Discussion Sidequest: LAMs

[glitterboy2098]

Given how the Clans historicly see LAMs as an abomination I don't see why.   Heck the one time they let a clan have a LAM.  They were like OH this LAM won an emergency trial by combat.  The whole project is a failure time to cancell it.

that was the jade falcons in the 3060's. at that time the clans still beleived in bidding, Zellbregin and dueling, still believed vehicles and combined arms were dezgra, saw trueborns as the only legit warriors, and used omnimechs almost exclusively for frontline units.

it's 3150. every clan in the ISD has pretty much abandoned bidding, zell, and dueling, makes extensive use of vehicles and combined arms, has absorbed IS born freebirths heavily into their toumans and societies with trueborns losing much of their prestige, and while omnimechs remain the flagship designs, most of their frontline units are predominately non-omnis.

it's been a century, societies and their viewpoints evolve.

and we're talking the Hells Horses and Snow Ravens here. they were never as hidebound as the Jade Falcons were about the lines between mech and non-mech units, or about avoiding combined arms. in the Snow Raven's case they've been spending most of that century as part of and societally blending with the Outworlds Alliance, which has reduced their adherence to 'traditional clan values' even more than most.

That said, I'd like to see plastic miniatures of at least the existing non-experimental LAMs (Stinger Mk I and II, Wasp Mk I and II, Phoenix Hawk Mk I and II, and Screamer). One of the awesome surprises that I got to participate in was including the LAMs in Tech Readout 3085. It was amazing seeing the response to us bringing back a long-neglected bit of the universe. Randall, Joel, and I did a great job on giving LAMs an updated history, tying them into the universe as a whole and even explaining a few other oddities (like the Valkyrie's origin and why the SLDF never put it into production). So yeah, I want to see them for selfish and prideful reasons.

if the Mk1's were left as IWM only i wouldn't mind much, though i hate the high price. but i would love for plastic LAM's in general. especially since the Alpha Strike rules for them end up being a lot easier to run, while still capturing the general feel of how they are supposed to operate in the fluff.

[MarauderCH IIC]

What rulebook are LAMs covered in?

[glitterboy2098]

What rulebook are LAMs covered in?

Record Sheets 3085 Upgrade has the initial updated rules, while Interstellar Operations: Era Specific Rules has the most up to date version.

the Alpha Strike Companion had the alpha strike rules for them. (i don;t know if those made it into the Alpha Strike Commander's edition)

[Empyrus]

(i don;t know if those made it into the Alpha Strike Commander's edition)

ASCE page 177, under Optional Unit Types.

[Sartris]

The most current rules are in IO: Alternate Eras, no?

[Giovanni Blasini]

The most current rules are in IO: Alternate Eras, no?

Yes, I believe so.

[Dapper Apples]

You also need TacOps: Advanced Rules, as AirMechs use the "turn modes" rules even if you aren't using them for other unit types.

[SCC]

OK, so HG has very little to do with LAMs being gone. I'd say the process began when they weren't included in in 1990's TRO: 3050, by '94 the rules weren't being published in mainline rule books, and the lawsuit wasn't until '96.

The real problem with them is that the original rules where not very balanced and LAM fans resist changes, especially ones that balance them, look at how unpopular the current rules are with some of them.

Making them Special Forces only machines wouldn't work without real force building rules, like restricting what other units you can take, and requiring veteran pilots at a minimum.

As for plastic, LAMs in 'Mech mode now look identical to their non-LAM version, use that mini.

[ColBosch]

We really need to stop talking about Harmony Gold. We're well past the Unseen, even though they never actually had the rights to those designs. BattleTech is so much better than copying the Macross mecha.

[RifleMech]

After catching up. UrbanMech LAMs...YAY!!!!!! 

I hope stats, fluff and art, will be available for them and other LAMs. We do need new Mk2 LAM art and art and stats for the Clan Jade Falcon's LAMs. And it would be great if the UrbieLAM was made canon. Since we do have a Third Star League now, there's no reason the PDF, and the UrbieLAM couldn't be made canon.

I've never agreed with the "LAMs don't fit Battletech" argument. LAMs fit. The reason for their creation makes sense and is as valid as wanting Fighters to have VTOL and tanks to hover. If those things fit so do LAMs. That doesn't mean all mechs have to be LAMs but they do fit. For those that don't like LAMs, don't say they don't fit. Just don't use them. That simple.

LAMs were never Lostech. Not in the way that Gauss Rifles, XL Engines, and other SLDF Tech was. LAMs are more unused and forgotten tech. All the information is there to build LAMs. It's just no one uses them so knowledge about the how to is forgotten.

