Author Topic: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs  (Read 10107 times)

ErikModi

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Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« on: 27 May 2020, 05:07:40 »
So. . . I'm finally dragging myself kicking and screaming out of the Clan Invasion era.  I'm reading Wars of Reaving right now, and a question is popping up.

Much is made, especially early in the book, how lots of Homeworld Clans are rushing and Trialing to get access to ProtoMech technology once the Smoke Jaguars unveiled it.  To the point it became a kind of technological gold rush, a "ProtoMech fever" if you will.  The question is. . . why?  What about ProtoMechs made so many Clans go to such great lengths to obtain the technology so they could start building their own?  Was it just that it was something new that they didn't have and so they wanted it?  Is the lesser resource cost invested in a ProtoMech compared to a BattleMech that important (ignoring for the moment the requirement of EI-enhanced pilots and attendant short life expectancy)?  Actually, let's not ignore that and ask; did these Clans not think through vast personnel investment ProtoMechs require?  Are ProtoMechs just that effective on the battlefield, and do they remain so in keeping with Clan combat doctrine (zellbrigen in particular)?  What made so many Clans look at this Smoke Jaguar innovation and say not "Meh, cool science, bro," and instead say "WANT!  TAKE!  HAVE!"

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Re: Lat 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #1 on: 27 May 2020, 05:16:23 »
Purely personal view, a combination of two main things:
1) Protomechs used much less resources than 'mechs, and were meatier than BA
2) Protomech pilots came from the slush heap of failed Aero & other Warrior sibkids.

So the "bang for buck" proposition appealed to harrassed Clans in their traditionally resource-limited command economies (compared to the Inner Sphere, the Clans live hardscrabble lives on a small handful of marginally habitable and resource-poor planets).

And a certain measure of "this is something unique to the Clans" from the line devs of that period.  This last is me hazarding a guess.

I would concede that Protomechs beat assault BA in terms of mobility, even if the lighter Protos are similar in terms of armament & armour. The high end Protos though can be fairly meaty.
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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #2 on: 27 May 2020, 08:58:04 »
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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #3 on: 27 May 2020, 09:35:08 »
The original ProtoMech pilots were washouts from other phenotypes, but several bloodlines were quickly developed by the heavier users (Blood Spirits and Cloud Cobras).  Still, it's a good use of lesser pilots, and given the choice a lot of warrior sibco members would jump at the chance rather than test down to a lower caste.

While they do use EI, it's not as damaging due to drugs, training, and the previously mentioned new phenotype.  They still end up in the same place as MechWarriors and Elementals, but more slowly, with years more on average.  For the Clans back in the Homeworlds that's more than enough time to make a name and be selected for the breeding program.
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ErikModi

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #4 on: 27 May 2020, 11:31:01 »
I don't necessarily mean effectiveness on the tabletop. . . though that's certainly part of it.  From a cursory search here, I gather ProtoMechs are most effective at, well, exactly what you'd think they'd be. . . wolf pack tactics to harass and bring down larger targets, hit-and-run, rushing in to deal damage then running away before they get damaged in return, that sort of thing.  Which seems to be the exact opposite of how the Clans prefer to do battle, especially the more conservative ones that rose to prominence early in the Wars of Reaving.  Which makes it odd, to my mind, that the other Clans would look at them and think "We need those!"  Then again, Battle Armor points work in groups to bring down 'Mechs, so. . .

The original ProtoMech pilots were washouts from other phenotypes, but several bloodlines were quickly developed by the heavier users (Blood Spirits and Cloud Cobras).  Still, it's a good use of lesser pilots, and given the choice a lot of warrior sibco members would jump at the chance rather than test down to a lower caste.

While they do use EI, it's not as damaging due to drugs, training, and the previously mentioned new phenotype.  They still end up in the same place as MechWarriors and Elementals, but more slowly, with years more on average.  For the Clans back in the Homeworlds that's more than enough time to make a name and be selected for the breeding program.

I hadn't realized ProtoMech development got that advanced.  I'm guessing none of that was around in the years immediately after the Great Refusal, so "ProtoMech fever" could be looked at less as "This technology is awesome and we have to have it" and more "This is brand new and thus has unexplored potential, we should set about exploring that potential."  Which makes a lot of sense to me, honestly.

