Poll

Wolfhound vs. JagerMech

JM6-S JagerMech!
WLF-1 Wolfhound!
Draw / Too Close to Call.

Author Topic: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!  (Read 13668 times)

Zombyra

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FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« on: 29 January 2012, 01:38:13 »
From my continuing interest in a few match-ups that are between less than similar machines:

JM6-S JagerMech -bv/901- vs.
WLF-1 Wolfhound -bv/949-

The Odd-Man-Out Heavyweight vs. the Lightweight Prodigy!

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« Last Edit: 29 January 2012, 01:40:40 by Zombyra »

HavocTheWarDog

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #1 on: 29 January 2012, 01:46:28 »
Stay behind cover while closing, continually run and get in jagermechs back when possible and the wolfhound could win.(maybe)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #2 on: 29 January 2012, 02:07:07 »
My money's on the Wolfhound.

The Jager's throw power is just too weak.  The Wolfhound can easily take a few hits as it closes- a minimum of 3 shots is required to pierce the arms and side torsos on it, and the Center Torso and legs won't be breached in anything less than 4 shots.  Meanwhile, 2 shots from the Wolfhound's Large Laser will go internal on every location but the Center Torso, while a single medium laser will penetrate the Jager's side torso rear locations.  Once that happens, there's a 50% chance on any successful critical to a side torso of hitting an ammo bin.
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Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #3 on: 29 January 2012, 02:14:59 »
Not to mention a single Large Laser hit will go internal on the arms on the first hit.  Neither mech has alot of crit padding, just about any hit beyond basic mech systems is a weapon, but three of those on a Jaggermech are ammo, and the side torsos are only padded by a single medium laser each.

The Wolfhound in comparison is about half the Jaggermech's size, and carries a quarter more of it's armor.

Note for back shot boosters, the Jaggermech can flip arms, so half his firepower can still reach you, albeit with a likely minimum range penalty.

Demos

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #4 on: 29 January 2012, 02:23:44 »
Wolfhound, hands down.

With 50% more spped you canclose quickly and have a battery of three ML vs. 2 ML and AC with minimum range. Also 20% more armor (but less internal). The higher THM should also help.
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Guitardian

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #5 on: 29 January 2012, 09:00:46 »
Wolfhound seems a far more capable contender for a 1-on-1 fight. A single Jagermech is just target practice for anything but the lightest, weakly armed and armored mechs. It is good at lance battles, as it has tougher friends to prevent others from bum rushing it without great cost, but 1-on-1 with nobody to stop him from getting to you without a threat, he'll get a couple of shots in and pray for a good crit, and then its just over. punch through anywhere with 2 or 3 hits, and wait on that ammo to explode, arm to fly off, etc. Mech's that cant beat the Jagermech 1-on-1 would be a better name for this thread: ummm...  yeah. They were never meant to go alone. Very quirky mech but I don't dislike them (ugly enough too, innit?)  I just know they were not meant to be used like this any more than an urbanmech is meant to go running around in the open plains.
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House Davie Merc

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #6 on: 29 January 2012, 11:14:40 »
Wolfhound .

The Jagermech has a fatal combination of slower speed,low armor,
and most of it's weapons have a minimum range .

In a team setting it can get to live long enough to contribute .
In a duel there's no "more important targets " to focus on .

I've seen Jagermechs get downright victomized quickly by light mechs
with less firepower then the Wolfhound .

mutantmagnet

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #7 on: 29 January 2012, 12:17:30 »
This op deserves more than a Vlad Tepes award.

LastChanceCav

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #8 on: 29 January 2012, 13:16:25 »
Wolfhound. Is it me or do these fight seem to be getting a little lopsided ...

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Orin J.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #9 on: 29 January 2012, 13:23:31 »
a little lopsided? i've seen executions carried off more even-handedly.  #P
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Guitardian

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #10 on: 29 January 2012, 14:44:20 »
what's a vlad tepes award?
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mutantmagnet

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #11 on: 29 January 2012, 15:33:00 »
When a versus post pits a a superior force against an inferior one, and it is so unquestionably lopsided it can be construed as cruel and unusual.

