Author Topic: What to do with the HVACs  (Read 3933 times)

Goose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • … the Laws on his tail, burning for home …
    • Home of HeavyMetal Pro
What to do with the HVACs
« on: 17 July 2019, 17:42:13 »
Even I have a hard time getting the chance to blow up from use; What could you change the draw-back to that wasn't a total gimmie? :-\

Only grenades when snake-eyes is confirmed by a 6-or-less?

Is down for the rest of the game on a simple snake-eyes (no brew-up; easy repair)?
Goose
The Ancient Egyptian God of Fractional AccountingAnimare Tai-sa Shikishima
I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

Luxan

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 88
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #1 on: 17 July 2019, 18:12:36 »
Honestly why do they even need such a flaw. The only advantage of HVACs is the longer range which is more than balanced out by the increased weight, increased heat, decreased ammo/ton, and the smoky discharge.

Compare this to LB-Xs which also offer a range increase (though not as much) and extra flexibility with cluster rounds but don't suffer from any flaws.

I would propose two options, in order of preference:
1) Leave the construction stats of HVACs as they are, but drop the misfire mechanic from the game rules entirely.
2) Keep the misfire mechanic but use the weight and space of standard ACs.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37059
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #2 on: 17 July 2019, 18:38:26 »
Option 2 sounds interesting... it's almost like making HVAC rounds specialty ammunition...  In fact, that's not a bad idea in and of itself...

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1433
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #3 on: 17 July 2019, 18:45:58 »
Even I have a hard time getting the chance to blow up from use; What could you change the draw-back to that wasn't a total gimmie? :-\
You mean what you'd change with the HVAC, rule-wise?

Assuming the goal is to make it an actual weapon rather than a gimmick, I'd remove the explosion drawback.  Fin.

Even without the random catastrophic detonation, the HVAC series is just not a good weapon.  No alternative ammunition available.  20% reduction in the ammo.  2 tons heavier (HVAC-2, HVAC-10) or 4 tons heavier (HVAC-5).  More heat (HVAC-5, HVAC-10).  Significantly more expensive ammo.

HVAC-5 vs Light Gauss Rifle: The LGR deals much more (60%) damage and runs much cooler (1 vs 3) with 1 more round of firing for the same weight.  HVAC-5 is only 1 crit less bulky if one does not account for heat sinks.  That makes the HVAC's only practical advantages C-Bill cost, not having a minimum range, and 3 hexes longer "long" range.

HVAC-10 vs Gauss Rifle: The GR deals much more (50%) damage and runs much cooler (1 vs 7) with the same number of rounds per ton.  The GR outranges the HVAC-10 by 1/3/2 hexes.  HVAC-10 is only 1 crit less bulky if one does not account for heat sinks.  That makes the HVAC's only practical advantages C-Bill cost, not having a minimum range, and weight (by one ton).

HVAC-2 vs ELRM-5: The HVAC-2 is 2 tons heavier and slightly bulkier but runs less hot than the ELRM-5.  With that said, the ELRM deals about 50% more damage than the HVAC-2 on average (3 vs 2),  90 missile in its ammo bay vs 30 two-point shots for the HVAC/2 (The -2 got really unfairly hit here), the ELRM-5 can IDF (very useful for considering the ranges), and the ELRM-5 handily outranges the HVAC/2 to boot.  The HVAC/2 has a much more generous minimum range, but you're not going to mount either to knife fight.

So yeah, the HVAC series didn't need some gimmick to suck, so I don't know why it was ever put there in the first place.

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1433
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #4 on: 17 July 2019, 18:51:52 »
Option 2 sounds interesting... it's almost like making HVAC rounds specialty ammunition...  In fact, that's not a bad idea in and of itself...
Specialty HVAC ammunition?  That's a neat idea.
Say, increases the Autocannon's base range by whatever amount, at the cost of having only 40/16/8/4 shots per ton?  Simple enough to do.  Fluff it as a heavier autocannon round that utilizes a "rocket booster" in the shell to further accelerate it to hyper velocity or something (to avoid high pressures in the barrel which required the heavier autocannon in the first place).  I might just have to write something up with that...

Luxan

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 88
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #5 on: 17 July 2019, 18:59:48 »
So yeah, the HVAC series didn't need some gimmick to suck, so I don't know why it was ever put there in the first place.

Yes, exactly.

