Author Topic: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?  (Read 11464 times)

Crow

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Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« on: 25 November 2019, 17:41:33 »
Has anyone ever played with the TO rule that gives -1 to initiative rolls with you have 7 tons or more of communications equipment (such as the Mobile HQ?

Did it make a difference? Or is that BV/tonnage better spent elsewhere?
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markhall

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #1 on: 25 November 2019, 18:05:40 »
Generally only field them in Scenario missions. Where they are an objective.

But 300 BV for an Initiative bonus feels worth it to me.
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Daryk

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #2 on: 25 November 2019, 19:08:32 »
If you're talking about the rules on page 194, it's +2 for 7 tons of Communications Equipment.  You only need 3 for +1 (and most units get 1 ton "free" with their controls/cockpits)...

Mendrugo

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #3 on: 25 November 2019, 22:47:45 »
Our group used a mobile HQ in the Jihad Chaos Campaign.  It consistently enabled us to win initiative, and that became such an advantage for us that the GM started specifically targeting the HQ.  When poor communication with the group resulted in the HQ being deployed on the edge of our formation rather than the center, it was swiftly obliterated.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #4 on: 26 November 2019, 00:29:29 »
Did it make a difference? Or is that BV/tonnage better spent elsewhere?

It makes a difference, sure. But you can just field a cheap-ish command mech like a Phoenix Hawk or Wolverine to get the same bonus in a pickup game.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #5 on: 26 November 2019, 01:38:00 »
It makes a difference, sure. But you can just field a cheap-ish command mech like a Phoenix Hawk or Wolverine to get the same bonus in a pickup game.

P-Hawks & Wolverines don't have 7 tons of Commo gear for the +2 Initiative bonus do they?
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #6 on: 26 November 2019, 01:49:24 »
P-Hawks & Wolverines don't have 7 tons of Commo gear for the +2 Initiative bonus do they?

Oh derp, they only get +1 for command mech. It was battle computer I was thinking of for the +2 init bonus.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #7 on: 26 November 2019, 04:36:22 »
Plus, you would need to play with quirks, which makes a lot of people itchy.

I regularly field Mobile HQs in combined arms depolyments. The initiative bonus and ECCM make nice additions and offer new possibilities.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #8 on: 26 November 2019, 09:13:55 »
Q: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?

A: Depends on the size of the scenario.  As with any other "force multiplier", you first need to have something to multiply.  If you're only fielding 2000 BV per side, the initiative bonus might not be worth the BV price tag, rather than putting 300 more BV directly into combat capability.  With a larger force limit such as 10,000 BV, the 300BV gets pretty cheap for what it provides to the entire force, and the only limiting factor is how long you can keep the HQ alive against whatever the enemy decides to throw at it, given the amount of cover and concealment that the map provides.


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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #9 on: 26 November 2019, 09:48:03 »
It's dirt cheap, fast enough to evade heavy attackers, tough enough to survive a turn or twogetting shot at by lighter stuff, and acts as a force multiplier for your entire force. Why would you ever NOT use one? ???

To really get a feel for what one can do for you, play a game sometime where your entire force is fast, heavy cav, skirmishers, backstabbers, theworks. Include a single Mobile HQ. Lemme know how that initiative bonus works out for you.
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Crow

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #10 on: 26 November 2019, 12:45:51 »
It's dirt cheap, fast enough to evade heavy attackers, tough enough to survive a turn or twogetting shot at by lighter stuff, and acts as a force multiplier for your entire force. Why would you ever NOT use one? ???

To really get a feel for what one can do for you, play a game sometime where your entire force is fast, heavy cav, skirmishers, backstabbers, theworks. Include a single Mobile HQ. Lemme know how that initiative bonus works out for you.

Ah, good! So I did have the right idea!
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Daryk

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #11 on: 26 November 2019, 18:08:27 »
Maneuver forces thrive with initiative bonuses.

StoneRhino

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #12 on: 27 November 2019, 03:53:51 »
If you rely upon winning initiative then you have already lost it. Its a nice little bonus, but I have seen people absolutely choke even when they have won initiative 3 turns in a row. Then again it wasn't about the initiative roll results but a lack of ability. The modifier might be helpful or completely pointless depending upon the skill level and tolerance for risk of each side. If you can get the bonus at a low cost then its better to take it then not since if you are using the rule then you should assume that the other side is definitely taking it. Don't expect it to win the game for you, expect it to cancel out a slight advantage, and you won't be disappointed.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #13 on: 27 November 2019, 09:16:49 »
Oh, absolutely. You still need a solid force and tactics. After all, no matter how big your force multiplier, if you multiply it by zero, you still get zero.

Just don't ever underestimate how much it can help said solid force.
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grimlock1

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #14 on: 27 November 2019, 14:47:08 »
Plus, you would need to play with quirks, which makes a lot of people itchy.

I regularly field Mobile HQs in combined arms depolyments. The initiative bonus and ECCM make nice additions and offer new possibilities.
If you are bring Mobile HQs to the table you have already opened up the can of worms that is "Tac Ops."
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #15 on: 27 November 2019, 15:08:57 »
Not necessarily. Remember that TacOps isn't a can of worms, it's a cupboard full of worm cans. Your dietary requirements concern me. It is perfectly legal(and quite common) to bring down and open one can while leaving others on the shelf.

