Poll

Are you tired of the HPG Network Blackout?

Yes
83 (59.7%)
No
49 (35.3%)
I've never known a BT universe without a blackout...
7 (5%)

Total Members Voted: 139

Author Topic: Anyone else sick of the blackout?  (Read 13718 times)

abou

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #30 on: 02 September 2019, 22:49:28 »
To be fair, they are working on it. The delay is disappointing. They should have been done with it, but the Kickstarter sucked up a lot of manpower. And truthfully, that box set is probably better for the health of the IP than ilClan.

Yes, it should have been done years ago. However, this is where we are at. It is what it is.

pheonixstorm

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #31 on: 03 September 2019, 00:57:55 »
So when its over and the HPG is restored we will see the IS being attacked from another faction beyond the periphery!! This time they will come from somewhere as written in one of the Future Wars volumes.. I forget what they were called but they had some cool weapons and mechs.

RabidFox

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #32 on: 03 September 2019, 11:15:48 »
What ever happened to the "black boxes" that the Federated Suns and Draconis Combine had during the 4th SW and '39 war?  Are they still around in the black out?

I just recently came back to Battletech due to the HBS game and the kickstarter.  I got out around the start of the Fedcom civil war, so I'm not up to date with the latest.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #33 on: 03 September 2019, 11:17:30 »
What ever happened to the "black boxes" that the Federated Suns and Draconis Combine had during the 4th SW and '39 war?  Are they still around in the black out?

I just recently came back to Battletech due to the HBS game and the kickstarter.  I got out around the start of the Fedcom civil war, so I'm not up to date with the latest.

They're still in use, but only mentioned occasionally. It was a major advantage for the Dragon's Fury when they got access to some in one of their novels
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kelgar04

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #34 on: 03 September 2019, 14:05:27 »
If I'm honest I'm a bit sick of the ass pulling and plot shields by some factions as well as the continuation of the blackout.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #35 on: 03 September 2019, 14:32:00 »
I'm not sick of the blackout, I think it creates an environment ripe with story telling potential. The vastness of the Inner Sphere, Clan's, the Republic are all broken down into smaller pockets where any number of adventures and stories can be told that don't have to be Universe shattering events. It creates a chaos that should be taken advantage of by writers, but I feel everyone is so focused on plot advancement that all the all the possibles are lost.

I enjoy reading the BT novels and not every one of them needs to move the universe a step forward. I would enjoy series that explores units/characters  accomplishments and failures over multiple adventures for example. In the end, the unit/character does not need to conquer Terra, but becomes part of the shared timeline.

Probably not a popular opinion lol

Colt Ward

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #36 on: 03 September 2019, 15:04:27 »
Sorry, but if anyone thinks the Blackout ending will magically restore the HPG com net then they are whistling in the dark . . . we are looking at over 18 years of the HPGs not functioning.  In the early days after the net went down, powers fought over controlling the worlds the surviving HPGs were on and the fighting sides re-living some of 1SW- they destroyed the HPGs if they were going to lose control or if they could not take them.  At this point restoring the HPGs would be akin to 'Hey, lets restore the telegraph service!'

Blackout & ilClan are two very separate and distinct items.  Read Bonfire of Worlds IIRC, it gets into the Blackout a bit . . . basically, whatever was done has altered the topography of the medium HPG uses to send messages.  All the other stuff that surrounded it were either wild stories to explain it before it became known (virus) or false flag (raids) . . . maybe coincidences.  As for the agent . . . all we know is the one guy who was on the trail woke up Arthur in Avalon Stone from cryo blaming him for Clarion Call while Stone was going 'Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, Mike Foxtrot?'  From the BTU perspective the sheer inertia in the universe working around the failure is not going to magically bring them back- companies and individuals have learned to adapt w/o the HPGs and even if it hurt some businesses it helped others.  The Republic and Clans are the only ones who had the technology to build HPGs afaik, and with the turmoil I think we can say only 3 Clans might still possess the tech.  Which now that I think about it would be a very neat way for one of them to gain enough of a military advantage to be in control.

