably defunct b/c Hansen's Roughriders were inside the Fortress training RAF and then defending Terra before they got out to the FedSuns with the Hansen we saw in Patriot's Stand being the new CO and a noble.
Whatever is left of RotS was addressed at the end of ilClan already.
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Also, I find it really unlikely. Even my most pessimistic theories for wolves have them holding Terra at end of ilKEO.
My shot in the dark guess is that the Capellans will jump into the Solar System on the last page of ilKEO. That would mirror the cliffhanger endings of Empire Alone, Dominions Divided, and of course Shattered Fortress.
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The Isle of Skye is gone, gobbled up by the Falcons and Crusader Wolves though a few worlds on the Lyran border might have been free.
According to the 3152 map on page 85 in DD, the Isle of Skye is still there.
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Already been done, was actually the introduction to his character.
Yeah. Getting caught by Anastasia. Whatever good that did him was gone by HotW. He was a self centered, arrogant human who believes he has no equals in existence. Even Stone wasn’t that bad.
The Isle of Skye is gone, gobbled up by the Falcons and Crusader Wolves though a few worlds on the Lyran border might have been free. Galatean League had gotten pounded and is probably defunct b/c Hansen's Roughriders were inside the Fortress training RAF and then defending Terra before they got out to the FedSuns with the Hansen we saw in Patriot's Stand being the new CO and a noble.
I’d agree on Skye, and even Galatea if not for the DD maps having Skye in it. It also had an unidentified border seen in the very edge that matches up with where you’d expect Galatean league. So seems like there’s more to that story. Even if “more” is that they survive because they border punch drunk Lyrans and Wolves and nobody has the spare bodies to hit them.
Whatever is left of RotS was addressed at the end of ilClan already.
ilClan really just says Galatea is flooded with ex-RAF. So, everything is there for the RotS for CGL to comfortably say “that’s it.” Which would be underwhelming and frankly, insulting to the fans (few as they are) of the RotS. (Not that fans of various factions haven’t had insulting ends to their favorites before.) They could also do something significant with what’s left. The unaccounted for troops amount to a larger standing force than any periphery nation besides Ravens or Magistracy. Shit. Represent a potentially larger standing army than the Wolf Empire has by the end of EA. For it to just evaporate would come off like CGL just saying they want RotS gone and don’t care how. Which, may be the case.
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It also had an unidentified border seen in the very edge that matches up with where you’d expect Galatean league.
The color used in that unidentified little bit on the 3151 DD map does match the color of the Galatean League used on the Inner Sphere map in FM: 3145.
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It's not unidentified. That's the Isle of Skye. The color matches the IoS in the map key.
Unless you mean the 3151 map... that one is odd, and there's no identifying color.
Nah. You see the area labeled Isle of Sky. Then, just up and left of the word “Summer,” there’s a border behind idle of skye. It’s right up on the edge of the map where the border doesn’t pop out far enough to show a faction color. Like Skye forms a crescent moon shape territory.
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Nah. You see the area labeled Isle of Sky. Then, just up and left of the word “Summer,” there’s a border behind idle of skye. It’s right up on the edge of the map where the border doesn’t pop out far enough to show a faction color. Like Skye forms a crescent moon shape territory.
That's the problem; we were looking at two different maps, LOL. That little border is very easy to miss, jeez!
So I just checked FM:3145, and it not only matches the right area of space, but the color used to denote the Galatean League in that book is the same color used in DD for the unidentified border, in the same spot as the 3152 map you're looking at, on the 3151 map in DD. Looks like the League is still up and running to me.
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Yeah. Getting caught by Anastasia. Whatever good that did him was gone by HotW. He was a self centered, arrogant human who believes he has no equals in existence. Even Stone wasn’t that bad.
You would think almost getting killed in Operation Nighthawk and then being bested by Tara would be enough to remind him to keep his ego in check. But nope next step is inciting a civil war within a Clan he asked to join and is then insulted that the result is not to his liking Which of course could also lead to his demise later on because no one said that he will be Ilkhan when the Star League is actually reborn (or whatever it will be called)
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You would think almost getting killed in Operation Nighthawk and then being bested by Tara would be enough to remind him to keep his ego in check. But nope next step is inciting a civil war within a Clan he asked to join and is then insulted that the result is not to his liking Which of course could also lead to his demise later on because no one said that he will be Ilkhan when the Star League is actually reborn (or whatever it will be called)
Why would his ego be in check right now? Alaric literally just fulfilled prophecy as far as the Clans go. He's basically a messiah figure. If anything, I expect his ego to be out of control right now.
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Yeah . . . let's see James McKenna, Aleksandr Kerensky, maybe Jerome Blake, not sure you could say Arian in '57, definitely Stone . . . and now Alaric. We are talking a VERY select group . . . 3 other men for sure, 2 with asterisks. Kind of hard NOT to be cocky . . . since the proof is in the pudding, and he DID deliver.
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The Capellans have not really been covered- their interaction with the MoC & Andurien, yes. But their own story? No.
Now rereading the new sourcebooks Lyrans on the Wolf Empire territory have had little mention especially the anti-Falcon resistance movement.
If there was more information about it I would appreciate the correction.
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Lyrans are in Tamar Rising, when they impact the FWL/Wolf Empire book they were mentioned.
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Why would his ego be in check right now? Alaric literally just fulfilled prophecy as far as the Clans go. He's basically a messiah figure. If anything, I expect his ego to be out of control right now.
I don't know Alaric gives me Nicolas Kerensky vibes and we all know how he ended: killed while he tried to intervene in a Mech duel. He basically died as a glorified referee. Might as well be the change once the new Star League is in place.
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Bit of a topic throwback, looking for some opinions on this sort of thing-
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/gargoyle-tc-what-do-you-build/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/gargoyle-tc-what-do-you-build/)
What would be your Gargoyle TC build?
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I don't know Alaric gives me Nicolas Kerensky vibes and we all know how he ended: killed while he tried to intervene in a Mech duel. He basically died as a glorified referee.
That's not the point. Whether or not Alaric will fail going forward doesn't matter (like it didn't matter with Nicholas, who despite the manner of his death is still glorified by the Clans as a messiah figure); the point is that he accomplished the thing that the Clans have been working towards for the entirety of their existence in publication, and thus his ego being out of control is to be expected.
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He's sacked Rome, now he just needs to go on a milk run and itll all be over.
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Bit of a topic throwback, looking for some opinions on this sort of thing-
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/gargoyle-tc-what-do-you-build/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/gargoyle-tc-what-do-you-build/)
What would be your Gargoyle TC build?
Keeping the TC and gargoyle vibes… Jump 5, pulse lasers and SRMs in each arm. TC if it fits. Not creative, but still feels gargoyle
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He's sacked Rome, now he just needs to go on a milk run and itll all be over.
CGL has been talking about giving major characters respectful deaths. The odds of him getting cockpit shot by jump jets are vanishingly small.
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CGL has been talking about giving major characters respectful deaths. The odds of him getting cockpit shot by jump jets are vanishingly small.
Culturally speaking, to a Clanner that would be a respectable death.
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Culturally speaking, to a Clanner that would be a respectable death.
During a defense of Terra or while leading an assault. Alaric accidentally getting turned into physics while refereeing a trial would be underwhelming.
Getting offed while refereeing and it turns out it was a planned assassination? At least then it’s potentially narratively significant. Though even that feels a bit underwhelming to me. As much as I don’t like him, whatever happens to Alaric should be significant to the setting.
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Bit of a topic throwback, looking for some opinions on this sort of thing-
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/gargoyle-tc-what-do-you-build/ (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/gargoyle-tc-what-do-you-build/)
What would be your Gargoyle TC build?
Keeping the TC and gargoyle vibes… Jump 5, pulse lasers and SRMs in each arm. TC if it fits. Not creative, but still feels gargoyle
1. Insert Gargoyle-D which is basically what I took the D for when it came out since it wasn't in TRO3050 but showed up in RS3060 w/ 3050 date on it IIRC.
2. If I'm actually making one from scratch, I'd go Rec-Guide on it for WYSIWYG on the Prime.
Twin ERPPC (Ammo Conservation), Twin Streak-6 (Ammo Conservation), Flamer (Anti-Infantry), and extra DHS to handle heat rush when the Streaks lock on.
It looses the V-Tol swatting but can still hurt vees in close & does a wonderful job of blowing holes in heavy armor at range.
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CGL has been talking about giving major characters respectful deaths. The odds of him getting cockpit shot by jump jets are vanishingly small.
I cannot believe Marthe was KIA in an "accident", she deserved more than that :'( (Unless she is quietly being kept on ice, and will make a glorious come back :thumbsup:)
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Finally, RS 3150 is released and we have the sheet for the Orion C. Considering its a weapons & armor swap/upgrade on the IS-spec Orion ON2-M, this is a fantastic upgrade for the 2nd line warriors that would get assigned to it. The more interesting comparison is the C to the C2. I still favor the C over the C2, but having a 3/2 or 4/1 mix of C to C2 in a star would be a good mix.
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Well, all the Empire and Skye ASF upgrades have finally shown up. Good hunting.
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That's not the point. Whether or not Alaric will fail going forward doesn't matter (like it didn't matter with Nicholas, who despite the manner of his death is still glorified by the Clans as a messiah figure); the point is that he accomplished the thing that the Clans have been working towards for the entirety of their existence in publication, and thus his ego being out of control is to be expected.
If/When Alaric pops his clogs, i can see it going rither messiah figure or an Icarus style cautionary tale, maybe a bit of both depending on a nation's outlook, the more warden clans pointing it out as a thing against being a Crusader and the the more Crusader clans holding him up as the pinnacle of Crusader-ness, it would be a more nuanced ending for him.
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I think when Alaric will fall it will be from the backlash from his unsavory actions during the ILClan trial. The book very strongly hints that he either killed Malvina Hazen
or ordered her death and that is very unclan like to kill a crippled warrior (not that it was a bad deciscion per se. Also triggering a civil war within the Dominion or him insulting the Dragoons which so far has cost him way more then he probably will acknowledge (if he even knows).
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I think when Alaric will fall it will be from the backlash from his unsavory actions during the ILClan trial. The book very strongly hints that he either killed Malvina Hazen
or ordered her death and that is very unclan like to kill a crippled warrior (not that it was a bad deciscion per se. Also triggering a civil war within the Dominion or him insulting the Dragoons which so far has cost him way more then he probably will acknowledge (if he even knows).
The key thing to me is that whatever happens needs to be in character for Alaric, not be character Assassination, be an at least somewhat dignified end (no angry other smothering a character with a pillow when they can’t fight back), and matter to the plot. Make his end some Greek tragedy where his virtues - once he peaks - become liabilities.
Alaric as a Khan constantly fought in the front lines. He’s supposed to be a tactical genius, so we can say that his leading from the front was key to his success. So, as ilKhan, have his constant need to lead from the front cause issues. He leaves and those left in charge don’t have the political skill to manage his “league.” Stuff like that.
We also see him believe he’s beyond being trialed. That seems like a key blind spot if his end is to be assassinated. He refuses a trial of grievance over [INSERT SOME REASON] and those challenging him attack as a group instead of what might’ve been a 1v1
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I think when Alaric will fall it will be from the backlash from his unsavory actions during the ILClan trial. The book very strongly hints that he either killed Malvina Hazen
or ordered her death and that is very unclan like to kill a crippled warrior (not that it was a bad deciscion per se. Also triggering a civil war within the Dominion or him insulting the Dragoons which so far has cost him way more then he probably will acknowledge (if he even knows).
He neither ordered Malvina's death nor killed her directly; her "pet" did and his team merely let it go as "she died from her Trial wounds." Alaric isn't generally innocent of things, but in this case, not on him.
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Alaric as a Khan constantly fought in the front lines. He’s supposed to be a tactical genius, so we can say that his leading from the front was key to his success. So, as ilKhan, have his constant need to lead from the front cause issues. He leaves and those left in charge don’t have the political skill to manage his “league.” Stuff like that.
So . . . Alexander the Great redeux? Works
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So . . . Alexander the Great redeux? Works
I’m hoping for Alaric I
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He neither ordered Malvina's death nor killed her directly; her "pet" did and his team merely let it go as "she died from her Trial wounds." Alaric isn't generally innocent of things, but in this case, not on him.
Really? Where was this mentioned? I didn't read Hour of the Wolf and IlClan just states something nebolous "Your secret is safe" This to me sounds as if alaric was somewhat part of Malvina's death and they also hinted that the Bears either bought the official line or just kept their findings close to their vest.
What makes me think that alaric stumbles upon his political moves stems more from the fact that he is descendant from Katherine. At first glance her manipulations were master strokes but they fell apart rather quickly once the truths came out or rather she gave in to her greed. Declaring basically war on the IS doesn't sound like a very measured approach. Just ask James Mckenna what happens when you try to conquer the entire IS
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Really? Where was this mentioned? I didn't read Hour of the Wolf
In HotW, lol. You really should read it; it'll give more context to ilClan, which is written as an in-universe document as opposed to an actual third-person account of events.
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There may be confusion over Malvina and Stone here.
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There may be confusion over Malvina and Stone here.
Alaric didn’t order either dead. Wasn’t responsible for either
Cynthia (?) shanked Malvina in the back and Stephanie Chistu let her bleed out
Chance Vickers murdered Stone because his explanation of his actions could potentially put question (in clan eyes) to Alaric Ward’s accomplishment if other clanners heard it and Alaric watched, stunned and unable to bring himself to act.
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So . . . Alexander the Great redeux? Works
I think he’s a garbage character that operates on plot armor and contrivance, but I’m also against authors with an ax to grind engaging in petty character assassination.
I want Alaric gone, but I want his way out to be caused by his actions and for his actions to be in character.
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Lol, you think he has plot armor because you ignore everything before the recent run of novels . . . or really novellas because they are so short.
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I'm not ashamed to admit this, but I want to like Alaric. Actually, no... I want to love him.
On paper, what an incredible character: a fusion of the best (and the worst) of Victor and Katherine Steiner-Davion, created in a way that only the Clans could (and, more importantly, would) really pull off, and who ultimately accomplished what many of us Clan fans never really ever thought was on the table by taking Terra and giving us an actual ilClan, thereby changing the landscape of the BattleTech universe and ushering the metaplot into truly uncharted territory. Unfortunately, due to the fact that BattleTech's direction has shifted behind the scenes two or three times since his debut as a character, Alaric has suffered from some of the most inconsistent writing in the fiction, to the point where I think it's hard to really define him as a character.
On top of that, I can't deny that Church has a point about Alaric, and Clan Wolf in general, having plot armor. Anyone who says that Alaric hasn't had at least a few Gary Stu moments is absolutely deluding themselves. And anyone who's been following the Clans since their debut in the franchise knows that Clan Wolf has always driven the narrative, has always gotten the coolest moments (that showdown at the Kerensky Bloodchapel in WoR was incredible and y'all know it) and has always been the most "flexible" in how they get things done. The second I saw the title and synopsis of "Hour of the Wolf", I knew how it would end. (Sidenote: I knew my favorite character in BattleTech wouldn't make it out of HotW alive, but at least BLP gave her one last fateful duel with my other favorite character in BattleTech AND it was the cover of the book, so that was something.)
But there's a bigger part of me that, as a Clan fan in general (and someone who enjoys seeing status quo shake-ups!), wanted to see the Wolves come out on top. The Clans, most especially the Wolves, have been sitting in their OZs since the 90s in real-time doing nothing but fighting each other and their neighbors but not actually making progress towards the reason for their invasion to begin with. As a Clan fan, this is as good as it's likely to ever get as far as plot progression goes. I couldn't be more excited to see where things go next.
So even though it grates my nerves a bit, I have to give Alaric and his Clan a pass on all of this. It's just a shame that I can't enjoy it more completely because I don't really like Alaric.
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Lol, you think he has plot armor because you ignore everything before the recent run of novels . . . or really novellas because they are so short.
If I could ignore Children of Kerensky and Hour of The Wolf, Alaric isn’t all that bad. He’s insufferable as a person and arrogant, but capable enough to warrant some of the arrogance. He got knocked down a peg by Anastasia and that helped him. It’s clear in novels and sourcebooks that he has issues keeping a clear head when things start to feel personally dangerous to him. He was an… okay?? character. His plot armor wasn’t so much on the personal level, but more the typical “oh look, Wolves once again drive a huge chunk of the narrative and keep winning” typical Wolf DA plot armor
But CoK and HotW were trash fires that, as his defining novels now, turned the character into a poor joke. Maybe whoever writes the next novel focused on him can turn that around and make him a better character again. I won’t call him irredeemable. Just… he, as most recently written, is not a good look as the defining character of the franchise.
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Here's hoping Alaric gets a Clone Wars treatment in the future. What's that you ask, well in Star Wars in Episodes II and III I disliked Anikin and really didn't care for the character and his change to the Dark Side wasn't fleshed out well. But in the Clone Wars animated series which took place between those two movies there was much more room to explore the character, made him much more likable and better set up the changes that would take place in Episode III.
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Here's hoping Alaric gets a Clone Wars treatment in the future. What's that you ask, well in Star Wars in Episodes II and III I disliked Anikin and really didn't care for the character and his change to the Dark Side wasn't fleshed out well. But in the Clone Wars animated series which took place between those two movies there was much more room to explore the character, made him much more likable and better set up the changes that would take place in Episode III.
Yeah. Clone wars Anakin is the actual big hero character who’s fall is tragic. Wildly different from movie Anakin.
Alaric doesn’t really need that level of fixing. Really, all we need the next novel focusing on him just to not write him as a plot warping, setting shattering Gary Stu as CoK/HotW did and get him closer to the DA novels Alaric. That alone will do wonders.
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Yeah. Clone wars Anakin is the actual big hero character who’s fall is tragic. Wildly different from movie Anakin.
Alaric doesn’t really need that level of fixing. Really, all we need the next novel focusing on him just to not write him as a plot warping, setting shattering Gary Stu as CoK/HotW did and get him closer to the DA novels Alaric. That alone will do wonders.
Every time I hear these complaints it reminds me of two things . . .
First, the WHOLE BTU is 'fiat' as nothing would exist if it was not written.
Second . . . a post on the boards longer ago (and thus interations) than I care to think about. A review written on some of the history of WWII as if it was part of a fiction book, where the reviewer complains of the impracticable and 'Gary Stu' moments in the 'book' - just how impracticable events like Overlord were using the usual complaints.
I have my own issues with how Alaric is changed in the recent books, and IMO it is the depth of loss where we do not see any reflecting on Katherine/Victor/Vlad as we did in the MWDA novels & Bonfire. Nor was Verena ever mentioned, which was a pivotal moment in his life- he sacrificed alliances and political power to be monogamous to her.
Alaric literally thinks that he could silence some of his critics if he slept around to be more 'Clan-like' but even though he KNOWS that is the pragmatic move, he cannot bring himself to do it.
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First, the WHOLE BTU is 'fiat' as nothing would exist if it was not written.
Second . . . a post on the boards longer ago (and thus interations) than I care to think about. A review written on some of the history of WWII as if it was part of a fiction book, where the reviewer complains of the impracticable and 'Gary Stu' moments in the 'book' - just how impracticable events like Overlord were using the usual complaints.
There’s a difference between “devs decide Wolves are to take the actions to become ilClan” and “devs decide Wolves are to become ilClan, regardless if wolves actually have what it takes to be ilClan.”
As per comparing Terra to WW2… insert the obligatory “fiction has to make sense, reality doesn’t.” It’d be one thing if during a critical moment, Wolfes pull out some major trick and decisively defeat a superior force. Whether that’s through misinformation, superior maneuvers in the field, defeat in detail… anything like that. Wolves can then use the momentum from that to decisively push their campaign forward.
That didn’t happen in HotW. Save sort of for when they countered Blue Heron. Every fight was effectively “Wolves attack RAF position or army, numbers don’t matter, wolves always win.” Shit, even the author admitted as much. I’ve tried to make sense of that book and it only works if you throw any pretense of tech quality, unit sizes, unit experience, past performance, and basic reasonable assumptions like “RAF has a superheavy doctrine” and just go with “this is the vibe I want for this battle.”
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There are disagreements as to when Alaric becomes ugh, but I think that it is largely agreed that he has robbed something from his Clan in the process. A similar issue had smitten the Capellan fanbase, with a dated thread about it.
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There’s a difference between “devs decide Wolves are to take the actions to become ilClan” and “devs decide Wolves are to become ilClan, regardless if wolves actually have what it takes to be ilClan.”
As per comparing Terra to WW2… insert the obligatory “fiction has to make sense, reality doesn’t.” It’d be one thing if during a critical moment, Wolfes pull out some major trick and decisively defeat a superior force. Whether that’s through misinformation, superior maneuvers in the field, defeat in detail… anything like that. Wolves can then use the momentum from that to decisively push their campaign forward.
That didn’t happen in HotW. Save sort of for when they countered Blue Heron. Every fight was effectively “Wolves attack RAF position or army, numbers don’t matter, wolves always win.” Shit, even the author admitted as much. I’ve tried to make sense of that book and it only works if you throw any pretense of tech quality, unit sizes, unit experience, past performance, and basic reasonable assumptions like “RAF has a superheavy doctrine” and just go with “this is the vibe I want for this battle.”