How long do canned worms keep?
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dgorsman

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #16 on: 27 November 2019, 15:30:49 »
The MRE ones (mealworms, ready to eat) last at least a decade.  So... less than that, probably.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #17 on: 27 November 2019, 16:47:47 »
Heh... when I statted out Star League rations, I gave them indefinite "good by" dates...  ^-^

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #18 on: 28 November 2019, 13:02:56 »
  My group only did campaigns with occasional training missions and any HQ asset was invaluable, where the players jockeyed for every advantage on the battlefield possible. Mobile HQs were always a primary target for destruction or capture. I have the distinction of capturing two of them in campaign...so due to the number of vengeful players, my own HQ vehicles often served as bait...

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #19 on: 28 November 2019, 13:04:42 »
Beautiful... it's always nice when you have enough high-value units to serve as bait...  :thumbsup:

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #20 on: 28 November 2019, 13:22:47 »
Anything that helps prevent those 19 turn init losing streaks I inexplicably go on is welcome

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Col Toda

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #21 on: 03 December 2019, 10:36:25 »
From my view Command Console  is better . I remove the 3 Artemis IV FC systems  from a Naganata and use the tonnage for a Command Console . It is a C3 Master mech so it gets +2 initiative  and it can monitor up to 8 remote sensors  . All for 3 tons and 1 extra pilot . Communication  gear is 1 guy per ton to monitor  it. It requires  8 tons and 8 guys to get the +2 initiative  and the remote  sensor monitoring  and the C3 master lets you network  4 combat units to boot . So zero point in HQ Communication  gear . Depending on era.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #22 on: 03 December 2019, 10:54:57 »
From my view Command Console  is better . I remove the 3 Artemis IV FC systems  from a Naganata and use the tonnage for a Command Console . It is a C3 Master mech so it gets +2 initiative  and it can monitor up to 8 remote sensors  . All for 3 tons and 1 extra pilot . Communication  gear is 1 guy per ton to monitor  it. It requires  8 tons and 8 guys to get the +2 initiative  and the remote  sensor monitoring  and the C3 master lets you network  4 combat units to boot . So zero point in HQ Communication  gear . Depending on era.

Which is not a Mobile HQ.

I have not used one in a BV table top game, but I am going to have to consider it since I like things like Locust 5M (huh, which I can play now since the Classic mini can stand in) and Phantom H . . .
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #23 on: 03 December 2019, 11:06:14 »
C3 Masters are a horrible thing to put on a command ride, unless the player is extremely disciplined. Anyone else will try to shoot with those C3 modifiers, which is the cardinal no-no of command. Commanders command. They do not shoot , unless confronted by headhunters.
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Insaniac99

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #24 on: 03 December 2019, 11:31:50 »
C3 Masters are a horrible thing to put on a command ride, unless the player is extremely disciplined. Anyone else will try to shoot with those C3 modifiers, which is the cardinal no-no of command. Commanders command. They do not shoot , unless confronted by headhunters.

In battletech the most common commander still leads from the front, commanding and fighting with with his troops.

Heck, when Grayson stole his marauder he commanded while fighting in an enemy mech with a popped canopy and, IIRC, a hand radio to relay orders.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #25 on: 03 December 2019, 11:37:46 »
I differentiate between a commander and a guy at the front who happens to have a higher rank than his compatriots.

Besides, distracting commanders with combat is hardly the first criminally shortsighted thing we've seen become a staple of Battletech.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #26 on: 03 December 2019, 12:13:04 »


IS commanders never got far beyond the depicted point- which is not surprising since they do not have any field officer schools, they are stuck with 2LT 'leaders!'
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #27 on: 03 December 2019, 16:47:34 »
In battletech the most common commander still leads from the front, commanding and fighting with with his troops.


  Yes, that's the "Hollywood" version. In campaigns, GMs, myself included, penalize any commander and unit for trying to fight and command at the same time. It can't be done unless you adopt the WW2 Soviet "hen and chicks" tactic, where units just follow the commander. That tactic resulted in battles being lost, including an air battle where the Soviet commander landed his plane due to damage, and the rest of his squadron landed as well. The Japanese planes easily destroyed them on the ground.

Insaniac99

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #28 on: 03 December 2019, 17:36:25 »
  Yes, that's the "Hollywood" version. In campaigns, GMs, myself included, penalize any commander and unit for trying to fight and command at the same time. It can't be done unless you adopt the WW2 Soviet "hen and chicks" tactic, where units just follow the commander. That tactic resulted in battles being lost, including an air battle where the Soviet commander landed his plane due to damage, and the rest of his squadron landed as well. The Japanese planes easily destroyed them on the ground.

Or literally any small unit tactics group.  If you have two people on a side in a military engagement, you get one that's the guy in charge or they die very soon afterwards.

  In any small unit engagement you have one guy making the shots where he is under fire and yes also firing off rounds of his own, because the reality is, if you have someone sitting safe from the engagement then they function off of incomplete information and you have to deal with communication break downs and other issues.