As far as the book?  ilClan got put on the back burner for more reasons that we know publicly or should know.  It sucks, but it gets here when it gets here . . . its not like they decided to sit on a product that would pay- neener neener neener- out of spite to the fan base.  We have been told it will arrive . . . when it does, I will get it.  Right now I am enjoying re-living some of the Invasion and game play based on that era . . . need to find a Falcon to do some Refusing with, lol.
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sadlerbw

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #37 on: 03 September 2019, 15:21:14 »
I voted 'No', but that doesn't mean I would mind if it did end. I WOULD like to find out what actually caused it, even if that didn't mean it got fixed right away, but I don't think it matters a whole lot plot-wise. At this point, it doesn't seem like the fluff is making that much of a big deal about the lack of HPG causing problems. Reading through Shattered Fortress, you wouldn't get the idea that interstellar communications were a big problem anymore or that they were creating a bunch of chaos. It isn't like everyone is always in the wrong place at the wrong time.

To put it another way: to me it feels like you could turn the HPG network back on tomorrow and it wouldn't greatly affect the trajectory of the story. The Inner Sphere seems to have good enough communications capability at this point to manage their nations. Right now the Blackout feels more like a nuisance than a crippling deficiency.
« Last Edit: 03 September 2019, 15:23:21 by sadlerbw »

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #38 on: 03 September 2019, 15:26:20 »
More specifically, Il Clan was done in 2013.

Poor Phil Lee. If only he knew he'd have so much more free time....
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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #39 on: 03 September 2019, 15:31:46 »
Poor Phil Lee. If only he knew he'd have so much more free time....

they probably sent the notice to his @hotmail account he hasn't checked since 2002



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Kidd

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #40 on: 03 September 2019, 16:29:46 »
I'm not sick of the blackout, I think it creates an environment ripe with story telling potential. The vastness of the Inner Sphere, Clan's, the Republic are all broken down into smaller pockets where any number of adventures and stories can be told that don't have to be Universe shattering events. It creates a chaos that should be taken advantage of by writers, but I feel everyone is so focused on plot advancement that all the all the possibles are lost.

...

Probably not a popular opinion lol
No, and let me try to explain why, IMO

The environment pre-Blackout was already ripe with story-telling potential. There were more small stories than could ever be told in the extremely diverse and happening universe as it was. Any problem with the pre-Blackout universe is not lack of potential, but lack of actual writing and publishing.

In the pre-Blackout setting, a story of a planet or region that was cut off by sabotage, Comstar Interdiction, viral strike, hyperspace beasties or what have you, could have taken place anywhere on the map. At the same time stories featuring functioning HPGs could take place everywhere else.

The Blackout has rendered the latter kind of stories impossible, and railroaded the entire setting down a path that has not deviated or resolved for nearly two decades. Hence the Blackout itself was exactly the kind of "universe shattering event" you mention that was unnecessary, focused on plot advancement, and eliminated the other possibilities.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #41 on: 03 September 2019, 16:57:20 »
Except, that like I just told you one of the early stories (book #2) was about a three way fight to control one of the functional HPGs.  As you yourself pointed out, its not functionally any different than Interdiction or their ilk stories.  Heck 'get to the HPG and scream for help' is as tired a refrain as 'we cannot use the HPG for help!'  I do think its not something that has been explored as much for the strategic changes, but then again we have not really had any spine novels in a while and the post-Blackout MWDA 'spine' books dealt with pony express.  One of the more inventive uses was the reformed League's 'Canary' programs.
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victor_shaw

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #42 on: 03 September 2019, 17:00:32 »
My biggest problem with the Blackout and other aspects of the current story are, they are horror writing 101.