I am hoping that the use of QuadVees will help bring back LAMs. Not just by the IS but by the Clans also. I think the whole Clans hate LAMs thing has been overblown. The Nova Cats might have hated LAMs. Attitudes among other Clans varied. The Jade Falcons experimented with LAMs. Clan Wolf equipped Wolf's Dragoons with several LAMs and at least one of their LAM pilots was a Goliath Scorpion. So, I can see the Ravens building their own LAMs. I can see the Hell's Horses building them too.

I don't think LAMs should have to wait for Aerospace to be fixed. AirMech and BattleMech modes are used on the ground map. I do think their rules could be better, and we do need rules for AirMechs in space, but they're more workable than Aerospace Rules. A couple of them are pure nerfs and we ignored them but the rest are okay. Although, some of the tech restrictions do get very shaky with the presence of QuadVees.

I don't think having LAMs as Special Forces only would work even with force building rules. Units don't always stay what they were designed for. War pushes them into other things. Plus there's always going to be units, like mercenaries, that don't fit a mold.

[tassa_kay]

Well said, sir. I couldn't agree more.

[ActionButler]

I must admit, I’m always more than a little fascinated by the depth and breadth of LAM opinions. As a mod, these threads are often a little touch-and-go because so many people have so many very passionate opinions (which is great until people start arguing…), but as a fan of the game, it’s pretty fun to see what other people would add if given the magic dev wand.

For my two cents, while I am passionately opposed to the idea of the classic, triple-changer LAM, I’m 100% down with airmech mode as a standalone entity. That makes perfect sense, IMO. Even before the Falcons started putting partial wings on every flat surface, a mech that moves like a VTOL has a metric ton of obvious potential. That’s almost exactly how I would rewrite the rules, too. It can fight on (or maybe just near?) the ground like a mech, but move around the board like a traditional VTOL.

The scenarios practically write themselves, at that point. Airmech commandos strike the undefended side of an island facility while the main force is distracted by a mass of troops, or they land on the skin of a warship during an in-system burn, or they harass supply lines while waiting on off-planet support.

I can absolutely get behind all of that and it plays right into the hands of the traditional “mechs are king of the battlefield” line. Just keep it in one shape. It doesn’t have to be a Veritech to add value to the game.

[General308]

I must admit, I’m always more than a little fascinated by the depth and breadth of LAM opinions. As a mod, these threads are often a little touch-and-go because so many people have so many very passionate opinions (which is great until people start arguing…), but as a fan of the game, it’s pretty fun to see what other people would add if given the magic dev wand.

For my two cents, while I am passionately opposed to the idea of the classic, triple-changer LAM, I’m 100% down with airmech mode as a standalone entity. That makes perfect sense, IMO. Even before the Falcons started putting partial wings on every flat surface, a mech that moves like a VTOL has a metric ton of obvious potential. That’s almost exactly how I would rewrite the rules, too. It can fight on (or maybe just near?) the ground like a mech, but move around the board like a traditional VTOL.

The scenarios practically write themselves, at that point. Airmech commandos strike the undefended side of an island facility while the main force is distracted by a mass of troops, or they land on the skin of a warship during an in-system burn, or they harass supply lines while waiting on off-planet support.

I can absolutely get behind all of that and it plays right into the hands of the traditional “mechs are king of the battlefield” line. Just keep it in one shape. It doesn’t have to be a Veritech to add value to the game.

Tripple Changer?  As long as it goes from mech to Space Shuttle to train I am down with it.   

[Wolf72]

Tripple Changer?  As long as it goes from mech to Space Shuttle to train I am down with it.   

He clearly used VToL, which means it has to go to Chopper, weirdo car, and Mech!

I know it's a gag unit, but I'll be getting one.  Wait, will it have an AS card and pilot card with it? ... that would be great!

I'd want an action figure version, about the size of the Transformers. 5-6" or so?

[ActionButler]

Tripple Changer?  As long as it goes from mech to Space Shuttle to train I am down with it.   

Jettison some weight, or we’ll never make it to New Avalon.

[Sartris]

I'd want an action figure version, about the size of the Transformers. 5-6" or so?

AS and pilot cards have been standard in all force packs so far. Baring that, anything with classic stats can be converted

[Wolf72]

It's like an alien transport gate opened between the BTU and the Nebula California.

[Sartris]

NONE ONE SHALL PASS

[General308]

One problem I am going to point out about the it is "Non Canon and a Joke"   The average player doesn't keep up with the forums or other social media well.  See how often people ask if the current kickstarter is shipped or think it is late for prime examples.  People are going to buy this and think it is Canon and expect it to be such.    Just seems like more of a problem than it being canon to me. 