ErikModi

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #5 on: 27 May 2020, 12:09:00 »
So, I had what may qualify as a tin-foil hat thought.

Thinking about ProtoMechs, I personally came to the conclusion that a role I'd use them in could be filled just as well by (depending on the terrain) a hovercraft or VTOL, without needing specially-bred diminutive pilots with brain-damaging neural interface implants.  But of course, the Clans think conventional vehicles are obsolete on a battlefield ruled by 'Mechs, so. . . wait, are ProtoMechs really just an expensive way for the Clans to avoid admitting that conventional vehicles are still a good idea?  As in, did they see a role within their current forces that ProtoMechs would fill, and fail or refuse to realize they could fill that role easier and cheaper with a hovercraft?

Now, I'm sure ProtoMechs have advantages over conventional vehicles. . . the Near-Miss rules alone weigh well in their favor.  But if want to really look at it from the perspective of cost. . . in cash, BV, in-universe resources spent to bring this unit to the field prepared to lose it. . . is a ProtoMech that much less an investment than a conventional vehicle?  One warrior instead of a crew, sure, but with training, drugs, implants, etc., that one ProtoMechWarrior is a significant investment, a vehicle crew potentially less.

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #6 on: 27 May 2020, 12:36:21 »
Don't think too hard about cost in the BT universe, it's a good way to lose your mind.

I can say from having played a number of large-scale inter-Clan engagements over the years with large numbers of ProtoMechs (anywhere from a Star to a Trinary) that properly applied, ProtoMechs are insanely dangerous, and in some ways far more versatile than vehicles. I don't know if they scale down to smaller engagements well, but I can certainly vouch for their effectiveness when you're somewhere around Trinary-to-Cluster-scale play.


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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #7 on: 27 May 2020, 12:58:31 »
+1 to above.  A Point or Star of Protomechs can easily bring down an equivalent rating Battlemech force even something as big as a Dire Wolf wouldn't want to be surrounded by protos.  They are very dangerous particularly against slower enemies with fewer but more powerful weapons.  Something like a Nova can make short work of a band of Protos but they are amazingly resilient for their size.  If you use them like more mobile and powerful Battle Armor you can't go wrong.  They do have similar disadvantages except that they don't need their own transport as many are quite speedy but they will die under concentrated firepower or in an open plain.

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #8 on: 27 May 2020, 13:43:25 »
a group of Roc 2s swarming a big, slow mech can be terrifying - 5/8/5 speed with a heavy medium laser. even the standard Roc with a regular ER Medium is nasty.

another point in their favor is that you can mix points - not all five have to be the same variant or even design.


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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #9 on: 27 May 2020, 15:02:24 »
Here are the definitive fan articles on how to use protomechs effectively:

Thanks for plugging those, I appreciate it. Put so much effort into them it's nice to see them brought up from time to time.

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I hadn't realized ProtoMech development got that advanced.  I'm guessing none of that was around in the years immediately after the Great Refusal, so "ProtoMech fever" could be looked at less as "This technology is awesome and we have to have it" and more "This is brand new and thus has unexplored potential, we should set about exploring that potential."  Which makes a lot of sense to me, honestly.

This is a part of it, at least at first. Nearly every Clan at least gave them a short try (with the exception of the Bears, if I'm not mistaken). Those that ultimately left them behind were invariably those with more resources available to them - ie: the Invader Clans. And those who made greater use of them were typically the Clans with a weaker and/or more vulnerable military who needed an easily-produced unit type (the Spirits, the Cobras).

Now, I'm sure ProtoMechs have advantages over conventional vehicles. . . the Near-Miss rules alone weigh well in their favor.  But if want to really look at it from the perspective of cost. . . in cash, BV, in-universe resources spent to bring this unit to the field prepared to lose it. . . is a ProtoMech that much less an investment than a conventional vehicle?  One warrior instead of a crew, sure, but with training, drugs, implants, etc., that one ProtoMechWarrior is a significant investment, a vehicle crew potentially less.