Goose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • … the Laws on his tail, burning for home …
    • Home of HeavyMetal Pro
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #6 on: 17 July 2019, 19:22:17 »
You mean what you'd change with the HVAC, rule-wise?
:D I speak Engrish Right Good.

Yes: What to change, to switch it from an "anti-gimmie" to "taken-seriously" …
« Last Edit: 21 July 2019, 13:29:54 by Goose »
Goose
The Ancient Egyptian God of Fractional AccountingAnimare Tai-sa Shikishima
I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4068
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #7 on: 17 July 2019, 20:58:59 »
They gotta not blow-up. And the ranges need to be tweaked to make them useful.

I'd just hand-waive it by saying the originals were just *prototypes*, the *production-Models* are MUCH better!
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10427
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #8 on: 17 July 2019, 22:08:10 »
it's a nasty problem-the Gimmick of exploding is core to the designer's concept, but in playable practice, it's not something most players would deliberately use.  The obvious intent was "Masc for cannons" but in practice, HVAC's are something you wouldn't even see in Solaris rigged fights, because nobody who isn't desperately improvising with no resources would use.  (In a sense, HVAC's are like pipe-shotguns or zip-guns in terms of their relative reliability.)

There were fan-proposals for something similar or akin to the rest of the concept all the way back in the 90s, most of which were probably better balanced as options that a player would actually take (or a nation would actually USE), some of which have been retreaded in this thread already by a new generation of players in reaction to what Catalyst came up with.

The issue here, is that the flaw is the reason the weapon was created (meta-reason).

This isn't like MASC, which a failure might be bad, but the driver/crew/unit can still survive, nor is it a balancing of risk/reward like TSM (where the danger of overheating and the bad results of the scale are entirely in the hands of the operator).  This is a weapon that absolutely will eventually explode randomly.

with a very high likelihood of rendering the unit it's installed on a pile of smouldering scrap with a dead crew.

particularly in the canon application.  (HVAC-2 on a helicopter? really??)

HVAC is a 'joke weapon', it already (as pointed out) has sufficient balancing factors without the self-detonating random fuse, it exists as a sort of passive-aggressive rude gesture to a certain type of player, not as a serious option around which a player can build a unique and interesting force or doctrine.

in a sense, it's slapping a certain type of player down to get them to quit asking for shit.  The chosen spotlight application really drives this point home.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4068
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #9 on: 18 July 2019, 09:46:39 »
it's a nasty problem-the Gimmick of exploding is core to the designer's concept, but in playable practice, it's not something most players would deliberately use.  The obvious intent was "Masc for cannons" but in practice, HVAC's are something you wouldn't even see in Solaris rigged fights, because nobody who isn't desperately improvising with no resources would use.  (In a sense, HVAC's are like pipe-shotguns or zip-guns in terms of their relative reliability.)

There were fan-proposals for something similar or akin to the rest of the concept all the way back in the 90s, most of which were probably better balanced as options that a player would actually take (or a nation would actually USE), some of which have been retreaded in this thread already by a new generation of players in reaction to what Catalyst came up with.

The issue here, is that the flaw is the reason the weapon was created (meta-reason).

This isn't like MASC, which a failure might be bad, but the driver/crew/unit can still survive, nor is it a balancing of risk/reward like TSM (where the danger of overheating and the bad results of the scale are entirely in the hands of the operator).  This is a weapon that absolutely will eventually explode randomly.

with a very high likelihood of rendering the unit it's installed on a pile of smouldering scrap with a dead crew.

particularly in the canon application.  (HVAC-2 on a helicopter? really??)

HVAC is a 'joke weapon', it already (as pointed out) has sufficient balancing factors without the self-detonating random fuse, it exists as a sort of passive-aggressive rude gesture to a certain type of player, not as a serious option around which a player can build a unique and interesting force or doctrine.

in a sense, it's slapping a certain type of player down to get them to quit asking for shit.  The chosen spotlight application really drives this point home.

That's...rather a lot of inference there.

I don't want to cast aspersions...but I don't see a BattleMaster on your Avatar anywhere. Do you have some kind of insider status to support that? or maybe you're just extremely good at reading between the lines?

Max respect here, but you're reading A LOT into this very niche subject for someone who isn't on the inside of how the HVAC was written and why. So, as a guy with very, very poor name recognition; ARE you a BT insider?
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Orin J.

