Force density on maps

[Colt Ward]

Background information-  I use double blind rules in MM which is where this battle will take place.  I use large maps, frequently a mix between what is put out officially and custom maps- for example, b/c the released KS maps work for this all 4 of the new maps are included as half of 2 maps (2x2 of BT maps) for this battle.

I am replaying a Invasion battle, portions of the 4th Wolf Guards invading Icar against the 3rd Regiment of the 12th Star Guards supported by a armored brigade.  Using information from WCSB, ER3052 & CM Mercs the second battle of the attack has the possibility of 5 companies, regimental command lance and two companies of armor (64 mechs & 24 vehicles) against 25 Omnis & 20 Elemental points.

Is that too many units on a 6x6 BT map that will have some canyon walls that are inaccessible for most mechs- east & west most BT maps (so 16 hexes) will have the canyon walls in the center of that BT map size.  They will typically be at least 4 to 5 levels above most surrounding terrain.

The other option is to step the forces down to 15 Omnis & 10 Elemental points vs 40 IS mechs & 12 vehicles for the same size (6x6 BT) map area.

[Cannonshop]

Background information-  I use double blind rules in MM which is where this battle will take place.  I use large maps, frequently a mix between what is put out officially and custom maps- for example, b/c the released KS maps work for this all 4 of the new maps are included as half of 2 maps (2x2 of BT maps) for this battle.

I am replaying a Invasion battle, portions of the 4th Wolf Guards invading Icar against the 3rd Regiment of the 12th Star Guards supported by a armored brigade.  Using information from WCSB, ER3052 & CM Mercs the second battle of the attack has the possibility of 5 companies, regimental command lance and two companies of armor (64 mechs & 24 vehicles) against 25 Omnis & 20 Elemental points.

Is that too many units on a 6x6 BT map that will have some canyon walls that are inaccessible for most mechs- east & west most BT maps (so 16 hexes) will have the canyon walls in the center of that BT map size.  They will typically be at least 4 to 5 levels above most surrounding terrain.

The other option is to step the forces down to 15 Omnis & 10 Elemental points vs 40 IS mechs & 12 vehicles for the same size (6x6 BT) map area.

that entirely depends how  you're going about it.  one of the tricks we used to use with doing major battles tabletop on only six maps, was phasing deployments so that you don't start with full battalions of 'mechs and/or tanks on the battlefield, instead moving them in in phases set a number of turns apart, with the more vulnerable units going in first, and then the middling units, then the heavier, and finally, (if the game lasted that long) the assaults.

that, at least, handles ONE side of your battle.

for the Clan side, it's even easier, you can phase your deployments based on losses, being as Zell favors one-on-one combat and eschews focused fire, even the Wolf Clan's 'liberal' interpretation means you can begin with a binary or Nova, say, in one sector, and only bring in the next if they're defeated/wiped out.

(which also gives your wolf clanners a bit more room to move, as they won't be tripping over one another or having to divert to avoid stacking issues.)

The real artistry is orchestrating it so that you don't have too cluttered a map to see what you're doing, while still presenting a battle that 'could have' happened. 

The objective for the defender and the attacker are going to be different as well, and that should influence what shows first, and where.  for the Wolf player, the objective is simply to break the defenders while taking as few losses as possible by leveraging their superior training and equipment.  for the defenders it can be more complex-delaying or 'bleeding' the Clan assault prior to a counter attack, holding at all costs, and so on.  It's been a while since I read the entry.

[Colt Ward]

Well, using MegaMek . . . so seeing the map/managing the unit flow is not as much of a issue.  The way the battle reads is that after her 2nd BN got wiped out (last com was panicked and cut out mid-transmission), she gathers a force and prepares the ambush at Pofadder's Gully.  The Wolves detect the IS forces, thanks to the BAP on a Nova (for canon units, means a S) and so are prepared when they do the classic response to a ambush- attack into it.  Pofadder's Gully terrain is basically desert/mesa wasteland, instructions were to take certain BT maps and instead of woods add a level of terrain (or 2) in that spot and randomly scatter +4 level single hex columns on the maps.  So I turned it into a dried up river valley- no trees- where there are a E & W ridge wall with a few openings on each side for access on each side.  Lots of hills and other places for the IS forces to hide in wait for the Wolves to come in.

