A Matter of Scale

[mechasaurus]

I did a couple searches, and there were a couple of old necro threads, but they ask if I want to respond from 2021 or start new, so here goes...

It seems that Catalyst is using 1:265 for the current plastic mech miniatures.  I've measured the Atlas sculpts from the Alpha Strike Box and the Inner Sphere Direct Fire Lance Force Pack.  They are 57.5 mm and 56 mm respectively (+/- 0.5 mm in each case due to parallax, straight edge positioning, etc.).  Also, the force pack one is sort-of walking, so maybe that accounts for about 1 mm.  This gives a range of 15.2 to 14.8 m.  Not bad.  At worst, it's within only about 0.2 to 0.6 m at 1:265, but of what?

Battletech Universe states the height of the Atlas is 15.4 m.  So, after all the years of debate, we now know the height of the Atlas.  It's 15.4 m.  End of.  I was told that later fiction trumps earlier fiction, so if it was stated differently earlier, the Atlas is now 15.4 m.  That's very close to 1:265 scale with the miniature and ties in.  I can buy it, both from the miniatures AND Battletech Universe.  It seems incontrovertible that the Atlas is 15.4 m at this point.  At 56 mm, the scale is exactly 1:275.  At 57.5 mm, it varies from 1:265 by only 1.1%

Here's a challenge, though.  Battletech Universe also states the Visigoth's wingspan is 12 m, yet the miniature's wingspan is 67 mm.  At 1:265, that's 17.8 m!!  There's a discrepancy.  It's worse, because in Battletech Universe, the Visigoth's drawing is scaled so far down, that it looks like the 1.7 m human depicted can't even fit in the cockpit!  What happened there?

So, are the mechs scaled to 1:265?  The Atlas miniatures and Battletech Universe together suggest yes, and the height of the Atlas is 15.4 m.

Are the fighters also scaled to 1:265?  Not possible, if trying to reconcile the miniatures with Battletech Universe.  Worse, it looks like Battletech Universe flubbed the scale of the Visigoth, so now, can we also not trust the Atlas?

And, finally, are the current vehicles (in the Mercs Kickstarter) scaled to 1:265?  They look good to me, but is that right?

[worktroll]

There is no consistent scale, but modern minis look pretty reasonable, and I think we just need to leave it at that.

For example, volume-wise the Awesome is thicker than the Atlas, despite the tonnage difference. But it looks OK. And I don't have the vehicles in hand to check, but consider the Long Tom & trailer that now fits in one hex base.

And there's no way the vehicles are 1:265. Micro armour is true 1:285, and the Savannah Master mini is about as big as a Micro APC.

The nuplastics are certainly more consistent, bypassing problems in the classic metal moulding process (the squeeze) which has thrown metal minis out of true in the past. But scale's an aspirational target ;)

[Maephi13]

Frankly battletech minis are not printed at a quality of detail level to which an actual scale conversion being internally consistent is necessary. The mini's aren't to scale with the maps they are played on (Being like 4x too large for hex maps) and the hex base itself limits options at least a little bit. I agree that 'close enough' is plenty for where Battletech is at as long as things remain relatively consistent.

[mechasaurus]

There is no consistent scale, but modern minis look pretty reasonable, and I think we just need to leave it at that.

For example, volume-wise the Awesome is thicker than the Atlas, despite the tonnage difference. But it looks OK. And I don't have the vehicles in hand to check, but consider the Long Tom & trailer that now fits in one hex base.

I think the idea would be maybe to have heights be consistent.  This is especially true now, since there is a published number for the Atlas.  I'm perfectly fine leaving the actual amount of chonk up to the artists.  Maybe that particular mech has a lot of void spaces or something.

And there's no way the vehicles are 1:265. Micro armour is true 1:285, and the Savannah Master mini is about as big as a Micro APC.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.  The Savannah Master is tiny, but if it's at a bigger scale, wouldn't it be bigger?

The nuplastics are certainly more consistent, bypassing problems in the classic metal moulding process (the squeeze) which has thrown metal minis out of true in the past. But scale's an aspirational target ;)

Frankly battletech minis are not printed at a quality of detail level to which an actual scale conversion being internally consistent is necessary. The mini's aren't to scale with the maps they are played on (Being like 4x too large for hex maps) and the hex base itself limits options at least a little bit. I agree that 'close enough' is plenty for where Battletech is at as long as things remain relatively consistent.

Well, hang on, vertical scale has always been different than horizontal scale.  Map scale is precisely defined.

I don't think it would be too hard an exercise to say, "Okay, all models will be 1:265 (except where explicitly stated - like map scale dropships), and all can start from a 15.4m Atlas."  That way, if they sculpt a Locust that's smaller, it really is smaller (and I think the current line is doing fairly well in this regard).