Going all in on Terra and bringing along the Falcons to take down the Republic was the trick. However, winning in the Mechlab, leaders to a dull series of slow rolling stomps to cripple the RAF. It's just that sort of victory makes for something of a dull story. That sort of win also doesn't require Alaric actually be a genius to anyone outside the cult of personality. Just a leader who was willing to risk the existence of his faction in order to take one planet.
I personally like the metaplot of 3145-3151, but I also think that CGL picked the wrong person to execute the core arc of that fiction.
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I personally like the metaplot of 3145-3151, but I also think that CGL picked the wrong person to execute the core arc of that fiction.
100% agree with this sentiment.
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I personally like the metaplot of 3145-3151, but I also think that CGL picked the wrong person to execute the core arc of that fiction.
Written by someone else, i could have been a lot more accepting of wolf taking Terra. I still think as written, even with the Falcons, there wasn’t enough for anything better than maybe a Pyrrhic victory.
Schmetzer in Redemption Rites showed you can write a lopsided series of battles while making the losing side still get meaningful hits in and act intelligently and keep the book engaging. He might’ve found a way to write a much more compelling and believable loss on Terra. Also, possibly treated the death of a faction that’s been in the setting for 2/3rds of the game’s lifespan with some gravitas and not “lol, good riddance.”
The general meta plot of the Republic falling and Wolf’s ascension to ilclan isn’t a problem or inherently bad thing. I object to the execution.
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Alaric's proposal to move Clan Wolf from the chains of an OZ became a universe defining move for MWDA. The continued focus on Terra was well in character, but he radically changed Clan thought. By contrast, I think that the Republic's footprint will be minor by comparison for the long term of Battletech, should the franchise live on for decades to come.
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Alaric's proposal to move Clan Wolf from the chains of an OZ became a universe defining move for MWDA. The continued focus on Terra was well in character, but he radically changed Clan thought.
I don't see much difference between that and, say, the Ghost Bears (and later other Clans) ditching the Homeworlds wholesale and moving to the Inner Sphere.
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Alaric's proposal to move Clan Wolf from the chains of an OZ became a universe defining move for MWDA. The continued focus on Terra was well in character, but he radically changed Clan thought. By contrast, I think that the Republic's footprint will be minor by comparison for the long term of Battletech, should the franchise live on for decades to come.
He didn’t really change clan thought. Archon Melissa Steiner proposed the plan. Khan Seth Ward agreed and asked three commanders how to move Wolf to a new home. Alaric’s plan was accepted. It is worth noting that the idea to frame it as a move against the RotS was his. The other two plans didn’t add that. I think that was in Masters of War.
And if the Republic’s footprint ends up small, it’s because the Devs decide it to be so by never fleshing out the Jihad with novels and deciding RotS is well and truly done in ilclan. We don’t know if either of those are true yet. Though the RotS being done in ilclan part seems likely. Still, given the massive contrivance allowed to resurrect Jags, if devs want RotS around, it’ll be around.
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I don't see much difference between that and, say, the Ghost Bears (and later other Clans) ditching the Homeworlds wholesale and moving to the Inner Sphere.
The Bears transplanted their civilian population and what infrastructure they could to worlds they already owned with far better conditions for all. This required the development of assets like the Leviathan warship with the quiet help of the Ravens. Furthermore, they saw the peoples of their worlds as family, and adopted them, trying to create an integrated working government. The Bears pioneered a change in thought which influenced other Clans.
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By contrast, the Wolves have made the only essential asset of the Clan their Warrior Caste, and whatever is needed to maintain it is fungible when not essentially an arm of it to begin with. They can change worlds and abandon people freely, without remote coercion.
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By contrast, the Wolves have made the only essential asset of the Clan their Warrior Caste, and whatever is needed to maintain it is fungible when not essentially an arm of it to begin with. They can change worlds and abandon people freely, without remote coercion.
See, this doesn’t come off like “oh cool, wolves evolved.” It comes off like plot armor.
A couple thousand people (warrior caste plus “necessary civilian caste”) (I think the total has changed by a lot over time, unsure what it is now) with moved into a region of a 130 systems, took over, converted the factories to clanSpec, raised an entire house army worth of extra troops within a decade, and - as far as I know - had no problems with any of that while the majority of the local population actively hated them.
Meanwhile, Hell’s horses expanded their realm by 30 worlds in 12 months and are forced to slow down to consolidate gains while using a Suzerain approach and generally being welcomed after the shitshow of Wolf and Falcon rule.
It’s hard to buy into that insane level of difference in ease of doing things.
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Written by someone else, i could have been a lot more accepting of wolf taking Terra. I still think as written, even with the Falcons, there wasn’t enough for anything better than maybe a Pyrrhic victory.
{snip move}
The general meta plot of the Republic falling and Wolf’s ascension to ilclan isn’t a problem or inherently bad thing. I object to the execution.
Authorship side. I feel ilClan / HotW ended too soon, with what is shaping up to be a 3-4 year gap before the story moves on. It needed more denouement, more telling us what the Wolf victory meant, what changed, not just that it happened. The ending we did get was just too neat and tidy for the amount of upheaval happening to three major factions.
Schmetzer in Redemption Rites showed you can write a lopsided series of battles while making the losing side still get meaningful hits in and act intelligently and keep the book engaging. He might’ve found a way to write a much more compelling and believable loss on Terra. Also, possibly treated the death of a faction that’s been in the setting for 2/3rds of the game’s lifespan with some gravitas and not “lol, good riddance.”
Schmetzer spent time and effort to make Othar into a sympathetic character. BLP portrayed the Republic and Stone like 1945 Germany.
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Authorship side. I feel ilClan / HotW ended too soon, with what is shaping up to be a 3-4 year gap before the story moves on. It needed more denouement, more telling us what the Wolf victory meant, what changed, not just that it happened. The ending we did get was just too neat and tidy for the amount of upheaval happening to three major factions.
Schmetzer spent time and effort to make Othar into a sympathetic character. BLP portrayed the Republic and Stone like 1945 Germany.
BLP engaged in character assassination because he openly hated a faction and in his own words demanded its death to be in the plot. The historical comparison to 1945 Germany is insanely sketchy at best and incredibly condescending to anyone who actually liked the faction.
But also, yes, HotW was too little for the story told. Rock of the Republic and Children of Kerensky needed to be about Terra as well. Your 100% right that a book ending with “wolves won,” “falcons are devastated by their long term enemies and now love Alaric,” and “let’s end a faction that may never get more page time that the author despises by smothering it with a literal pillow,” and “the end” wasn’t well ended
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See, this doesn’t come off like “oh cool, wolves evolved.” It comes off like plot armor.
A couple thousand people (warrior caste plus “necessary civilian caste”) (I think the total has changed by a lot over time, unsure what it is now) with moved into a region of a 130 systems, took over, converted the factories to clanSpec, raised an entire house army worth of extra troops within a decade, and - as far as I know - had no problems with any of that while the majority of the local population actively hated them.
Meanwhile, Hell’s horses expanded their realm by 30 worlds in 12 months and are forced to slow down to consolidate gains while using a Suzerain approach and generally being welcomed after the shitshow of Wolf and Falcon rule.
It’s hard to buy into that insane level of difference in ease of doing things.
That was foreshadowing. The Wolves picked up and moved their entire war infrastructure once. So they know how to do it, when they do it again as they move from the Empire to Terra. Just imagine of thick and heavy the plot armor would feel if the Wolves moved from their original OZ directly to Terra to kickoff the ilClan.
I feel like its also worth pointing out that the Wolves did all of there relocations in partnership with the LA, Sea Foxes, and maybe the Falcons while the Horses were attempting to do everything on their own. The Horses also stopped as much by disagreement on where to put there attention (Falcon OZ or Terra) as anything else.
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Given what happened to Horses after events of failed invasion of Sudeten, with their old Khan removed afterwards. I wonder how the Horses will be acting after 3152 towards the Wolves?
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Given what happened to Horses after events of failed invasion of Sudeten, with their old Khan removed afterwards. I wonder how the Horses will be acting after 3152 towards the Wolves?
My personal preference is to have them still hold the same general outside position, just be more active about it. With the RecGuides they've picked up a bunch of older Omni production. Kick those into high gear and start their own empire expansion program. They may not be able to take out Jiyi's Falcons right away but they could pick up some of those unclaimed worlds and start taking border worlds from other powers around them
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a fusion of the best (and the worst) of Victor and Katherine Steiner-Davion
The moment I found about that fact in Bonfire was the moment I knew I would be predisposed against Alaric.
To me, Kat is the face of nearly everything that was objectively bad surrounding the Civil War era.
And Vic is the face of parts of BattleTech that I subjectively do not like, though the man himself is not that bad.
Yes, yes, sins of the parents and all that, but I'm biased.
That he then absorbed the Exiles, my favorites since the MW2 days, only made it worse.
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That he then absorbed the Exiles, my favorites since the MW2 days, only made it worse.
That writing was on the wall the moment they decided the understrength Clan would not try to grow/use the sibkos they started in '58.
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That writing was on the wall the moment they decided the understrength Clan would not try to grow/use the sibkos they started in '58.
I'm also a fan of the Exiles and the fact that they never seemed to grow (at least not compared to the other IS Clans) really bothered me.
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When could they have grown really?
Ulric didn't give them sibkos for the entire clan, just a slice of the pie, enough to fill in battle losses.
They moved in 57, saw constant low level fighting till the Jihad, & then saw major fighting right?
I mean, outside of Stone's Peace Tech era, when could they ever sit back & just "train" up a ton of new warriors?
And when was anyone but Liao "growing" their army during the Republic era?
I'm assuming the Falcons were a constant annoyance on that border that left them w/ enough action to keep skills sharp but also losses that would need a small but steady trickle of replacements.
Not that it's impossible, just pointing out that you need more Cannisters first, then you need more nursemaids for the newborns/toddlers, then you need more Teachers for the Elementary years, then more Drill Sgts for when they start military training.
And you only have a small population to work with, unless they start assimilating a bunch of the Arc Royal population to handle a lot of those duties.
Finally, assuming you start graduating more trained warriors you need Mechs. And while they had a factory complex, they didn't have "free" resources nor did they have much to trade on other than clan tech trained Techs to rent out, but the clans don't really seem big into "renting" out their people as a whole. (Raven Warships aside)
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. . . Stone's Peace Tech era, when could they ever sit back & just "train" up a ton of new warriors?
You answered your own question.
Also 'their' sibkos SHOULD have been coming on line in '76 if they were tested at 18, though I might expect some advanced testing a year or two early. The planned sibkos should have been massive as it would be the time to get the Warden Wolves back on their feet. While Phelan 'released' warriors that made it to Arc Royal if they wished, they should have had more than they ended up with in FMWC and after Op Bulldog & Audacity, something like the remains of 13 clusters of Jags & Falcons. The Wardens also adopted Spheriods into the Clan- the Brahe bloodname came from somewhere.
After the Jihad the Falcons were dealing with the Kell Hounds, Dragoons, and Exiles on that front and had Horses behind them . . . never mind that in the mid-70s they were going to be dealing with the aftermath of the Hellions spite fit.
We also know they HAD those numbers, but chose not to grow the touman- see Alexa & Verena Wolf among others departed the touman for opportunities or having failed their Trials of Positions wanted to be warriors. We see warriors retire from the touman to join the tech and other castes, then become warriors again when Mad Malvina starts her games.
The economics are not the problem- you are right that manpower is their limiting factor.
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My frustration is they basically stayed the same the whole time. FM Warden Clans - 11 Clusters + 3 Trinaries of Keshiks. FM Updates - 12 clusters + 3 Trinaries of Keshiks. FM 3085 - 10 Clusters + 3 Trinaries of Keshiks. FM 3145 - 6 Clusters + 3 Trinaries of Keshiks. It just seemed like not much changed, add 1 cluster here, drop one there.
Meanwhile the Crusader Wolves and Jade Falcons, both recovered from the Refusal War almost instantly between the Harvest Trials, graduating sibkos early, adding garrison level warriors, etc. If the Wolves in Exile were supposed to be helping defend the Falcon border, why wouldn't they have found a way to expand the touman, to take over more border worlds (even going out toward the periphery), etc. While the other clans had things going on, it seems like the Wolves in Exile were just sort of forgotten.
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I am glad the Lyran Commonwealth gets no choice in the growth of an alien group within their borders. Perils of being a pet Clan. You exist at the whims of the host.
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The Lyrans were not in a choice to express their opinion before or after the Jihad. The Wolves put Peter on the throne and after the Jihad the Archon was dealing with Archonettes . . . nvm that the land was given by the Grand Duke of Arc Royal.
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Different states have different values and institutions. The Lyran Commonwealth has an office, the Archon, who in theory plays second fiddle to none, but in practice can be entrapped politically. Katherine Steiner-Davion about admitted as much concerning the Arc Royal Defense Cordon. When able, a competent Archon will try to smash any remote political opposition, including through the use of LOKI teams. A naive "Enlightened" Archon could create a Dark Age scenario for the Commonwealth.
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This thread is as good a place as any.
Hour of the Wolf and IlClan mentions Wolf’s Fury cluster, which has basically nothing on it. Is that one introduced in HotW, or does it get introduced elsewhere?
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This thread is as good a place as any.
Hour of the Wolf and IlClan mentions Wolf’s Fury cluster, which has basically nothing on it. Is that one introduced in HotW, or does it get introduced elsewhere?
The appearance in HotW describes it as a new cluster, that had already proved its worth in the battle for Perth. It was commanded by Star Colonel Iain Sender and that's it for HotW and ilClan.
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The appearance in HotW describes it as a new cluster, that had already proved its worth in the battle for Perth. It was commanded by Star Colonel Iain Sender and that's it for HotW and ilClan.
Yeah. I didn’t see it in shattered fortress, was wondering if there was a different novel it came up in
This question is just a curiosity. I just remembered it was a thing and was curious.
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Well, Anastasia's farm teams had to end up somewhere . . .
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Upcoming Releases mentioned the second Brush Wars release will include the Refusal War along with the Absorption and Hegira Wars. This makes me a bit nervous about what they are going to do to it . . . unlike those other two conflicts we know exactly which clusters the Wolves had involved (most frontline clusters) and which were not (all the secondline except Omega- IMO Tau is not 'secondline' due to changes) and which worlds in what order. The Falcon & Wolf scenario book spelled out the units and had a map . . . granted we did not get coverage of a world or two for each of Ulric & Natasha spearheads, but between the scenario book & novel coverage it is perhaps the best laid out war of the 6 they mention.
What I WOULD like is knowing where some of the players from the WCSB that survived Tukayyid met their end . . . FREX the ilKhan's Shadow, Erik Kerensky . . . or Star Colonel Marco of the 37th that the FRR hates and sent a regiment out on a search & destroy sweep . . . I also would like to know about those worlds that had Trials not covered in existing materials except they happened. Or how Daphne Vickers (or of the Vickers at that time?) ended up with her Turkina. A scenario where Star Colonel Sender of the 352nd (or 341st?) covered the retreat of Natasha's survivors off Wotan with the 13th Wolf Guards' Star Colonel Marco Hall.
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the Absorption and Hegira Wars.
unlike those other two conflicts we know exactly which clusters the Wolves had involved (most frontline clusters) and which were not (all the secondline except Omega- IMO Tau is not 'secondline' due to changes)
What I WOULD like is knowing where some of the players from the WCSB that survived Tukayyid met their end . . . FREX the ilKhan's Shadow, Erik Kerensky
A scenario where Star Colonel Sender of the 352nd (or 341st?)
1. What are the Absorption & Hegira Wars respectively?
2. I think the bigger issue with F&W SB was the names, lots of odd ball names & clusters in the wrong touman, etc etc.
Tau was 2nd line, in 3055, but, that doesn't mean they didn't have some Omnimechs & by the time Ulric was done w/ his ReOrg the "Tau" of the Refusal war included most of Delta Galaxy which WAS front line regardless.
Personally I like the odd ball names because it gives you room for a larger Clan Wolf full TO&E which explains how they are the top clan (In addition to Skill).
#s v/s Skill is a debate........ #s & Skill is WIN.
3. Erik survived Refusal didn't he? He was in the FM Series of 3060+ I thought.
My guess is he was recovering from wounds & then had an admin position. See below.
4. Sender was 341st. 352 was the above Erik till he was removed Post-Tukayyid, probably do recover from wounds since he's listed as KIA but shows up in 3060.
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What are the Absorption & Hegira Wars respectively?
The Absorption War is another term for the Burrock Absorption. The Hegira War was where the Falcons dropkicked the Vipers out of the Inner Sphere.
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2. I think the bigger issue with F&W SB was the names, lots of odd ball names & clusters in the wrong touman, etc etc.
Tau was 2nd line, in 3055, but, that doesn't mean they didn't have some Omnimechs & by the time Ulric was done w/ his ReOrg the "Tau" of the Refusal war included most of Delta Galaxy which WAS front line regardless.
Personally I like the odd ball names because it gives you room for a larger Clan Wolf full TO&E which explains how they are the top clan (In addition to Skill).
#s v/s Skill is a debate........ #s & Skill is WIN.
Ulric's spreadhead had Tau Galaxy and clusters from Delta & Gamma- he had more troops than Natasha (5) once Phelan split off. BUT they were transferring Crusaders from the frontline clusters (5) that went with Phelan. Tau is also where all the new blood after Tukayyid losses were replaced went- oddly enough, the ability to build a new galaxy with a keshik & 5 clusters while the other Clans were still struggling to replace losses while taking losses from raids across the Truce line is what sparked the genocide charge (If they had just been raiding the known Falcons build up in '54-'56 . . . ).
I would have to check my chart for references BUT I thought Natasha's 5 clusters were . . . 12th Wolf Guards, 279th, 341st, 352nd, and 7th? Everything she had in her spearhead was grounded at Twycross and she has a meeting in her tent with all 5 of the commanders the night before battle. She had 'Alpha' even if F&W called it 'Beta' since they flipped the designation between Khan/saKhan plus a Gamma cluster. Ulric had the 5 Tau plus 2 Deltas & 1 Gamma IIRC.
Just using Tukayyid and leaving out the theoretical of each Wolf frontline galaxy having 4 clusters while secondline/garrison had 5 . . . we had frontline clusters missing.
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The Absorption War is another term for the Burrock Absorption. The Hegira War was where the Falcons dropkicked the Vipers out of the Inner Sphere.
Thanks, I was thinking that was what was meant but I've never heard those terms specifically for those events.
I also wasn't sure if maybe it was Absorption WarS and would be covering all of the clan Absorptions of the past.
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BUT they were transferring Crusaders from the frontline clusters (5) that went with Phelan. Tau is also where all the new blood after Tukayyid losses were replaced went-
the ability to build a new galaxy with a keshik & 5 clusters while the other Clans were still struggling to replace losses while taking losses from raids across the Truce line is
1. It's important to remember that was happening across ALL the galaxies & clusters.
The way I read it was that Ulric was selecting each Cluster based on what it contained the most of.........
Wardens (Phelan), Young (Natasha), Crusaders (Ulric)
It seems like he went below cluster level to move groups of warriors around, but I can't confirm that.
It seems odd that a cluster would be 100% of any of those 3 options above, so you would want to split it up, but, we also know that troops ended up in places later that they didn't fit in. (IE. A lot of Wardens behind w/ the old Wolves, and Phelan getting a few Crusaderish folks)
Getting too deep into moving people would likely ruin experience at the last minute.
2. We've discussed this before.
I never saw it as creating a fully new galaxy from scratch.
We know it existed before the Refusal War.
What it did get was a full reshuffle, reorg, rename. Thus becoming "new"
But its not like the 5 clusters were 100% off the line new factory mechs. The unit existed.
Ulric just warped it from Tau 2nd Line Galaxy into the Tau Combined Status "Spearhead" filled w/ "Most" of the Crusaders in the Touman in the form of Clusters from Tau, Delta, & some stragglers. Which was closer to 2 full galaxies in strength.
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#1 A bit off, Natasha also had the old Wardens which is why she had her 13th Wolf Guards and a lot of the flagship Invasion clusters. During the Invasion Alpha was Warden, Beta was shifting due to saKhan Garth Radick, Gamma had Mikel Furey who reads as a Crusader in WCSB but leadership is Warden, and then you get Delta with Conal Ward which is the Crusader stronghold among frontline forces. Galaxy Commander John Ward who took over for Conal with his 'disappearance' after Tukayyid is a Warden though and morale supposedly improved in the galaxy. I would say that Phelan ended up with younger Wardens, Natasha had older Wardens and maybe some Supremacists, and Ulric had a lot of the Crusader, Crusader leaning young, and Supremacists. Omega joining Phelan probably had more Wardens, young warriors, and freebirths.'
We can absolutely confirm Ulric, Natasha, and Phelan moved at least individuals around- Vlad was removed from his Delta cluster and re-assigned to a Tau cluster IIRC. But with Gamma and Delta clusters assigned to Ulric's spearhead- and per FMCC & FMWC STILL Delta or Gamma clusters, I would not expect them to have Crusaders transferred out. Weeding out Crusaders from Phelan's clusters makes the most sense- but remember, some warriors left the Warden Wolves after Phelan's announcement of the death of Ulric.