Having ProtoMechs in your force gives you a stronger and more potent force than fielding vehicles and their traditionally-trained crew. ProtoMech training, IMO, is likely easier than becoming a vehicular pilot or gunner - after all, once you're hooked up to the ProtoMech, the entire machine becomes an extension of your own body. All you have to know is how to fight on a basic human level (which all clanners should already know, obviously) and you're good to go. But with vehicles, those pilots or gunners have to learn how to operate new systems and more importantly, how to work as part of a crew. And the attrition issue, in terms of pilots, is a bit of a non-issue. ProtoMechs don't suffer from personnel bottlenecks; like worktroll already said, you've got hoards of washouts that are just gonna join the lower casts if they don't become a ProtoMech pilot. If they die quickly, well, at least they got to die a glorious death.

Since ProtoMechs did become so widespread in the Homeworlds, it is also arguable that the overall costs of the implants and drugs are rather low and easily made, since even the poorest Clans (the Scorpions, Mandrills, Spirits) made wide use of the units without much difficulty. The cost and ease of producing ProtoMechs themselves must also be amazingly low, since there are multiple examples in The Wars of Reaving of Clans mustering up full Clusters and even Galaxies of ProtoMechs within a matter of months.

Then, of course, there's the fact that ProtoMechs can navigate a much wider variety of terrains (whether urban, wooded, underwater, very rocky, mountainous, etc) which lends to them being better offensive units and overall better suited to the extremely hostile Homeworld environments. And although we only have one example of a dedicated ProtoMech Dropship, they'd also be easier to transport, as a ProtoMech cubicle weighs 50 tons while being able to carry five ProtoMechs. A single light vehicle bay weighs the same amount, but only allow you to carry one vehicle up to 50 tons in weight. As a result, the same tonnage in dedicated transportation bays will unvaryingly give you most strategic and tactical flexibility if used for ProtoMechs as opposed to vehicles.
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ErikModi

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #10 on: 28 May 2020, 04:53:54 »
I did say it was a bit of a tin-foil hat idea.

That's very informative, GreekFire, thank you.  A well-thought-out, thorough analysis.  I tip my hat.

The cost and ease of producing ProtoMechs themselves must also be amazingly low, since there are multiple examples in The Wars of Reaving of Clans mustering up full Clusters and even Galaxies of ProtoMechs within a matter of months.

I imagine that might have something to do with them being 'Mechs, after a fashion.  If you have a factory set up to make 'Mechs of any type, minimal retooling would be necessary to make ProtoMechs, and pretty much the same materials go into them, but you can turn out. . . what, between five and fifty times the number of ProtoMechs that you can BattleMechs with the same amount of resources (assuming straight conversion of raw materials tonnage to functional 'Mech tonnage, BattleMechs weighing between 20 and 100 tons, ProtoMechs weighing between. . . 2 to 9?  So the same materials that go into making one 100-ton 'Mech makes fifty 2-ton ProtoMechs?)  That with the idea of giving "marginal" washouts (ones who failed on sheer bad luck, like Aidan Pryde) a "second chance" (or "arming the lower castes," something a few Clans were doing during the Wars of Reaving) does paint ProtoMechs as very attractive and cost-effective option.  Combined with curiosity about the ultimate potential of this new weapons system, and yes, "ProtoMech fever" is now making much more sense.  Thank you.

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #11 on: 28 May 2020, 07:24:19 »
One thing that keeps coming up in protomech fiscussions is the effect of EI on proto pilots. The Jaguars settled on aerospace pilots because they were largely immune to the degradation effects of EI. The big problem with protomech pilots was "God Syndrome". Basically becoming one with the protomechled to feelings of invincibilty and, if remember correctly, psychological dependency in regards to being in the machine.

I was actually kind of disappointed the Wars of Reaving brought an early end to protomechs. I was looking forward to running a character who eas a protomech pilot that had gine dark caste thinking he was a god.

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #12 on: 28 May 2020, 13:14:22 »
Not immune, but better equipped to handle the EI issues. Under RPG turns, they test every 3 years for an issue, rather than every year that everyone else does.

And the Ravens and Hell's Horses are still producing and designing ProtoMechs, though not all of the WoR tech made it to the IS it seems

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #13 on: 28 May 2020, 14:38:52 »
Protos do fill the niche of vehicles among the Clans . . . tactically they have their own advantages of course.