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2785
  • I am to feared! Aw, come on guys...
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #10 on: 18 July 2019, 10:02:54 »
Even if you do fix all the gimmick drawbacks, is there really[/i] much in the way of demand for "autocannons, but chunkier and hotter with slightly better range"?
The Grey Death Legion? Dead? Gotcha, wake me when it's back.....
--------------------------
Every once in a while things make sense.


Don't let these moments alarm you. They pass.

Hptm. Streiger

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 968
  • 3d artist, spread sheet warrior, KTF
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #11 on: 18 July 2019, 11:13:56 »
Even if you do fix all the gimmick drawbacks, is there really[/i] much in the way of demand for "autocannons, but chunkier and hotter with slightly better range"?
for CVs without Gimmick drawbacks the HVACs are a good idea especially for vehicles without FE.

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1433
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #12 on: 18 July 2019, 11:59:36 »
for CVs without Gimmick drawbacks the HVACs are a good idea especially for vehicles without FE.
Even without the gimmicks, Light Gauss Rifles, Regular Gauss Rifles, and ELRMs are much more appealing than HVACs of all flavors.

Hptm. Streiger

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 968
  • 3d artist, spread sheet warrior, KTF
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #13 on: 18 July 2019, 15:49:43 »
Even without the gimmicks, Light Gauss Rifles, Regular Gauss Rifles, and ELRMs are much more appealing than HVACs of all flavors.
all this trouble because some one was not very good in correcting a typo. The Gauss stats are obvious missing a Zero in the column heat. 8)

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25570
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #14 on: 18 July 2019, 16:01:09 »
I'd go with the UAC approach - a 2 means the chamber cracks, or suchlike, which needs field/factory repairs, but renders it unusable on the gameboard for the remainder of the game.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4068
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #15 on: 18 July 2019, 17:24:11 »
Even if you do fix all the gimmick drawbacks, is there really[/i] much in the way of demand for "autocannons, but chunkier and hotter with slightly better range"?

I'd like them, particularly for better range brackets on DS and Space Stations.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Goose

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
  • … the Laws on his tail, burning for home …
    • Home of HeavyMetal Pro
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #16 on: 18 July 2019, 17:29:55 »
I'm dubious anyone waited for MWO to come along to inspire a house rule on Ultras' jamming …

But how 'bout calling snake-eyes a dud, and just letting the next round load, next turn? Mark off the ammo, don't worry about a live shell on the ground in front of the (miss)firing unit: Just continue play next round …
« Last Edit: 18 July 2019, 20:31:30 by Goose »
Goose
The Ancient Egyptian God of Fractional AccountingAnimare Tai-sa Shikishima
I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught.

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1433
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #17 on: 18 July 2019, 19:25:39 »
I'd like them, particularly for better range brackets on DS and Space Stations.
LGR gets into the extreme range bracket and is generally much better than the HVAC series.

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4068
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #18 on: 18 July 2019, 20:33:00 »
LGR gets into the extreme range bracket and is generally much better than the HVAC series.

Bracket, yes; but there are still hex ranges in those brackets. If a HVAC/2 or 5 reached farther, I'd take it.

Another idea could be giving the HVAC's AP rules within medium range.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1433
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #19 on: 18 July 2019, 20:51:10 »
Bracket, yes; but there are still hex ranges in those brackets. If a HVAC/2 or 5 reached farther, I'd take it.
Not with standardized Aerospace brackets they don't.
Your weapon rated for extreme ranges has a maximum range of exactly 25 hexes.  Doesn't matter if it's a Light Gauss Rifle, a HVAC/5, or an ELRM.

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10427
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #20 on: 18 July 2019, 22:59:03 »
That's...rather a lot of inference there.

I don't want to cast aspersions...but I don't see a BattleMaster on your Avatar anywhere. Do you have some kind of insider status to support that? or maybe you're just extremely good at reading between the lines?

Max respect here, but you're reading A LOT into this very niche subject for someone who isn't on the inside of how the HVAC was written and why. So, as a guy with very, very poor name recognition; ARE you a BT insider?

I can look at the stats and the arrangement, same as anyone else.  when you consider how much thought goes into every OTHER weapon and equipment they've produced since 1985?  This was clearly designed as a prank, and there are also the responses from back when it was first introduced and people pointed out the obvious logical flaws in an otherwise pretty reasonable setting-at least, wrt the tech tree.