  Given most engagements in the BT universe are 4-12 units (and most formations are lucky to see above 12 units during massive parts of the universe history), yeah, the commander is usually on the field. Even if we are talking a large group, like a battalion or regiment, There will be commanders for the battalion, company, and lance, because the reality is that the more people under your span of control, the more broad you need to give your orders.  The Battalion commander tells the company to achieve Objective Y, the company commander will tell Bravo lance to so secure the LZ, but the Lance Commander will give detailed tactics since they have the most information.

Your flight example is actually a quite apt metaphor, in the modern military we still have squadron leaders and wing commanders and use them extensively, and they have operational command when deployed on mission.  But just because you have a commander, doesn't mean you put a brainless peon who can't think for themselves under him.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #29 on: 03 December 2019, 18:14:08 »
*snip*
IS commanders never got far beyond the depicted point- which is not surprising since they do not have any field officer schools, they are stuck with 2LT 'leaders!'
I tried to remedy that down in fan rules (link in my sig)...

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #30 on: 03 December 2019, 18:57:37 »
I quite like C3Ms for command rides.  Not that the Commander should be easy to knock out in the first place, but sneaking through to knock out that Cyclops becomes that much harder when its surrounding bodyguard lance (or even an entire Company) is sharing targeting data with each other.

Edit: To the actual topic, I don't think Comms equipment has much of an effect on BV, and it's fairly cheap, so it's an easy and effective force multiplier that's easily worth using outside of Solaris VII.
« Last Edit: 03 December 2019, 19:00:04 by Retry »

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #31 on: 04 December 2019, 17:09:28 »
Lance and company commanders fight but not battalion commanders and especially not regimental commanders.

As for C3M. I do so enjoy company networks but it bugs me to death that I have to put two C3M on a single unit rather than put the 4th C3M on say a Mobile HQ.

3 lance with C3M -> 3 C3S
Single C3M on the HQ.

Why can't it be done?? Its still within the rules of the C3 itself 3 slaves per master, 3 masters per company master. Why should it matter where that final C3M sits so long as the unit is on the map. :bang: :ticked: :crash:

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #32 on: 04 December 2019, 17:53:48 »
I would go with that personally.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #33 on: 04 December 2019, 20:30:37 »
Or literally any small unit tactics group.  If you have two people on a side in a military engagement, you get one that's the guy in charge or they die very soon afterwards.

  In any small unit engagement you have one guy making the shots where he is under fire and yes also firing off rounds of his own, because the reality is, if you have someone sitting safe from the engagement then they function off of incomplete information and you have to deal with communication break downs and other issues.

  Given most engagements in the BT universe are 4-12 units (and most formations are lucky to see above 12 units during massive parts of the universe history), yeah, the commander is usually on the field. Even if we are talking a large group, like a battalion or regiment, There will be commanders for the battalion, company, and lance, because the reality is that the more people under your span of control, the more broad you need to give your orders.  The Battalion commander tells the company to achieve Objective Y, the company commander will tell Bravo lance to so secure the LZ, but the Lance Commander will give detailed tactics since they have the most information.

Your flight example is actually a quite apt metaphor, in the modern military we still have squadron leaders and wing commanders and use them extensively, and they have operational command when deployed on mission.  But just because you have a commander, doesn't mean you put a brainless peon who can't think for themselves under him.

I think this discussion is treading dangerously into mistaking "Leader" for "Commander".  a Commander's weapon isn't his rifle, it's not his pistol.  it's not his tank or his APC or his Helicopter or his 'mech.  His weapon is/are his soldiers.  a Poor Commander fights with his rifle, this is not like a Leader, a Leader fights with his rifle, and guides his personnel, but only to achieve the Commander's objectives.

This is what made Victor such a gawd-awful commander AND leader.  His only saving grace being that his opponents were also trying to ride both horses and he was lucky in his subordinates having enough initiative and intelligence to 'fill the gaps' in his shortcomings.

Focht, by contrast, was a Commander, and understood the difference between Command, and Leadership to a degree that let him put green troops up against the Elite of the Clans at Tukayyiid and win-because while the Clans had a whole mess of Leaders they didn't have any decent commanders.

a C3M is a Leader's tool.  a Command Console or Command post, is a Commander's tool.  This is even reflected in the bonuses-the C3M gives C3 equipped units bonuses to weapons fire, but a command post or console gives a bonus to UNIT initiative.  that is, a bonus to the strategic/tactical position for the entire force, rather than just a to-hit bonus on a number of select elements of that force.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #34 on: 05 December 2019, 00:30:26 »
I respectfully disagree with those definitions.

  A Leader is a person who inspires their people or who sets the tone and gets people to do what they would not normally do through inspiration, respect, and/or fortitude.

A Commander is merely anyone who has the authority to make someone do something, or fear legal retribution if they do not.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #35 on: 05 December 2019, 00:32:21 »
I agree in terms of real life. In game terms, not so much.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #36 on: 05 December 2019, 00:43:40 »
Well, if we are exclusively talking about game then I'd respectfully disagree even more. Many scenarios have players designate a "commander" and improve their gunnery and piloting and get an initiative bonus as long as their mech is alive and on the field -- often with a penalty for when they are removed from combat.