The whole reason the genocide charge came up and Wolf politics shifted with the creation of the Supremacists was the Invasion Wolves took relatively few losses compared to the other Invaders, were not engaged in the constant trials in the Homeworlds as the Clans were before the Invasion, were not engaging in trials with neighboring Bear/Falcon/Viper OZ, and were not getting too many raids from the IS across the Truce line. The Wolf OZ had a narrow frontage compared to both the Bears and the Viper/Falcon OZ and being split between FRR/FedCom put them at the edge of those factions' deployment/logistics making the Wolves, along with their reputation, less of a target.
So with the Trial of Position graduates of '53/54/55/56 and start of '57 (giving all of '52 when they eventually got to the IS as replacements) the Wolves could have very well built 5 new clusters . . . now they would not be staffed by all those new warriors, but it would have provided some rank growth though mostly among secondline warriors. Comes down to the question, do you want to be a regular Mechwarrior in Alpha Galaxy or become a Star Commander in a secondline galaxy? Most of those regular mechwarriors are going to stay in Alpha/Beta/Delta/Gamma after having fought their way into those slots. IMO the officers of any 'new' clusters are going to have Star Commanders & Star Captains promoted mostly from secondline formations while you get a even split on odds of the Star Colonel being a frontline Star Captain wanting to advance. We see Tau appear in '55 though none of the forces listed in that sourcebook have any strengths given, so all of the secondline forces could have been understrength to draw off the cadre for the new Tau forces- and that book & WCSB give us enough frontline clusters to give the Wolves 4 clusters in each frontline galaxy.
Material-wise? We know the Wolves were pulling from what remained in their caches, and since they won on Tukayyid did not take the material losses like most of the other Clans. Further they made a deal with the Snow Ravens that had the Ravens re-activating a production facility to produce Clint IICs to sell full runs to the Wolves. While the Sharks were known during this period to raid the Invader's supply lines along the Exodus Road, the Wolves are not noted to suffer material losses enough for any SB entries. Later sources discuss how the Invaders are economically/materially beyond the Homies due to the influx of raw materials and production, even if it is not as advanced as Clan production. And the Wolf growth is not a 1-off . . . the Falcons recovered enough from material losses on Tukayyid to start staging supply dumps very far forward in their OZ despite the frequent FedCom raiding across the Truce line, I think they had a harder time replacing personnel losses. The Ghost Bears used re-supplying into the OZ as a cover for shifting to the Inner Sphere, finishing their Leviathans even if they used them as transports. Even the Jags managed to build a new galaxy . . . although in their case it meant throttling the replacement warriors & equipment to existing units in the OZ, though some like the 6th Jaguar Dragoons were given full support. Vipers, and to a lesser extent the Cats, are unknown due to not being covered as well.
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Just want to add: didn't the wolves even under their Warden leadership not rebuild any military factories within their OZ despite some prominent planets like New Oslo, Rasalhague or Tamar? I know they relied on a very sophisticated supply chain which saw them shipping raw materials to the homeworlds and retunred with finished Mechs and so on. i knowthey would have to upgrade those factories (which would be a long process as the Bears and Falcons found out) but that might have been at least a nice supplement for their Garrison and trainign forces.
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Just want to add: didn't the wolves even under their Warden leadership not rebuild any military factories within their OZ despite some prominent planets like New Oslo, Rasalhague or Tamar? I know they relied on a very sophisticated supply chain which saw them shipping raw materials to the homeworlds and retunred with finished Mechs and so on. i knowthey would have to upgrade those factories (which would be a long process as the Bears and Falcons found out) but that might have been at least a nice supplement for their Garrison and trainign forces.
The Invasion Wolves were using existing factories (do not recall the vehicle one the Bears took over) but under Vlad/Crusader Wolves they stopped any refurb or just held them in place. Tamar had IIRC a Gargoyle factory and maybe one or two others, but they got lost during the Scouring by Blakists. While the Invasion Wolves might have started some of the projects I do not think they were in a rush though Vlad opposed building in the IS. I think the way it is stated, he was fine with the trade off in efficiency for the security/keeping factories from the IS powers. For most of the 3050s and early 3060s you probably had re-furb points, like the Falcons, where Invasion salvage was either stripped for parts or rebuilt to be C models- Atlas C, Shadow Hawk C, etc.
I would also imagine the Invasion Wolves' material losses from Tukayyid were also made up from equipment with a 'Made on Huntress' stamp, Sharks would do a brisk trade at the Periphery edge trading acquired equipment for raw resources.
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Just want to add: didn't the wolves even under their Warden leadership not rebuild any military factories within their OZ despite some prominent planets like New Oslo, Rasalhague or Tamar? I know they relied on a very sophisticated supply chain which saw them shipping raw materials to the homeworlds and retunred with finished Mechs and so on. i knowthey would have to upgrade those factories (which would be a long process as the Bears and Falcons found out) but that might have been at least a nice supplement for their Garrison and trainign forces.
All Wolf factories were either shipped from the Homeworlds or built from the ground up. I remember reading that the Hells Horses, when taking Wolf territory in and around 3145 wanted to reactivate (not modify or repurpose) several abandoned factories. I imagine by 3160 the Hells Horses may see a lot of Inner Sphere C models in their touman (even if it’s their second line forces)
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The Crusader Wolves stripped the factories in the mid-3130s when they migrated to the FWL/LC border, those were the ones the Horses were re-furbing. The Crusaders took everything but the physical plant- IE, they took dies and machine tools but left the concrete platforms the machines were mounted on. Taking the automated mounting equipment, but left the power/pneumatic lines in the building's walls/floors in place . . . that sort of thing.
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Just want to add: didn't the wolves even under their Warden leadership not rebuild any military factories within their OZ despite some prominent planets like New Oslo, Rasalhague or Tamar? I know they relied on a very sophisticated supply chain which saw them shipping raw materials to the homeworlds and retunred with finished Mechs and so on. i knowthey would have to upgrade those factories (which would be a long process as the Bears and Falcons found out) but that might have been at least a nice supplement for their Garrison and trainign forces.
All Wolf factories were either shipped from the Homeworlds or built from the ground up. I remember reading that the Hells Horses, when taking Wolf territory in and around 3145 wanted to reactivate (not modify or repurpose) several abandoned factories. I imagine by 3160 the Hells Horses may see a lot of Inner Sphere C models in their touman (even if it’s their second line forces)
The Crusader Wolves stripped the factories in the mid-3130s when they migrated to the FWL/LC border, those were the ones the Horses were re-furbing. The Crusaders took everything but the physical plant- IE, they took dies and machine tools but left the concrete platforms the machines were mounted on. Taking the automated mounting equipment, but left the power/pneumatic lines in the building's walls/floors in place . . . that sort of thing.
I think your talking about 2 different factory types.
MG is talking about the original FRR factories that were making Archers, Pixies, & Panthers, AFAIK.
CJ/Colt are talking about the actual Clan Wolf factories imported from the Homeworlds &/or Built in the OZ.
I've never heard of the Wolves doing anything w/ the captured FRR factories, especially since IIRC the FRR had been trying to relocate some of them during the invasion as well.
They just sort of got gobbled up & never rebuilt/used for anything, I think.
Though I'd have loved to see an Archer-IIC, Pixie-IIIC, & Panther-IIC being used as Garrison Mechs the way the Bears started making 2nd line mechs in their OZ before they even were working on Omnis.
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I've never heard of the Wolves doing anything w/ the captured FRR factories, especially since IIRC the FRR had been trying to relocate some of them during the invasion as well.
They just sort of got gobbled up & never rebuilt/used for anything, I think.
Though I'd have loved to see an Archer-IIC, Pixie-IIIC, & Panther-IIC being used as Garrison Mechs the way the Bears started making 2nd line mechs in their OZ before they even were working on Omnis.
Thanks for the clarificationp I have managed to read some of my sources and a few factories were captured intact but the Wolves still left them “to rot”. I would like to see more “C” variants of Inner Sphere products. I may be a minority but seeing a Wolf Trap C would be cool, in the majority (if I’m wrong I apologize) the Wolfhound IIC as a more common mech would be nice.
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I may be a minority but seeing a Wolf Trap C would be cool, in the majority (if I’m wrong I apologize) the Wolfhound IIC as a more common mech would be nice.
If only the Jags/Cats had managed to take Luthien you might have gotten one, hehe.
With Arc Royal hosting the Exiles, I'm sort of surprised that we didn't get a IIC production line.
I'd have loved to see an Archer-IIC that blended the 5R & the Jamie Wolf model into a clan tech 2nd line mech for Wolf units. Those 2 have similar weapon loads.
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I have to admit that I have my suspicions about the ARC-2Rbs mentioned in RecGuide 10.
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Did not that model come up in some discussion of Arcturus?
I also seem to recall the Invasion Wolves had started, and the Crusaders had allowed to continue, refitting on a factory located on a former FRR world. The world ended up lost to the Bears as part of the fall out of Roar of Honor when Dirk Radick led a cluster to jump a trinary. Also, the Crusaders put the Locust IIC . . 4? 6? into production in the OZ.
Anyway, to go back to the earlier question . . . lack of OZ production due to Vlad's personal whims was supposedly why the Crusader Wolves had a lot of standard mechs in production during and for decades after the Jihad. To the point, IIRC, they were not producing a single Omni from a factory (TWs were being hand built off parts) . . . it was Night Wolf, Tundra Wolf, Blood Reaper, Sun Cobra, and Locust IIC. They had just started putting Omnis back into production when they set up to move- War Wolf, Tomahawk II, and Wulfen though I think RecGuides retcon'd to have them building the Gargoyle again during the 'no-Omnis' period.
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Did not that model come up in some discussion of Arcturus?
I also seem to recall the Invasion Wolves had started, and the Crusaders had allowed to continue, refitting on a factory located on a former FRR world. The world ended up lost to the Bears as part of the fall out of Roar of Honor when Dirk Radick led a cluster to jump a trinary. Also, the Crusaders put the Locust IIC . . 4? 6? into production in the OZ.
Anyway, to go back to the earlier question . . . lack of OZ production due to Vlad's personal whims was supposedly why the Crusader Wolves had a lot of standard mechs in production during and for decades after the Jihad. To the point, IIRC, they were not producing a single Omni from a factory (TWs were being hand built off parts) . . . it was Night Wolf, Tundra Wolf, Blood Reaper, Sun Cobra, and Locust IIC. They had just started putting Omnis back into production when they set up to move- War Wolf, Tomahawk II, and Wulfen though I think RecGuides retcon'd to have them building the Gargoyle again during the 'no-Omnis' period.
The Wolves likely saw the Falcons and Jaguars getting raided by IS forces and didn't see the need to move heavy duty factory production into their IS worlds. The Gargoyle came about b/c one of the versions of TRO3050 listed a Gargoyle factory on Tamar. Later it was reworked into a refit facility, almost a hand-built facility.
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Was that the Gargoyle? I know the Timber Wolf got that line in TRO3050 b/c Steve was for ever on about that until they said they built the TWs by hand in the OZ. The Gargoyle facility and other production on Tamar was supposed to be normal but got wrecked by the Blakists. I will admit I did not keep up with Crusader production that much in the first place.
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The Wolves likely saw the Falcons and Jaguars getting raided by IS forces and didn't see the need to move heavy duty factory production into their IS worlds. The Gargoyle came about b/c one of the versions of TRO3050 listed a Gargoyle factory on Tamar. Later it was reworked into a refit facility, almost a hand-built facility.
Was that the Gargoyle? I know the Timber Wolf got that line in TRO3050 b/c Steve was for ever on about that until they said they built the TWs by hand in the OZ. The Gargoyle facility and other production on Tamar was supposed to be normal but got wrecked by the Blakists. I will admit I did not keep up with Crusader production that much in the first place.
Agreed, I think it was the T-Wolf that was doing low #s, mostly added there because, IIRC it was pointed out that the Crusader Wolves, OG T-Wolf creators/users were no longer making it & the 3 factories were WiE, Homeworlds, & D-Sharks (Timby-4/Savage Wolf). So they ended up getting a small line.
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Yeah, now I think that was it. Hand-built Timbys, full factory Gargs.
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Sorry for the confusion. Yes I meant the first invasion when the wolves cut the Republic and parts of the commonwelath to shreds. I never read much about the wolves refurbishing or even using the factories in Rasalhague space. when the jihad hit they had at least some clanspec factories as the sourcebook mention that the attack of the Blakist attacks wiped out anewly build Gargoyle factor (pretty sure it read Gargoyle). from Wars of Reaving there is amnetion that the Bears and Falcons began to use the factories in their OZ which was a painstaken process to adapt Is factories to Clan specs (though the Falcons used IS-equipment for their garrison units like for example the Battlemaster). Meanwhile the wolves let the factories in their OZ to rot while senindg huge convoys laden with material to their OZ. Which tunred against them when the Horses stampeded into their OZ during the jihad as this cut the wolves off from their supplies and even worse they had to empty their last caches before their first new factories came online. In Masters & minions there is a mention of a Swedenborg factory on New Oslo that was captured half finished by the Wolves during their first invasion and then was left unfinished. This factory was rebuild under Vlad Ward but the Horses captured New Oslo depriving the Wolves of a vital factory.
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Not quite true . . . the Falcons did not have the factories refurbished in their OZ until the 3060s and the non-Clan gear they were using was captured during their Incursion during the FCCW- the Battlemaster 4S plant when they took Pandora. They did nothing with the factories on Twycross, it was left to the Sharks when they took the world which were re-tooled. The Falcons did set up re-furb/salvage yards where captured IS equipment was either stripped for parts or rebuilt for garrison machines as it was or as Cs.
Have to remember the Invasion Wolf leadership had, really, 5 years running the OZ and comparably the Falcons did not have the factories back online during that time either. After that it was Vlad making the calls, and he hated/distrusted the Spheriods. The Crusader Wolves also lost some of the factories they had worked on- Dirk Radick's attempt to jump a single trinary with his cluster let the Bears take several worlds, one of which was a factory world IIRC.
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it is from Wars of Reaving and I think it was the report of the Star League ambassador. The date was 3066 I believe so at that point the Falcons were actually using IS factories. i think some examples would be the Sprite, the Pinion and even Sudeten-build Fire Falcons and Turkinas. Though Clan warriors were distrustful of IS-build Turkinas at that point.
Also, didn't the Falcons also build a new version of the Locust IIC in their own OZ? I would have to check those TRO's again though. Though I would think that prior to Marthes ascension they also neglected their captured Is factories. I know the Bears did that which nearly bankrupted Joint Equipment Systems.
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The Locust IIC 4 IIRC, the Crusader Wolves had their own version being built in their OZ too though it might have been a bit later.
Yeah, it basically comes down to 3050s no real word about captured IS factories . . . 3060s we start seeing them used/converted.
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Thanks for the reminder.
Falcons built the IIC-4 (HSL)
Wolves built the IIC-5 (ATM), but, the Bears took one of those worlds, & IIRC the other falls to the Horses eventually.
It was odd because neither location made Locusts prior to that. They made Panthers at both with Pixies & Archers at one.
So I guess Vlad did authorize some use of those locations.
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I would expect the Locust IIC factory conversions were already underway in the 3050s, but Vlad decided on the mech or switched to that mech . . . a light garrison machine would fit with his keeping as much out of reach of spheriods as possible. Especially a machine that compliments the Lobo he authorized.
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I believe Project Phoenix mentions that the Locust was chosen because it was easier to create at IS factories.
Now why that is, who knows, its a fluff thing since clearly the game stats show its stuffed w/ clan tech.
I'm betting it was chosen because its an older design that used well known technologies.
But in turn the 2 variants use the newest tech weapons at the time, so it's kind of an odd bit of fluff.
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In 3057 Clan Wolf has the following OZ factories in various states of repair. Note the Satalice production had just been relocated from New Oslo.
Satalice Gorton, Kingsley, and Thorpe Enterprises Archer ARC-5R
Satalice Gorton, Kingsley, and Thorpe Enterprises Panther PNT-10K
Satalice Gorton, Kingsley, and Thorpe Enterprises Phoenix Hawk PXH-3K
Rasalhague Gorton, Kingsley, and Thorpe Enterprises Mechbuster
By 3067 that is
Tamar WC Site OZ-2 Elemental Battle Armor
New Oslo Manufacturing Site #3 Locust IIC 5
By 3075
The Tamar WC Site OZ-1 Man O' War (Gargoyle) existed after 3068 but was destroyed in the 3070 Scourging of Tamar.
Dell Dell Aerospace Industriplex Components Generic
Tamar W-8 Facilities Lobo
Tamar W-8 Facilities Lobo 2
Tamar W-8 Facilities Sun Cobra
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Locust IIC 4
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Locust IIC 6
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Zorya Light Tank (ATM)
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Crimson Hawk 3
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Guillotine IIC
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Guillotine IIC 2
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Highlander IIC
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Highlander IIC 2
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Orion IIC
Wolf Orbital 82 Fleet Base
By 3085
Dell Dell Aerospace Industriplex Isegrim Assault DropShip
Tamar W-8 Facilities Lobo
Tamar W-8 Facilities Lobo 2
Tamar W-8 Facilities Lobo 3
Tamar W-8 Facilities Sun Cobra
Tamar W-8 Facilities Tundra Wolf
Tamar W-8 Facilities Tundra Wolf 2
Tamar W-8 Facilities Tundra Wolf 3
Tamar W-8 Facilities Tundra Wolf 4
Weingarten Bluefin Technologies Baleena Passenger Submarine IIC
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Ares Medium Tank (Plasma)
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Ares Medium Tank
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Badger (C)
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Bandit (C) Hovercraft
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Blood Reaper 2
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Blood Reaper
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Carnivore Assault Tank (HAG)
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Carnivore Assault Tank (Second Line)
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Carnivore Assault Tank
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Elemental Battle Armor
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Locust IIC 4
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Locust IIC 6
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Mad Cat (Timber Wolf)
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Night Wolf
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Undine Battle Armor
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Undine Battle Armor (Upgrade)
Weingarten W-7 Facilities Zorya Light Tank (ATM)
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Clan Medium Battle Armor "Rache"
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Crimson Hawk 3
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Guillotine IIC (Standard)
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Guillotine IIC 2
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Highlander IIC (Standard)
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Highlander IIC 2
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Highlander IIC 3
Weingarten Refit - W-7 Facilities Orion IIC (Standard)
Wolf Orbital 82 Fleet Base Repairs
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Do the wolves have any rituals like the clawing or branding?
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Not that I am aware of, though they can use real Strana Mechty wolf fur for . . . the leathers? cape? been a while since I read that bit.
WCSB had some galaxy traditions/initiations but who knows if those survived the Refusal War. Alpha had their thing, I want to say Delta learned about a historical unit, could display their insignia/colors and buried their first opponent on the battlefield . . .
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Not that I am aware of, though they can use real Strana Mechty wolf fur for . . . the leathers? cape? been a while since I read that bit.
WCSB had some galaxy traditions/initiations but who knows if those survived the Refusal War. Alpha had their thing, I want to say Delta learned about a historical unit, could display their insignia/colors and buried their first opponent on the battlefield . . .
Interesting!! Thanks for the quick reply ^_^
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Do the wolves have any rituals like the clawing or branding?
Yes and no.
From the Wolf Clan Sourcebook:
Alpha Galaxy members wear a strip of synthetic Wolf fur on the left shoulder of the uniform/dress cape just for being posted to Alpha. There's also a ritual for real wolf fur instead of synthetic. Called the "Wolf Rite", 5 candidates are chosen and dropped off mid-winter into the snowy forests of Strana Mechty wearing only briefs and given a hunting knife. The team of 5 must steal a fresh kill from a pack of wolves and carry it back to base camp (100km). The Clan watches the broadcast of the team. Those who die are honored by having their names painted onto the hull of the warship Dire Wolf. Those who are successful can use real wolf fur instead of synthetic and earn the title of KinWolf. As of WCSB, only 53 active warriors have the title.
Gamma Galaxy warriors each receive the patch of a famous SLDF unit. They are to learn the history of that unit as well as that of their immediate superior as well as that of the galaxy commander.
Delta have a ritual called the Bloodstart. This occurs for a warrior's first confirmed kill. If time & battlefield conditions allow, the warrior is taken to the place where the enemy warrior was killed. A small portion of blood is wiped across the warrior's brow, then the warrior is expected to bury his fallen foe. Afterwards the warrior is expected to make restitution to the fallen warrior's next of kin (kind of unusual in Clan situations).
Field Manual Crusader Clans say Vlad tossed aside all the Galaxy-specific traditions since they clan was been recreated.
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Ah, I combined Gamma and Delta . . . but yeah, I figured that was what happened to them. The Warden Wolves did not maintain them . . . then again, they did not do much to support continuity.
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Yes and no.