I've also been part of the community for a while.  (check with the admins if you're unsure.)  This wasn't an accident, it was carefully thought out before they published, they KNEW the reaction it would draw.

Hence, the gimmick is central to the item's concept, and the one feature unlikely to be changed with subsequent iterations of rules updates.  remember also this was coming off of several years of developing the Jihad, and dealing with loud (and often unfair) criticisms not only of the tech implemented from Wizkids, but also of tech that already had standing (like Ultra autocannons) by players who wanted their cake in edible form minus any drawback whatsoever.

If it worked, without the drawback, it wouldn't have been intro'ed as a Cappellan product, it would have been a RoTS or Clan or even WoB advancement.  The obvious tie to the Cappies was clearly a response to the criticism aimed at how the 'Cappellans are getting munchy' after the Coleman books came out, but on a meta-scale, it's also a clear reaction to minmaxer or munchkin players.

so it's clearly a statement.  yes, it's all inference, but the conditions line up, the at-release reactions do too.  remind you, it's been several years since then, but HVACs were discussed, including the explodey-flaw, back when it was released, and the answers from "Insiders" were rather flippant at the time...because that's the JOKE.

It isn't supposed to be good. it's supposed to offer a marginal advantage with a severe disadvantage.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

beachhead1985

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4068
  • 1st SOG; SLDF. "McKenna's Marauders"
    • Kilroy's Wall
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #21 on: 19 July 2019, 08:01:46 »
Not with standardized Aerospace brackets they don't.
Your weapon rated for extreme ranges has a maximum range of exactly 25 hexes.  Doesn't matter if it's a Light Gauss Rifle, a HVAC/5, or an ELRM.

Just the Capital weapons then?

Yeah, I'd be niching them into CVs if and only if the 2 and 5 had longer range than the LGR.

I can look at the stats and the arrangement, same as anyone else.  when you consider how much thought goes into every OTHER weapon and equipment they've produced since 1985?  This was clearly designed as a prank, and there are also the responses from back when it was first introduced and people pointed out the obvious logical flaws in an otherwise pretty reasonable setting-at least, wrt the tech tree.

I've also been part of the community for a while.  (check with the admins if you're unsure.)  This wasn't an accident, it was carefully thought out before they published, they KNEW the reaction it would draw.

Hence, the gimmick is central to the item's concept, and the one feature unlikely to be changed with subsequent iterations of rules updates.  remember also this was coming off of several years of developing the Jihad, and dealing with loud (and often unfair) criticisms not only of the tech implemented from Wizkids, but also of tech that already had standing (like Ultra autocannons) by players who wanted their cake in edible form minus any drawback whatsoever.

If it worked, without the drawback, it wouldn't have been intro'ed as a Cappellan product, it would have been a RoTS or Clan or even WoB advancement.  The obvious tie to the Cappies was clearly a response to the criticism aimed at how the 'Cappellans are getting munchy' after the Coleman books came out, but on a meta-scale, it's also a clear reaction to minmaxer or munchkin players.

so it's clearly a statement.  yes, it's all inference, but the conditions line up, the at-release reactions do too.  remind you, it's been several years since then, but HVACs were discussed, including the explodey-flaw, back when it was released, and the answers from "Insiders" were rather flippant at the time...because that's the JOKE.

It isn't supposed to be good. it's supposed to offer a marginal advantage with a severe disadvantage.

Alright, seems petty to me and rather punitive. But I see the logic in what you're saying.
Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

These, in the day when heaven was falling,      Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
The hour when earth's foundations fled,         They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
Followed their mercenary calling,               What God abandoned, these defended,
And took their wages, and are dead.             And saved the sum of things for pay.
     
A.E. Housman

Retry

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1433
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #22 on: 19 July 2019, 09:39:27 »
Just the Capital weapons then?

Yeah, I'd be niching them into CVs if and only if the 2 and 5 had longer range than the LGR.
I thought the Capitals have their own standardized ranges too unless you used a certain rule somewhere to differentiate them (maybe Interstellar Ops), but I could be wrong.

Daryk

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 37059
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #23 on: 19 July 2019, 15:58:44 »
Strategic Operations, actually... page 115 refers.

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: What to do with the HVACs
« Reply #24 on: 28 July 2019, 06:02:35 »
I totally get the base concept - show the borders of some technology, tell of would-be munchkins, create a few niche units about as relevant as a harvester mech...
But then the second point if completely undermined by the presence of ELRMs.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.