That indicates a commander in game is typically on the field and fighting with his troops

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #37 on: 05 December 2019, 01:45:32 »
In the field, yes. Fighting with the troops and risking said initiative bonus is your choice.

It may be a common trope in Battletech writing that the terms 'ace' and 'commander' are assumed to be synonymous, but nothing forces players to continue that mistake if they choose not to.
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Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #38 on: 05 December 2019, 09:11:14 »
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #39 on: 05 December 2019, 09:52:26 »
That +1 Initiative bonus will work wonders for that company of Urbanmechs operating in the open field.  I'm sure the extra maneuvering advantage will be well utilized.

How about fielding a Mobile HQ and three Jeeps in a 500 BV fight?  The initiative advantage should help the Jeeps survive on the field, more than another 300BV of actual fighting equipment, right?

As pointed out, the Mobile HQ is a force multiplier, applicable and highly valuable in many combat situations, but isn't necessarily worth its BV in all cases.  The OP's question does not warrant a straight "yes" or "no" answer.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #40 on: 05 December 2019, 10:21:31 »
Lance and company commanders fight but not battalion commanders and especially not regimental commanders.

As for C3M. I do so enjoy company networks but it bugs me to death that I have to put two C3M on a single unit rather than put the 4th C3M on say a Mobile HQ.

3 lance with C3M -> 3 C3S
Single C3M on the HQ.

Why can't it be done?? Its still within the rules of the C3 itself 3 slaves per master, 3 masters per company master. Why should it matter where that final C3M sits so long as the unit is on the map. :bang: :ticked: :crash:

You can put the last two C3 masters in two separate units, so long as they're part of the same lance.  So you could field a company of:

Command Lance : MHQ with C3 master, unit with C3 master, 2 slaves
Lance 1: Unit with C3 master, 3 slaves
Lance 2: Unit with C3 master, 3 slaves.

Or even have a MHQ with two masters and 3 slave units in the command lance.


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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #41 on: 06 December 2019, 22:32:19 »
I respectfully disagree with those definitions.

  A Leader is a person who inspires their people or who sets the tone and gets people to do what they would not normally do through inspiration, respect, and/or fortitude.

A Commander is merely anyone who has the authority to make someone do something, or fear legal retribution if they do not.

Leader or Commander, both can be empty titles, Insaniac.  We're talking function here.

FUNCTIONALLY a Commander's weapon are his troops, not his personal gear.  Anastasius Focht was a Commander in function, he didn't strap an assault 'mech to his ass and run off to shoot at bad guys while distractedly barking orders he couldn't follow up on because the Targeting Reticle is full of bogies.

(this being how Victor "commands"-from a position where he doesn't know what's going on beyond direct line of sight.  Lucky for the dwarf, most of his opponents also think this is a good way to command...and he has a mile of plot-armor protection and such to bend the reality so he can succeed.)

That +1 Initiative bonus will work wonders for that company of Urbanmechs operating in the open field.  I'm sure the extra maneuvering advantage will be well utilized.

How about fielding a Mobile HQ and three Jeeps in a 500 BV fight?  The initiative advantage should help the Jeeps survive on the field, more than another 300BV of actual fighting equipment, right?

As pointed out, the Mobile HQ is a force multiplier, applicable and highly valuable in many combat situations, but isn't necessarily worth its BV in all cases.  The OP's question does not warrant a straight "yes" or "no" answer.

is 300 BV the right value? well the books say so, but it's highly situational-initiative bonus is more of a multiplier, rather than additive function.  in a sense it's a bit like that C3 network (or C3i).  It's worth zip if all you have are Urbies and Jeeps up against clantech forces or Manei Domini.

that's kinda true of ANY multiplier though.  the initiative bonus can be absolutely worthless-in the wrong hands.  Even with superior firepower, even with superior firepower ALSO augmented by a C3 network.

but we've had debates over asymmetrical forces and 'initiative banking' behaviours, and there's a reason for that that was clearly illustrated by the (now abandoned) efforts to impose the Force Size Multiplier (FSM) to BV-2.  (When people will move a lone infantryman and save their best units for their last move in the initiative/move phase, that should suggest Initiative has a definite value in shaping the field!)

so maybe the question is not "Is it worth using?" but "Is it properly valued?"

is 300 BV enough? is it too much? that's a lot dependent on the rest of the force composition.  a lance of Urbies supported by jeeps? maybe not so much.  But, with relatively well-built forces of reasonable size?

maybe it's undervalued.  Maybe 300 bv is too low, and what was published as an additive value should be a multiplier instead?  you can do edge-cases either way.

for example, is a CP worth it if all you have are securitymechs and pitchfork infantry up against a bunch of mercs flush with clantech? probably not.  at the same token, though, how overpowering would it be to have those clantech plus C3 plus a command post up against disorganized pirates in 20 ton bugmechs?

When both forces are roughly in parity, however, the initiative bonus can be a significant player. Likewise for a C3 network.

It almost should be re-evaluated as a multiplier for setting BV in a scenario.  A 3025 balanced company with a CP versus a 3025 balanced company *(or even slightly heavier) has a pretty decent chance of winning the engagement if both players are of roughly equal skill.  Better than 50% from start to finish.

it's only when you get into the really gross imbalances that either piece of equipment (C3, or CP) becomes either useless or overpowered.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #42 on: 07 December 2019, 06:52:22 »
I think any real answers to the value question will have to go down in the Fan Rules section...

