Operation REVIVAL - Did the Smoke Jag's lie?

[marauder648]

With the capture of the Outbound Light and her crew being interrogated by the Jaguars, this data was then presented by Leo Showers to the Grand Council as the final shove to get any resistance to an invasion of the IS to get bulldozed over.  We know that basically he spiced up the info he presented, predicting doom and a 'false' Star League forced into existence by the FedCom juggernaught.  But is this lying? Or just putting a huge spin on things and it being a case of 'if you look at it from a certain angle...' kind of logic?

I'm not sure if there's ever been any bit where he presented their 'evidence' to the Grand Council of impending doom (or there is and I can't remember it). 

I'm not sure if I'd call it lying, without going into Rule 4 territory we've got lots of incidents in recent history where Politicians (and all Khans are politicians) put a spin on things to get the support they need. Its (sometimes, rarely) not lying per-say, but in the Clans it would be the equivalent of a bare faced lie. 

So what do you folks think, was it lying or was it spin to get REVIVAL to go ahead?

[AlphaMirage]

I think it was spin.

The Jaguars needed to get a new source of tribute in order to stay competitive.  They needed to go to the IS or they would perish.  Amusingly enough the IS came back to kill them led straight to Huntress from a turncoat Jaguar.

[SethsMatches]

Personally, I think it was a Colossal spin that while technically bouncing between spin and lie, almost, everyone wanted to hear so they eagerly ignored the more suspect and sweeping parts.

Combined with the fear that they had been 'found' and could lose the initiative, ignorance of the IS and their own hubris that their awesomeness was the most awesome it makes sense to me that most of the Grand Council lapped up what the soon to be ilKhan was serving.

He basically dared anyone to call his bluff by making sweeping claims but only the Wolves made any attempt to push back. And even then they could read the room and went for a trial of refusal instead of calling him a liar with no way to prove their claim.

[Orwell84]

IIRC none of the sourcebooks state that Showers outright lied, rather that he simply spin-doctored the information he extracted to suit the Crusader agenda.
While claims of an Inner Sphere threat to the Clan Homeworlds were exaggerated - even if the Great Houses did learn about the Clans, why would any of them waste the time and resources to invade? - Showers' argument that the FedCom could resurrect the Star League under Steiner-Davion rule only seems far-fetched with hindsight. Most Spheroids living in 3048 would have agreed with that assessment.

[marauder648]

I don't know if there's ever been a part in one of the stories where the Grand Council meeting where the Jag's presented their evidence. But I agree with you folks :) From the sounds of it, Showers told the other Khans a mixture of spin, fear mongering and audience pandering. And he must have been damn good at it if everyone bought it, Warden and Crusader alike save the Wolves who were the designated good guys of the Clans in that era. Whilst Leo Showers had the strategic sensibilities of a 3 year old, he seems to have been a damn good politician.

[massey]

Yeah I'd say it's standard political spin.  The thing about politics, and part of why it's so divisive (being careful to avoid a Rule 4 violation here) is that you have to make persuasive arguments about extremely complex issues in the absence of complete information.  You can say "my economic plan is the best", but there's no way to actually know if that's the truth or not.  It's all about appealing to how people see the world and convincing them to go along with you.

It's certainly plausible that ComStar would retrace the steps of the Outbound Light and discover the Clan homeworlds.  They weren't going to (from what I recall that ship was waaay off course), but Showers didn't know that.  And it's certainly plausible that the FedCom would launch another Succession War soon and finish off the Capellans or mortally wound the Combine.  Even if he was proved to be wrong, he's not lying just because he failed to predict the future accurately. Showers made a persuasive argument based on how he viewed the world, and it certainly had a self-serving element to it, but that's not really that unusual.  Showers was the hero of his own mind.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

Of course. Partial truth, half-truths and intentional misinformation are all lies. Allowing people to reach false conclusions through misleading opinions and intentionally withheld data is also lying...it is also very Clan.  Face it, 2+2=3, as long as all challengers lose.