Its too bad so few users exist in the IS . . . Nova Cats, Warden Wolves and Sea Foxes let their programs (probably) lapse since the Jihad.
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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #14 on: 28 May 2020, 14:57:35 »
Protos can be more efficient, more effective, or just plain objectively better than mechs and vehicles in a number of roles.  Some examples:

Scouting/Recon — A Mist Lynx Prime gets one Active Probe moving 7/11 onto the field for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 880 BV2.  Five Satyr protos get FIVE Light Active Probes moving 7/11 onto the field for a 50-ton proto cubicle and 665 BV2.  Not only are the Satyrs more efficient logistically and in terms of BV, but with five Probes, they’ll sweep a much larger area of enemy hidden units in a much shorter time than the Mist Lynx.  And the Satyrs risk less of the total force when those hidden units pull an ambush on a Satyr.

Spotting for Artillery — Similarly, an Icestorm mech gets one TAG onto the field for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 728 BV2.  Or an Asshur vehicle gets one TAG onto the field for 930 BV2.  But five Satyr 4 protos (my only canonized design) get FIVE Light TAGs onto the field for a 50-ton proto cubicle and 545 BV2.  Although the Icestorm and Asshur are considerably faster than the Satyrs, the Satyrs can threaten five times more targets each turn with TAG-guided Arrow IV Homing missiles than the Icestorm or Asshur, in addition to being more efficient logistically and in terms of BV2.

Anti-Infantry/War Crimes — A Piranha mech can deliver 12 Machine Guns for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 998 BV2.  Six Siren 2 protos can deliver the same number of Machine Guns 100 tons of proto cubicles and nearly half the BV2 (516).  The Siren 2s are also slightly faster than the Piranha and can come at an infantry formation from six directions instead of one.

Mobile Combat — A Nova Prime can move 5/8/5 and fire seven ER Medium Lasers (six if jumping) per turn without overheating for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 2663 BV2.  Seven Roc protos also move 5/8/5 and fire seven ER Medium Lasers per turn for 100 tons in proto cubicles and 2352 BV2.  Not only are the Rocs more efficient delivering mobile ER Medium Laser firepower than the Nova Prime, but they’ll last longer.  Seven Rocs are much harder to hunt down and disable than one Nova Prime.

Fire Support — A Hachiman vehicle can move 4/6 and throw 40 LRMs each turn for 1484 BV2.  Five Gorgon protos also move 4/6 and throw 50 LRMs each turn for 1475 BV2.  Not only do the Gorgons throw 25% more LRMs than the Hachiman for the same BV2, they’ll last a lot longer.  Five Gorgons are much harder to hunt down and disable than one tank.

Crit-Seeking — An Arctic Wolf can throw 30 SRMs per turn without overheating for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 1330 BV2.  Seven Orc protos can throw 28 SRMs per turn for 100 tons in proto cubicle and 1274 BV2.  The Arctic Wolf is a little faster and can fire for a couple turns longer than the Orcs before running low on ammo.  But the seven Orcs are a somewhat cheaper way to field a mass-critting capability for cleanup or ambushes, and will be harder to hunt down and kill than one Arctic Wolf.

Restricting Movement/Blocking/Fixing Enemy Units — Six small, fast protos like the Cecerops can completely surround a ground-bound mech, forcing it to waste time, firepower, and movement fighting its way out.  And they do it for 86 BV2 each.  By comparison, even the lowly Flatbed Truck (Armor) will cost 117 BV2 each for the same job, and they are much slower and easier to disable than the Cecerops.

I’d also argue that the Society introduced some new proto capabilities that are difficult, if not impossible, to replicate in other units.  The Boggart is an incendiary skirmisher par excellence.  And the Basilisk Quads deliver a unique electromagnetic physical attack.

So even if there was evidence that protos and their pilots are harder/costlier to field than similar mechs/vehicles and their warriors/crews, it would still be worth it in terms of logistics, BV2, or just plain mission capability to go with the protos in many cases.

That said, there are mech and vehicle roles that protomechs have lots of difficulty filling.

Although their numbers and mobility make them hard to hunt down and disable, a couple protos cannot hold ground or static positions like a mech or even certain types of infantry/BA.

Similarly, if you need to go through a wall/building/fortification/target — not just around it — the size and physical capabilities of mech are clearly superior to protos.