After the Wolves crush Colonel Caitlin, she falls back to presumably the capital where her DS are waiting- trying to rally her forces and escape off planet.  Elementals end up seizing the DS which causes her to surrender since the 3/12 has nowhere to go afterwards.  Its why I held back a single company (reserve holding the base) which said the most the IS would/could deploy would be 5 companies of mechs - b/c there are 5 stars on the Clan side too.  It also means SOME Elementals have to survive from the two battles to be a decisive enough force to storm the waiting DS.  Also, the mech forces will not rout but they do follow forced withdraw . . . which will get interesting if/when they try to withdraw through the only 3-4 hex wide pass.

Just trying to figure out if 96x96 hexes is big enough to play two battalions vs half a cluster.  Now, there might be merit in a management/story angle for the 5th company to arrive as reinforcements that are staged further away to keep the ambush from being discovered that arrives in 3 or 4 turns while the full Clan force hits the ambush.

[Daryk]

For units that size, the more map the better.  Can you go bigger?

[Colt Ward]

Sure, I will probably have to do a new set variation . . . so you are suggesting 8 tall (N-S) by 6 (E-W)?  So 128x96 hexes?

[StoneRhino]

It really depends upon the players how big a 6x6 map feels. In my experience if you have 10 mechs on a mapsheet it starts to feel crowded. You can view the rows of hexes as being lanes for the mechs to move around in. The more lanes there are the more space you have to move about while the fewer the lanes feels limiting. Add in more mechs and you have more traffic. Even if you have 1 mech per "lane" it still feels crowded as not all of the mechs will want to stay in the same lane all of the time, nor do they all have different movement rates. When terrain is added in those lanes narrow down to probably 50% and the MP differences start to narrow as you add in the need to turn to go around terrain, or up and over it.

I should know how big a mapsheet is, but I believe its around 17x22 hexes. If so once terrain is factored in would likely be 10x22. A 6x3 area would likely be sufficiently deep. My suggestion would be, since you are using MM and not a table, to go with an area that is more along the lines of 10x3 or 10x4. if everyone is starting on the map you have the width that is needed +2 boards to the left and right to allow people to spread out and to give some empty space for maneuver. The length of the map being 4 mapsheets would allow people to advance before engaging, which would also create a channel for movement in the rear of the map. Most likely the majority of the fighting will be done on an area that is perhaps 4x2 towards the center point of the map.

Infantry and vehicles don't affect the feel of being crowded due to stacking allowing for more then a single unit to be present. This helps to avoid the roadblocks that happen with to many mechs on to small of a map, which leads to some moves being modified because the hex is currently occupied.

[Daryk]

With two battalions on one side, I'd go for 8x8...

[Colt Ward]

StoneRhino, table maps are 16.5 x 16.5 hexes, MM does 16x17 but I found the odd hex caused problems with making maps interchangeable so I use 32x32 which allows for 3 or 7 hex city 'blocks.  Only the Wolves will be entering the map, the Lyran mercs will be positioned in ambush along the center of their 'half' of course TBD by the opposing player.  The way to make the maps work, per scenario instructions, was to add +1 to every level on standard BT maps.  All light woods would become +1 level, and heavy as I read it would become +2.  Randomly scattered on the pair of maps would be ten +4 Level columns.  Two of the sides of the battle area were pretty much blocked, they said 12 level walls, I decided to make it more IRL canyon like and have 7-12 ridge walls with a pass on each side (its why they are crossing the feature at that point) and a few small trails or jump 'paths' where meds/lights could get over.  Sight lines and lanes for movement will be extremely restricted and while not spelled out that way in WCSB, ER3052 that sets up such a map gives the IS some of the most favorable terrain to fight in against the Wolves- since they are not big JJ users and terrain negates Clan weapon's long range.  Played out a test before with a star vs company and most combat was mid-short range for the Clans.  Of course, that really leaves a question . . . seeing they were going into such close quarters terrain, would the Wolf forces have refit their Omnis to close range assault loadouts?  It would explain how the much slower 12th Star Guard managed to position themselves in a ambush . . .

