Vehicle crews

[pixelgeek]

Is there anywhere that lists the number of crew for vehicles? Like the Striker for example.

[Brakiel]

IIRC, isn't it minimum 1 per 15 tons of vehicle?

[Daryk]

Yes, that is the rule from Tech Manual.

[pixelgeek]

Thanks guys

[BloodRose]

Obvious numbers. A tank typically has a Driver, Commander and Gunner plus one extra Gunner per weapon in another location. Some may have loaders.

Example:

A Scorpion has a Commander, Driver, Gunner for the turret gun, Gunner for the hull and maybe one Loader (4 or 5)

For some with missile based weapons you can assume that at least one system is slaved to the Commanders FC station

Example:

A Marsden has a Commander, Driver, Loader, Gunner but the hull SRM racks may operated by the Commander for a crew of 4.

[pixelgeek]

Obvious numbers.

After reading a lot of WWII and modern material I don't ever want to assume what a standard crew is :-)

Besides, those details are what narratives are borne from.

[BloodRose]

After reading a lot of WWII and modern material I don't ever want to assume what a standard crew is :-)

Besides, those details are what narratives are borne from.

We do not talk about French tanks and the abomination that was their crew layout.

[ANS Kamas P81]

We do not talk about French tanks and the abomination that was their crew layout.

American M3 Medium*KOFFKOFFKOFF*

Which probably looks a lot like the Behemoth on the inside...

[BloodRose]

American M3 Medium*KOFFKOFFKOFF*

Which probably looks a lot like the Behemoth on the inside...

Thats an odd way to spell "Coffin for Seven Brothers"

[AdmiralObvious]

I've seen numbers be as low as 2, but generally no less, since the driver can't really handle the turret and the actual hull at the same time. You can have more, obviously (T-35 comes to mind). Modern tanks managed to get down to 2, but quite a few modern tanks don't have an autoloader, and require at least 3-4 people.

[pixelgeek]

I think that the numbers also depend on the tech level of the vehicle and any electronic upgrades that it has had. 3025 era vehicles might have required more crew and vehicles with upgraded electronics or versions built post-Clan may have either needed fewer crew or been more responsive and effective with the same number

[pixelgeek]

We do not talk about French tanks and the abomination that was their crew layout.

Italian tanks had the same issues. Russian early tanks with hand crank turret traverse.

[Nav_Alpha]

This is something that has always bemused me about BT - especially as a former APC crew commander.
Take the Alacorn Mk VI for example. At 95 tonnes, it should have a crew of 7 based on the rules.
But this beasty is armed with just three Gauss Rifles.
So, there is a crew commander, a driver, a gunner and maybe an assistant gunner/loader.
What the hell are the other three doing? Providing back rubs for the main crew? Handing up shells?

[Cannonshop]

This is something that has always bemused me about BT - especially as a former APC crew commander.
Take the Alacorn Mk VI for example. At 95 tonnes, it should have a crew of 7 based on the rules.
But this beasty is armed with just three Gauss Rifles.
So, there is a crew commander, a driver, a gunner and maybe an assistant gunner/loader.
What the hell are the other three doing? Providing back rubs for the main crew? Handing up shells?

lubricating the mechanisms with little squeeze bottles...
re-fastening the drives after each shot.
re-inputting the targeting system's software after each EMP from the main guns.
re-attaching the internal mechanisms after (and during) movement...

[pixelgeek]

Take the Alacorn Mk VI for example. At 95 tonnes, it should have a crew of 7 based on the rules.

Maybe the crew includes support staff?

[Colt Ward]

Maybe the crew includes support staff?

Which is what someone threw out . . . considering a vehicle's crew does most the maintenance and should not not the tech support like a mech, ASF, Small Craft or even BA . . . yeah.

[dgorsman]

It's an Alacorn.  They maintain the track tension gauges (aka drink the beer).

[worktroll]

It's my understanding that the main elements of military experience in the early creators/players of BattleTech was naval aviation. So fighter pilots and carrier crews provided a lot of the military paradigms in the early work.