There are a few protos that field ER Large Lasers or Heavy Medium Lasers for ten-point hits, usually at some questionable sacrifice in mobility or armor.  But you can’t beat Gauss, Clan Peepers, Heavy Large Lasers, and 20-class ACs for 15+ point hole-punching, and these can only really be fielded by mechs and vehicles, especially with reasonable speed and survivability.  I like to mix critting protos with hole-punching vehicles and quadvees in the same speed bands for my Hell’s Horses formations.

Similarly, I think with the exception of one Minotaur design, protos have difficulty mounting the long-ranged ACs and HAGs for anti-air duty.
« Last Edit: 28 May 2020, 15:25:54 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #15 on: 28 May 2020, 16:25:24 »
Crit-Seeking — An Arctic Wolf can throw 30 SRMs per turn without overheating for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 1330 BV2.  Seven Orc protos can throw 28 SRMs per turn for 100 tons in proto cubicle and 1274 BV2.  The Arctic Wolf is a little faster and can fire for a couple turns longer than the Orcs before running low on ammo.  But the seven Orcs are a somewhat cheaper way to field a mass-critting capability for cleanup or ambushes, and will be harder to hunt down and kill than one Arctic Wolf.

SRMs, and LRMs, on Protos also load single rounds of special ammunition like BA . . . say you have 6 rounds of SRM ammo for the proto (b/c I do not have any canon specs in front of me) then you can make 2 NARC-equipped, 2 Inferno, 1 HE, and 1 flechette for infantry.  You can get a LOT more munitions flexibility with Protos than you can with mechs or vehicles which allows them to better support your mech forces.
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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #16 on: 29 May 2020, 04:35:28 »
Protos can be more efficient, more effective, or just plain objectively better than mechs and vehicles in a number of roles.  Some examples:

Scouting/Recon — A Mist Lynx Prime gets one Active Probe moving 7/11 onto the field for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 880 BV2.  Five Satyr protos get FIVE Light Active Probes moving 7/11 onto the field for a 50-ton proto cubicle and 665 BV2.  Not only are the Satyrs more efficient logistically and in terms of BV, but with five Probes, they’ll sweep a much larger area of enemy hidden units in a much shorter time than the Mist Lynx.  And the Satyrs risk less of the total force when those hidden units pull an ambush on a Satyr.

Spotting for Artillery — Similarly, an Icestorm mech gets one TAG onto the field for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 728 BV2.  Or an Asshur vehicle gets one TAG onto the field for 930 BV2.  But five Satyr 4 protos (my only canonized design) get FIVE Light TAGs onto the field for a 50-ton proto cubicle and 545 BV2.  Although the Icestorm and Asshur are considerably faster than the Satyrs, the Satyrs can threaten five times more targets each turn with TAG-guided Arrow IV Homing missiles than the Icestorm or Asshur, in addition to being more efficient logistically and in terms of BV2.

Anti-Infantry/War Crimes — A Piranha mech can deliver 12 Machine Guns for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 998 BV2.  Six Siren 2 protos can deliver the same number of Machine Guns 100 tons of proto cubicles and nearly half the BV2 (516).  The Siren 2s are also slightly faster than the Piranha and can come at an infantry formation from six directions instead of one.

Mobile Combat — A Nova Prime can move 5/8/5 and fire seven ER Medium Lasers (six if jumping) per turn without overheating for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 2663 BV2.  Seven Roc protos also move 5/8/5 and fire seven ER Medium Lasers per turn for 100 tons in proto cubicles and 2352 BV2.  Not only are the Rocs more efficient delivering mobile ER Medium Laser firepower than the Nova Prime, but they’ll last longer.  Seven Rocs are much harder to hunt down and disable than one Nova Prime.

Fire Support — A Hachiman vehicle can move 4/6 and throw 40 LRMs each turn for 1484 BV2.  Five Gorgon protos also move 4/6 and throw 50 LRMs each turn for 1475 BV2.  Not only do the Gorgons throw 25% more LRMs than the Hachiman for the same BV2, they’ll last a lot longer.  Five Gorgons are much harder to hunt down and disable than one tank.