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #43 on: 07 December 2019, 12:00:46 »
I think any real answers to the value question will have to go down in the Fan Rules section...

i kinda figure that's more if people start actually making rules proposals, rather than discussing the merits of the existing rules vs. systems and whether the values as they exist are actually appropriately reflecting the game impact of the gear in question.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #44 on: 07 December 2019, 12:08:25 »
Has anyone actually said they thought the BV for a Mobile HQ is "right"?  Personally, I've never seen any value in the BV system.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #45 on: 07 December 2019, 13:02:53 »
IIRC MHQs don't pay BV for that initiative bonus at all, so that 300ish BV basically just accounts for the lightly armed platform with a medium laser.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #46 on: 07 December 2019, 13:36:07 »
IIRC MHQs don't pay BV for that initiative bonus at all, so that 300ish BV basically just accounts for the lightly armed platform with a medium laser.
True, the game doesn't place BV value on many abilities, such as special abilities and traits. I've seen battles won by players using Edge tactically, to adjust a hit to a crucial location or enhance a roll, especially when players with three or more Edge wait until the opponent has exhausted their own Edge.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #47 on: 07 December 2019, 13:37:18 »
Leader or Commander, both can be empty titles, Insaniac.  We're talking function here.

I said what I meant.  A leader inspires his men to do better.  A Commander merely has authority.  A Leader may be a commander, and a commander may be a leader.  Neither refers to "the tools they use".

That said,  I don't think we will change each other's minds, or help find an answer to the original question and it might be best to drop it.

Has anyone actually said they thought the BV for a Mobile HQ is "right"?  Personally, I've never seen any value in the BV system.

I find BV very helpful when playing one-off games.  It prevents arguments about whether or not a Mad Cat vs an Atlas is a fair fight.

IIRC MHQs don't pay BV for that initiative bonus at all, so that 300ish BV basically just accounts for the lightly armed platform with a medium laser.

I believe that is correct. 

300BV is a steal for larger BV games with a highly maneuverable force, but a ripoff is smaller or slow-moving forces.

True, the game doesn't place BV value on many abilities, such as special abilities and traits. I've seen battles won by players using Edge tactically, to adjust a hit to a crucial location or enhance a roll, especially when players with three or more Edge wait until the opponent has exhausted their own Edge.

  Having it be a percentage would be nice if BV3 ever game about but until then, I think we have the answer to the original question. 

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #48 on: 07 December 2019, 15:19:01 »
I don't think that Mobile HQ is required unless you make a regiment(or bigger unit's) command and put it far behind of the frontline. In fluffwise it should be exists, with at least one colonel or star and the person's staffs.

If you want to something similar in the company or battalion level, you can take a unit with Command Console instead. It provides you the better buff as well. I bet that most battalion in the real worlds will have a mobile HQ, and for battalion a mobile HQ seems not a bad idea but it must be set back far behind of the combat zone anyways.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #49 on: 07 December 2019, 20:09:41 »
I don't think that Mobile HQ is required unless you make a regiment(or bigger unit's) command and put it far behind of the frontline. In fluffwise it should be exists, with at least one colonel or star and the person's staffs.

If you want to something similar in the company or battalion level, you can take a unit with Command Console instead. It provides you the better buff as well. I bet that most battalion in the real worlds will have a mobile HQ, and for battalion a mobile HQ seems not a bad idea but it must be set back far behind of the combat zone anyways.

so maybe more of an "Alpha Strike" level asset then?  or perhaps a scenario piece where one side is trying to knock out the MHQ on the other side during a headhunting mission (Scenario level rules)?
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #50 on: 07 December 2019, 20:27:01 »
The appropriate amount of communications gear for a battalion is 3 tons (+1 initiative), 4 if they want to talk to satellites.  Seven tons and up (for +2 initiative, and normally what a Mobile HQ has) is for higher echelons.  The fact Combat Vehicles (and 'Mechs) get one ton "free" as part of their control gear/cockpit makes this very easy to achieve.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #51 on: 08 December 2019, 03:01:16 »
I don't think that Mobile HQ is required unless you make a regiment(or bigger unit's) command and put it far behind of the frontline. In fluffwise it should be exists, with at least one colonel or star and the person's staffs.

If you want to something similar in the company or battalion level, you can take a unit with Command Console instead. It provides you the better buff as well. I bet that most battalion in the real worlds will have a mobile HQ, and for battalion a mobile HQ seems not a bad idea but it must be set back far behind of the combat zone anyways.

Battery/Companies have that depending on branch . . . Battalions definitely have a equivalent set up . . . you should see the pop out trucks.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #52 on: 08 December 2019, 05:17:22 »
Yeah. That's my mistake. Command staffs do exists on battalion level so it is nothing wrong to have one for battalion.

But anyway, in Battletech games I think that it is more like the scenario piece rather than an actual roaster component. Tactical support staffs would be needed if your commander is on the frontline, but it doesn't required to be on the heart of the battle unless the attacker want to do headhunting mission and the defender is the guards of HQ. And that's why it is MOBILE HQ in the first place - to avoid enemy headhunters.