And, according to all the PBI or trackheads I've talked to, it shows ... :wheelchair:

[Kojak]

I really don't understand what's so confusing about the Alacorn. Every one of them comes with your standard seven-crew assault tank complement: commander, driver, gunner, concierge, masseur, sous-chef and DJ. This is just basic army stuff, guys. Come on.

[Crimson Dawn]

It's an Alacorn.  They maintain the track tension gauges (aka drink the beer).

Dang it I was going to say that!

[marauder648]

This is clearly a thing where fluff and rules tends to be VERY separate things. Using the Alicorn as an example, its 7 man crew requirement is absurd and it would probably have a 4 man crew

Commander
Gunner
Driver
'loader' (its probably got autoloaders and there's not some poor sod hefting rounds into breeches, and the loader's job is to keep an eye on the loading system and weapons as a whole, and probably doubles as the radio man).

Something like the Scorpion light tank would probably have a 3 man crew. Driver, Commander, Gunner, older or lower tech versions might throw a loader in there if the gun's like a modern tank gun and needs someone to hump and dump shells into breeches. Otherwise its an autoloader and the bow MG's probably aimed/fired remotely by the commander or driver.

In my upcoming Hell's Horses book I said that even their largest tank a 95 tonner has a crew of five

Commander
Gunner
Driver
'loader'
and DSO or Defence Systems Operator and he's the guy/gal who operates the defensive weapons and doubles as a radio man.

A hovercraft like the Epona would probably have a 2 man crew, and so on and so forth. The whole 1 crew per 15 tons is bonkers but its just a rules abstraction. Stuff like remote weapon systems and the like were pretty much a pipe dream and 'sci-fi' when the rules for Btech were written in the late 70's early 80s but even with the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars, we'd not loose the ability to make those, sure you might have more bulky systems and now we need to cram another crew into the hull who's sole job is to direct and fire the SRM-2 and MG's but its still done remotely. Not by some bod physically firing the weapon.

[Daryk]

That's twice now someone has said the Scorpion should have a crew of 3.  By the rules, it's 2...

[Asgo]

That's twice now someone has said the Scorpion should have a crew of 3.  By the rules, it's 2...

the third is  the obligatory hype man, no one goes out into the field without one. ;)

[marauder648]

That's twice now someone has said the Scorpion should have a crew of 3.  By the rules, it's 2...

Two man crews in a tank are really inefficient as it puts waaaaaay too much of a workload on the Commander who would also be the gunner. Plus visually it looks more than big enough for 3 men. Here real world knowledge and experience is bleeding in.

If a Scorpion had a turret like say



Then yeah I'd be more inclined to say it was a 2 man crew but even then you'd really need 3  as the Commander shouldn't do anything but command/direct his/her tank. And the Mobile gun system above has a 3 man crew, all in the hull. 2 Man crews are generally really a bad idea for a combat vehicle outside of VERY small ones or helicopters.  On a hovercraft like say the Epona they probably have a 2-man crew (mainly due to size constraints how the hell could you fit more than 2 blokes into here -



And in this set up the roles are obviously more split

The Commander would also be the driver, and the gunner would do that and probably be the radio operator. With a 2 man crew and their high speed they'd really operate more like a modern attack helicopter than anything resembling how tanks operate.

[Nav_Alpha]

Two man crews are not unheard of for APCs - crew commander/gunner and driver.

It's my understanding that the main elements of military experience in the early creators/players of BattleTech was naval aviation. So fighter pilots and carrier crews provided a lot of the military paradigms in the early work.

And, according to all the PBI or trackheads I've talked to, it shows ... :wheelchair:

This certainly shows in how Mech companies, etc are structured like fighter squadrons and not tank squadrons.

[marauder648]

Two man crews are not unheard of for APCs - crew commander/gunner and driver.

This certainly shows in how Mech companies, etc are structured like fighter squadrons and not tank squadrons.