In fact, I'm inclined to say that the current line of miniatures rules, especially if it's 1:265.  This includes the Visigoth.  I have some trouble imagining the Visigoth with only a 12 m wingspan.  However, it works well with the model!  The model gives a 17.5 m wingspan.  It's possible that there's an issue with the Battletech Universe number.  Also, check out the 1.7 m human.  It's closer to 2.6 m!  A 12 m wingspan Visigoth makes it smaller than both the Hornet and Super Hornet, with an impossibly small cockpit. This is even though the Visigoth is twice the all up tonnage of the Super, and has a very long wing.

[CarcosanDawn]

Wait some fighter I've never heard of has a wingspan that doesn't match a mini I don't own as determined in a book I plan to buy?

That's it, I quit.

(/s)

[Daemion]

Well, the nuPlastics are better, but they still have volume issues, especially where transports are concerned.

Sure, the new Maxim is twice the size of the old mini, however, I still can't fathom it fitting 30 to 35 guys (I'm including crew in the count) when looking at the potential spaces taken up by the turbines along the sides of the aft and potential duct work to get air to the cushion underneath. 

And, when you consider the size of tanks in general, and then look at something like the Karnov which is supposed to be a bulk lifter, You will want something muuuuch bigger than what's currently available.  If you've ever gotten a 1/300 scale Airliner, it's pretty big, even for the fuselage.  I don't have the shuttle carrier one I picked up ready to hand for photographs, but it takes up a good 5-7 inches both long and wide.

So, if you want a visual sample of how things 'should' look, I give you some old toys out of the 80s that got it pretty close to right. 

The Thunderwolf is what the Karnov should be.  It's got more guns, but the profile is right.

The Trident would make a good Heavy BattleMech Recovery Vehicle.  It's normally got a huge fuel tank on it, but this used one I picked up is missing that, so I have plans.

Classic Ral Partha Kurita Jump Troops in with scale.  The Zahn is from MWDA, but when I look at it compared to the classic infantry, it looks like it could pass for a Packrat.  (Volume!)  And a Megaforce V-ROCS MBT standing in as either a Scorpion or Vedette.

[Daemion]

And I get why scale is an issue.  They want to keep things playable on the hex-map scale they've chosen.  Those toys wouldn't work on that map.  However, if you scaled the map to the minis, with 4"-5" hexes, then they would fit. 

That's why I went 'Map scale' as a personal project.  I've gotten as far as I care to go with Mechs.  Wouldn't mind doing a few more vehicles instead of relying on Monsterpocalypse GUARD and Shadowsun Syndicate vehicles as proxies.  (They look nice.  Don't get me wrong.)  But, the compromise scale of 1/500 (Battleforce) doesn't quite seem appealing even though I can find a LOT of stuff that is geared to that scale.  Proper 1/300 line minis seem better fit for that than the larger.  A lot of the old metal transport sculpts of the Heavy APC and Maxim work better at that scale, because I can imagine them carrying the requisite amount of little 4mm dudes. (See the attached for the comparison. That's a BF scale Mad Cat and a kitbashed Warhammer among the Maxim and Heavy APC along with one of the more recent standard APCs.  I drew a 4mm guy on the paper there to show how big an infantryman should be.)

And, I get eyesight issues and assembly for the smaller stuff can be a pain.  My eyesight isn't what it once was.  If I don't get the right lighting to paint by, I can't expect to do more than simple base coats on stuff that needs prep. Detail work and checking on lines are now done at very specific times of day in my house.

But, the map scale stuff helps illustrate scale, is easy to port and allows for stacking. The BattleForce Scale is a little bit of a tighter fit, but does the same.  And, to be honest, 2" hex-maps wouldn't be that bad to field.  Sure, probably won't get the full half-kilometer by kilometer layout if you kept the dimensions of the maps the same, physically.  But, you've got to start looking at playability, and the growing OCD of the newer generation when it comes to things like scale.  It's probably one of the reasons so many people want to go to open tabletop instead of sticking with the easy hex maps.

It's getting to the point where I'm having a hard time exercising my imagination with my mind's eye trying to imagine things are at a different scale (Object in mirror...) than what I see when using stock official minis on stock official maps.  It's easy to forget that's the case, and you run into people thinking Mechs are slow and combat is laughably short-ranged when they're actually not. 

[Daemion]

I think the idea would be maybe to have heights be consistent.  This is especially true now, since there is a published number for the Atlas.  I'm perfectly fine leaving the actual amount of chonk up to the artists.  Maybe that particular mech has a lot of void spaces or something.