I already handed it out in the Cicada/Targe thread. You were even the next post after I made my own.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2012, 19:17:12 by mutantmagnet »

willydstyle

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #12 on: 29 January 2012, 15:35:40 »
The wolfhound is faster, has more armor, similar forward-facing firepower (23 max damage on the WLF-1, versus 24 on the JM6-S), but the Jagermech has minimum range mods on its guns which are going to really, really disadvantage it when the fight closes, which it will, since it's horribly outmaneuvered.  The Jagermech not only equips the least weight-efficient weapons in the game, but then doubles up on them, and it shows. This fight isn't even close.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #13 on: 29 January 2012, 15:57:42 »
After thinking about it, the only Succession Wars era Heavy mech that I think would actually have a fight that would be likely to go either way against a Wolfhound is the Archer.  Everything else except for the Jagermech has the Hound beaten badly enough in firepower and/or armor that the Wolfhound would have to be extremely lucky to have a chance.  The Archer's weapon array and weapon placement means that once the Wolfhound gets within the LRM minimum range, the Archer's got a serious disadvantage, but any time it's able to get far enough away from the Wolfhound to effectively use its LRMs it can inflict serious pain.
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Guitardian

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #14 on: 29 January 2012, 17:06:36 »
I had a lot of oldtech fight night ideas but I never knew who's origional idea it was, didn't want to step on anyone's toes if it was their baby.

 There's been some really good matchups, and I ahven't been checking in much lately, but the last two were just ludicrous. The Targe thing, they aren't even in the same tech! sure give the Cicada ferro Fibrous too (he aint lacking for crits) and ER some of his stuff too and ask me again, but that was just silly. This one too, a close in brawler versus a standoff lance member, on a small restricted board? Gduh!

I wanted to propose these ones: Charger vs. Vulcan, Clint vs. Jagermech, Blackjack vs. Vindicator, Assassin vs. Jenner, Enforcer vs. Vindicator, Thud vs. Grasshopper, Trebuchet vs. Centurion... so many wierd combos to consider.. why these offbalanced ones?
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Zombyra

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #15 on: 29 January 2012, 17:57:20 »
I had a lot of oldtech fight night ideas but I never knew who's origional idea it was, didn't want to step on anyone's toes if it was their baby.

 There's been some really good matchups, and I ahven't been checking in much lately, but the last two were just ludicrous. The Targe thing, they aren't even in the same tech! sure give the Cicada ferro Fibrous too (he aint lacking for crits) and ER some of his stuff too and ask me again, but that was just silly. This one too, a close in brawler versus a standoff lance member, on a small restricted board? Gduh!

I wanted to propose these ones: Charger vs. Vulcan, Clint vs. Jagermech, Blackjack vs. Vindicator, Assassin vs. Jenner, Enforcer vs. Vindicator, Thud vs. Grasshopper, Trebuchet vs. Centurion... so many wierd combos to consider.. why these offbalanced ones?

I think the input of "What mech do you think would win?" Is the least informative and least interesting part of the discussion.  I don't mind, of course, if that's all people have to say, but in my mind it's barely worth noting.  And fights between mechs that are virtually equals--why even bother.

On the other hand, people's reasons why one or the other might have an advantage, of what the balance in odds are, what kind of role luck might play, what kind of role terrain might play, weapons choice, range, maneuverability, if it will be a short fight or a long fight; the choice of "what's most important" or "what won't make any difference at all" is far more germane to the discussion.

In my experience what's weird to the overall range of the Fight Night threads is how often strategies or factors that purportedly weigh heavily in one battle are ignored or even outright contradicted in subsequent threads.

Regards my specific choice in this case, I think I severely underestimated the appreciation people have for the Wolfhound, and the ire drawn by the Jager.  If I wanted a better discussion, I should have chosen a less well-loved opponent for the JM.
« Last Edit: 29 January 2012, 17:59:39 by Zombyra »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #16 on: 29 January 2012, 18:52:16 »
It's not that the Wolfhound is so well loved, it's just that the Jager's so poorly built for dueling that it's got huge disadvantages that the Wolfhound, a very good duelist, can easily exploit.  The Wolfhound is 50% faster, carries more armor, and is equipped with weapons that have no minimum range or ammo.  Oh, and it's got an entire location (the left arm) that can be shot off with no effect on its firepower.
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Southern Coyote

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #17 on: 29 January 2012, 18:56:03 »
This is a true David vs. Goliath fight.  The JagerMech should be the clear winner by tonnage alone, but I've seen solo Wolfhounds drop much more powerful opponents than a JagerMech. 

mutantmagnet

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #18 on: 29 January 2012, 19:26:07 »
Regards my specific choice in this case, I think I severely underestimated the appreciation people have for the Wolfhound, and the ire drawn by the Jager.  If I wanted a better discussion, I should have chosen a less well-loved opponent for the JM.

What Vegas odds were you giving the Jaegermech? You would have been better off with the Rifleman.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #19 on: 29 January 2012, 20:03:12 »
This is a true David vs. Goliath fight.  The JagerMech should be the clear winner by tonnage alone, but I've seen solo Wolfhounds drop much more powerful opponents than a JagerMech.