1. The car wouldn't start: the Wall
2. The phone doesn't work: The Blackout

First problem, Battletech is not a horror.
Second, They didn't manage to use either of them well.
Third, All they have been used for is to say, all this happened so there is no information and we advanced the story so many years without having to tell you what happened. :)
Finally, The Blackout is and was a bad plot device (macguffin) that was never all that interesting to began with that has far outlived its usefulness in the story.

Kidd

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #43 on: 03 September 2019, 17:36:52 »
Except, that like I just told you one of the early stories (book #2) was about a three way fight to control one of the functional HPGs.  As you yourself pointed out, its not functionally any different than Interdiction or their ilk stories.  Heck 'get to the HPG and scream for help' is as tired a refrain as 'we cannot use the HPG for help!'  I do think its not something that has been explored as much for the strategic changes,
...
and the post-Blackout MWDA 'spine' books dealt with pony express.  One of the more inventive uses was the reformed League's 'Canary' programs.
I can have a story in 3040 of mysterious attacks interrupting HPG operations in the entire FS Periphery save for Broken Wheel, and the subsequent 3-way battle between Davion, Comstar, and Clan Wolverine for the single operating HPG that each side wants control over. Or however you want to replicate the Call To Arms scenario. It's doable.

What if I want a story in which New Avalon can communicate with Terra using HPGs in 3140?

Quote
but then again we have not really had any spine novels in a while
Which is the real issue, as I said.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #44 on: 03 September 2019, 18:51:52 »
I am in the 4th option.

I've never known a BT universe with a blackout

I prefer the Clan Invasion - FCCW era. Just now warming up to the Jihad. I am aware of the future times, but DA just did not appeal to me. I did not mind the HPGs going down, but the fortress wall did not make sense to me. Nothing against those that like it, whatever works for you.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #45 on: 03 September 2019, 19:20:38 »
I might not be sick of it, but I havent paid much attention to that era either.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #46 on: 03 September 2019, 19:30:30 »
+1 for that... I "got over" the clan invasion years ago... by ignoring it.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #47 on: 03 September 2019, 20:05:51 »
+1 for that... I "got over" the clan invasion years ago... by ignoring it.

+1. It is how I manage that time between 2800 and 3045.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #48 on: 03 September 2019, 22:11:40 »
+1. It is how I manage that time between 2800 and 3045.

 If the clans weren't involved then it didn't exist!! *plugs ears and makes lalalala sounds*
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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #49 on: 03 September 2019, 23:04:37 »
Exactly. We all have our favorite eras. We don't have to mock people for enjoying something different.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #50 on: 03 September 2019, 23:21:44 »
Exactly. We all have our favorite eras. We don't have to mock people for enjoying something different.

Neither does anyone have to (collectively) gum up a thread that's explicitly about the part of the setting they ostensibly ignore.  This isn't mocking them for enjoying something different, it's pointing out rude behavior.

I can have a story in 3040 of mysterious attacks interrupting HPG operations in the entire FS Periphery save for Broken Wheel, and the subsequent 3-way battle between Davion, Comstar, and Clan Wolverine for the single operating HPG that each side wants control over. Or however you want to replicate the Call To Arms scenario. It's doable.

What if I want a story in which New Avalon can communicate with Terra using HPGs in 3140?
Which is the real issue, as I said.

Well it's all fanfic, so you can do whatever you want to do; you've already committed to ignoring canon by suggesting Clan Wolverine be involved in anything post 2830 or so.  Go nuts.  What if I want to write something about the FWLM repulsing a Clan planetary invasion within the League's borders in 3051?  The answer is the same.

A particular part of canon getting in a fanfic's way is not unique to the Blackout, nor is it even particularly noteworthy about the Blackout.  BattleTech for its entire lifespan hasn't been about providing the widest open sandbox imaginable; events that occur within the story have restricted what fans can feasibly cram into the edges of canon since 1986.