Crit-Seeking — An Arctic Wolf can throw 30 SRMs per turn without overheating for a 150-ton mech cubicle and 1330 BV2.  Seven Orc protos can throw 28 SRMs per turn for 100 tons in proto cubicle and 1274 BV2.  The Arctic Wolf is a little faster and can fire for a couple turns longer than the Orcs before running low on ammo.  But the seven Orcs are a somewhat cheaper way to field a mass-critting capability for cleanup or ambushes, and will be harder to hunt down and kill than one Arctic Wolf.

Restricting Movement/Blocking/Fixing Enemy Units — Six small, fast protos like the Cecerops can completely surround a ground-bound mech, forcing it to waste time, firepower, and movement fighting its way out.  And they do it for 86 BV2 each.  By comparison, even the lowly Flatbed Truck (Armor) will cost 117 BV2 each for the same job, and they are much slower and easier to disable than the Cecerops.

I’d also argue that the Society introduced some new proto capabilities that are difficult, if not impossible, to replicate in other units.  The Boggart is an incendiary skirmisher par excellence.  And the Basilisk Quads deliver a unique electromagnetic physical attack.

So even if there was evidence that protos and their pilots are harder/costlier to field than similar mechs/vehicles and their warriors/crews, it would still be worth it in terms of logistics, BV2, or just plain mission capability to go with the protos in many cases.

That said, there are mech and vehicle roles that protomechs have lots of difficulty filling.

Although their numbers and mobility make them hard to hunt down and disable, a couple protos cannot hold ground or static positions like a mech or even certain types of infantry/BA.

Similarly, if you need to go through a wall/building/fortification/target — not just around it — the size and physical capabilities of mech are clearly superior to protos.

There are a few protos that field ER Large Lasers or Heavy Medium Lasers for ten-point hits, usually at some questionable sacrifice in mobility or armor.  But you can’t beat Gauss, Clan Peepers, Heavy Large Lasers, and 20-class ACs for 15+ point hole-punching, and these can only really be fielded by mechs and vehicles, especially with reasonable speed and survivability.  I like to mix critting protos with hole-punching vehicles and quadvees in the same speed bands for my Hell’s Horses formations.

Similarly, I think with the exception of one Minotaur design, protos have difficulty mounting the long-ranged ACs and HAGs for anti-air duty.

Now I want to make and anti-infantry proto with a ton of AP guass rifles

wantec

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #17 on: 29 May 2020, 09:38:19 »
Now I want to make and anti-infantry proto with a ton of AP guass rifles
Here's some options:
Siren 3 - 8/12, 1x APG (8 rounds)
Satyr 4 - 7/11, 1x APG (20 rounds), Light TAG
Centaur 4 - 6/9[12], 1x APG (13 rounds), 2x SRM 1 (20 rounds)
Hydra 4 - 4/6, 3x APG (30 rounds)
Roc 4 - 5/8/5, 1x APG (16 rounds), ECM
Gorgon 4 - 4/6/3, 1x APG (10 rounds), 1x SRM6 (10 rounds)
Procyon (Quad) - 6/9, 2x APG (32 rounds), 1x SRM2 (5 rounds)
Hobgoblin - 4/6, 1x APG (40 rounds), Fusillade, Mag Clamps
Hobgoblin 2 - 4/6, 4x APG (20 rounds), Mag Clamps

No record sheet yet, but we know this has AP Gauss as well:
Cecerops 5 - mag clamps and at least 1 APG
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Colt Ward

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #18 on: 29 May 2020, 10:12:33 »
APGs really weigh too much to get a lot- if you want to make a mini-Piranha then you need to go with LMGs . . . though you might run out of crits for the Proto.
Colt Ward
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GreekFire

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #19 on: 29 May 2020, 11:54:19 »
APGs really weigh too much to get a lot- if you want to make a mini-Piranha then you need to go with LMGs . . . though you might run out of crits for the Proto.

Now that I think about it, the APG is to ProtoMechs kind of like what HAGs are to 'Mechs. Its a decent generalist weapon system that's usable against everything, but it's pricey and tends to be outperformed by more specialized systems (except in one scenario for both - AA for HAGs, AI for APGs).
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Drewbacca

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #20 on: 29 May 2020, 12:22:48 »
I acutally modified a Roc to have 4 AP Gauss Rifles and increased the armor by a few points. That thing can pretty much kill a platoon in a turn.