From the Wolf Clan Sourcebook:
Alpha Galaxy members wear a strip of synthetic Wolf fur on the left shoulder of the uniform/dress cape just for being posted to Alpha. There's also a ritual for real wolf fur instead of synthetic. Called the "Wolf Rite", 5 candidates are chosen and dropped off mid-winter into the snowy forests of Strana Mechty wearing only briefs and given a hunting knife. The team of 5 must steal a fresh kill from a pack of wolves and carry it back to base camp (100km). The Clan watches the broadcast of the team. Those who die are honored by having their names painted onto the hull of the warship Dire Wolf. Those who are successful can use real wolf fur instead of synthetic and earn the title of KinWolf. As of WCSB, only 53 active warriors have the title.
Gamma Galaxy warriors each receive the patch of a famous SLDF unit. They are to learn the history of that unit as well as that of their immediate superior as well as that of the galaxy commander.
Delta have a ritual called the Bloodstart. This occurs for a warrior's first confirmed kill. If time & battlefield conditions allow, the warrior is taken to the place where the enemy warrior was killed. A small portion of blood is wiped across the warrior's brow, then the warrior is expected to bury his fallen foe. Afterwards the warrior is expected to make restitution to the fallen warrior's next of kin (kind of unusual in Clan situations).
Field Manual Crusader Clans say Vlad tossed aside all the Galaxy-specific traditions since they clan was been recreated.
Awesome!! Thanks!! Also boo vlad,boo.
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Yes and no.
From the Wolf Clan Sourcebook:
Alpha Galaxy members wear a strip of synthetic Wolf fur on the left shoulder of the uniform/dress cape just for being posted to Alpha. There's also a ritual for real wolf fur instead of synthetic. Called the "Wolf Rite", 5 candidates are chosen and dropped off mid-winter into the snowy forests of Strana Mechty wearing only briefs and given a hunting knife. The team of 5 must steal a fresh kill from a pack of wolves and carry it back to base camp (100km). The Clan watches the broadcast of the team. Those who die are honored by having their names painted onto the hull of the warship Dire Wolf. Those who are successful can use real wolf fur instead of synthetic and earn the title of KinWolf. As of WCSB, only 53 active warriors have the title.
Gamma Galaxy warriors each receive the patch of a famous SLDF unit. They are to learn the history of that unit as well as that of their immediate superior as well as that of the galaxy commander.
Delta have a ritual called the Bloodstart. This occurs for a warrior's first confirmed kill. If time & battlefield conditions allow, the warrior is taken to the place where the enemy warrior was killed. A small portion of blood is wiped across the warrior's brow, then the warrior is expected to bury his fallen foe. Afterwards the warrior is expected to make restitution to the fallen warrior's next of kin (kind of unusual in Clan situations).
Field Manual Crusader Clans say Vlad tossed aside all the Galaxy-specific traditions since they clan was been recreated.
One extra bit of followup I missed b/c it's hidden under the uniforms category in FMCC. For the Crusader Wolves, the honor of wearing real wolf fur was changed to bloodnamed warriors designated as worthy by the Khan or saKhan. Such warriors had to stalk and kill a Strana Mechty Wolf single-handedly using only the weapons they could fashion themselves in the wild. I'm not sure how this was updated after the Wars of Reaving.
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I would guess the Wolves took example of the Strana Mechty wolf with them. Like the Nova Cats and Ghost Bears took examples of their totem animals to their OZ's. Though wherte they release them is anyone's guess.
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It continues to gall me that the Horses are bootlegging the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf, that they have just begun producing them out of factories that should have (per FM3145) been stripped of their mech-specific tooling, or in the case of the dire wolf, I think it's a factory that may not have existed prior to this. This is not the clan way, there was no trial for the right to produce these designs, they are engaged in the dezgra behavior of simply churning out copies of a machine they desired. Really seems like the Wolves ought to be dispatching someone to issue a trial of some sort (Grievance? Possession?) over the design rights violation.
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This is not the clan way, there was no trial for the right to produce these designs, they are engaged in the dezgra behavior of simply churning out copies of a machine they desired. Really seems like the Wolves ought to be dispatching someone to issue a trial of some sort (Grievance? Possession?) over the design rights violation.
The Clan way is as much about "if you're strong enough to take it, it's yours until someone takes it (back) from you" and "if you aren't strong enough to hold what you have, you don't deserve to have it" as it is about some nebulous design rights concept that we've precious little of in canon. If it was dezgra, why would the Wolves bother stripping the factories down in the first place when they could just say "okay, now initiate a Trial for the right to produce these designs"? If the Wolves didn't want someone swooping in and retooling the factories, they should've destroyed them completely. I'd say that by abandoning the factory, they abandoned their rights to whatever they produced.
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I'd say that by abandoning the factory, they abandoned their rights to whatever they produced.
That sounds pretty Clanlike to me; the Wolves didn't want it anymore and left it behind. It's up to whoever the last man standing is to take it over.
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The Clans (allegedly) abhor waste, so the fact that the Hell's Horses picked up and recycled trash the Wolves threw on the side of the road elevates the former over the latter really.
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. . . some nebulous design rights concept that we've precious little of in canon.
It is all over the place and why the 3050 mechs were given specific producers in 3050U, why we hear Clan X trialed Clan Y to produce the design. As he mentioned, the Dire Wolf itself has a complicated initial story.
BUT . . . I will go with your abandon theory as well . . . otherwise the Savage Wolf Falcon vs Fox story would not have come about as much.
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It continues to gall me that the Horses are bootlegging the Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf, that they have just begun producing them out of factories that should have (per FM3145) been stripped of their mech-specific tooling, or in the case of the dire wolf, I think it's a factory that may not have existed prior to this. This is not the clan way, there was no trial for the right to produce these designs, they are engaged in the dezgra behavior of simply churning out copies of a machine they desired. Really seems like the Wolves ought to be dispatching someone to issue a trial of some sort (Grievance? Possession?) over the design rights violation.
So what’s your take on all the inner sphere designs wolves produced without any trials to acquire rights to produce them? Or your take on when Foxes sued wolves over design elements when the Amarok ripped off the hammerhead? Or the wolves using Capellan stealth armor on the alpha wolf? Or the wolves using the horses’ interface cockpit for the ryoken III?
Horses took the world. Horses managed to put together the lines and produce the Timber Wolf. Out of universe, does it feel weird that Horses make it? Sure. But in universe they did what it took to get it. Sometimes that means bloody conquest, sometimes it’s being opportunistic
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Horses took the world. Horses managed to put together the lines and produce the Timber Wolf. Out of universe, does it feel weird that Horses make it? Sure. But in universe they did what it took to get it. Sometimes that means bloody conquest, sometimes it’s being opportunistic
In a way, it's no different than what the Clans did in the Homeworlds during the Wars of Possession when they were seizing former Jaguar holdings. The holdings were abandoned (albeit because of Annihilation and not because they decided on a change of address), and another Clan came in to take possession of them. The Jaguars weren't strong enough to hold onto their things, and the Wolves weren't strong enough to hold onto theirs. Simple.
I also think it ignores that these aren't the Clans of 3050, either. We've had a century of drastic cultural evolution sweeping amongst the Clans, to the point where it's fair to ask "What even is dezgra anymore?" And the answer is the same as it's always been: dezgra is whatever the accusing side can say it is and can make it stick. If the Wolves want to take umbrage to it, they certainly can, but I think they have quite enough on their plate as it is.
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If abandoned production lines were rebuilt by a new owner, then clearly whoever rebuilt them earned the right to produce them.
...This newest discussion is a pretty interesting way to bump a thread!
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Clans hate waste. It would be wasteful to destroy said factories, it's not the way of the Clans. They would remove key important and vital components however.
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I give you another example: after the SLDF had wiped out the Jaguars other Clans picked Huntress clean. for example the Scorpions took over the production facilities on Abysmal and began producing new variants of certain Mechs.
Or another example: the Foxes began producing new versions of the Timber Wolf but under a new name: Mad Cat MK2 and Mad Cat MK 3
On another note:
The Dragoons "abducted" a sibko which was made out of Alaric's genes and they even planned to send some those to the other Clans (excuding the Jaguars and Falcons) while using the rest as candiates (maybe even as breeding material?)
That can't be according to Clan rules right? Would the other Clans accept that "gift"? Or would they be duty bound to send those children back? The Horses will most likely not because they are enemies with the Wolves and would love to spite them. The rest though.. I can see the Foxes and Ravens extract a hefty price for it and the Bears are...unpredictable
And could they perhaps trace the genes back? And find out WHO actually are the genefather and gene mother of Alaric?
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I give you another example: after the SLDF had wiped out the Jaguars other Clans picked Huntress clean. for example the Scorpions took over the production facilities on Abysmal and began producing new variants of certain Mechs.
I mentioned that already. :wink:
Or another example: the Foxes began producing new versions of the Timber Wolf but under a new name: Mad Cat MK2 and Mad Cat MK 3
Not a valid example; those are new designs that they created themselves from the ground up, not variants of the Timber Wolf.
The Dragoons "abducted" a sibko which was made out of Alaric's genes and they even planned to send some those to the other Clans (excuding the Jaguars and Falcons) while using the rest as candiates (maybe even as breeding material?)
That can't be according to Clan rules right?
If the sibko wasn't taken in a Trial of Possession, then no. (I have no idea because I haven't/won't read that book, but I assume they weren't.)
Would the other Clans accept that "gift"? Or would they be duty bound to send those children back?
I wouldn't say they'd be "duty bound" to send them back... and why did the book say they were sending some to the other Clans at all?
And could they perhaps trace the genes back? And find out WHO actually are the genefather and gene mother of Alaric?
Katherine's, at least, because she did test into the warrior caste, so it's likely her DNA is on file (with the Wolves). But unlike the pre-WoR days, the Council of Six specifically did not have Blood Chapels/a Master Repository, so I doubt the other Clans have access to those records.
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If the sibko wasn't taken in a Trial of Possession, then no. (I have no idea because I haven't/won't read that book, but I assume they weren't.)
I wouldn't say they'd be "duty bound" to send them back... and why did the book say they were sending some to the other Clans at all?
The sibko was part of the raid on Gienah. But as you said not part of a trial of possession as the Dragoons never declared a trial or answered to Othar's trial request. It was basically a smash and grab though the sibko was only part of it (the other parts were smashing the garrison and either kill or capture Othar)
Kincaid's reason was that he has the progeny of Alaric's genes and he now has spread it to the stars basically forcing Alaric to fight against his own children at one point. He was also referring to the giftake of said children when he told Marotta Kerensky about this. So maybe if said Clans take those children and raise them to worthy warriors they might have the option to take a giftake from them (from what I understand is that warriors give a gifttake the day they enter the warrior caste)
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Kincaid's reason was that he has the progeny of Alaric's genes and he now has spread it to the stars basically forcing Alaric to fight against his own children at one point.
I'm sorry, but this sounds like cringe fanfic, LOL. Is this supposed to be some sort of flex? If the sibko kiddies end up doing well and Alaric finds out they were bred from his DNA, he can just chalk it up to his "superior genetics", and if they don't, then it means nothing. Either way, the whole thing sounds incredibly stupid.
He was also referring to the giftake of said children when he told Marotta Kerensky about this. So maybe if said Clans take those children and raise them to worthy warriors they might have the option to take a giftake from them (from what I understand is that warriors give a gifttake the day they enter the warrior caste)
I guess that's no different than the Clans who have taken in freebirths and added them to their genetic libraries (RasDom and Scorpion Empire especially come to mind here), though I'd imagine Alaric could slap a Clan that uses those sibbies or his DNA (remember, you can't just take warriors from a Clan even through a Trial and use their DNA; you have to win the breeding rights separately) with a Trial of Grievance (or worse, since he's the ilKhan-for-Life) since they did not win those breeding rights in a Trial.
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I'm sorry, but this sounds like cringe fanfic, LOL. Is this supposed to be some sort of flex? If the sibko kiddies end up doing well and Alaric finds out they were bred from his DNA, he can just chalk it up to his "superior genetics", and if they don't, then it means nothing. Either way, the whole thing sounds incredibly stupid.
I guess that's no different than the Clans who have taken in freebirths and added them to their genetic libraries (RasDom and Scorpion Empire especially come to mind here), though I'd imagine Alaric could slap a Clan that uses those sibbies or his DNA (remember, you can't just take warriors from a Clan even through a Trial and use their DNA; you have to win the breeding rights separately) with a Trial of Grievance (or worse, since he's the ilKhan-for-Life) since they did not win those breeding rights in a Trial.
I am not sure if Alaric will simply "chalk it up". After all from what I understand is that the genes of "superior" warriors are something Clans fight huge trials over. Heck the Wolf Clan never lost a trial in regards to the Kerensky samples (loosing a warrior with a Kerensky bloodname yes but not the rights to the use of said genes). So if now his genes have been spread by MERCENARIES I could see that as a slap in the face (like "What? You can't even defend your own "children"? Sucker!") Of course the question is if said gifts ever arrive at the intended recipients. Otherwise it will simply be swept under the rug.
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Katherine made it into the warrior caste ?
Must have missed something lol, but after all I used to be a strictly Falcon only observer
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I'm sorry, but this sounds like cringe fanfic, LOL. Is this supposed to be some sort of flex? If the sibko kiddies end up doing well and Alaric finds out they were bred from his DNA, he can just chalk it up to his "superior genetics", and if they don't, then it means nothing. Either way, the whole thing sounds incredibly stupid.
I guess that's no different than the Clans who have taken in freebirths and added them to their genetic libraries (RasDom and Scorpion Empire especially come to mind here), though I'd imagine Alaric could slap a Clan that uses those sibbies or his DNA (remember, you can't just take warriors from a Clan even through a Trial and use their DNA; you have to win the breeding rights separately) with a Trial of Grievance (or worse, since he's the ilKhan-for-Life) since they did not win those breeding rights in a Trial.
Hack does talk about how Alaric may end up fighting his own descendents. Hack kept most, then sent some to bears, horses, foxes, and would try to reach ravens. He dismissed Alaric’s pet clans. The bulk of the sibko will be raised as Wolf Dragoons, taught who their father is, what sort of garbage, dishonorable weasel he is. They might become soldiers who fight the ilClan or not.
My impression of the real goal was from a different line. Alaric, by virtue of becoming the ilKhan, can name his successor. Hack robbed the wolves of Alaric’s descendants. He delayed Alaric being able to name one of his “children” as a successor for another 10 years. It’s petty and personal in a way only clans would get.
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Katherine made it into the warrior caste ?
Must have missed something lol, but after all I used to be a strictly Falcon only observer
Yup she made it into the warrior caste and she did so by obliterating a Victor Battlemech completly ignoring the rules of her trial of position
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Yup she made it into the warrior caste and she did so by obliterating a Victor Battlemech completly ignoring the rules of her trial of position
Not true. She ignored the normal rules of the Trial of Position. The Victor was not scheduled as her first opponent, but it was one of her 3 opponents. She took the unconventional route of targeting one of her other targets, got the kill, and that was enough for her & what she wanted/needed.
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Yup she made it into the warrior caste and she did so by obliterating a Victor Battlemech
<I hates my brother!!!> I remember that on-the-nose bad writing...
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<I hates my brother!!!> I remember that on-the-nose bad writing...
Would have been more funny if that had been her brother's Mech. But that Mech was lost when the Black Heart Rose unit was destroyed on Niops
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Question about Alaric Ward. In the Dark Age novels it was clear he was a fake Clanner with only Victor and Katherine's genes right? I'm rereading Masters of War and Bonfire of Worlds to find the evidence. I seem to recall the Loremaster at the end of Bonfire being aware and ready to spring that news on the Clan when Alaric stepped in the wrong direction.
But fast forward to the last few years, Alaric was revealed to have Vlad's genes as well, and that Loremaster was never heard about again. This was just retcon/not paying attention to former stories ,right?
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No idea on that, I'd heard he was Vic & Katie & only Vlad by Record Alteration, etc, etc, so they wouldn't show it being Vic & having no clanner in him.
I actually don't even know how he is a "Ward" though since Katie isn't a Ward & its known that Katie is the Gene mother?
If anything the records would need to show Vlad as the Gene-Mother.
But I'm not up on my Republic era reading so not sure what sort of DNA soup they are claiming these days.
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According to Living Legends Alaric Ward is a mix out of Vlad Ward and Katherine's genes. But Katherine was used as the gene mother so how he was even eligable for a bloodname is beyond me. Of course we don't know who filled in the records so it will probably never come out (unless they can trace it down from the 19 children the Dragoons abducted from Gienah). Also who knows if they also infused some of Victor's gene as well.
Also didn't realize it but Alaric is named for the barbarian king who destroyed the Western Roman Empire. Kind of fitting that he destroys the Republic which is modelled after the Roman Republic. And if that is what the writers go by we will get a very long time of war until a new Empire will form.
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I always assumed he was a "proper" Clanner, especially having his Bloodname, but then I found out his mother was Katherine, and I thought that she and Vlad "procreated"
I was never really up to speed on Republic, Dark Age novels at the time, outside Jade Falcon
But will make interesting fiction if this claim/issue keeps getting brought up in universe about legitimacy to rule. Are the Horses aware of this ? If not it will make them even more Hellish mad :evil:
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Alaric is Ilkhan now. The question is who actually will dare to speak against him except the Horses? As long as he succeeds no one will dare. Of course pissing off every possible ally isn't exactly a way for a long and healthy career. Imagine if the Bears find out they tore their realm apart because some "mixbred" didn't accept their allegiance and demanded a second referendum?
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He publicly declared his claim to the Lyra throne, didn’t he? So KSD as a genetic source would be known.
But the VSD side would be hidden. I imagine at least one of the clans that gets an Alaric Junior will test him. Then it’s a matter if the writing team wants to use that for some drama.
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But fast forward to the last few years, Alaric was revealed to have Vlad's genes as well, and that Loremaster was never heard about again. This was just retcon/not paying attention to former stories ,right?
The ONLY bit in fiction where this keys in is b/c his codex triggers Vlad's message heading to Terra.
Hellraiser's bit is one of the confusing things in Legends that is handwaved away to be simplistic- Katherine is called his mother (not a Clan term) because she was a female donor, but not the 'maternal' donor which is the Clan terminology.
Also didn't realize it but Alaric is named for the barbarian king who destroyed the Western Roman Empire. Kind of fitting that he destroys the Republic which is modelled after the Roman Republic. And if that is what the writers go by we will get a very long time of war until a new Empire will form.
Eh, the foreshadowing with Alaric taking down the Roman "Republic" was never really concealed.
His objectives/intention has also never been hidden, which is also why the Arthurian and Alfred-esque names of Mechs that were put out and later turned into . . . eh, Storm Wolf, Alpha Wolf, Amarok, whatever . . . make more sense for the symbolism.
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Hellraiser's bit is one of the confusing things in Legends that is handwaved away to be simplistic- Katherine is called his mother (not a Clan term) because she was a female donor, but not the 'maternal' donor which is the Clan terminology.
I kind of assumed it had to be reversed on the records, just thought it was odd the way they said "Gene-Mother"
Swapping parent chromosome donation would have to be really common given the way blood houses trade certain use rights.
Things like "2 dads or 2 moms or swapped" would have to be fairly norm.
My own character (see sig) had fluff of a female "Paternal Donor" and a male "Maternal Donor" based on which house he was from & who the other donor was.
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Maybe in place off Katherine`s giftake secretly Victor`s gene material was used?
Or they combined both?
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Masters of War laid this out years ago: Katherine is his gene-mother, Victor is his gene-father.
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Hellraiser's bit is one of the confusing things in Legends that is handwaved away to be simplistic- Katherine is called his mother (not a Clan term) because she was a female donor, but not the 'maternal' donor which is the Clan terminology.
No, the term “genemother” (which is the Clan terminology) is used for Katherine in Alaric’s Legends entry.
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I remember that Vlad Ward was also was noted as third entry in his DNA background.
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I remember that Vlad Ward was also was noted as third entry in his DNA background.
Where specifically was this noted? Because it makes far more sense that only Vlad and Katherine would be listed in Clan genetic records; Victor’s contribution is not public knowledge and Vlad is the reason he was able to compete for a Bloodname (despite being his genefather) in the first place. Though I suppose more immediately, Seth Ward is the reason he was able to compete since Seth and Katherine were colluding and Seth would have the power/reach to falsify genetic records so Alaric would have a path to a Bloodname. Liam Ward’s disgusted internal thoughts during Alaric’s Trial of Bloodright certainly corroborate this being the case, too; he knew Alaric was a Steiner-Davion and therefore had no real claim on a Ward Bloodname.
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No, the term “genemother” (which is the Clan terminology) is used for Katherine in Alaric’s Legends entry.
That may have just been a mistake by whoever was responsible for writing/reviewing those entries for Catalyst. If they didn’t understand the significance of genemothers to bloodname eligibility, or that the genemother can be the biological mother or biological father, then they probably would have just assumed that “well, of course, Katherine is the genemother”.
It seems strange that this knowledge would be in a widely distributed dossier and _not_ cause problems for Alaric in-universe. Hence, my assumption that the out-of-universe writer and fact-checker just screwed up.
FWIW…
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Honestly, given how riddled Legends is with errors, it’s worth quite a bit for you to point that out.