"Variety of fanfiction that can be written" is not a selling point for TPTB (who gain very little to nothing), nor is it an indicator of quality.  Even within the framework of the Blackout there are an infinite number of stories that can be reasonably told; having a larger infinity does nothing.
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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #51 on: 03 September 2019, 23:23:15 »
Exactly. We all have our favorite eras. We don't have to mock people for enjoying something different.

 I find something to enjoy in every era except that one with no mechs, pfft simpletons.
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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #52 on: 04 September 2019, 00:12:46 »
As a plot device to ratchet paranoia and war drum fodder it was great . As a plot device killing the old business  model for Solaris VII so many warriors  became  available  for now better paying mercenary  work also great . Needing to last any longer than the 18-36 months  to achieve  the above terrible . In  18 to 36 months the powers that be would expand or create a black box network to mitigate  the loss of faster communication  and would  reduce the impact of the loss in the first place . If it was brought  back in 12-14 months or promised to would  not delay the desire to have a backup FTL com network  with the older tech . The Dark Age novels clearly  state black  box communication  was not affected  . The tech is small enough  to be on a satellite  package . Both the Draconis Combine : Republic of the Sphere and presumably  House Davian  used it or had a network  in place in case of Com Star interdiction  insurance. Both intelligence  services and military's  used it if they did not trust Com Star .

What ever happened to the "black boxes" that the Federated Suns and Draconis Combine had during the 4th SW and '39 war?  Are they still around in the black out?

I just recently came back to Battletech due to the HBS game and the kickstarter.  I got out around the start of the Fedcom civil war, so I'm not up to date with the latest.

I was always under an impression that of things that devs regretted, wanted to do differently or even outright retcon, the Black Box tech is very high on the list.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #53 on: 04 September 2019, 01:58:19 »

Well it's all fanfic

Please reread my previous 2 posts and understand what I was talking about.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #54 on: 04 September 2019, 03:14:34 »
I get the feeling that discussions (OK, arguments) like this keep cropping up because of the kind of triple genre that BattleTech spans, each which have their own, unique demands.

Fiction: Innately limiting--it requires a coherent story with a beginning, middle and an end. Events must happen for understandable reasons, mysteries must be resolved, otherwise the author looks like they're making things up or pulling things out of their arse (deus ex machina and all that). Readers want to know "What happened next?"

Roleplaying: Require player agency and centricity. The players must be the heroes of the story. So any RPG based on literature (not only BTU, but any game based on Lord of the Rings or Dune or Game of Thrones or whatever) immediately runs into the problem of either sidelining the characters into minor roles, or allowing players to impact major events and thus have any future fiction in the series be useless as a source of game ideas. Players want to know "What can my character do next?"

Miniature Tabletop Wargaming: Require things like (re)playability, scalability, fairness and fun. Both sides must have a chance of winning, whatever that means in each scenario, which precludes against having one side represented by PCs the other by NPCs. This seems to be the crowd that wants more 'stuff.' More designs, more minis, more stuff to collect. "What can I buy next?"

I'd imagine most players are a mix of two or three of the above, but I think frustration with the Blackout comes down to people who are here mainly or more for the fiction. If you're roleplaying or strictly wargaming, it matters far less, as you'll be making up the universe anyway.

So above I see someone with a fiction issue ("The blackout limits the stories that can be told") gets a wargaming answer ("You can use the rules to play any kind of game you like.") Like people are speaking different languages to each other.
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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #55 on: 04 September 2019, 05:49:37 »
Well, yes and no. I like new content.

Yes, the current lore seems to have come to a screeching halt. In most cases that would be a bad thing.
The tradeoff is that all resources seem to be being poured into functional material like mapsheets, new boxed sets, redesigned mechs, and other products targeting playing the game rather than expanding the lore. Judging by the kickstarter it has paid off rather well.

So yes, while the lore has been almost at a standstill in the Dark Age since the end of the Jihad, I appreciate the focus on getting people back into the game rather than just placating us with more knowledge tomes.