In company level, company commander is required to be advance with the commander's subordinates, but in battalion or more level, the commander only needs to issue the order to the others.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #53 on: 09 December 2019, 10:01:48 »
In my opinion, a Mobile HQ should have both a fixed BV and a modest % multiplier for the entire force under its command.  The fixed (but low) BV accounts for the fact that its got a weapon and armor, and CAN engage in combat, although it's not really much good at it.  The BV multiplier accounts for its effect on its subordinate units (including itself).  Put it in a lance with 3 jeeps and that multiplier is negligible, or else put it in a Company with a group of Heavy and Assault 'Mechs and vehicles and that BV becomes rather substantial.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #54 on: 09 December 2019, 10:18:14 »
definitely more than the base BV for the unit.

... does the bonus still apply if you deploy the mobile HQ as a hidden unit?

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #55 on: 09 December 2019, 12:10:42 »
That indicates a commander in game is typically on the field and fighting with his troops

In a game the commander is never on the field. He's the player.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #56 on: 09 December 2019, 12:32:59 »
In a game the commander is never on the field. He's the player.

A: Many scenarios designate a single unit on the field to be the commander.  Therefore a commander would be on the field.

B: If you are playing an RPG where each player is one character on the board and one of the players happens to be the commander, you have a commander on the field.

C: If you have a squad leader, or a Lance Commander -- which every lance should have -- then you have a commander on the field unless you are playing a mech short on your lance.




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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #57 on: 09 December 2019, 13:04:49 »
On the military term, usually 'commander' means the commanding officer of the company or higher level of structure, and the other commanding personnel is 'leader'. So, in this case, if you don't bring a company level or bigger unit, you don't have a commander in the most case.

But, it does not means you can't have a company sized roaster. And as above the word commander is also a game term that nominated leader of the force as well. The player is not exist in the game and is not a commander at all, however.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #58 on: 09 December 2019, 13:35:18 »
The player is not exist in the game and is not a commander at all, however.

Your pieces won't move without the player moving them, let alone decide what to do.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #59 on: 10 December 2019, 05:23:34 »
Your pieces won't move without the player moving them, let alone decide what to do.

But we are not in the game. Rather, we are oversee and move the pieces from the above.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #60 on: 10 December 2019, 09:53:40 »
That doesn't change the fact that a Battletech force never contains any decision makers. It is composed solely of game pieces. As such, we must describe units by their effect in the game, not by any human-specific terms like 'leadership'.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #61 on: 10 December 2019, 10:02:08 »
That doesn't change the fact that a Battletech force never contains any decision makers. It is composed solely of game pieces. As such, we must describe units by their effect in the game, not by any human-specific terms like 'leadership'.

Exactly. Putting the 'commander' in the HQ or an assault 'Mech doesn't change the ability of your force to operate, the 'commander' isn't distracted by piloting a combat unit. In one instance you increase your vulnerability to losing a bonus from intense combat versus a fast VTOL or hidden unit wiping out the mobile HQ in one quick strike.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #62 on: 10 December 2019, 12:21:48 »
Exactly. Putting the 'commander' in the HQ or an assault 'Mech doesn't change the ability of your force to operate, the 'commander' isn't distracted by piloting a combat unit. In one instance you increase your vulnerability to losing a bonus from intense combat versus a fast VTOL or hidden unit wiping out the mobile HQ in one quick strike.

There's arguments in terms of gameplay for either direction, consider the difference between the King in chess, and a Queen.  Arguably, the fact that you have to both protect your king in chess (and it's a piece with SEVERE vulnerability) and can lose that piece to just such an equivalent event (look up: Fool's Mate) doesn't make chess less fun to play, or less tactical, while stiking your 'commander' in the best 'mech w/best guns and gunnery certainly works better for a checkers analogy.

They're both games good enough to have made it through the centuries, but they reflect VERY different sorts of warfare.  Checkers is all about annihilation, the core victory condition being only the complete destruction of all opposing forces, while Chess has a victory condition that can concievably leave the bulk of the opposing force intact, reflecting a different strategic paradigm.

Putting that bonus in a vehicle with terrible manueverability, crap armor, and almost no guns reflects a more chess-like scenario-the owner has to both defend the command post, AND press the attack.  Putting that capability into the most obscenely overpowered 'mech on a side, otoh, reflects more of a checkers scenario, because while that piece may be more powerful than the others, it's still just a piece, and not necessary to the successful achievement of victory.  After all, it's just another piece, just another anonymous resource.

NOT having to protect any specific asset on the board leads to a play that is all attack, all the time-which is certainly favored by some players, and could be confusing when those players are used to 'last man standing', as opposed to more sophisticated and complicated objectives.

"Last man standing" scenarios are a lot more common in the wild, because they're very visceral, but they're also the scenarios most likely to devolve into 'standing at medium range rolling die'.  Those types of games often don't need nearly as much prep as people put into them, and certainly don't have a lot of room for units that aren't some combination of the best armor/firepower (two dimensions) with moderate mobility to get to that medium range RNG contest.