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So is little big Wolf (technically) a Clanner ? lol
Let me see if I can get it right. Out of universe
He is Steiner (Katherine) Davion (Victor) genetic material DNA mix in Iron Womb, but some how linked to Vlad and Ward Bloodname (supposedly) through Katherine ?
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So is little big Wolf (technically) a Clanner ? lol
Let me see if I can get it right. Out of universe
He is Steiner (Katherine) Davion (Victor) genetic material DNA mix in Iron Womb, but some how linked to Vlad and Ward Bloodname (supposedly) through Katherine ?
I think the original novels with him had it right: He was called a "tank born". He was gestated and born from a iron womb, but somebody seemed to know he technically was not trueborn.
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He is Steiner (Katherine) Davion (Victor) genetic material DNA mix in Iron Womb, but some how linked to Vlad and Ward Bloodname (supposedly) through Katherine ?
Yes. Alaric is the product of Victor and Katherine's genetic material, but Vlad is listed as the "baby daddy" for lots of obvious reasons, a lie maintained over the years through Katherine's influence within the Clan. Khan Seth Ward (Alaric's immediate predecessor), for instance, was a longtime political ally of hers, and they apparently held enough power to ensure that opponents like the Loremaster, Liam Ward, helped enable Alaric's claiming of the Ward Bloodname despite his personal opposition to/disgust for it.
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wasnt there something WAY back in the novels about them being able to use DNA and specify father/mother designations as they tried to keep and improve the best traits? if there isnt, that could be the way to add Vlad as "genemother" to the genetic milkshake that is Alaric Ward.
and Victor and Katherine's DNA would be close enough to each other that they may appear the same to a quick scan. Maybe Katherines isnt truly in there at all. Alaric could be a mix of Victor and Vlad.
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Maybe Katherines isnt truly in there at all. Alaric could be a mix of Victor and Vlad.
Oh, if only BattleTech would be so bold. :laugh:
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Oh, if only BattleTech would be so bold. :laugh:
Well the Clans don't need sex to produce children so in that regard Battletech is way ahead of us :tongue:
But as funny as that sounds the Clan iron womb still needs female and male "donations" to produce viable children (at least that's how I understand the technology).
I am not sure if I asked that before but has there ever been a notion in Battletech to outright clone people? The Clans aren't exactly producing clones they are just producing humans with the supposed best genes they have but no clones.
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The Aiden sibkos were supposed to be clones, or near enough to not matter.
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The Aiden sibkos were supposed to be clones, or near enough to not matter.
That is correct, I don't think you need the conventional means to create a child. You just need some kind of blood or DNA to create human being through the iron wombs.
I wish I could remember where I read they were all three people contributing, that would make also more sense. Cuz the only way Katherine had gotten pictures blood was probably through the Dragoons. Which would have been blood which would have been blood not his other stuff.
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The Aiden sibkos were supposed to be clones, or near enough to not matter.
Were Aidan`s gene material not being used as both genefather and genemother?
This would be no cloning.
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Were Aidan`s gene material not being used as both genefather and genemother?
This would be no cloning.
I remember the story line and Aiden was the sole source and we also have Maeve Wolf who was Jaime Wolf sole gene parent. I would consider them clones even if some of them had their chromosomes switched.
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Its important to remember how the clans do this.
I think in many cases they just use actual samples from Trueborns & "let mother nature take its course" or something like that was mentioned.
But sometimes they need to do certain pairings & that is where they have to flip things around in some way. (I would think this is actually fairly often)
I don't have the books at the ready, but, IIRC, they use "blank" eggs/sperm, or they overwrite what is there, with DNA from 2 blood name donors.
And sometimes it will just be a single Bloodname Donor who is then the "Mother", and the "Father-Gene" is actually a Non-Bloodnamed Warrior or Exceptional Civilian caste.
This was done for sure with the First 800 when they also used 600 "others" to create a viable starting gene pool.
They occasionally take new samples just to keep the pool from getting stagnant.
Point being, that, from what I can tell about Alaric they keep saying Mother/Father as Katie/Vlad but in the records this would need to be "flipped.
So you would have Vlad listed in records as "Gene-Mother" so that Alaric can be part of House Ward.
You can legally have Katie listed as "Gene-Father" in the records as a "Exceptional" Donor to refresh the pool.
And from the way the books have called it, the "Vlad-Donation" is not actually from Vlad but is actually from Victor.
So you have Mother = Vlad (Records) / Victor (Genes) while Father = Katie (Records & Genes)
At least that is how I understand it to make it all official on the record books regardless of the fact that he's from Victor's Genes & not Vlad's.
All the misuse of names seems to be mistakes by the Authors who maybe don't know the nitty gritty of how the Blood Houses work.
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As for both Aiden & Maeve, yes, in those cases, they basically did a 1-DNA overwrite so you were getting a "duplicate" instead of a possible new/better combo.
Which is against the clan way but in both cases w/ Aiden & Jamie the Scientist or Dragoons felt they weren't getting a better pairing I guess.
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Thanks for the responses, man its confusing lol
So out of universe, it is correct to say Alaric is not a true Clanner ? (as in DNA, not birth method)
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Alaric is technically not Trueborn. He either has no heritage from the original bloodname founders, or very little if more recent citing of having at least some of Vlad's DNA is true. (Which it sounds like it's just cover, IMHO.)
Is he a Clanner? That is up to debate. Is anyone who has to lie about their heritage a true Clanner? If he always wins any trials that come his way, then yes. But as long as people can question his validity, it seems to be problematic.
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He is a true Clanner, he was born and raised in a Clan and lives the Clan life plus being Clanner is not limited to just trueborns or warriors
Is he a trueborn? Well he came from an iron womb so I guess it should be enough
It's his DNA composition which is wonky so what is really sus is his parentage not his Clanner or trueborn status
But in terms of politics it's definitely an issue
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Being Trueborn is more than just being born from an iron womb. A Trueborn warrior must be descended from the bloodname founders. Which is why Alaric was called Tank Born, and not Trueborn.
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Correct, I forgot that Iron Wombs can be used for regular reproduction
So Clanner yes, trueborn no
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Yeah if all iron womb born people were Clanners then Wolf's Dragoons are still mostly Clanners as the majority of their personnel comes from these machines (except adoptees of course)
Also in terms of "mixing" genes for new babies: in the Interstellar Players 2 the Society got an entry and one of the texts mention how the Society genetic scientists tried to combine DNA from different Clans and said results often produced children with a lot of genetic defects. Which is kind of interesting because how come this has never happened in Clan history before as Clans often stage trials for genetic material among themselves. Unless they ignored certain protocols of course
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Also in terms of "mixing" genes for new babies: in the Interstellar Players 2 the Society got an entry and one of the texts mention how the Society genetic scientists tried to combine DNA from different Clans and said results often produced children with a lot of genetic defects. Which is kind of interesting because how come this has never happened in Clan history before as Clans often stage trials for genetic material among themselves. Unless they ignored certain protocols of course
The whole point of that blurb, and the Society in general, is that they’re ignoring protocols.
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Rereading Masters of War last night, and yeah the first chapter is EXPLICIT that.
Vlad only has Victor and Katherine's DNA.
And then Vlad is not his geneparent in either capacity. Alaric was very disappointed to find this out.
So if Children of Kerensky later contradicts that... it's a retcon, straight forward.
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Rereading Masters of War last night, and yeah the first chapter is EXPLICIT that.
Vlad only has Victor and Katherine's DNA.
And then Vlad is not his geneparent in either capacity. Alaric was very disappointed to find this out.
So if Children of Kerensky later contradicts that... it's a retcon, straight forward.
I think that's where I read it or Hour of the Wolf
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Clans, structurally, are also kind of terrible at not taking things outside of combat at face value. Yeah, khans and some galaxy commanders get it, but overall the clans are bad at it. Even if he isn’t a Ward, once someone has set the deception in place that his codex says he is Vlad Ward’s descendent, who’s going to doubt that? What clanner thinks to to test him over that? It would be something almost unthinkable and you would have to be absolutely certain with evidence for it before you confront it.
Even then, all it takes is a quiet trial of grievance where Alaric oopsie daisy killed the one who caught on.
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Plus there's still a simple fact that someone would need to both challenge AND beat him
He has been challenged many times before over many different things and he won almost every time, he wouldn't have been Khan otherwise
He has the skills
And while DNA is important the combat and war track records are even more important so if he keeps leading Clan to victories his parentage will stay on the back burner
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There’s a reason Alaric’s true lineage has been covered up at the highest levels, and it isn’t because no one would care just because he’s winning a lot. I imagine the Clans (and maybe most especially the Wolves) would have a huge problem with learning that their victory came at the hands of a Steiner-Davion lab experiment. The post-WoR Clans aren’t gonna look too kindly on genetic deceptions. Alaric certainly isn’t invincible, either, as Anastasia Kerensky has handed him his ass before.
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Alaric is technically not Trueborn. He either has no heritage from the original bloodname founders, or very little if more recent citing of having at least some of Vlad's DNA is true. (Which it sounds like it's just cover, IMHO.)
The IKEO novel is called Trial of Birthright or something close. We know Alarics has got non-standard genes. We know the Dragoons kidnapped some of his sibcos. I suspect all the questionable parentage along with the poison pill of Terra (and his mother killing habits) are going to come home to roost sooner rather than later. The 3rd League force packs more than a year out and other comments from TBTB are enough evidence for me that 3rd League is going to be around for a while. We might not have to put up with Alaric for much longer.
After all his name sake didn't make it out of Italy.
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I am the son of both Victor Steiner-Davion and Vlad Ward...I am destined to be unstoppable.
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I wouldn’t necessarily read that so literally. Not all father/son relationships are biological.
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The IKEO novel is called Trial of Birthright or something close. We know Alarics has got non-standard genes. We know the Dragoons kidnapped some of his sibcos.
the Dragoons kidnapped one sibco consisting of 19 children all 9 years old. Kincaid is splitting them up, keeping some to be trained as Dragoons while the rest will be send to the other Clans. The question will be if Marrota Kerensky is able to inform Alaric of what has happened or if he keeps quiet about it. Of course the Ilkhan's "children" are a very valuable gift though if they ever arrive is another question
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even if someone ran a gene trace on them it'd be easy eneugh for the wolves to just say those children wheren't really wolves anyway and where some sort of 'goons plot.
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Yeah, I don't think anyone will be convinced by the children. Although it might bolster the willingness of anti-Alaric factions in various Clans to resist.
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I think that's where I read it or Hour of the Wolf
No, Hour of the Wolf is only that VLAD'S message reaches Alaric b/c his codex shows a descendant of Vlad was on the DS.
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There’s a reason Alaric’s true lineage has been covered up at the highest levels, and it isn’t because no one would care just because he’s winning a lot. I imagine the Clans (and maybe most especially the Wolves) would have a huge problem with learning that their victory came at the hands of a Steiner-Davion lab experiment. The post-WoR Clans aren’t gonna look too kindly on genetic deceptions. Alaric certainly isn’t invincible, either, as Anastasia Kerensky has handed him his ass before.
The ultimate authority from which all legitimacy in the Clan is derived is violence - or more specifically, no one caring enough to raise a violent fuss about it. Clan politics are predicated on either being good enough to win your disagreements or agreeable enough to not have to fight over them or some combination of both. In that regard you're spot on here: if Alaric's provenance were widely known, there would be a lot of people who suddenly feel like it is worth their time to fight about it, and no matter how good you might be you can't win every fight.
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The next (legitimacy) "reunifications" wars begin :evil:, Alaric's secret gets out and has so many Trials, Skirmishes and incursions after he perhaps blunts Cappies advance
So, who shall next "run" for First Lord :police:
I have had a thought to, going further into ilClan, will perhaps TPTB have a "slight" time jump like Dark Age ? Like 20 years, and have the "catch up" formula they did through Jihad to the start of Dark Age ?
Side note: Kinda ironic, at current a Steiner Davion sits on the Star League throne :laugh:
IKEO is it out ? or is it just the title name we know now ?
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There’s a reason Alaric’s true lineage has been covered up at the highest levels, and it isn’t because no one would care just because he’s winning a lot. I imagine the Clans (and maybe most especially the Wolves) would have a huge problem with learning that their victory came at the hands of a Steiner-Davion lab experiment. The post-WoR Clans aren’t gonna look too kindly on genetic deceptions. Alaric certainly isn’t invincible, either, as Anastasia Kerensky has handed him his ass before.
Yes. And I'm inclined to think that as of 3152 (and likely before that even) people sometimes get murdered to keep this a secret. Scientists probably have to swear an oath of secrecy and loyalty to Alaric himself if they know and wish to stay alive.
the Dragoons kidnapped one sibco consisting of 19 children all 9 years old. Kincaid is splitting them up, keeping some to be trained as Dragoons while the rest will be send to the other Clans. The question will be if Marrota Kerensky is able to inform Alaric of what has happened or if he keeps quiet about it. Of course the Ilkhan's "children" are a very valuable gift though if they ever arrive is another question
even if someone ran a gene trace on them it'd be easy eneugh for the wolves to just say those children wheren't really wolves anyway and where some sort of 'goons plot.
If the Dragoons knew to do it, they should have went to any length to grab some of the genetic scientists while they were tromping around on Gienah. Then they could get the whole picture.
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According to Redemption Rites the Dragoons included the codex of each of the children they send away. Even the giftake. Or perhaps they wrote down "You can take a giftake and check for yourself" Which sounds to me as if the Dragoons took more then just a small group of children. Though why no one thought of also raiding the Wolf HQ is beyond especially after turning nearly every Wolf warrior into paste or POW
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Also, timing. Goons did that in mid 3152. Trial by birthright is… I’m assuming late 3151nto mid 3152?
So while Alaric’s lineage might matter in the end, it shouldn’t for this novel
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I am usually very much an advocate for bringing the WizKids material forward into the Catalyst-side of things, but Alaric's heritage is a tricky matter. For one, Masters of War completely reverses the genefather/genemother dynamic that any clanner knows at his core. Ignoring the VSD aspect for now, Katherine would never have been his genemother as she isn't a bloodnamed warrior. Claiming eligibility for the Ward bloodname means Vlad Ward is Alaric's genemother (at least as far as the paperwork is concerned). This all should have been caught by fact-checkers (or the author considering how many clan novels he's written). For whatever reason it went through making this all a mess.
Beyond that nit-picking, there's the fact that in a post Wars of Reaving Clan Wolf, you have scientists willing falsify data and engage in un-clan-like genetic modifications with warrior genetics is shocking to me. Katherine is a special case, but after Vlad's death, Ivan Kerensky and subsequent Khans side-lined her power and access. My personal take is Alaric's genemother is Vlad, genefather is Katherine and the stuff about Victor is just more psychological manipulation by Katherine. DNA testing should be a simple way to prove the truth.
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Imagine if said gene cocktail is proven to be true. I wonder who would be the first to call a Reaving trial against alaric and his spawn? If any even dare as so far Alaric is winning in every way and in clan society victory comes first. Heck most clans happily throw away their customs at first chance to achieve victory.
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Personally when it comes to Alaric he is (to me) either the son of Vlad and Victor or is has the genetics of Victor, Vlad, and Katherine. It also would not surprise me if there were elements of The Society within Clan Wolf who did not purge their science caste as brutally as the Falcons did.
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Personally when it comes to Alaric he is (to me) either the son of Vlad and Victor or is has the genetics of Victor, Vlad, and Katherine. It also would not surprise me if there were elements of The Society within Clan Wolf who did not purge their science caste as brutally as the Falcons did.
There was very little if any presence of Society in the Wolves
We know from WoR that amount of Society infiltration while they existed was directly proportionate to oppressiveness of specific Clans
For example Star Adders had almost none while Jade Falcons were riddled with Society
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There was very little if any presence of Society in the Wolves
We know from WoR that amount of Society infiltration while they existed was directly proportionate to oppressiveness of specific Clans
For example Star Adders had almost none while Jade Falcons were riddled with Society
That’s not accurate. What WoR actually says is that the more strict and rigid the Clan was in its adherence to Kerensky’s tenets, the fewer cells were present.
The Wolves had a pretty difficult time with the Society cells in their midst, especially once they learned of the “destruction” of the Kerensky genetic line.
The Falcons are a glaring exception specifically because of Etienne and his particular faction of the Society. He had a major axe to grind against his former Clan.
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I am usually very much an advocate for bringing the WizKids material forward into the Catalyst-side of things, but Alaric's heritage is a tricky matter. For one, Masters of War completely reverses the genefather/genemother dynamic that any clanner knows at his core. Ignoring the VSD aspect for now, Katherine would never have been his genemother as she isn't a bloodnamed warrior. Claiming eligibility for the Ward bloodname means Vlad Ward is Alaric's genemother (at least as far as the paperwork is concerned). This all should have been caught by fact-checkers (or the author considering how many clan novels he's written). For whatever reason it went through making this all a mess.
Beyond that nit-picking, there's the fact that in a post Wars of Reaving Clan Wolf, you have scientists willing falsify data and engage in un-clan-like genetic modifications with warrior genetics is shocking to me. Katherine is a special case, but after Vlad's death, Ivan Kerensky and subsequent Khans side-lined her power and access. My personal take is Alaric's genemother is Vlad, genefather is Katherine and the stuff about Victor is just more psychological manipulation by Katherine. DNA testing should be a simple way to prove the truth.
Pretty sure Katherine insists on being called 'mother' not that she was his maternal donor.
But you are also talking about a book Stackpole rolled out throwing out I would guess some of his favorite Wolf clusters, the SLDF legacy units & 4th Wolf Guards . . . except they went Warden and the SLDF legacies were retired (for some reason in FMWC, something that makes NO sense at all IC).
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they went Warden and the SLDF legacies were retired (for some reason in FMWC, something that makes NO sense at all IC).
I think the IC reason was because there wasn't enough of any single cluster left to form around, so instead of picking & choosing who did or did not get to continue in name, they started a new formation to give all the warriors a common unity.
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Beyond that nit-picking, there's the fact that in a post Wars of Reaving Clan Wolf, you have scientists willing falsify data and engage in un-clan-like genetic modifications with warrior genetics is shocking to me. Katherine is a special case, but after Vlad's death, Ivan Kerensky and subsequent Khans side-lined her power and access.
Not all subsequent Khans did, though. Katherine specifically forged a political alliance with Seth Ward. And well before that, in 3083, she managed to get her supporter into the Loremaster post after Katya Kerensky (also her ally) stepped down. It's clear that despite Ivan Kerensky's efforts, Katherine's power was never truly sidelined.
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I think the IC reason was because there wasn't enough of any single cluster left to form around, so instead of picking & choosing who did or did not get to continue in name, they started a new formation to give all the warriors a common unity.
You claim to be the original Wolves, you keep the legacy clusters.
But the point remains, he seemed to have written Masters w/o any sort of acknowledgement of what was done to them post-Refusal.
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Not all subsequent Khans did, though. Katherine specifically forged a political alliance with Seth Ward. And well before that, in 3083, she managed to get her supporter into the Loremaster post after Katya Kerensky (also her ally) stepped down. It's clear that despite Ivan Kerensky's efforts, Katherine's power was never truly sidelined.
My question is though, why was Katherine so influential in Clan Wolf politics? When Vlad was alive it makes a little sense, but she's a Wolf warrior, not ranked. I know one of the Shrapnel stories mentioned she still had on tap several assassins who killed several Wolf individuals who opposed her, but being influential enough to get Scientists to allow Alaric to be spawned? Always seemed strange.
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My question is though, why was Katherine so influential in Clan Wolf politics? When Vlad was alive it makes a little sense, but she's a Wolf warrior, not ranked. I know one of the Shrapnel stories mentioned she still had on tap several assassins who killed several Wolf individuals who opposed her, but being influential enough to get Scientists to allow Alaric to be spawned? Always seemed strange.
Because she’s politically adept, made the right allies (Katya Kerensky, the Loremaster she helped get into said position, Seth Ward), and made the most of what she had access to under Vlad. It’s not strange at all to me.
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My question is though, why was Katherine so influential in Clan Wolf politics? When Vlad was alive it makes a little sense, but she's a Wolf warrior, not ranked. I know one of the Shrapnel stories mentioned she still had on tap several assassins who killed several Wolf individuals who opposed her, but being influential enough to get Scientists to allow Alaric to be spawned? Always seemed strange.
You also have to think, Katherine would have a long term perspective . . . we constantly hear the Clan warriors are bad at strategy in general- MOST of the Wolf leadership she is going to be enemies of will not operate on a long term plan.
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You also have to think, Katherine would have a long term perspective . . . we constantly hear the Clan warriors are bad at strategy in general- MOST of the Wolf leadership she is going to be enemies of will not operate on a long term plan.
Lots of Clan factions and leaders are depicted as rash and reactionary. But I’d argue that the Wolves are one of the exceptions to the norm (along with the Adders and Bears). Kerlin, Ulrich and pretty much anyone with the Kerensky bloodname being prime examples of long-term thinkers. Although he makes mistakes logistically, even Vlad seems more patient and thoughtful than comparatively rabid Falcon opponents. Although she was a political, not military, planner, Katherine may have fit in with Wolf leadership more because of their similarities than differences.