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #56 on: 04 September 2019, 07:00:13 »
I get the feeling that discussions (OK, arguments) like this keep cropping up because of the kind of triple genre that BattleTech spans, each which have their own, unique demands.

Fiction: Innately limiting--it requires a coherent story with a beginning, middle and an end. Events must happen for understandable reasons, mysteries must be resolved, otherwise the author looks like they're making things up or pulling things out of their arse (deus ex machina and all that). Readers want to know "What happened next?"

Roleplaying: Require player agency and centricity. The players must be the heroes of the story. So any RPG based on literature (not only BTU, but any game based on Lord of the Rings or Dune or Game of Thrones or whatever) immediately runs into the problem of either sidelining the characters into minor roles, or allowing players to impact major events and thus have any future fiction in the series be useless as a source of game ideas. Players want to know "What can my character do next?"

Miniature Tabletop Wargaming: Require things like (re)playability, scalability, fairness and fun. Both sides must have a chance of winning, whatever that means in each scenario, which precludes against having one side represented by PCs the other by NPCs. This seems to be the crowd that wants more 'stuff.' More designs, more minis, more stuff to collect. "What can I buy next?"

I'd imagine most players are a mix of two or three of the above, but I think frustration with the Blackout comes down to people who are here mainly or more for the fiction. If you're roleplaying or strictly wargaming, it matters far less, as you'll be making up the universe anyway.

So above I see someone with a fiction issue ("The blackout limits the stories that can be told") gets a wargaming answer ("You can use the rules to play any kind of game you like.") Like people are speaking different languages to each other.

I was trying so hard not to post in this thread.  :(

Speaking for myself, I was spoiled with regular plot advancements to the BT storyline growing up, and honestly it is something I expect; rightly or wrongly. Conversely, BT having a stagnant timeline is nothing new and there have been times when the plotline hasn't moved for years; sometimes intentional and other times because of outside forces (business imperatives). So, a stagnant timeline is not in itself a detriment, since we've been stuck for awhile, but the manner in which we've been stuck has gotten tired.

Simply put, we were let with a "cliffhanger," and as George R.R. Martin, can attest requires resolution, or 'riot.' As any other writer, producer, or artist can confirm.  If you look at Warhammer 40K (BT's more successful neighbor), stagnation was written into the story, but they left no "cliffhangers" only "possibilities," and GW has only recently advanced the plotline to sell more stuff. As an aside I always thought BT's advancing time/storyline were one of the IP's strengths and uniquenesses. But, that's another thread.

So, if CGL wants to stagnate the timeline again, fine, resolve the "cliffhangers" and leave a few future "possibilities," but neatly tied up. As cliffhangers imply a future. A future we've been denied for sometime.

Then, call it a wrap, and we're good for another decade. Fan expectation, is not unreasonable here, and those implying so, seems off.
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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #57 on: 04 September 2019, 10:05:20 »
I get the feeling that discussions (OK, arguments) like this keep cropping up because of the kind of triple genre that BattleTech spans, each which have their own, unique demands.

Fiction: Innately limiting--it requires a coherent story with a beginning, middle and an end. Events must happen for understandable reasons, mysteries must be resolved, otherwise the author looks like they're making things up or pulling things out of their arse (deus ex machina and all that). Readers want to know "What happened next?"

Roleplaying: Require player agency and centricity. The players must be the heroes of the story. So any RPG based on literature (not only BTU, but any game based on Lord of the Rings or Dune or Game of Thrones or whatever) immediately runs into the problem of either sidelining the characters into minor roles, or allowing players to impact major events and thus have any future fiction in the series be useless as a source of game ideas. Players want to know "What can my character do next?"

Miniature Tabletop Wargaming: Require things like (re)playability, scalability, fairness and fun. Both sides must have a chance of winning, whatever that means in each scenario, which precludes against having one side represented by PCs the other by NPCs. This seems to be the crowd that wants more 'stuff.' More designs, more minis, more stuff to collect. "What can I buy next?"