Not to mention a point of them is putting 20 shots for 3 points of damage out to a range of 9 hexes.

Colt Ward

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #21 on: 29 May 2020, 13:26:18 »
But I could get 8 LMGs for the weight of the AP Gauss, and with the AP damage modifier on both the AP Gauss might be a bit of overkill to a platoon . . . it would be better to send that Roc after what other Rocs with ERML, MPL or the HML go attack.  Something light carrying 2-4 LMGs, maybe faster, would be better to kill infantry.
Colt Ward
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RevenVrake

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #22 on: 30 May 2020, 22:35:56 »
Another thing to consider, which really blew me away when I realized it, is that Protomechs only have a gunnery skill, not a piloting skill.

In an Urban environment, on concrete, you can turn and run at full speed without needing those checks to see if you fall over/skid like Battlemechs or Vehicles. That can make even the slow Minotaur pretty agile in urban warfare at 3/5/3 and with its twin ER Mediums a point of Minos ambushing something is pretty scary.

Colt Ward

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #23 on: 31 May 2020, 01:51:08 »
And they travel through buildings like infantry . . . it makes them perfect for urban defense- especially since while their magazines are small, they can be reloaded faster/easier.
Colt Ward
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ErikModi

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Re: Late 3060s, Clans, and ProtoMechs
« Reply #24 on: 11 June 2020, 17:25:00 »
Thanks for plugging those, I appreciate it. Put so much effort into them it's nice to see them brought up from time to time.

This is a part of it, at least at first. Nearly every Clan at least gave them a short try (with the exception of the Bears, if I'm not mistaken). Those that ultimately left them behind were invariably those with more resources available to them - ie: the Invader Clans. And those who made greater use of them were typically the Clans with a weaker and/or more vulnerable military who needed an easily-produced unit type (the Spirits, the Cobras).

Having ProtoMechs in your force gives you a stronger and more potent force than fielding vehicles and their traditionally-trained crew. ProtoMech training, IMO, is likely easier than becoming a vehicular pilot or gunner - after all, once you're hooked up to the ProtoMech, the entire machine becomes an extension of your own body. All you have to know is how to fight on a basic human level (which all clanners should already know, obviously) and you're good to go. But with vehicles, those pilots or gunners have to learn how to operate new systems and more importantly, how to work as part of a crew. And the attrition issue, in terms of pilots, is a bit of a non-issue. ProtoMechs don't suffer from personnel bottlenecks; like worktroll already said, you've got hoards of washouts that are just gonna join the lower casts if they don't become a ProtoMech pilot. If they die quickly, well, at least they got to die a glorious death.

Since ProtoMechs did become so widespread in the Homeworlds, it is also arguable that the overall costs of the implants and drugs are rather low and easily made, since even the poorest Clans (the Scorpions, Mandrills, Spirits) made wide use of the units without much difficulty. The cost and ease of producing ProtoMechs themselves must also be amazingly low, since there are multiple examples in The Wars of Reaving of Clans mustering up full Clusters and even Galaxies of ProtoMechs within a matter of months.

Then, of course, there's the fact that ProtoMechs can navigate a much wider variety of terrains (whether urban, wooded, underwater, very rocky, mountainous, etc) which lends to them being better offensive units and overall better suited to the extremely hostile Homeworld environments. And although we only have one example of a dedicated ProtoMech Dropship, they'd also be easier to transport, as a ProtoMech cubicle weighs 50 tons while being able to carry five ProtoMechs. A single light vehicle bay weighs the same amount, but only allow you to carry one vehicle up to 50 tons in weight. As a result, the same tonnage in dedicated transportation bays will unvaryingly give you most strategic and tactical flexibility if used for ProtoMechs as opposed to vehicles.

And having played around with ProtoMechs in MegaMek -- and reading your excellent articles -- I agree with you. . . ProtoMechs are beastly all out of proportion to their size.  I'm in love with the Delphyne Standard (since part of the reason I asked this was data collection for continuing Best Served Cold, my Clan Wolverine fanfic. . . which incorporates some Blood Spirit survivors from Wars of Reaving, who bring their love affair with ProtoMechs with them).

Thank you, O Great And Wise Guru Of The ProtoMech.