FWIW...
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Also we're TOLD constantly Kat is a "good political thinker" but honestly during the late FASA era, partiuclarly during the FCCW it was very much "told not shown" and frankly, what we've been shown didn't seem to bear that out, she was constantly out manuvers by SunTzu Liao (granted this WAS the 3060s when the writers didn't seem to think they could allow STL to have anything but total victory after total victory and turned everyone around him into morons whenever nesscary to back it up) and her decision making process seemed to be very "I AM QUEEN DO AS I SAY!" which isn't really politics (politics involves bringing others to your side, offering comprimises to get what you want etc)
KSD would have had to evovle considerably to work among the clans, and sadly we simply never got a chance to see that
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Also we're TOLD constantly Kat is a "good political thinker" but honestly during the late FASA era, partiuclarly during the FCCW it was very much "told not shown" and frankly, what we've been shown didn't seem to bear that out, she was constantly out manuvers by SunTzu Liao (granted this WAS the 3060s when the writers didn't seem to think they could allow STL to have anything but total victory after total victory and turned everyone around him into morons whenever nesscary to back it up) and her decision making process seemed to be very "I AM QUEEN DO AS I SAY!" which isn't really politics (politics involves bringing others to your side, offering comprimises to get what you want etc)
KSD would have had to evovle considerably to work among the clans, and sadly we simply never got a chance to see that
You do some when she predicts the meeting for Alaric.
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Also we're TOLD constantly Kat is a "good political thinker" but honestly during the late FASA era, partiuclarly during the FCCW it was very much "told not shown" and frankly, what we've been shown didn't seem to bear that out, she was constantly out manuvers by SunTzu Liao (granted this WAS the 3060s when the writers didn't seem to think they could allow STL to have anything but total victory after total victory and turned everyone around him into morons whenever nesscary to back it up) and her decision making process seemed to be very "I AM QUEEN DO AS I SAY!" which isn't really politics (politics involves bringing others to your side, offering comprimises to get what you want etc)
KSD would have had to evovle considerably to work among the clans, and sadly we simply never got a chance to see that
Well that was then overturned when Sun-Tzu was humiliated by the Republic in the opening wars of the Republic.
On another note Katherine was described as having little control over her emotions. I suspect as long as Victor was there and "provoked" her she would always fall especially after loosing Tormano Liao who was able to guide her.
I would suspect that her warrior training in the Clans (which we never saw except the sham of a trial of position) gave her some discipline in that regard.
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Which novel / sourcebook describes about her joining Clan Wolf and how ?
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Which novel / sourcebook describes about her joining Clan Wolf and how ?
End Game, it only shows her being collected by Khan Vladimir Ward.
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Which novel / sourcebook describes about her joining Clan Wolf and how ?
The FedCom civil war sourcebook also states that Victor banished her to the Wolf OZ, which was repeated in the FM 3067. Masters & Minions states that she was adopted into the Wolf clan and made a warrior which she achieved with a kill in her trial of position (which was later described in Legends as unloading all of her Warhawk's PPC's into a Victor). Plus her surnames Steiner-Davion was stripped and she earned the name Wolf with becoming a warrior
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Thanks for that
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We don't know how she got her own bloodname aka Steiner. That was never explained.
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We don't know how she got her own bloodname aka Steiner. That was never explained.
She didn't get her own Bloodname (or any Bloodname).
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We don't know how she got her own bloodname aka Steiner. That was never explained.
Alaric's 'birthing' was a special situation entirely predicated on Katherine's wily political methods that ensnared Clan Wolf leadership.
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Would Katherine - and, by extension, Alaric - have been eligible for the pre-existing Steiner Bloodname, akin to how Phelan was eligible for the Ward Bloodname back during the days of Operation REVIVAL?
While the Cloud Cobras have not been heard of since the Wars of Reaving Supplemental File, there are (if I recall) a few Bloodnames in common use by both the Homeworld Clans and by the Clans of the Inner Sphere and near Periphery (and by the Goliath Scorpions) at last reporting. So it might not have been entirely without precedent for the Cobras' Steiner Bloodname to be called upon as a basis for use by the Wolves, had they wished to do so here.
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Alaric's 'birthing' was a special situation entirely predicated on Katherine's wily political methods that ensnared Clan Wolf leadership.
It is possible w/o anything underhanded going on.
A Non-Bloodnamed person is allowed to be a "Gene-Father" in exceptional cases.
The original generation of 800 Bloodnamed also had 600 Non-Bloodnamed used as "Gene-Fathers" to expand the gene pool for diversity & it has been done sense then to "refresh the pool".
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Would Katherine - and, by extension, Alaric - have been eligible for the pre-existing Steiner Bloodname, akin to how Phelan was eligible for the Ward Bloodname back during the days of Operation REVIVAL?
While the Cloud Cobras have not been heard of since the Wars of Reaving Supplemental File, there are (if I recall) a few Bloodnames in common use by both the Homeworld Clans and by the Clans of the Inner Sphere and near Periphery (and by the Goliath Scorpions) at last reporting. So it might not have been entirely without precedent for the Cobras' Steiner Bloodname to be called upon as a basis for use by the Wolves, had they wished to do so here.
1. Possible but we don't know enough I think.
The Ruling Steiner line above Katrina would have have to be a descendant of the original Bloodnamed like Phelan was.
I don't know enough about Steiner lineage to know if the 1st Bloonamed is one of Katrina's ancestors.
The Maternal part works since Katie, Melissa, Katrina are females the way Phelan had to be from Salome Ward & she was her own 3rd cousin or something like that so she had a link on both parents side or something from the fluff.
2. But really it doesn't matter, Katie didn't need a Blood Name to be allowed to be the "Gene-Father" of Alaric as I mentioned previously.
You can have a Non-Bloodnamed be a donor, albeit, "rarely". It is legal & completely possible to do so in the clans.
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It is possible w/o anything underhanded going on.
A Non-Bloodnamed person is allowed to be a "Gene-Father" in exceptional cases.
The original generation of 800 Bloodnamed also had 600 Non-Bloodnamed used as "Gene-Fathers" to expand the gene pool for diversity & it has been done sense then to "refresh the pool".
Yes but Alaric was spawned using TWO non-Clan people. That's far out of the scope of Nicholas allowing 600 randos to diversify the genepool in the first trueborn generation.
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Yes but Alaric was spawned using TWO non-Clan people. That's far out of the scope of Nicholas allowing 600 randos to diversify the genepool in the first trueborn generation.
Which according to Clan records and knowledge, was not the case. His codex shows Vlad Ward as his maternal donor, which is why the message about the McKenna battleship popped up for him.
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Just thought about this: will there be any real Wolves left after whatever war is currently happening? The Wolves set their genelabs and iron wombs in their Empire but now with the Free worlds League launching a full assault I would think the League will shut those down once they conquer said planets (imho the League will just steamroll whatever defense the Empire has left). While I doubt they will go full Kurita and destroy any genetic repositories they find (was Alaric smart enough to carry at least a full copy of those to Terra) This would effectively shut down the creation of Wolf trueborns. Plus the coming battles will see the death of many Wolves. Which makes me think: what will happen to all those sibkos that are currently raised in the Empire? Kept separate from the League or maybe even "adopted" into nomal League families? Or perhaps the most effecient solution: hand them to the Clan Protectorate for safekeeping and education? Redemption Rites saw the "adoption" of Wolf constabularies into the League Admins but now we are also talking about children who were raised very differently.
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Which according to Clan records and knowledge, was not the case. His codex shows Vlad Ward as his maternal donor, which is why the message about the McKenna battleship popped up for him.
Yes but Hellraiser was making the point that Katherine getting the scientists/Seth Ward to allow her to create her little genetic spawn Alaric was normal since at the beginning of the breeding program some non-800 were used as genefathers. We're not arguing on whether or not Alaric Ward is a fraud that most people are unaware of, we're arguing how Katherine was able to convince Seth/those scientists to make a non-Clanner trueborn and then cover it up.
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Just thought about this: will there be any real Wolves left after whatever war is currently happening? The Wolves set their genelabs and iron wombs in their Empire but now with the Free worlds League launching a full assault I would think the League will shut those down once they conquer said planets (imho the League will just steamroll whatever defense the Empire has left). While I doubt they will go full Kurita and destroy any genetic repositories they find (was Alaric smart enough to carry at least a full copy of those to Terra) This would effectively shut down the creation of Wolf trueborns. Plus the coming battles will see the death of many Wolves. Which makes me think: what will happen to all those sibkos that are currently raised in the Empire? Kept separate from the League or maybe even "adopted" into nomal League families? Or perhaps the most effecient solution: hand them to the Clan Protectorate for safekeeping and education? Redemption Rites saw the "adoption" of Wolf constabularies into the League Admins but now we are also talking about children who were raised very differently.
I imagine Alaric will be getting a breeding program going fast, if he's SMART he'll declare new blood houses for any clan warriors who where partiuclarly notable on Terra etc
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It would be a good move, especially any of the League/Lyrans who survived Terra . . . or even RAF abathka from before landing on Terra.
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That might be so but even if he builds the iron wombs on Terra now the first batches of sibkos would be ready in...3166? That is a VERY long time until new Wolf trueborns will come up. And if he recruits more former RAF members into the ranks the Wolves will become more and more IS. Then again he might just rebrand his Wolves as "Star League" and then every member is now a Star League member instead of a member of the Bears or Wolves or Ravens or even IS nation
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1. Possible but we don't know enough I think.
The Ruling Steiner line above Katrina would have have to be a descendant of the original Bloodnamed like Phelan was.
I don't know enough about Steiner lineage to know if the 1st Bloonamed is one of Katrina's ancestors.
The Maternal part works since Katie, Melissa, Katrina are females the way Phelan had to be from Salome Ward & she was her own 3rd cousin or something like that so she had a link on both parents side or something from the fluff.
By my understanding, the Steiner Bloodname (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steiner_(Bloodname)) was founded by Kailen Steiner, an illegitimate son of Paul Steiner - himself a son of Archon Michael Steiner II.
Assuming that Paul was also one of Archon Melissa Steiner's ancestors (which appears to be the case (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Steiner)), that might allow for the kind of distant familial link to be established that worked for Phelan, were one deemed necessary at some point.
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Yes, this was all discussed when Din Steiner was a Star Colonel for a Nova Cat cluster in Path of Glory.
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Just thought about this: will there be any real Wolves left after whatever war is currently happening? The Wolves set their genelabs and iron wombs in their Empire but now with the Free worlds League launching a full assault I would think the League will shut those down once they conquer said planets (imho the League will just steamroll whatever defense the Empire has left). While I doubt they will go full Kurita and destroy any genetic repositories they find (was Alaric smart enough to carry at least a full copy of those to Terra) This would effectively shut down the creation of Wolf trueborns. Plus the coming battles will see the death of many Wolves. Which makes me think: what will happen to all those sibkos that are currently raised in the Empire? Kept separate from the League or maybe even "adopted" into nomal League families? Or perhaps the most effecient solution: hand them to the Clan Protectorate for safekeeping and education? Redemption Rites saw the "adoption" of Wolf constabularies into the League Admins but now we are also talking about children who were raised very differently.
I love the Discworld’s Ankh-Morpork vibe “you have conquered us, you will be assimilated, and we are sorry for what’s about to happen to you.”
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Yes but Hellraiser was making the point that Katherine getting the scientists/Seth Ward to allow her to create her little genetic spawn Alaric was normal since at the beginning of the breeding program some non-800 were used as genefathers. We're not arguing on whether or not Alaric Ward is a fraud that most people are unaware of, we're arguing how Katherine was able to convince Seth/those scientists to make a non-Clanner trueborn and then cover it up.
No.
I was making the point that based on "what we know" that Katie could be allowed to be the "Gene-Father" w/o anything underhanded going on.
Using Vic instead of Vlad was not what I was talking about at all.
Getting that done requires some serious manipulation.
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that might allow for the kind of distant familial link to be established that worked for Phelan, were one deemed necessary at some point.
I'm not sure on that.
Purely going from memory, I thought the Ward founder left behind a child in the IS when he went with Kerensky, that Child was Salome's ancestor.
The Steiner person is not a direct ancestor of Katherine. Would be a many-greats Uncle I think.
But I might be misremembering the part about Ward.
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It wouldn't matter regardless. The Steiner Bloodname was exclusive to the Cobras and remained exclusive to them in the post-WoR era.
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The Nova Cats had a Steiner among their touman.
Therefore at least one slot remained. It's possible that the wolves could have tried to do a capture of the blood name origin Gene materials. That has been done before and how can sometimes get blood names that don't necessarily come from their Clan originally.
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It wouldn't matter regardless. The Steiner Bloodname was exclusive to the Cobras and remained exclusive to them in the post-WoR era.
When have the Clans really balked at their laws stopping them from doing something?
If you can do it, and no one challenges you . . .
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When have the Clans really balked at their laws stopping them from doing something?
points to the failed attempts, plural, of the Grand Council to overturn the Great Refusal legally despite the fact that the Second Star League no longer existed to challenge them over it
points to the Tukayyid truce and the Clans chafing under it so badly that it eventually led to the fracturing of their entire social order with the Wars of Reaving
The Clans balk at this sort of thing all the damn time.
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The Nova Cats had a Steiner among their touman. Therefore at least one slot remained.
They had a warrior. Not the rights to that warrior's genetic legacy. The Nova Cats don't get the rights to the Steiner Bloodname just because they took Jal Steiner as abtakha.
It's possible that the wolves could have tried to do a capture of the blood name origin Gene materials. That has been done before and how can sometimes get blood names that don't necessarily come from their Clan originally.
Except that didn't happen. The Steiner Bloodname was exclusive to the Cobras even after the WoR, which means the Wolves (or more accurately, the Nova Cats in this case) never successfully captured the rights to that Bloodheritage.
And really, if the Wolves somehow did have the Steiner Bloodheritage, does anyone here really think that Katherine wouldn't have been all over that?
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It wouldn't matter regardless. The Steiner Bloodname was exclusive to the Cobras and remained exclusive to them in the post-WoR era.
One of the Shrapnels (IDR which but I was literally just reading thru them the other day) mentioned a new Trial in the IS post-WoR where ‘abandoned’ Bloodrights from the Homeworlds could propagate a new Bloodhouse. One could ‘argue’ that any Steiner Bloodnames in the IS could have done the same. Using that as a basis any ‘future’ Steiner’s could come from the new Bloodhouse, BUT theoretically then any descendant’s of the IS Steiner could use Phelan’s case to argue for being allowed to compete for the Trial of Bloodright (probably in a Grand Melee unless they have a sponsor).
That bunch of hypotheticals however is useless to KSD because none of it happened when she was taken as a bondswoman or when she achieved warrior status.
Alaric’s birth was KSD’s machinations with Seth Ward and ‘publicly’ used Vlad Wards genes (and her own ?) as the donors but in reality used VSD’s as well (or instead I’m not 100% sure offhand). Not per Clan codes and customs at all but KSD was wily and manipulative and got her way. Alarics own public revelation about his lineage muddies the waters but as the old Clan saying goes ‘Might Makes Right’: you don’t like it fight him.
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One of the Shrapnels (IDR which but I was literally just reading thru them the other day) mentioned a new Trial in the IS post-WoR where ‘abandoned’ Bloodrights from the Homeworlds could propagate a new Bloodhouse. One could ‘argue’ that any Steiner Bloodnames in the IS could have done the same. Using that as a basis any ‘future’ Steiner’s could come from the new Bloodhouse, BUT theoretically then any descendant’s of the IS Steiner could use Phelan’s case to argue for being allowed to compete for the Trial of Bloodright (probably in a Grand Melee unless they have a sponsor).
Yes, I'm aware of the Great Reavings article and the Trials of Propagation. And yes, it's a lazy cop-out way to insert random Bloodnames into the mix. Yet there's absolutely no evidence to show that the Steiner Bloodname made that transition, as the only example of a Steiner abtakha is with the Nova Cats, and they 1) aren't Clan anyway and aren't bound by their laws anymore and 2) would be the logical place to see new Steiners pop up, and they haven't. The whole scenario is a huge stretch and, as you said, a moot point anyway.
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TBH I imagine the writers would also prefer for their NOT to be a Steiner blood name (or a davion, kurita, liao or Marik bloodname) from a OOC context it can add some confusion, your averga enoob is going to get confused seeing a Steiner among the clans.
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Yes, I'm aware of the Great Reavings article and the Trials of Propagation. And yes, it's a lazy cop-out way to insert random Bloodnames into the mix. Yet there's absolutely no evidence to show that the Steiner Bloodname made that transition, as the only example of a Steiner abtakha is with the Nova Cats, and they 1) aren't Clan anyway and aren't bound by their laws anymore and 2) would be the logical place to see new Steiners pop up, and they haven't. The whole scenario is a huge stretch and, as you said, a moot point anyway.
The only cases, afaik are either all the Coyotes the Wolves ended up with, Adders in the Horses, or the Jaguars among the Warden Wolves- which bloodnames were recognized by the Crusader Wolves AND let a Jaguar set up a Trial of Propagation to add a heritage (Weavers). Since the Wardens had Moon too . . . makes that bit of Bloodnames in the Hour a bit curious.
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Without quoting anyone, I'm just going to bet a shiny nickel that a Bloodname Trial could only be the absolute death of Katrina S-D. Even Vlad couldn't have rigged all that shit.
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And what would Katherine need with a Bloodname anyway? Her influence amongst the Wolves was incredibly strong as-is, strong enough to pull off the Alaric project, strong enough that she had Khans and Loremasters as allies, strong enough that she continued to enjoy a relatively decent life well past 100 years. What would a Bloodname get her than she didn't already have, other than an early grave (because even IF she managed to survive AND succeed in the Trial of Bloodright, surely she'd become an even bigger target)?
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Without quoting anyone, I'm just going to bet a shiny nickel that a Bloodname Trial could only be the absolute death of Katrina S-D. Even Vlad couldn't have rigged all that shit.
And what would Katherine need with a Bloodname anyway? Her influence amongst the Wolves was incredibly strong as-is, strong enough to pull off the Alaric project, strong enough that she had Khans and Loremasters as allies, strong enough that she continued to enjoy a relatively decent life well past 100 years. What would a Bloodname get her than she didn't already have, other than an early grave (because even IF she managed to survive AND succeed in the Trial of Bloodright, surely she'd become an even bigger target)?
Agreed on all points. Needless risk to her life, and too much attention drawn to her. Her power and influence stemmed from other means.
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Kat's blood name carries political power. She grew up and was taught by knee of her father Hanse Davion and her mother Melissa Steiner-Davion. She may not have the best personality, but she did learn, especially when it comes to the power of a name. That's why she took on the name Katrina versus retaining her Katherine name.
She was doing some serious stuff behind the scenes that a trueborn Bloodnamed warriors of Clan Wolf we're likely not to be expecting. She must have been a wolf among lambs in comparison to their method of politics.
If she had a means she had a way to establish her bloodname even if it's just one off.
The ilKhan can establish new Bloodnames and fluff I've read in more recent novels and other sources suggest Clans can establish new ones if they wish. However I'm a bit foggy with the final wording of how it's done is.
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Question about Anastasia Kerensky. I kind of tuned out on HOTW when it got to the IlClan trial, I know Anastasia showed up at the end to defeat Malvina, and that during the vote for a SaKhan Anastasia was a favorite but bowed out, was she given much characterization or motivation in HOTW or IlClan (I kinda think I already know the answer).
Anastasia in the Dark Age was characterized by two things, A) her impatience which repeatedly bit her and the Steel Wolves in the *ss, and B) her desire to conquer Terra and become the IlClan. As revealed in Shrapnel #2, her Wolf Hunters gamut was A long-term Xanatos gamut to build a new army capable to invading Terra, so while she's happy to be part of Clan Wolf and taking over Terra, I'm sure a part of her is angry SHE'S not the one in the lead. I feel there could be a good IlClan storyline for her becoming Alaric's 'loyal opposition', hoping to supplant him if the opportunity ever arises.
Perhaps she could even gather up those Wolf Hunter/merc commands to build her own loyalist corp. It would be neat to see her go after the Steel Wolves and Wolfkin Keshik, the awkward reunion trying to get them back under her command with the promise of being part of the IlClan.
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Anastasia is the Commanding General of the new SLDF (and IMO, she's the perfect choice for the role, given her long history of fighting against and alongside many different forces, giving her a unique perspective). I think it's safe to say that her priorities have shifted.
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As revealed in Shrapnel #2, her Wolf Hunters gamut was A long-term Xanatos gamut to build a new army capable to invading Terra, so while she's happy to be part of Clan Wolf and taking over Terra, I'm sure a part of her is angry SHE'S not the one in the lead. I feel there could be a good IlClan storyline for her becoming Alaric's 'loyal opposition', hoping to supplant him if the opportunity ever arises.
Perhaps she could even gather up those Wolf Hunter/merc commands to build her own loyalist corp. It would be neat to see her go after the Steel Wolves and Wolfkin Keshik, the awkward reunion trying to get them back under her command with the promise of being part of the IlClan.