I do not want to lose the feel of the fight which was to me, which is the Clan force fighting off a swarm from heavies & assaults where their advantages of speed & range were mitigated.  But I also want, if victorious, the end of the battle to set up the canon aftermath which is the merc colonel having trouble rallying her forces.  Engaged in a running battle as the Wolves push forward to the capital & spaceport to force the planetary gov't surrender and cut off the mercs retreat.

[Cannonshop]

Well, using MegaMek . . . so seeing the map/managing the unit flow is not as much of a issue.  The way the battle reads is that after her 2nd BN got wiped out (last com was panicked and cut out mid-transmission), she gathers a force and prepares the ambush at Pofadder's Gully.  The Wolves detect the IS forces, thanks to the BAP on a Nova (for canon units, means a S) and so are prepared when they do the classic response to a ambush- attack into it.  Pofadder's Gully terrain is basically desert/mesa wasteland, instructions were to take certain BT maps and instead of woods add a level of terrain (or 2) in that spot and randomly scatter +4 level single hex columns on the maps.  So I turned it into a dried up river valley- no trees- where there are a E & W ridge wall with a few openings on each side for access on each side.  Lots of hills and other places for the IS forces to hide in wait for the Wolves to come in.

After the Wolves crush Colonel Caitlin, she falls back to presumably the capital where her DS are waiting- trying to rally her forces and escape off planet.  Elementals end up seizing the DS which causes her to surrender since the 3/12 has nowhere to go afterwards.  Its why I held back a single company (reserve holding the base) which said the most the IS would/could deploy would be 5 companies of mechs - b/c there are 5 stars on the Clan side too.  It also means SOME Elementals have to survive from the two battles to be a decisive enough force to storm the waiting DS.  Also, the mech forces will not rout but they do follow forced withdraw . . . which will get interesting if/when they try to withdraw through the only 3-4 hex wide pass.

Just trying to figure out if 96x96 hexes is big enough to play two battalions vs half a cluster.  Now, there might be merit in a management/story angle for the 5th company to arrive as reinforcements that are staged further away to keep the ambush from being discovered that arrives in 3 or 4 turns while the full Clan force hits the ambush.

Well, you're running an ambush with emplaced units, versus a mobile assault that relies on shock and speed.  In setting up your ambush, you might consider arranging your pre-emplaced units (the 12th Star Guards) and planning their reaction elements.  Too much map, and you lose overlapping fire (which would be necessary for the kind of ambush she was hoping to spring), too little, and you have a traffic jam.  I'd recommend going 4 maps by 3 maps, because it's a gully, not a valley, but set the 'home edge' or entry edge to allow the attempted plan to be attempted.  (Say, setting up entry for 12th Star guards both on the west edge, and on the south edge) while setting the Wolf entry along either the north or east edge (one or the other, not both).

this gives you the interlocking fire of a planned, pre-emplaced ambush in the classic "L" configuration.  scale your longest-ranged units to the ends of the "L" and your short-range hammers closer to the intersection, then have a light cav element from your vehicle pool working along the edges and open sides.  (VTOL units work well for this, but so do fast tanks.)  the idea is to harass and degrade, not stand-that's what those battlemechs along the front immediately facing the Wolf line of advance  are for.  the perpendicular line should be the heavier units (think of it as a "T" made out of vectors of deployment, the cross-bar is your primary defensive line, the ambush line sits parallel to the vector of the enemy's advance and is intended to hit him from the side.)  the 12th's 'plan' is to pin the enemy into committing to breaking that primary line, then hit him in the flank-that's how an ambush works at that scale, right?

you can do this in 4 maps deep by 3 maps wide, using battalion equivalent forces in Clan era play (we often used this sort of scenario back in the day.)  The major problem I see from the Inner Sphere side, is that you aren't going to have enough mobility to adapt if the other side disregards the big, obvious target and goes all-in on a flank.  Further, depending on your 'start point' if the Wolves have already discovered the ambush, they can avoid it by rolling up the side pre-emptively (the L shape only works if it's not immediately detected before fire begins.)

will your scenario also include forced retreat?