  All Clan rules and realities are malleable, as long as they aren't successfully disputed. Just look at the Clan version of the Star League: It bears absolutely no resemblance to the historical Star League, which means that too, is a lie.

  The Jags still possessed the prisoners, yet no other Clan was permitted to question them. The Jags could have fabricated everything and nobody would have been any wiser.

  Because the other Clans were still afraid of the Jags, I can understand the general reluctance to challenge their veracity.

[glitterboy2098]

to be honest, part of the reason the fedcom didn't conquer their way to a new star league was because Myndo Waterly started pulling strings to avoid that very scenario. the clans couldn't have known enough about comstar's inner ideological stances to predict that sort of thing.

[Takiro]

SPIN!

They controlled the source of the information and were able to play on the fears of the Clans being discovered by the InnerSphere. The very concept of the Great Houses hunting down the descendants of Kerensky and invading their place in the universe is the at the very core of this deception. It turns the Clans persona completely on its head.

One thing that floors me is Coyotes decision to back this. As pillars of the Warden cause you'd think they along with the Wolves would have had the courage to challenge these Crusader claims. I understand that the Wardens will still not win the vote but it will narrow the margin if the Coyotes, Scorpions, and even the Cloud Cobras vote their conscious.

[DOC_Agren]

One thing that floors me is Coyotes decision to back this. As pillars of the Warden cause you'd think they along with the Wolves would have had the courage to challenge these Crusader claims. I understand that the Wardens will still not win the vote but it will narrow the margin if the Coyotes, Scorpions, and even the Cloud Cobras vote their conscious.

They showed their true colors, like most things Clan honor is "questionable" subject.    While Wardens they still wanted to come back to the IS

[Orwell84]

One thing that floors me is Coyotes decision to back this. As pillars of the Warden cause you'd think they along with the Wolves would have had the courage to challenge these Crusader claims. I understand that the Wardens will still not win the vote but it will narrow the margin if the Coyotes, Scorpions, and even the Cloud Cobras vote their conscious.

Out-of-universe reason (AFAIK): when Clan history was first written back in c. 1990, most of the Clans were little more than names. The Coyotes' history as staunch Wardens wasn't actually established until the late 90s when Field Manual: Warden Clans was penned.

In-universe reason: none given that I know of, the afore-mentioned FM:WC doesn't actually say why the Coyote Khans voted for the invasion. It truly is a mystery, given that the Coyotes were the staunchest of Wardens while the Wolves had a significant Crusader faction.

They showed their true colors, like most things Clan honor is "questionable" subject.    While Wardens they still wanted to come back to the IS

Possible, but the Coyotes come across as one of the most conservative Clans and one of the most isolationist in the sense of avoiding outside contact / influence - attacking the Babylon Diet being a prime example. Reading between the lines, the Warden policy of isolationism wasn't solely motivated by honor, but also because the status quo favoured the Wolves and Coyotes most. They had the most and/or best turf and resources in Clan Space, so the Canine Bloc didn't need to expand as poorer and weaker Clans did.

[grimlock1]

IIRC none of the sourcebooks state that Showers outright lied, rather that he simply spin-doctored the information he extracted to suit the Crusader agenda.
While claims of an Inner Sphere threat to the Clan Homeworlds were exaggerated - even if the Great Houses did learn about the Clans, why would any of them waste the time and resources to invade? - Showers' argument that the FedCom could resurrect the Star League under Steiner-Davion rule only seems far-fetched with hindsight. Most Spheroids living in 3048 would have agreed with that assessment.

On the other hand most Spheriods living in 3019 would sooner buy a bridge than bet on the Federated Commonwealth happening.

[massey]

Of course. Partial truth, half-truths and intentional misinformation are all lies. Allowing people to reach false conclusions through misleading opinions and intentionally withheld data is also lying...it is also very Clan.  Face it, 2+2=3, as long as all challengers lose.