The story implies they were gathered to go to Terra- question is as part of the Wolf Clan or as some of the forces with the Dragons & Exiles?
It does make what happened to the Steel Wolf cluster in FWL employ interesting since they were killed out of hand when they ran into the Wolf Clan- at least two stars.
IMO Anastasia's gambit is more reminiscent of her, IMO, paternal grandfather who did something very similar about 100 years before . . .
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The story implies they were gathered to go to Terra- question is as part of the Wolf Clan or as some of the forces with the Dragons & Exiles?
It does make what happened to the Steel Wolf cluster in FWL employ interesting since they were killed out of hand when they ran into the Wolf Clan- at least two stars.
IMO Anastasia's gambit is more reminiscent of her, IMO, paternal grandfather who did something very similar about 100 years before . . .
whom was her paternal grandfather?
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whom was her paternal grandfather?
It's never been stated, but it was implied once or twice that it was someone just as important as Natasha. One of the more popular theories is Phelan.
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It's never been stated, but it was implied once or twice that it was someone just as important as Natasha. One of the more popular theories is Phelan.
They drop enough heavy handed hints that she borrows from Kell actions, such as the breaking up of the Steel Wolves to create 'farm' teams, and with the nod to knowing/researching her ancestors it is the simplest explanation for her paternal line. Combined with her desire to outperform those same 'ancestors' as well as 'rebelling' against them by espousing Crusader attitudes . . .
IMO Phelan is the simplest explanation, especially since we know the Kerensky Bloodhouse has created sibkos with Kell as the genefather. I tried last night to recover Shrapnel #1-4 to check Lana's story b/c IIRC she is not the first sibko crossing Kell & Kerensky genes.
BUT . . . yeah, IMO it is still a headscratcher why they decided no Kells in 3077 . . . Ranna had won Natasha's name. As of 3058 when a sibko could have been started, Morgan was still around & kicking. And other Jaguar bloodnames re-established after Op Bulldog would have happened . . . and so would the establishment of Brahe & a sibko produced from it.
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I think her actions in the later Dark Age era with Alaric shifted her priorities. I’m not sure how far she had the Steel Wolf farming teams planned in advance and whether or not she planed them for a larger Steel Wolf faction or Clan Wolf faction. I believe at some point she shifted allegiance fully to the new Wolves, partially to destroy Malvina Hazen and partially because of Alaric and his record/planning/goals.
I was just talking about the remaining Steel Wolf Cluster with people at Adepticon and how weird it is that the Wolves did not allow them back. I personally think that’s a mistake and that the new Wolves could have used them. A rebuilt Steel Wolf Galaxy (along with a Wolf in Exile Galaxy) could go a long way in helping the new SLDF at Terra. Not to say anything about if they had allowed the Wolfs Dragoons lol. IMO (despite the awesome plot twist and thirty pieces of silver moment) I believe these two event were one of Alarics miscalculations and he could have really used them.
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They drop enough heavy handed hints that she borrows from Kell actions, such as the breaking up of the Steel Wolves to create 'farm' teams
If this "farm teams" thing was stated somewhere, it's absolutely a retcon (and wouldn't be the first retcon we've seen in Shrapnel). The Wolf Hunters novel made it pretty clear that these were legitimate and deeply traumatic schisms because they did not accept the direction that Anastasia wanted to take them. This was all shown in the novel through both external and internal dialogue many, many times.
I was just talking about the remaining Steel Wolf Cluster with people at Adepticon and how weird it is that the Wolves did not allow them back.
Why is that weird? It was established pretty much from the get-go that the actual Clans didn't view these Republic paramilitary groups as actual Clanners, but cosplayers. Hell, it started with Anastasia herself, where it was noted that she was the only legitimate Wolf in the Steel Wolves' ranks. (To be clear, I'm just stating how they were perceived, not arguing if it's actually true or not.) Was it a mistake? Sure, it could be perceived that way. It's also 100% in-character. Alaric didn't even let the Dragoons back in, and they actually earned it.
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Why is that weird? It was established pretty much from the get-go that the actual Clans didn't view these Republic paramilitary groups as actual Clanners, but cosplayers. Hell, it started with Anastasia herself, where it was noted that she was the only legitimate Wolf in the Steel Wolves' ranks. (To be clear, I'm just stating how they were perceived, not arguing if it's actually true or not.) Was it a mistake? Sure, it could be perceived that way. It's also 100% in-character. Alaric didn't even let the Dragoons back in, and they actually earned it.
Which could always be solved through Trials of Position. We know some Steel Wolves DID rejoin Clan Wolf proper though, such as Kyle Wolf and Gwin Fetladral.
But Alaric is desperate for troops, and I think the Steel Wolves would jump at the chance to rejoin Clan Wolf. If Anastasia could snag them and the Wolfkin Keshik, that's almost two clusters more of troops.
Alternatively, the Wolf Empire could hire/"trial" for them, I'm sure most Steel Wolves would jump for that.
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Then comes the plot twist: the Steel Wolfes fight for the Wolf Empire only to get steam rolled by the Dragoons who absorb the survivors and fill them with their rage against the "traitorous Clan Wolf"
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I don't have my books in front of me, but wasn't grabbing her other wayward associated units when Anastasia was independent part of her tasks she was doing. Not unlike what Morgan Kell did with the Hounds in 3020s
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I don't have my books in front of me, but wasn't grabbing her other wayward associated units when Anastasia was independent part of her tasks she was doing. Not unlike what Morgan Kell did with the Hounds in 3020s
Although mentioned I don’t know if the Defection should be seen as the same light as Anastasia disbanding the Steel Wolves. I also don’t have the books but I felt she burned her bridges with some of the unit. Shrapnel has mentioned that the Wolf Empire does have an open door with talented warriors but some are walking away.
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If this "farm teams" thing was stated somewhere, it's absolutely a retcon (and wouldn't be the first retcon we've seen in Shrapnel). The Wolf Hunters novel made it pretty clear that these were legitimate and deeply traumatic schisms because they did not accept the direction that Anastasia wanted to take them. This was all shown in the novel through both external and internal dialogue many, many times.
Thing is, that POV is established by one character who was cast off as a singleton. Yulri did not seem as upset as Serena (?) though the POV for that portion of the story was Jazz.
While what happened with Jacob's Juggernauts was a group who took off and approached a merc unit. Problem with the Juggernauts is they took in a separate culture without totally making sure they assimilated and seem to have been pulled towards the Clan culture as much as they may have shifted the Clanners.
NOW, this is not to say it was not a retcon. We never got the inside POV look as to why Anastasia did it. I DO agree it was a retcon to adjust for the "new" direction of IlClan since you had the whole Varnoff Fetladral trying to kill Anastasia thing happen.
Btw, Kyle Wolf? I would suggest that he fell in action in the same battle as Anastasia, but survived to be a bondsman unlike the Mad Dog pilot Alaric carbonized. The ASF Star Colonel who took over the remains of the Steel Wolves after outing the mechwarrior's duplicity had several stars of Clan warriors killed when she tried re-approachment.
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But Alaric is desperate for troops, and I think the Steel Wolves would jump at the chance to rejoin Clan Wolf. If Anastasia could snag them and the Wolfkin Keshik, that's almost two clusters more of troops.
Alternatively, the Wolf Empire could hire/"trial" for them, I'm sure most Steel Wolves would jump for that.
They tried, per the Steel Wolves article in Shrapnel, and the Wolves not only saw them as "dezgra bandits", but killed several Stars of Steel Wolf warriors outright. They seem to be more than content with their current arrangement in the FWL, even defeating the Spirit Cats on Stewart when the Purifier Cluster came to claim the world for the ilClan.
While what happened with Jacob's Juggernauts was a group who took off and approached a merc unit. Problem with the Juggernauts is they took in a separate culture without totally making sure they assimilated and seem to have been pulled towards the Clan culture as much as they may have shifted the Clanners.
Nope. There is nothing written anywhere that even remotely suggests that this was the case. Apparently Shrapnel confirms this was actually the case.
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It is a Shrapnel story, in fact it is in #1 called Wars & Rumors. Yulri's flame Jazz and the business manager Simien Fox, both of the Canid Cooperative, approach Jerry Jamison (sorry I always confuse them with Jacob's) and his Elemental special friend Fiona Cooper make a deal with the two as Anastasia's emissaries set in 21 June 3149. I THINK it happens on Galatea, but I cannot access #1-#4 right now. They "activate Operation Appleseed" which is just another in BT's bad operation names- IE you are not supposed to guess what it leads to from the name!
In the book Wolf Hunters, Tal Sender leads a mixed nova binary to Jamison's Juggernauts- star of mechs, star? of BA, star of light vehicles, and infantry star?- where they seek to join the ranks of the mercs. It is odd as they left Anastasia 'upset' over her actions with the Steel Wolves in forming the Wolf Hunters that they go to another merc- though the Clan mindset could see it as Anastasia was dishonest, at least these mercs hold no pretensions. The Clan officers suggest cross training & integration even more than than Jamison intended as the troops swap out to let the mercs experience Clan equipment from inside.
Conclusion-
So yeah, Anastasia seeded her Steel Wolves- that were deemed worthy- among other merc commands in order to foster bonds which would raise a crop of warriors she could call as a personal army.
Btw
Anastasia was taken bondsmen in Bonfire of Worlds.
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So yeah, Anastasia seeded her Steel Wolves- that were deemed worthy- among other merc commands in order to foster bonds which would raise a crop of warriors she could call as a personal army.
Fair enough. I hadn't read this particular Shrapnel story before, but it sure does appear to be the case after reading it just now. It's even written by the same author, which I normally would consider a plus because of consistency (something BattleTech has sorely lacked in many areas over the decades), but in this case...
The whole thing reads like a massive retcon, because none of this was even implied in Wolf Hunters, and one that never actually went anywhere because it bore no real fruit after this story. Which is a shame, because this could've made HotW/ilClan better than... well, the dreck we got. All of this could've made for a fantastic novel instead of a Shrapnel short.
I wonder if this did end up being affected by the clear shift in direction during the lead-up to ilClan. In fact, given the fact that we've had more than one shift in direction since Wolf Hunters was printed, it's probably little wonder that this one slipped uner my radar. Things have been all over the damn place over the last two decades of BattleTech continuity.
Thanks for pointing me to this one, Colt. I loved Wolf Hunters, and you know I adore Anastasia, so this was a fun little story to read.
Btw
Anastasia was taken bondsmen in Bonfire of Worlds.
I always mix up the two because Masters of War was right about the time I checked out (I really hated the way Stackpole wrote the Wolf Hunters). LORD, that book was bad.
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Yeah, I agree that it was PROBABLY not the intent but you have that curious case of Star Captain (should have been a Nova?) Tal Sender leading his supernova binary to a merc unit that got hit hard, had a rep for honesty, and where his 50-100 Clan warriors would not disappear into the unit culture. But yeah, it bucks the trend you got with Xera & Nikola Demos with what happened to large fragments.
I think the POV intentionally did not include Anastasia b/c without her internal reasoning the way it was written left several openings & Verena's (?) feelings could be dismissed later on if they needed to take the fragments in a different way.
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Man, the more I read this, the more I think this should've been a whole damn novel, with Killiany writing it. This would've been an excellent continuation of "Wolf Hunters", and it would've been so nice because it would've not only given us something Wolf-centric but not Alaric-centric in a time when alternative perspectives were desperately needed, it would've established Anastasia even more as not being Natasha 2.0 AND given a solid foundation as to why she was made Commanding General of the SLDF.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of this one, Colt. "Wolf Hunters" is my second-favorite BattleTech book ever (second only to "A Rending of Falcons"), and it was really nice getting to revisit some of these characters again after so long.
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Seconded that non-Alaric centric Wolf fiction would be a godsend right now for everyone.
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These posts are intreasting because I was painting up some clan wolf Beta Galaxy mechs and was thinking about it, and it occurs to me, the wolves are just about the only major faction that has, best I can detirmine, never featured in a non spine novel featuring character from the faction as a protag. You don't have many (if ANY) stories about clan wolf in the classic "small unit defending a world agaisnt an invader" mold that most factions get a few of.
I THIIIINK the wolves got one recently in the book "Lethal lessons" but yeah, not a lotta those. It's a shame really, there's a LOOOT of clan wolf history that would be RIPE for a novel.
Like the refusal war could get whole libraries written about it. and the Wolf/Wolf in Exile split was honestly kinda wasted, like a story where two sibkins where split by the clan split and end up fighting each other... that had some intreasting potential.
Maybe someone'll start writing stories like that for Sharpnal, and Clan Wolf will get the kind of writer it so despirately needs, someone to inject some real character into the clan beyond the constant monologues of "I'M THE BEST NO ONE IS BETTER THEN I!"
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Seconded that non-Alaric centric Wolf fiction would be a godsend right now for everyone.
Alaric would be fine in more fiction IF he gets written as the villainous protagonist he's supposed to be, like in Bonfire of Worlds or Masters of War. But we got a straight protagonist in all the lead up to HOTW books and that was just... dumb. He's not a hero, he's a villain. To the Wolves sure he's a hero, but form anyone reading the setting he's clearly not.
These posts are intreasting because I was painting up some clan wolf Beta Galaxy mechs and was thinking about it, and it occurs to me, the wolves are just about the only major faction that has, best I can detirmine, never featured in a non spine novel featuring character from the faction as a protag. You don't have many (if ANY) stories about clan wolf in the classic "small unit defending a world agaisnt an invader" mold that most factions get a few of.
There was that short story about Wolf warriors left behind in the Empire defending against Dragoons I think, not Redemption Rites, the other one...
Honestly though, aside from the Jihad, Clan Wolf has never had a story like that because... they always get to be top dog. Can't be an underdog when nothing permanently or long-term cripples your faction, and you can recover overnight from setbacks.
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Hopefully the upcoming novel supposed to be centric on Alaric will set record straight on what character is. He is antihero.
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Hopefully the upcoming novel supposed to be centric on Alaric will set record straight on what character is. He is antihero.
It's being written by Michael C., who's done a stellar job with characters, especially in his Highlander duology. I have high hopes.
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Alaric would be fine in more fiction IF he gets written as the villainous protagonist he's supposed to be, like in Bonfire of Worlds or Masters of War.
Alaric was a villain in Bonfire? Masters of War he was ego, I will grant that but a villain?
Honestly though, aside from the Jihad, Clan Wolf has never had a story like that because... they always get to be top dog. Can't be an underdog when nothing permanently or long-term cripples your faction, and you can recover overnight from setbacks.
You are confusing the Falcons with the Wolves. The Crusader Wolves were intentionally gimped from 3058 to 3130s.
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Alaric was a villain in Bonfire? Masters of War he was ego, I will grant that but a villain?
You are confusing the Falcons with the Wolves. The Crusader Wolves were intentionally gimped from 3058 to 3130s.
Really? The only major setbacks the Crusader Wolves got in that period were the Hell's Horses exacting revenge for the 3064 shenanigans and perhaps them loosing a few worlds to the Ghost Bears in the same year. And don't mention the Jihad because the Jihad hit nearly all factions equally. Heck the Wolves somehow managed to keep the Horses from advancing further despite them having lost a huge chunk of their industry and also allegedly having nearly depleted all their storages at one point trying to stop the Horses
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Hopefully the upcoming novel supposed to be centric on Alaric will set record straight on what character is. He is antihero.
Not really. Antihero is supposed to be a character that is either flawed in a way that’s objectionable to the average person at the time written or motivated by “unheroic” reasons, but their goals are sympathetic or accidentally good. HotW Alaric wasn’t written as flawed, he’s presented as near flawless in that novel. (DA Alaric is different, he’s an actual character). Per the novel he has no vices, no deep seated character flaws, and his motivation is the “lofty goal of re-establishing the glorious Star League” and everyone he speaks to converts to his cause.
Ignoring the absolutely baffling framing of HotW, Alaric is a villain. His goal is power. Nothing more. He’s calling it a Star League, but does anyone in existence actually think Alaric intends for it to be a group of near equals looking for an era of peace? No, he’s going to attack the known universe until he’s forced them all under his thumb. His actions towards his goals reprehensible - abandoning his civilians, state sponsored terrorism, attacking and annihilating a sovereign nation which has only lashed out against the wolves in defense.
Alaric is a villain. And if he’s the protagonist, then a villain protagonist. That alone doesn’t make him an irredeemably bad character. There’s excellent villains and villain protags.
But again, we’re talking about HotW Alaric as the character appearing in novels going forward now. DA Alaric is a different beast and an actual character and can be treated as, if not a hero, an antihero.
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Dark Age Alaric was neither a hero nor an antihero, as seen in the Free Worlds League arc. He was an opportunist full of hubris from the beginning but one who had greater vision than other Clanners. I guess you could use him in the Greek sense of a hero, but be sure that you have read the Iliad and Odyssey in whole.
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Dark Age Alaric was neither a hero nor an antihero, as seen in the Free Worlds League arc. He was an opportunist full of hubris from the beginning but one who had greater vision than other Clanners. I guess you could use him in the Greek sense of a hero, but be sure that you have read the Iliad and Odyssey in whole.
Agreed. I certainly wouldn’t characterize Dark Age Alaric as a hero or even an anti-hero, either. He straight up murdered Seth Ward and covered it up so he could seize power in his Clan, and he did so for his own selfish gain. Even his murder of Katherine was an undeniably villainous act, despite her own villainous status, because he did so because of his perception (correct or not) that she was a threat to his own ambitions.
And even ilClan Alaric isn’t any better, questionable framing in HotW notwithstanding. He let Chance Vickers murder Stone in his bed (and I’ve no doubt that he’d have done it himself if he weren’t in the throes of grappling with the truth bombs Stone had dropped on him), and he forced the Dominion into internal turmoil because they weren’t bowing deeply enough to him. And I’m sure there’s plenty more to come.
He is exactly the villain that Katherine created him to be.
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Well he is certainly a copy of Katherine Steiner-Davion with the same issues she had: creating enemies left and right by betraying them when their use has run out. So who will be the next Victor to actually bring him down?
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My guess is someone we've not seen yet
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So who will be the next Victor
Hopefully no one. Victor is not someone I particularly care to see repeated.
That said... let Anastasia take him out if need be.
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Really? The only major setbacks the Crusader Wolves got in that period were the Hell's Horses exacting revenge for the 3064 shenanigans and perhaps them loosing a few worlds to the Ghost Bears in the same year. And don't mention the Jihad because the Jihad hit nearly all factions equally. Heck the Wolves somehow managed to keep the Horses from advancing further despite them having lost a huge chunk of their industry and also allegedly having nearly depleted all their storages at one point trying to stop the Horses
3058 half the Invasion Wolf Clan, admittedly mostly second & garrison level troops, fell into a black hole.
The Wolves lost not just the worlds the Horses under Malavi Fletcher were garrisoning, but Star Colonel Dirk Radick fell for a ploy causing the Crusader Wolves to lose MORE Rasalhague world. Including one that just had a factory come online for IIRC Locust IIC production.
FMU set 3067 and TPTB forgot about the Crusader Wolves flagship. It had to be errata'd in.
A whole galaxy was absorbed into the Horses, not that Vlad really cared too much the Wardens were removed from his Clan except that whole half the touman disappearing in '58 & calling Harvest Trials. Then after the touman takes a beat down, Delta is "gifted" to the Republic further stripping troops from their pre-Jihad shortage.
A mech that was held in almost as much esteem as the Founder's Bloodname, the Orion IIC, some how was at least 2 (unless Tal Sender's was returned to stock from Burton's experimentation) let go after the Jihad to the Republic b/c IMO fact checking failures.
All the other Clans in the IS were left with OmniMech factory production after the Jihad- Jade Falcons, Ghost Bears, Nova Cats, and Warden Wolves. The SharkFoxes had Twycross but built their production, and I am not sure when the Horses ended up with their Omni factories after their move but they did it on worlds the Crusaders had mostly abandoned. Same with Ravens, not sure when they started producing Omnis. Heck- the Falcons (Butler), Bears (Alshain), Ravens (Quatre Belle), SharkFoxes (Chainlaine & more), Warden Wolves (Arc Royal), and maybe the Cats had the facilities to service their surviving warships & jumpships.
See, I do not see Alaric as a villain in Bonfire for a simple reason- I do not see any of the leaders in BT really as villains, even if they could be considered "black hats." For all that Daoshen is nuttier than a fruitcake, he is a FUNCTIONAL fruitcake that- and I really appreciated this in his appearances on Terra & after, the author understood the idea of that the absolute monarch of a state IS the embodiment of the state- in the course of normal morality takes actions that would be immoral. But it does not apply to a monarch, which the Khans immaterial of the name are de jure.
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See, I do not see Alaric as a villain in Bonfire for a simple reason- I do not see any of the leaders in BT really as villains, even if they could be considered "black hats." For all that Daoshen is nuttier than a fruitcake, he is a FUNCTIONAL fruitcake that- and I really appreciated this in his appearances on Terra & after, the author understood the idea of that the absolute monarch of a state IS the embodiment of the state- in the course of normal morality takes actions that would be immoral. But it does not apply to a monarch, which the Khans immaterial of the name are de jure.