Which is why tonnage alone is not an indicator of how well a mech will perform.
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willydstyle

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #20 on: 29 January 2012, 20:32:22 »
Which is why tonnage alone is not an indicator of how well a mech will perform.

Zing!

Kovax

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #21 on: 30 January 2012, 08:56:00 »
The only chance that the JM has is if it can manage to get into a position to kick the lighter 'Mech.  Either that, or pray for a TAC.  Any other situation is an easy win for the WLF.....that is, unless it's actually one of those nasty JM variants in disguise.

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #22 on: 30 January 2012, 09:58:03 »
the fight in this case is slanted heavily towards the wolfhound,  I can see the Jager coming out on top thanks to the often forgotten about medium lasers in the Jagers torso, and some VERY lucky grouping on the autocannon shots; there are just to many variables to rely on for me to consider it too close to call though.
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Jim1701

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #23 on: 30 January 2012, 12:05:40 »
I initially voted for the Wolfhound but I really didn't think about the heat issues that this model has.  With only 10 SHS it can only fire its long OR short range weaponry without getting into serious heat problems.  The Wolfhound still has the easier task but I don't think it would be the cakewalk a lot of people are thinking. 

bakija

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #24 on: 30 January 2012, 12:18:23 »
I initially voted for the Wolfhound but I really didn't think about the heat issues that this model has.  With only 10 SHS it can only fire its long OR short range weaponry without getting into serious heat problems.  The Wolfhound still has the easier task but I don't think it would be the cakewalk a lot of people are thinking.

The 10 SHS on the Wolfhound are fine for what it is gonna do; it is either going to be firing the LL at middle/long ranges (4-15) while running for 0 net heat or it is going to be firing the 3xML at close range (1-3) while running for 1 net heat. If it wins initiative and gets a great shot (i.e. it gets to run behind its opponent) at close range, it can fire everything at once for 19 heat while also running to get there. On the follow up turn, it just runs away at -1 (?) move, sinks 8 heat, and is ready to go for the next turn.

If the Wolfhound spends the whole game standing still at R12 or so, the Jagermech has a chance. If the Wolfhound aggressively runs in and engages from close range, the Jagermech has no hope (well, other than the always possible "I accidentally blew up your gyro with a lucky AC2 crit..."). As the Wolfhound is significant faster than the Jagermech, the math does itself.

Kiesel

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #25 on: 30 January 2012, 13:45:32 »
Even ignoring the obvious advantages a 6/9 skirmisher is going to have in a 1v1 fight against a 4/6 fire support design that relies on a screening force to keep the range open, this fight wasn't even a good matchup BV wise.
48 BV may not sound like much, but it's still 5% of their BV, and the BV imbalance is in favor of the fast short range design.

Also look at where the jagermech is spending it's BV
460.2 on durability (383.5 before adding speed mods)
368.48 on firepower (329)
72.8 on physical attacks (65)

compared to the wolfhound
522.6 on durability (402)
373.5 on firepower (249)
52.5 on physical attacks. (35)

So realistically, the Jagermech is wasting 73 more BV on a physical attack capability of which it will get practically no use, perhaps 1/10 games optimistically. 
which is like paying the BV for a NARC launcher & an AMS in the same fight. (since no missile launchers are used by either party)

Essentially the effective BV is actually closer to 836 vs. the 933 of the wolfhound. (the wolfhound pays 17.25 for a rear firing laser which will do about as much good as the Jager's physical attacks)

Fear Factory

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #26 on: 31 January 2012, 04:32:31 »
Give the Jager some specialty ammo.
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Kiesel

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #27 on: 31 January 2012, 08:46:16 »
specialty ammo isn't going to do squat...  It is balanced to not be any more powerful than standard ammo.

willydstyle

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #28 on: 31 January 2012, 09:29:09 »
specialty ammo isn't going to do squat...  It is balanced to not be any more powerful than standard ammo.

Nah, some precision ammo would do a couple of nice things: lighten up those ammo bays, since the faster the JM runs out the better, and will also increase the JM's chance to do some fairly significant damage as the WLF closes, assuming the player gets a spot with decent LoS.

Fear Factory

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Re: FIGHT NIGHT! Saturday Edition: Wolfhound vs. JagerMech!
« Reply #29 on: 31 January 2012, 14:26:26 »
Nah, some precision ammo would do a couple of nice things: lighten up those ammo bays, since the faster the JM runs out the better, and will also increase the JM's chance to do some fairly significant damage as the WLF closes, assuming the player gets a spot with decent LoS.

Just unload.  It won't overheat.  When the bays are empty focus on physicals.
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