  All Clan rules and realities are malleable, as long as they aren't successfully disputed. Just look at the Clan version of the Star League: It bears absolutely no resemblance to the historical Star League, which means that too, is a lie.

That's a pretty broad definition of a lie.  You can argue that if you want, but I think the broader the definition, the more you lose the impact of what it means.

If a used car salesman shows you an old Corvette, and he says "oh yeah, you'll get all the chicks in this car!" that's not technically a true statement.  You are not going to have 3.8 billion women throw themselves at you if you buy a 1986 Corvette with 200,000 miles on it.  But it's also hard to categorize it as a lie because it's so overblown that it's really not meant to deceive.    What the salesman is really saying is "you will look cool in this car, and you will feel more attractive".  Whether that is true or not is debatable, and is not something the salesman has any way of knowing.

We don't have a transcript of Leo Showers' speech to the Grand Council.  We don't know exactly what he argued, or exactly what the captured ComStar explorers told him.  But I don't think it would be too tough to create a persuasive argument to invade based upon what we know, without resorting to lying. 

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

    What the salesman is really saying is "you will look cool in this car, and you will feel more attractive". 

  That's just self-deception...which is also a lie. They deceived themselves by believing Kerensky's assumption that the IS would be reduced to the Stone Age without the Star League.

  Because somebody had the backbone to call out Showers' claims, Jaime Wolf, and company was sent to find out the facts, which was rejected by some of the Clans, as expected...

[massey]

  That's just self-deception...which is also a lie. They deceived themselves by believing Kerensky's assumption that the IS would be reduced to the Stone Age without the Star League.

  Because somebody had the backbone to call out Showers' claims, Jaime Wolf, and company was sent to find out the facts, which was rejected by some of the Clans, as expected...

You can call those lies if you want, but then the term loses any real meaning.

There's a big difference in the car salesman saying "you look cool in this vehicle" when it's not true, and saying "I have a valid title to this car and it's certainly not stolen" when it's not true.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

There's a big difference in the car salesman saying "you look cool in this vehicle" when it's not true, and saying "I have a valid title to this car and it's certainly not stolen" when it's not true.

  Opinion has no meaning. A lie is still a lie.
  There are players in my gaming group who would never look cool, ever. We have one guy who is functionally ****** but kicks butt at Historicon, at any wargame. If his parents were alive, he'd still be living with them, instead of with his sister. I've known Gary since the 1970s. All of his allowance went to gaming. He has never even thought about dating, ever. Gary is a typical, Japanese Otaku (yes, he is Japanese) and I know hundreds like him. Gary has always been out of shape, never even considered fashion, and has a room filled with games, models and figures, which will all be tossed out when he dies, as I've seen all too often over the years. Gary would never buy a new car, or even a used car, just to look "cool", as the concept does not exist in his world.
  When picking sides for a game, Gary tops my list. I'd pick him just to irk other players, because they usually believe that he's an idiot, but Gary follows orders to the letter, without ego. Gary plays because he enjoys playing, he doesn't care about winning or losing, and no matter how many times I've trounced him, he is totally unfazed by any opponent, no matter what the odds.
When a player makes a move and Gary says "That's a stupid move." It is a stupid move. Gary never lied, because lying requires an ego. Lacking an ego, Gary was also very hard to deceive, as an amount of self-deception is also required.
  Gary plays Battletech but doesn't care about universe or the factions. In Gary's eyes, the Clans are like giving WW2 German equipment to WW2 Italian commanders, they cancel each other out.
  As a role player, Gary is lost. An elf is Gary with pointy ears. A warrior is Gary with sword and shield. A Paladin is Gary with a sword and shield...Gary doesn't pretend to be anybody other than Gary.

  Saying that a small lie isn't a lie when compared to a big lie is a lie...and again, self-deception...