Just because Daoshen has deluded himself and the people around him into seeing him as the embodiment of the Capellan state does not mean he's suddenly exempt from morality. If anything, him being a functional fruitcake as you put it makes him more culpable for his actions. He's also cognizant enough to know to hide his incestuous relationship with Ilsa and his parentage of Danai. And as far as Alaric goes... if he were exempt from morality, he wouldn't have had to cover up his murder of Seth Ward or Katherine the way that he has; even within the context of his own deeply-screwed-up society and culture, those were villainous acts of straight-up murder. Alaric and Daoshen are undeniably villains, despite whatever they tell themselves to justify their actions.
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I'll never fault someone for liking a villainous character or faction in a tabletop game. Games are meant to be a form of escapism, and that's ok. But that's why I call Alaric a villainous protagonist. A straight villain is just a bad guy the main characters try to defeat or overcome. A villainous protagonist is a main character we read and follow who is still doing evil things.
Alaric murdered his Khan unjustly for his own ambition. He murdered his own mother to protect his ambition. He's executed POWs, killed civilians, and has led multiple conquests on people who have never done anything to harm him (Republic). While we can understand his motivations and see from his perspective why he might think he's justified doesn't mean what he's done isn't villainous. But he's also a main character which can let us forget that. Alaric in Masters of War and Bonfire of Worlds was done excellently, he was a magnificent b*stard, but you still kind of wanted to root for him. Alaric in Children of Kerensky and HOTW (up until the last few chapters) was a lame character, he was treated as a regular protagonist who was doing horrific things, but we were expected to cheer for him. He's better (Not really) in comparison to Malvina, which we were told a bazillion times, but the real Protagonists of HOTW, the Republic, were just speedbumps for Alaric.
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snip
And this is exactly why I love Malvina Hazen, most especially in “A Rending of Falcons”. A villainous protagonist whom we were allowed to sympathize with to a degree, someone who was shaped to be what she was by the society that spawned her just like Alaric was, but whose actions were also unquestionably bad. A complex villainous protagonist that BLP had to retcon into a child abuser to make Alaric look better by comparison, when he’s every bit as much a villain as she. Lord, HotW was so clumsy and awkward.
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This makes me wonder how they will portray Alaric in the novels to come. The Ilkhan trial paints Alaric in a slightly better light then Malvina (which is NOT hard btw) but he already has created enough enemies for himself that I am not sure how to "redeem" that. Maybe as Tasha said Anastasia will oust him down the road. In a setting that David Lear and Stone feared when they tried to weaken the influence of Belle Lee when they discussed who should be the first Commanding General of the then forming RAF. Though unlike say the SLDF civil war or FedCom civil war we now have two sides that are both equal bad: the Confederation and the Wolves. Usually you have sides where you can at least say "Yes those are the 'good' guys". We don't have that here per se. We have one war criminal fighting another.
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This makes me wonder how they will portray Alaric in the novels to come. The Ilkhan trial paints Alaric in a slightly better light then Malvina (which is NOT hard btw) but he already has created enough enemies for himself that I am not sure how to "redeem" that. Maybe as Tasha said Anastasia will oust him down the road. In a setting that David Lear and Stone feared when they tried to weaken the influence of Belle Lee when they discussed who should be the first Commanding General of the then forming RAF. Though unlike say the SLDF civil war or FedCom civil war we now have two sides that are both equal bad: the Confederation and the Wolves. Usually you have sides where you can at least say "Yes those are the 'good' guys". We don't have that here per se. We have one war criminal fighting another.
Hey, no matter how loses we (non-Wolf or Capellan fans) win. Obviously the IlClan will be around for a while. I think the real Wolf story will be around Alaric's subordinates.
Chance Vickers
Anastasia Kerensky
Stephanie Chistu
Prohaska Moon
Jockeying for power, trying to support Alaric as he starts to blunder. As much as I'm sad that the Republic was killed, so long as the Wolves are quagmired for a while and have to pay for that victory, I'll find that an interesting story.
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Don't discount Tara Campbell. While she is now a Falcon she is still a Republican at heart. Should Alaric or even her own Khan start acting like Malvina we might get a "Praetorian Guard rebellion". And then we have some high former Republican like Jonah who might get a new role to play as well. Or maybe even Alaric's own "children" one or two decades down the line
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Don't discount Tara Campbell. While she is now a Falcon she is still a Republican at heart.
Hard to be a Republican when there's no Republic. :laugh: And I don't foresee any of that happening anyway. Stephanie Chistu and Tara are going to get along like gangbusters and we've seen no indication that Alaric is going to take a turn for the genocidal.
I think the real Wolf story will be around Alaric's subordinates.
I think it's a huge leap at this point to think that Alaric isn't going to be front-and-center for years to come. The ilClan era has literally just started and it's hilarious to me to see so many folks doomsaying Alaric's downfall when we've absolutely no indication that that's in the works.
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Jockeying for power, trying to support Alaric as he starts to blunder. As much as I'm sad that the Republic was killed, so long as the Wolves are quagmired for a while and have to pay for that victory, I'll find that an interesting story.
Just because the Wolves cajoled an enfeebled Devlin Stone into declaring the Republic disbanded doesn't mean the Wolves suddenly have the power to make that a reality on any number of worlds that could make up a possible RotS remnant. As in all things Clan, one needs to have the ability to impose their will on their foes, and right now the Wolves are lacking that.
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Except for one known former Paladin joins the League. RAF commands outside of Terra imploded when they heard the surrender. The Ares toting refugees gave it up and joined IIRC Fox backed mercs. And Galatea is flooded with former RAF who decided to move on.
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Yeah the Republic is more or less dead as those that might have uphold it's spirit are either dead, MIA, have joined the Wolves or other states / formed mercenary units. The Wolves on the other hand now have to pick up the pieces and quick as they are in essence surrounded by enemy states as their "home state" will most likely not survive the next years (or even months if the League manages to gather a steamroll of an assault)
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Given how things got destabilized and really lack of transportation, I can't think of anything people would have gathered a convoy of Jumpships to truck off to periphery established colony. Wall would prevented any one escaping once writing on the wall be came clear. Especially how they worked out how wall actually worked. Use a KF core kill a JumpShip.
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We don't know how many more Ghost Knights there were who can organize things, transport assets can be hired, and also if the RotS vets who survived joined merc units or formed their own, I would be disappointed if they weren't wanting to find Houses who desired to strike at the Wolves while they are still weak from eating the Republic on Terra and the Jade Falcons.
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There’s always the CapCon. :laugh:
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There’s always the CapCon. :laugh:
The Free Worlds League and Lyran Commonwealth are the immediate candidates, with the Federated Suns in third place. The Draconis Combine may actually jump up soon due to the fact that the Coordinator is going to genuinely need them and be forced to pretend to be slightly more favorably disposed toward them. I would place the Capellan Confederation somewhere between Clan Cloud Cobra and Clan Star Adder on who they should sign up with.
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The Free Worlds League and Lyran Commonwealth are the immediate candidates, with the Federated Suns in third place. The Draconis Combine may actually jump up soon due to the fact that the Coordinator is going to genuinely need them and be forced to pretend to be slightly more favorably disposed toward them. I would place the Capellan Confederation somewhere between Clan Cloud Cobra and Clan Star Adder on who they should sign up with.
I figured the laughing emoji at the end would indicate that I was joking, but alas...
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I figured the laughing emoji at the end would indicate that I was joking, but alas...
I got a blank square.
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When the forums had the last 505 error, they never reinstalled the old animated emojis. I think someone has to ask them be put back in.
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There’s always the CapCon. :laugh:
Talk about strange bedfellows - former RotS mercs and the Cappies! :drinking01:
But in all seriousness, I just can't wait for IKEO to see what the situation is outside of our speculating.
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Speaking of IKEO do we have a in-universum date where it continues. From the last Sourcebooks we are currently in late summer 3152 right? Would the book start there? Or perhaps give a more vision of how the occupation of Terra went and then basically go from there like the hunt for still active Ghost Knights, former key Republic personnel like Levin and Harwell while also getting scattrered reports of how the Wolf empire gets slowly devourted by the League and Confederation (if we count conquered Prefecture X worlds as Wolf empire) Or rather a point right after Dominion Divided where perhaps the Ilkhan finally gets the dire news that his possible reinforcemtns are actually waging a war against the Combine while his homebase is under attack plus the Confederation has now cut into their supply lines? From all I know is that he should have gotten the situation reports from Othar but in Empire Alone he never replied and the only communication Othar gets is at the end of Redemption Rites which basically means "You are on your own!"
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I've always assumed IKEO will be the same general time period as the other books and cover the Terran corridor, the area around terra just before and after the ilclan trial
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We simply don't know yet and are going to have to wait for the book to come out.
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With the League on full war footing, it should not be a slow advance. Petr has always been an interesting wildcard; he should remain an intriguing watch as could Othar if played correctly. There are a lot of potential scenarios for that region of space.
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With the League on full war footing, it should not be a slow advance. Petr has always been an interesting wildcard; he should remain an intriguing watch as could Othar if played correctly. There are a lot of potential scenarios for that region of space.
This of course assumes something doesn't happen to stop the FWL advance, though I'm not sure what could short of the wolves beating them to the punch, or the details of Jessica's death coming out and forcing the FWL to attack the capcon
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or the details of Jessica's death coming out and forcing the FWL to attack the capcon
What did the CapCon have to do with Jessica's death? Or are you saying the FWL would attack the Capellans to keep from getting caught up in another civil war?
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The only thing the CapCon seems to have been tied to were the Marian raids from Gibraltar against the League and the Magistracy. Jessica allegedly was killed by an assassin from House Selaj (the old rulers of Regulus). Of cvour4se it could have been the Capellans though for what ends? Just because? I can see the League invasion into the empire derail if the Lyrans interfere (they should also have the information that the empire is basically undefended) or the Clan Protectorate interfering. Otherwise I can see the empire collapsing fast with the Dragoons sacking Gienah and basically right after that the general assault is called on the entire Empire. Heck Redemption Rites ends a few weeks after the general assault has been ordered already and Marotta Kerensky only knows that the Dragoons managed to wrestle a handful of worlds from the empire but NOTHING else.
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The capellans IIRC actively interfered in the investigation, there's no smoking gun but thsoe Mask agents actions where damning eneugh that I could see it forcing the FWL's hands if it got out to the right people, keep in mind I'm not saying it should happen but if they wanted to contrive something to derail the FWL's planned invasion that'd be a possiable way to do it
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The Capellans interfering with the League is as normal as anything else. They are a Successor State and other Successor States do not want them to thrive. The Capellans have a vested interest in the League not being strong. The Capellans feel the same about the Federated Suns and are only trying to feign an alliance with the Draconis Combine out of animosity for the Suns. The Lyrans simply overextended themselves to the point of being inconsequential aside from their naked opportunism.
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I don't see anything in Shattered Fortress that mentions the Capellans in any capacity re: Jessica's assassination.
But this topic is best discussed somewhere else, methinks; this is the Wolf thread.
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The League worlds held by the Wolf Empire are simply too valuable to justify switching fronts. Furthermore, I doubt the operational security around Daoshen's plan to invade Terra is so great that the League is unaware of it even if they may not know specifics. Remember also that the League has the strategic mobility to finish off the Empire and shift fronts if necessitated within a fair amount of time, that asset has been its greatest strength historically.
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Regardless of what happens with the League assault into the Empire one thing is for certain: the Empire won't be able to support alaric in the short term. Considering that Othar is forced to "draft" sibko members that are (by Clan standards) too young for trials must be hurting. Especially considering how they already lost a good chunk of manpower to the brush war that was already lingering. Heck the Dragoons wiped out one of his premier clusters and seriously damaged the Keshik Othar build. In a sense it is similar to what Amaris situation was after he had taken the Hegemony but this time the Empire is the supporting partner of captured Terra. Only to loose this base most likely. Heck if the LEague manages to capture Themopolis and Keystone that's a huge chunk of Mech lines suddenlyin Marik hands (despite the Wolves now having access to Terras industrial might but this might needs a steady stream of raw materials). Plus the Wolves on Terra have basically no way of repelnsihing their own touman unless they want to fill their army with Terrans
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So moving onto a differant subject..
Clan Wolf's Beta Galaxy, they have a tan and grey scheme, we sometimes see them with red striping but not always, even in the same source book sometimes you see a mech with it and without.
So... random thought, could the red striping be something that bloodnamed warriors do?
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Sounds plausible to me, especially given that we've seen other examples of Bloodnamed warriors in other Clans able to give their machines a little extra flair.
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Sounds plausible to me, especially given that we've seen other examples of Bloodnamed warriors in other Clans able to give their machines a little extra flair.
So with that in mind I think I'm going to start calling those stripes "blood stripes"
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So moving onto a differant subject..
Clan Wolf's Beta Galaxy, they have a tan and grey scheme, we sometimes see them with red striping but not always, even in the same source book sometimes you see a mech with it and without.
So... random thought, could the red striping be something that bloodnamed warriors do?
What sourcebook is this?
I've never heard of Red Stripes for Beta before.
Maybe it was some sort of "appropriate camo" that most units also note using.
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What sourcebook is this?
I've never heard of Red Stripes for Beta before.
Maybe it was some sort of "appropriate camo" that most units also note using.
It’s not super distinct, but the paint example in the Tukayyid Scenario book for Wolf Beta Galaxy has some bits of red trim on the top half
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It’s not super distinct, but the paint example in the Tukayyid Scenario book for Wolf Beta Galaxy has some bits of red trim on the top half
but only on one example. others are without. so the red trim likely means something
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I have been flipping through the Clan Spaniel book and there was a small section about distributing the series (or rather a continuation of the series) through the now conquered Republic (well Republic worlds) by 3153 as a way to educate children. My question is would that even work? Considering that especially on Terra they have access to huge libraries / archives I somehow doubt that this series would have any chance especially since it depicts the "invaders" as the good guys. Even if you enforce it as the only series to be shown on tri-vid how would they be able to stop other shows or distribuition of older comic series / cartoon series. Heck from the TRO 3150 Republic book it seems the old Roadrunner clips are still a thing on Terra
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I'm not sure how much you know about child psychology or childhood development. But the more you learn about this area the more you realize that the things children are exposed to at a very young age have an outsized impact on their development as they age.
There is a growing body of research that tells us what children are exposed to (or experiences they've had, like whether someone read books to them at ages 2-5 or not) has a strong correlation to some surprisingly outcomes later in life.
So if they can show it, or make it part of an education curriculum. Or mess with the algorithms to make sure it's being popped up as recommended content for children, by children, for children, over say that old Roadrunner cartoon. It would have some degree of impact.
Also, if Clan Wolf is engaged in this kind of thing, it isn't probably ONLY this one cartoon. It's probably a multi-pronged approach across different age groups and in different formats. One cartoon by itself may not do a lot. But three cartoons over here, a few books over there, a few ads, efforts to put some Terrans and Clansmen side-by-side at work or in a community so they start to see each other as just people and not just stompy 'mechs. A comprehensive approach would likely have an impact yes.
Versions of this have been depicted across so many scifi and historical shows. The adults don't like the invaders and perhaps are part of a resistance movement even. But the child or children are going to school every day and being exposed to the invaders' version of events, plan for the future, and depiction of themselves (aka propaganda). So as the adults continue to view the invaders as the invaders, the child or children are being subverted into thinking the invaders are actually friends, they aren't that bad, they are good even. Sometimes it goes so far that the child even turns in the adults as traitors as part of the story.
This is an incredibly common portrayal of this kind of thing. Enough so that I think most BT players wouldn't bat an eye at seeing it happen here. Especially if the writers explained it well.
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Similar to Stone's Peace initiatives after the fall of the WoB ?
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Also while there's huge libraries of other stuff, who cares? There's huge libaries of old TV and sure we all saw Gilligan's island reruns as kids but it was the new current stuff that was big. trying to keep your kid from seeing that is going to be pretty hard. I rememebr as a kid sneaking over to a friends house to watch terminator 2, which my parents thought was too violent for me
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There is one thing about having the choice to watch it or have it shoved down your throat. That was my original assumption. Terra is not like the Clan homeworlds where you were basically starved of entertainment. Unless of course they also flood other entertainment avenues that are a hallmark of Terra like the virtual worlds and so on.
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Why would they be starved of entertainment?
Clan Spaniel was the most popular kids show (across all Clans) but it doesn't mean it was the only kids show
Especially if you take into account ones who were popular locally and not often sold to other Clans
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The Clan homeworlds weren’t starved of entertainment. See page 49 of WoK for an in-depth look at their media practices, which vary by Clan and by caste and extend far beyond Clan Spaniel: warriors get military biographies and docu-dramas of great battles, scientists get science-related programming, and the other three castes get programming familiar to the Inner Sphere’s denizens, everything from cooking shows to soap operas to documentaries to news broadcasts. Granted, these things are all heavily censored and tightly controlled, but to say they’re starved of entertainment isn’t at all accurate. The only real difference is that Spheroid media tends towards commercialization and Clam media tends towards information and indoctrination.
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I hear on the midnight programming of the Science Caste channels they occasionally ran programs on mech repo.
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The Clan homeworlds weren’t starved of entertainment. See page 49 of WoK for an in-depth look at their media practices, which vary by Clan and by caste and extend far beyond Clan Spaniel: warriors get military biographies and docu-dramas of great battles, scientists get science-related programming, and the other three castes get programming familiar to the Inner Sphere’s denizens, everything from cooking shows to soap operas to documentaries to news broadcasts. Granted, these things are all heavily censored and tightly controlled, but to say they’re starved of entertainment isn’t at all accurate. The only real difference is that Spheroid media tends towards commercialization and Clam media tends towards information and indoctrination.
and even then that may be slowly changing given the sea foxes are talking about merchandizing in a sidebar. I bet in the new adventures Polly upgrades to a Savage Wolf.
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I hear on the midnight programming of the Science Caste channels they occasionally ran programs on mech repo.
I hear they also play a board game called TechDroidWars. Its two six-sided dice and a lot of MRE crackers and laboratory distilled liquor. Make the best Fusionaires you ever tasted.
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We do have a century of game time to see how things evolve with the Ilclan and the worlds it ends up keeping.
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and even then that may be slowly changing given the sea foxes are talking about merchandizing in a sidebar. I bet in the new adventures Polly upgrades to a Savage Wolf.
To be fair merchandizing of Clan items isn't a new thing. The Recguide for the Peregrine mentions a small "chibi" plush model of the Peregrine called Uhu which regularly shows up in Mech cockpits and other places. Which isn't the only one in the series but it seems one of the more popular items.
Perhaps I was a bit unclear when I mean "entertainment-starved" but from what I read it seems more that even Clan entertainment caters to the education and indoctrination rather then "pure" entertainment. Perhaps something more akin to arcades or virtual worlds which (from what I found mind you) seem to be rather absent from Clan worlds (though might exist in their OZ's). Remember, Chandrasekar Kurita began dealing with the Clans and he didn't sell them high tech items but rather consumer electronica, toys and other consumables. Stuff that was rare among the Clans.
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Circling back to the real point of the question. You presented this like there are two options. Option 1. It is forced down people's throats. Option 2. It's added to the libraries of stuff and people may not see it because of how large those libraries are.
There are other options. Curated content. Promoted content. Marketed content.
Probably need to bring in a Terran Marketing/Advertising Firm.
You see this every day in the real world. A thing is promoted, it's hyped, buzz is created around it. Then surprise surprise, lots of people go watch it.
Same thing here. So people are exposed to it, and plenty do actually go and watch it.
This isn't an either/or scenario. There are paths forward that would allow Clan Wolf to do this without it feel like they are injecting this directly into people's eyeballs through a syringe.
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To be fair merchandizing of Clan items isn't a new thing. The Recguide for the Peregrine mentions a small "chibi" plush model of the Peregrine called Uhu which regularly shows up in Mech cockpits and other places. Which isn't the only one in the series but it seems one of the more popular items.
Perhaps I was a bit unclear when I mean "entertainment-starved" but from what I read it seems more that even Clan entertainment caters to the education and indoctrination rather then "pure" entertainment. Perhaps something more akin to arcades or virtual worlds which (from what I found mind you) seem to be rather absent from Clan worlds (though might exist in their OZ's). Remember, Chandrasekar Kurita began dealing with the Clans and he didn't sell them high tech items but rather consumer electronica, toys and other consumables. Stuff that was rare among the Clans.
Hitting a sweet spot between education, indoctrination and entertainment is not that hard
Clan entertainment industry has been in business in the Inner Sphere for a century now, they would have gradually evolved and adapted to new environment without issues, they had more than plenty of time
As for consumer items it's less about availability and more about novelty
Clans have consumer electronics, toys and all other other stuff one might want but variety would on the lower end, different products from different manufacturers will always be interesting to people
Take a kid from the usual toy store to a new one with completely different toys and watch it go bananas
As for videogames they would have plenty of them available at home (game consoles, computers or online games) but arcade cabinets would be something completely new and a popular import item, you are spot on there
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And I'm betting that it's just one part of selling the Ilclan/Third Star League to everyone.