Put stakes on that, though-forced retreat, initiative bonuses, initiative penalties, and it tends to shift the tenor of the table hard, and makes units you tend to overlook a LOT more useful.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #63 on: 08 January 2020, 07:12:08 »
From what I understand  all a mobile HQ provides in the game is a +1 or +2 initiative  bonus and remote  sensor monitoring . Depending  on ERA and resources likely the best option.  I mentioned  the command console earlier  as it too provides a +2 initiative  bonus and the ability  to monitor  some remote sensors  . The mobile HQ requires  1 crew per ton of communication equipment  requiring  7 tons to get the +2 . The Command Console  just provides the the in game bonus with less crew and tonnage .

So yes the bonus is nice and worth it  . But no the mobile HQ  is not the best means of getting it

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #64 on: 08 January 2020, 13:16:06 »
Your also putting your Init bonus at a unit that is easier to shoot at, and as part of your combat power (aka Cyclops or Battlemaster) SHOULD be firing.  The nice thing about the Mobile HQ is that someone is not tempted to put it out there to shoot and be shot at by the enemy.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #65 on: 08 January 2020, 13:53:54 »
I see a command console as a supplement to the mobile HQ, not a replacement.  There's no way a single person in a cockpit can mediate the communications of a half-dozen companies while directing a battle.  That's where all the operators in the mobile HQ come in.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #66 on: 08 January 2020, 16:45:40 »
I have a corollary question: assuming you're using an HQ unit (be it standard or Daimyo), what are the other three units you'd put in its headquarters lance?


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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #67 on: 08 January 2020, 17:36:42 »
Well . . . extrapolating from IRL, it would be something like a supply truck, repair vehicle, and some sort of a guard unit.  Another vehicle that can cover some AA & ground support- Bulldog (AC), Partisan AA Vehicle (50t, wheeled), Vedettes, Scorpions, Zorya . . . basically anything with a turret and smaller AC that can load AA ammo.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #68 on: 12 January 2020, 00:27:58 »
Something with similar speed to the HQ & a better motive type.


So for the traditional Wheeled 6/9? model from TRO3026...


Nothing slower than 4/6 or faster than 10/15.

Tracked or Hover/Vtols.



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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #69 on: 12 January 2020, 00:32:18 »
Why not faster than 10/15?  ???

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #70 on: 12 January 2020, 00:38:35 »
I guess you can,  my point was just stuff that doesn't slow the MHQ down nor so fast it doesn't abandon it.

And really, faster than 10/15 your basically just a recon unit & I don't really need Recon attached to my command Platoon.

Also why I didn't say anything like "Repair/Engineering/Supply"

Those will all have their own sub-units.

My command platoon should be 3 other units that can protect & compliment my Mobile HQ w/o also being more useful on the line  (Like a trio of Awesomes)

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #71 on: 12 January 2020, 04:35:15 »
I suppose that makes sense.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #72 on: 12 January 2020, 18:35:15 »
The appropriate amount of communications gear for a battalion is 3 tons (+1 initiative), 4 if they want to talk to satellites.  Seven tons and up (for +2 initiative, and normally what a Mobile HQ has) is for higher echelons.  The fact Combat Vehicles (and 'Mechs) get one ton "free" as part of their control gear/cockpit makes this very easy to achieve.

Four is required to talk to your own satellites, if one is available.  Five tons is the minimum to hack other satellites.  Technically a mech could use it's engine and comm suite to do this, but only at the cost of being immobilized to get the uplink.  A Mobile HQ, as long as it hasn't suffered a stabilizer crit, can do this on the move.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #73 on: 14 January 2020, 09:50:34 »
Honestly, I had rather pick an Atlas/Cyclopse and put a Command Console on it, if I desperately need for an uplink for the satelite as well as initiative bonus. I don't think that you need to connect with the satelite directly while face to face the enemy either.

After all, Mobile HQ would be required for fluffwise, but it must not on the battlefield or it is already something wrong.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #74 on: 14 January 2020, 10:53:52 »
Honestly, I had rather pick an Atlas/Cyclopse and put a Command Console on it, if I desperately need for an uplink for the satelite as well as initiative bonus. I don't think that you need to connect with the satelite directly while face to face the enemy either.

After all, Mobile HQ would be required for fluffwise, but it must not on the battlefield or it is already something wrong.

Depends on your battlefield . . . for things like this, I typically use MM and at least 3 km x 3 km maps.  And if one side has a advantage I prefer it to be present on the map so it can be countered as a option- like artillery & HQs.  Having a battle line that must be maintained to prevent light cav wrecking the rear areas is a good thing IMO, but then again with MM I play more 'wargame' style.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #75 on: 14 January 2020, 11:02:29 »
Well, if you want to play a battalion or regiment level of theater, then it must be on the table. But I don't think that it is eligible on the platoon(lance) to company level usually.