Honestly, I didn't get the reason for bumping up the Atlas to 15.4 meters tall.  I was perfectly fine with the idea of mass and volume working to the horizontal in a lot of ways, instead of purely vertical.  The classic Ral Partha metal Atlas from the 90s is still my ideal Atlas Mini, and it's a centimeter shorter than any of the resculpts which came later.  In fact, it is in line with the vintage Beemer, and it's got more girth than most other Mechs making it feel hefty and 100 tons even though it doesn't stand head and shoulders over other Mechs. 

I say bring back the fat 12 meter monsters, please.

[mechasaurus]

Wait some fighter I've never heard of has a wingspan that doesn't match a mini I don't own as determined in a book I plan to buy?

That's it, I quit.

(/s)

Raarrrr!  Nerd Rage!  AMIRIGHT?!?!     Nevermind that we own both Battletech Universe and the Visigoth (and I'd kind of like another - it's a cool looking sculpt)!

The reason I care is actually because of this thread:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=81387.msg2043155#msg2043155

I've been trying to map out a Union Class dropship.  Originally, I had deck plans in mind, but once I printed a paper deck to block it out with miniatures, I started wondering about maybe 3D printing a deck for a diorama or something!  At that point, you have to ask questions like: how big is a mech bay?  How big is a bay door?  For that matter, how big is a mech?  That led me to the miniatures and Battletech Universe for settling on 15 + m (15.4 now) for that Atlas height, which helps determine a minimum deck height (both m in fiction, and mm for any potential model/diorama).

Well, the nuPlastics are better, but they still have volume issues, especially where transports are concerned.

For big enough transports (dropships) they have to explicitly reduce to 'map scale.'  I'm okay with that.  If mech scale is 1:265 for the vertical, then it's fine if they say (right on the box) map scale. 

Sure, the new Maxim is twice the size of the old mini, however, I still can't fathom it fitting 30 to 35 guys (I'm including crew in the count) when looking at the potential spaces taken up by the turbines along the sides of the aft and potential duct work to get air to the cushion underneath. 

Oh... that other sci-fi miniatures game is BAAADDD for that!  Ever try to squeeze 10 fully-armed troops into a clown-car sized Rhino?  Much less, warriors the size of Elementals?

And, when you consider the size of tanks in general, and then look at something like the Karnov which is supposed to be a bulk lifter, You will want something muuuuch bigger than what's currently available.  If you've ever gotten a 1/300 scale Airliner, it's pretty big, even for the fuselage.  I don't have the shuttle carrier one I picked up ready to hand for photographs, but it takes up a good 5-7 inches both long and wide.

A C17 is 53 m long with an almost 52 m wingspan.  You'd need 2 hexes by 2 hexes just to accomodate it at map scale. 

Honestly, I didn't get the reason for bumping up the Atlas to 15.4 meters tall.  I was perfectly fine with the idea of mass and volume working to the horizontal in a lot of ways, instead of purely vertical.

Like it or not, at least it gives me a number which ties in reasonably closely to the miniature.  If I had to guess, that number helps make the Atlas the king of the battlefield.  If TPTB have decided that the Atlas is the tallest, it's reflected when I compare the miniature to many of the other assualt mechs, Clan and IS!

[Daemion]

Like it or not, at least it gives me a number which ties in reasonably closely to the miniature.  If I had to guess, that number helps make the Atlas the king of the battlefield.  If TPTB have decided that the Atlas is the tallest, it's reflected when I compare the miniature to many of the other assualt mechs, Clan and IS!

And, that's why I'm not a writer for official BattleTech, and can ignore some details when I play or write my fanfic. 

[Daemion]

And, on top of that, I blame the Lyrans for the bigger Atlai.

[SteelRaven]

Scale hasn't been a big deal for BT for most of the games history being a very proxy friendly game, it's only become more important to players do to 40K influence on the tt scene as a whole.

[Daryk]

I'd say scale has been NO deal at all... heck, you can use bottle caps as long as you mark which direction is "front"! :D

[worktroll]

If it looks right to you, it's right.

I really like using MW:DA infantry & BA bases, even though they're not "to scale" mathematically. But they're big enough to be easier to give basic paintjobs, and big enough to see the details. And a bunch of infantry on a 'kidney base' look like a (bigger) bunch of infantry for game purposes.

[Daemion]

Well, I also don't need my BattleMechs to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Mobile Suits to be superior, effective combat machines.

If it looks right to you, it's right.

I really like using MW:DA infantry & BA bases, even though they're not "to scale" mathematically. But they're big enough to be easier to give basic paintjobs, and big enough to see the details. And a bunch of infantry on a 'kidney base' look like a (bigger) bunch of infantry for game purposes.

This is true.  One of the reason I prefer them and the vintage Ral Partha infantry.  And, they're easier to mod.  Even with the larger Ral Partha infantry, I run the risk of them snapping off at the ankles.  The newer smaller proper wargaming scale 6mm infantry are much harder to work with and easy to break.   I actually don't mind the notion of using 1/200 scale for a lot of vehicles and infantry with Mechs.  Sure, it makes me think that a lot of Light Mechs are cramped and too small.  So, there's a give and take.