I'd imagine most players are a mix of two or three of the above, but I think frustration with the Blackout comes down to people who are here mainly or more for the fiction. If you're roleplaying or strictly wargaming, it matters far less, as you'll be making up the universe anyway.

So above I see someone with a fiction issue ("The blackout limits the stories that can be told") gets a wargaming answer ("You can use the rules to play any kind of game you like.") Like people are speaking different languages to each other.

See, for me the Blackout is a better storytelling (and IMO that is what RP'ers are) tool b/c it removes a lazy answer (HPGs and instant communication) and for modern players throws them back to a time when the world was not connected by a instant communication net- pony express, mail dispatch ships, couriers and simple orders expecting the recipient to take general directives to apply them to the situation found.  It swings the pendulum for strategic offensives deep into the attacker's favor since the decision cycle now requires communication loops before a defender can respond.  Rather than a defense along the border such as described in SW1 & SW2 where troops could be easily/quickly shuffled to respond to attacks, it is now possible for a bold thrust to pierce the 'frontlines' to strike deep and cut off a pocket of enemy forces or hit a support/transport node.  Julian's campaign against the Dracs in Shattered Fortress has some of those tones- by striking and moving quickly you can often stay ahead of any defenders or 'counterattack' b/c the defenders cannot simply send a instant message for help.

For a merc that wants to get into details, besides being a fighting band you have to sort of be a trader as well . . . currency is going to fluctuate based on local perceptions and per 2 or 3 SB we know trade has gone to more of a barter system than currency exchange.  When a SB says that mercs are getting paid in ammo & supplies rather than currency- cause in a universe at war, its a seller's market- IMO it tells us that currency stabilization is out the window due to the time lag on communications and the inability to quickly/easily call ahead can make for some interesting problems.  Show up with a fistful of kroner you got as part of your pay for the last job only to find the world has joined the Galatean League and the only folks who will take it are offering you 10% of the value it had in the last few systems . . . and what are you going to do?
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

ArchonDan

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Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #58 on: 04 September 2019, 11:46:07 »
See, for me the Blackout is a better storytelling (and IMO that is what RP'ers are) tool b/c it removes a lazy answer (HPGs and instant communication) and for modern players throws them back to a time when the world was not connected by a instant communication net- pony express, mail dispatch ships, couriers and simple orders expecting the recipient to take general directives to apply them to the situation found....

This is my feeling too, I like 3025 because of the Lostech setting, the downward slide, the frontier feel and the blackout take that a step further for all the reasons you stated. I like the setting, not so fond of the crazy tech level's and equipment but that is a different discussion.

Dubble_g

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  • My hovercraft is full of eels
Re: Anyone else sick of the blackout?
« Reply #59 on: 04 September 2019, 22:06:52 »
Hm, I've been quote-replied twice but I gotta be honest here guys, I'm having trouble seeing how the replies relate to my post. Maybe my point wasn't clear enough. Viz,

- BattleTech spans a number of genres: Fiction, RPG, Wargame

- Each genre attracts different people, and consumers/players in each genre want different things

e.g. The blackout is an issue that affects strategic, interstellar communications, which are not modeled in the tactical tabletop game, and therefore a bigger issue for people who want a story than it is for people who want a tabletop game. For wargamers, that lack of new products is more an issue than the timeline not advancing--which is a slightly different issue that can be addressed in many ways, not just through the timeline.

- For that reason, I feel each person's attitude towards the lack of advancement in the timeline probably depends a lot on how you interact with the game: for fiction, for the RPG or for the wargame.

- Arguments about the state of the IP might be less heated if we all realize different people are here for very different reasons, and there is no "correct" way to interact with BattleTech.
Author, "Inverted" (Shrapnel #4), "Undefeated" (#10), "Reversal of Fortunes" (#13) and "The Alexandria Job" (#15)

 

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