Oh indeed RE APC's 2 men is fine, the gunner's usually the vehicle commander anyhow and he's just firing a HMG or something or one of the bods in the back is. But for a fighting vehicle you ideally need 3 to free up the Commander from doing stuff  that's not commanding/directing the vehicle.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, the difference is the APC is for moving people in a protected manner & avoid contact with heavier vehicles while the tank is to go after other vehicles.  For instance, the Stryker MGS or ATGM versions just have the 2 crew . . . and has problems firing on the move.

[Moonsword]

This is something that has always bemused me about BT - especially as a former APC crew commander.
Take the Alacorn Mk VI for example. At 95 tonnes, it should have a crew of 7 based on the rules.
But this beasty is armed with just three Gauss Rifles.
So, there is a crew commander, a driver, a gunner and maybe an assistant gunner/loader.
What the hell are the other three doing? Providing back rubs for the main crew? Handing up shells?

Chief cook and bottle-washer, assistant cook and bottle-washer, and embedded journalist and/or comic book artist.

[Black_Knyght]

This is something that has always bemused me about BT - especially as a former APC crew commander.
Take the Alacorn Mk VI for example. At 95 tonnes, it should have a crew of 7 based on the rules.
But this beasty is armed with just three Gauss Rifles.
So, there is a crew commander, a driver, a gunner and maybe an assistant gunner/loader.
What the hell are the other three doing? Providing back rubs for the main crew? Handing up shells?

R O F L M A O !!!

[Asgo]

actually you need always about the double number of people for:

[skiltao]

I really don't understand what's so confusing about the Alacorn. Every one of them comes with your standard seven-crew assault tank complement: commander, driver, gunner, concierge, masseur, sous-chef and DJ. This is just basic army stuff, guys. Come on.

How sure are we that this so-called "Alacorn" is an "assault tank," and not an infantry squad trying to get away with carrying a third support weapon?

It's my understanding that the main elements of military experience in the early creators/players of BattleTech was naval aviation. So fighter pilots and carrier crews provided a lot of the military paradigms in the early work.

And, according to all the PBI or trackheads I've talked to, it shows ... :wheelchair:

This rule is from 1997 though, not the early creators/players.

What the hell are the other three doing? Providing back rubs for the main crew? Handing up shells?

Might exist only on paper, as an abstraction of higher pay and better multi-target capability. Or could be a full second crew to keep the tank in the field more.

[grimlock1]

It's an Alacorn.  They maintain the track tension gauges (aka drink the beer).

I swear I heard a similar anecdote in a documentary, somewhere but damn if I can remember what it was.  Nobody around here seems to have heard the story before either.  That's annoying. 

[Black_Knyght]

What the hell are the other three doing?

Kind of reminds me of something the Nestor said in "Battle Beyond the Stars" = "We always carry a spare..."

[Colt Ward]

grimlock, probably something from Vietnam but I cannot find it.

[Wolf72]

I thought 1/15 was more of a recommendation and you could drop a few for fluff reasons if you needed?

Could be from reading to much board material though.

[Daryk]

As I recall, every combat vehicle has a "rumble seat" these days, so you could certainly stuff a third person in there if you wanted to...

[AdmiralObvious]

As I recall, every combat vehicle has a "rumble seat" these days, so you could certainly stuff a third person in there if you wanted to...

Isn't the "rumble seat" generally considered to be the commanders chair?

[Daryk]

That's probably why it's the only seat that allows one to comfortably sit with half their body outside the armor...

[Sartris]

If you’re not outside the tank how are you supposed to hit the target with your sword?

[Daryk]

 ;D

[BloodRose]

ON a side note, I should mention something from the Demolishers fluff
"The number of crew in a Demolisher varies. Sometimes there is a Commander, a driver, two Gunners (what), two Loaders, and one Communications/Engineer man. ~~~ The number of crew members depends on when the tank was produced."
Personally I always fluff 5 or 6, Commander, Driver, Gunner, Loader, Loader, and maybe Assistant Driver. MG variants get 2 extra crew to work the pd weapons.

[pixelgeek]

Personally I always fluff 5 or 6

That must cause a lot of chaffing.

[Daryk]

That's funny on too many levels to be legal in most states!  ;D

[mbear]

Personally I always fluff 5 or 6,