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #76 on: 14 January 2020, 12:36:38 »
I've had no issues using a Mobile HQ on the map in smaller games. Just need to keep it behind cover or on the move, as the situation demands.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #77 on: 21 January 2020, 16:04:00 »
i've used shielding movement to good effect with units like the mhq

otherwise use cover as much as possible

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #78 on: 21 January 2020, 16:35:59 »
Four is required to talk to your own satellites, if one is available.  Five tons is the minimum to hack other satellites.  Technically a mech could use it's engine and comm suite to do this, but only at the cost of being immobilized to get the uplink.  A Mobile HQ, as long as it hasn't suffered a stabilizer crit, can do this on the move.
  I've put all of those things on a Mule DS with maximum armor and PPC/Arrow IV batteries. It's a poor man's warship/planetary command post. I have never lost one but my players overestimated its capabilities trying to assault a very heavily defended spaceport...they wound up as POWs, and lost a company's worth of Clan omnis to the Capellans, which made all their contract renegotiations with their unit very entertaining, as they had to repay their employer for their losses and ransoms. BTW, using DSs as attack vessels against ground targets is a silly Wolf's Dragoons stunt that doesn't play out on tabletop well...although the players in my campaign used it to destroy a company of infantry holed up in a small town. The town, along with its 200 or so civilians, and the rebel Lyran infantry, was vaporized under the Mule's drive plumes. Needless to say, their Lyran employers were not pleased.

  A mobile HQ is very useful in a battle, but won't make players any smarter...

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #79 on: 21 January 2020, 19:51:54 »
The first rule of WMD is you NEVER use them "danger close"...  ::)

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #80 on: 21 January 2020, 20:17:32 »
The first rule of WMD is you NEVER use them "danger close"...  ::)

danger close just 'upgraded' to heroic sacrifice or war crime depending on your side of the battle.

Mobile HQ seems to be a good unit for your less well equipped planetary militias (the op-for)
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #81 on: 21 January 2020, 20:39:54 »
Good point, it would be something you might expect out of a green unit to overcome their lack of experience.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #82 on: 21 January 2020, 20:53:12 »
The really cool thing is that you can cram 3 tons (equivalent) into a 10-ton APC.  They could be anywhere!  ^-^

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #83 on: 21 January 2020, 22:07:52 »
or everywhere!
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #84 on: 21 January 2020, 22:12:35 »
The really cool thing is that you can cram 3 tons (equivalent) into a 10-ton APC.  They could be anywhere!  ^-^

APCs like the M113 have always been a favorite for all sorts of command-level platforms, from mobile command centers to ELINT and EW support.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #85 on: 22 January 2020, 07:35:25 »
The first rule of WMD is you NEVER use them "danger close"...  ::)

You say that now, but there is nothing funnier than taking out your own forces with danger-close orbital fire.

I got more of them with that shot than I did of mine, so it was all good.
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #86 on: 22 January 2020, 10:14:38 »
The one time I used a nuke, the primary blast radius ended adjacent to the base I was defending. 8)
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #87 on: 22 January 2020, 10:29:16 »
The one time I used a nuke, the primary blast radius ended adjacent to the base I was defending. 8)

That's the goldilocks zone for WMDs
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #88 on: 22 January 2020, 16:31:18 »
The one time I used a nuke, the primary blast radius ended adjacent to the base I was defending. 8)
That's one FAC who'll never do THAT again...  ^-^

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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #89 on: 22 January 2020, 23:33:18 »
  I've put all of those things on a Mule DS with maximum armor and PPC/Arrow IV batteries. It's a poor man's warship/planetary command post. I have never lost one but my players overestimated its capabilities trying to assault a very heavily defended spaceport...they wound up as POWs, and lost a company's worth of Clan omnis to the Capellans, which made all their contract renegotiations with their unit very entertaining, as they had to repay their employer for their losses and ransoms. BTW, using DSs as attack vessels against ground targets is a silly Wolf's Dragoons stunt that doesn't play out on tabletop well...although the players in my campaign used it to destroy a company of infantry holed up in a small town. The town, along with its 200 or so civilians, and the rebel Lyran infantry, was vaporized under the Mule's drive plumes. Needless to say, their Lyran employers were not pleased.

  A mobile HQ is very useful in a battle, but won't make players any smarter...

wait, these are the SAME Lyrans who invented and put into production the Firedrake Heavy Needler, a weapon with pistol ranges, that is useless against armor and only good for slaughtering civilians and burning their houses down? I mean, we're talking about a weapon developed during the invasion era, with 30% of the Commonwealth occupied by power-armor-wearing lunatics, and the LAAF buys a weapon that is literally 'Villain decay' in a package that requires a tripod or battlesuit to use or move.

which, incidentally, likely requires more expensive cleanup than, say, a flamer or machine-gun, inflicts horrid wounds (only on unarmored flesh) and lights everything else on fire.

« Last Edit: 22 January 2020, 23:47:11 by Cannonshop »
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #90 on: 22 January 2020, 23:46:20 »
The difference is that if you commit a war crime with Firedrakes, you're either working in the Archon's name or have properly greased palms to get the guns - either way, the Commonwealth got its due. Any unmoneyed plebian with pilot training can massacre with DropShip engines - even a foreigner!
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Re: Is a Mobile HQ worth using?
« Reply #91 on: 23 January 2020, 23:16:28 »
Mines, artillery, and landing/taking off dropships are the best weapons for mass destruction w/o using nukes or orbital fire.

As for games with mobile HQ, sometimes the scenario just calls for them. Especially if the target is that juicy C&C vee. Kill the HQ and you likely just killed the regimental commander as well. Though that only works if you are playing a campaign.

 

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