[Colt Ward]

Some of what you asked was answered in my last post but firing lanes and LOS.  Most terrain present in the gully will be +2 from the 'floor' of the gully or higher so while LRMs will be able to hit at range with IDF if a mech can see, you will not have the firing lanes the traditional 'L' ambush uses.  The ambush basically comes down to getting the firepower of the assaults and heavies of the mercs into a closer range without having to wade through fire from 'lighter' forces . . . not sure how much lighter it is really, since they are a bunch of Gargoyles.

I try to post up the proposed map tonight, though I will need to figure out how to do the size thing for linking.

[dgorsman]

I think the size is OK with double blind rules in play, together with forced withdrawal for the defenders.  A lot will come down to the players e.g. the Clan side sending a Nova forward for scouting rather than pushing forward in a concentrated group.

[StoneRhino]

StoneRhino, table maps are 16.5 x 16.5 hexurse, that really leaves a question . . . seeing they were going into such close quarters terrain, would the Wolf forces have refit their Omnis to close range assault loadouts?  It would explain how the much slower 12th Star Guard managed to position themselves in a ambush . . .

I do not want to lose the feel of the fight which was to me, which is the Clan force fighting off a swarm from heavies & assaults where their advantages of speed & range were mitigated.  But I also want, if victorious, the end of the battle to set up the canon aftermath which is the merc colonel having trouble rallying her forces.  Engaged in a running battle as the Wolves push forward to the capital & spaceport to force the planetary gov't surrender and cut off the mercs retreat.

That's a huge area to play on. Its been a while since I was on here, but that sounds like terrain that would cause the clanners to swap out their configs. Even if the clanners were promoted as being some dueling nutjobs, the truth is that they were mostly people that were raised in a military environment. Also, as the fluff was expanded it seems that the clans didn't really adhere to zel all that much unless it served their purposes or they were the few hardcore clans. The wolves definitely would have dropped that ritualistic fighting and also adjusted their units. Failing to do so would be a failure to make use of their omni of their omni mechs, which would mean that the one in charge failed to adhere to some basic concepts.

Considering that the terrain has walls and canyons it would be impossible for the wolf force to not send someone or something to check out the area since it would be a clear sign that the defenders did not want people to easily pass through such restrictive terrain and is likely where they would wish to fight a defensive battle. It is definitely not a chance encounter.

It would be nice to be able to play such a massive game to say the least. :D

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, they land and wipe out a battalion- 36 mechs vs 25 Clan mechs & 100 Elementals- and then press on to the capital.  They were spotted waiting in ambush at Pofadder's Gully by a Nova mechwarrior's BAP, but there is not a indication at that point IMO that the Wolves paused to swap out loads- it just adjusted how they proceeded.  So to my thinking the Wolves dropped in a basic mix load out, wiped out the IS battalion, maybe repaired and adjusted pod load for the upcoming terrain and then headed out.  I expect the defenders threw what armor & infantry detachments in front of the Wolf advance they could get into position with the Wolves either blowing through them or skirting a position like say dug in infantry.

The higher speed of the Wolf Omnis does not allow the IS forces to break contact and reset a defensive line- even with the closest armor units from the brigade.

I need to figure out how to shrink the map so I can link it, and then if you want details you can click on it to blow it up.

[Simon Landmine]

I need to figure out how to shrink the map so I can link it, and then if you want details you can click on it to blow it up.

If it's an image that you're linking to, you'll be wanting "[img width=x]image link goes here[img]", where "x" is the pixel width you want it to display with. Clicking on it should then cause it to enlarge.