[Daemion]

And, since scale isn't supposed to be such an issue, it also makes me wonder why we're not getting price-point sizing, where a light Mech stands the same height as an assault Mech.  Y'know, kinda like how Micro Machines has Star Trek and Star Wars ships all over the place.

If they stood relatively at even height, I could at least justify it with 'material density' for the different brands of structure and armor we get, and can think that heavier Mechs are using denser, heavier materials. 

[mechasaurus]

Scale hasn't been a big deal for BT for most of the games history being a very proxy friendly game, it's only become more important to players do to 40K influence on the tt scene as a whole.

Well, as I mentioned, my concern isn't really game play or map scale.  I'm thinking more in terms of modelling.  It's then fair of you to ask, "okay, why not just find some bigger model and do your own thing?". Well, it's personal, but I kind of like the idea of something that could be a model, but also could be a standard playing piece!  It's sort of like checking to see if a UCS Lego kit, a model, has a minifig play space inside!  The dual purpose appeals to me.  I'm not interested in getting some old Macross model and doing a diorama (and I've seen a couple really cool ones)!

Also, a consistent scale isn't everything, but is at least one sign that care and attention is being given to the whole line, rather than treating each one as a unique one-off.

[Daemion]

That!  That is a good explanation as to why I actually try to adhere to scale when I can. (One of the reasons I picked up Titanicus and Aeronautica when I could afford them was that they're scale with BT figures, nominally, and scale to each other, and I'm willing to drop a little scratch on an Legions Imperialis unit or two just to have some 40k inter-universe firefights.  Got in on Robotech RPG Tactics for the same reason, and have pined to pick up more of the UC Unit 8cm Gundam models, as well.)

It's not JUST a playing piece, but also a display piece.  On the flip side, it's one of the reasons I can't just collect figurines and toys, either.  Being a board gamer and role player, I look at buying things that I can use in games, and that come close to particular scales.  Fantasy and Castle Lego minifigures for DnD, for example.  Really cheap Transformers that are no more than 2 inches tall to mod and paint for cross-over BT play.  Gumball machine robot figures for the same reason.  Anything else, I look at it, it looks nice, but I have limited space and don't want to waste it.

See the attached images for some examples. (Yeah.  Those bigger lava monsters are from Mighty Max kits.  And the smaller ones were The Thing from the Puppeteer Marvel Hero Clix figure.  I had a couple.)

[Daemion]

Another attached photo showcasing my scale addiction. 

So, I can see the appeal of wishing for better consistency.  Thought, there is a point where I have to shrug and say, "Close enough."

Of course, scale is also why I did my travel pack Map-scale collection, as well as a brief, although not forgotten, foray into 1/500 BattleForce scale, as well as 1/144 models.
See attached photos for examples.

[Desert Scribe]

So, if you want a visual sample of how things 'should' look, I give you some old toys out of the 80s that got it pretty close to right. 

The Thunderwolf is what the Karnov should be.  It's got more guns, but the profile is right.

The Trident would make a good Heavy BattleMech Recovery Vehicle.  It's normally got a huge fuel tank on it, but this used one I picked up is missing that, so I have plans.

Thanks for posting these. I have a converted Thunderwolf that I've used for Ogre, and I was wondering about what it could proxy. I also have some 1/350 LCACs that might work with Battletech minis.

[Desert Scribe]

See the attached images for some examples.

I also see what looks like a Monopoly playing piece. I recognized it because I'm painting one to use as scatter terrain.

[Daemion]

The little shovel tractor? Can't think of what those are called, but you are correct.  Monopoly City, I believe is where I got that from.  There's some great potential map-scale terrain from that one.

[Daryk]

Do you mean the Front End Loader?

[Daemion]

That would probably be it, yes.

[mechasaurus]

That!  That is a good explanation as to why I actually try to adhere to scale when I can. (One of the reasons I picked up Titanicus and Aeronautica when I could afford them was that they're scale with BT figures, nominally, and scale to each other, and I'm willing to drop a little scratch on an Legions Imperialis unit or two just to have some 40k inter-universe firefights.

I love the old Epic.  If I ever get back into that universe, it'll only be LI (or maybe Kill Team cuz it's small and not a big commitment).

Plus, where'd you get that teeny tiny HISS?  Printed?

[Daemion]

Not printed.  It was part of a themed Die-caste metal vehicle 3-pack I got at Wal-mart.  Came with a desert VAMP and Snow Cat, as well.  I managed to find two.  One from Wal-Mart and one from Hobby Lobby.  I'm thinking they're hard to find now, because that was a couple years ago, and they were hard to find then.