Of Course knowning the Urbie is not going to be able to produce enough fluff to break actually make it to space in Fighter mode is kind of the part that makes me laugh

[ColBosch]

One problem I am going to point out about the it is "Non Canon and a Joke"   The average player doesn't keep up with the forums or other social media well.  See how often people ask if the current kickstarter is shipped or think it is late for prime examples.  People are going to buy this and think it is Canon and expect it to be such.    Just seems like more of a problem than it being canon to me. 

Of Course knowning the Urbie is not going to be able to produce enough fluff to break actually make it to space in Fighter mode is kind of the part that makes me laugh

Yeah, that is one of my concerns. I once was the kid who bought something that I didn't know I couldn't use. I'd like to avoid that disappointment in others, since it can turn a new player away. Now someone did say that could be an online exclusive, which would change things.

[General308]

Yeah, that is one of my concerns. I once was the kid who bought something that I didn't know I couldn't use. I'd like to avoid that disappointment in others, since it can turn a new player away. Now someone did say that could be an online exclusive, which would change things.

I don't know that that changes things etiher.  People buy stuff online that don't pay attention either.  Even if CGL puts it in the description how many people are actually going to read that.  Anyways it is just food for thought.   Hopefully something CGL works hard to prevent from happening.   We will see.

[Lorcan Nagle]

Does it really matter that much?  Use it in your home games, it's not like LAMs will ever be common in organised play

[General308]

Does it really matter that much?  Use it in your home games, it's not like LAMs will ever be common in organised play

6 years ago I would have said no.  With the new influx of players that have trouble getting a grip on things I am not so sure that that is still the case.  Remember we live in a world were we have a large number of people who thing the Merc kickstarter is late even though it has never been scheduled before June of this year.

[Pat Payne]

For me there's two questions:

1) LAMs in the game at all -- I am a fan of Macross, but I know that as the line developed, Battletech became less and less "Macross-y". Valkyries can do all sorts of things that except in the earliest novels or by the elite of the elite Mechwarriors just can't be done in a BattleMech (a Wasp is probably not going to do that drop, roll and fire that is shown in Macross' opening titles, for instance). A LAM does kind of go against that paradigm, not to mention that the rules have been all over the place, pingponging between way overpowered to over-nerfed. On the other hand, they are so ingrained into the lore that it would take a bit of doing (or horrible dictu! a reboot) to finally excise -- I mean just off the top of my head, they'd have to change Clay Moretti (Sorenson's Sabres), Jeremiah and Jason Youngblood (Crescent Hawks) and much of the CAAN formations of the old SLDF, as well as the Manei Domini and their Yuurei, Pwwka and Waneta LAMs.
2) LAM minis: It really wouldn't hurt my head if we don't get tri-modal mini packs for LAMs. They to my mind would be about the same expense for one unit as a whole lance pack, would be a headache to store in formations (I pack my 'mechs by company in Feldherr bags, so having to pack three of the same 'mech leaves less room for its lancemates), juggling three minis on the tabletop would be a hassle when changing modes for something that is essentially cosmetic and can be easily communicated with dice or tokens.

[General308]

For me there's two questions:

1) LAMs in the game at all -- I am a fan of Macross, but I know that as the line developed, Battletech became less and less "Macross-y". Valkyries can do all sorts of things that except in the earliest novels or by the elite of the elite Mechwarriors just can't be done in a BattleMech (a Wasp is probably not going to do that drop, roll and fire that is shown in Macross' opening titles, for instance). A LAM does kind of go against that paradigm, not to mention that the rules have been all over the place, pingponging between way overpowered to over-nerfed. On the other hand, they are so ingrained into the lore that it would take a bit of doing (or horrible dictu! a reboot) to finally excise -- I mean just off the top of my head, they'd have to change Clay Moretti (Sorenson's Sabres), Jeremiah and Jason Youngblood (Crescent Hawks) and much of the CAAN formations of the old SLDF, as well as the Manei Domini and their Yuurei, Pwwka and Waneta LAMs.
2) LAM minis: It really wouldn't hurt my head if we don't get tri-modal mini packs for LAMs. They to my mind would be about the same expense for one unit as a whole lance pack, would be a headache to store in formations (I pack my 'mechs by company in Feldherr bags, so having to pack three of the same 'mech leaves less room for its lancemates), juggling three minis on the tabletop would be a hassle when changing modes for something that is essentially cosmetic and can be easily communicated with dice or tokens.

So as tto getting minis.  I mean IWM sells the LAMS.  You can get them if you want them.

[Pat Payne]

So as tto getting minis.  I mean IWM sells the LAMS.  You can get them if you want them.

Please don't mistake my "it wouldn't hurt my head if they didn't" for a "they shouldn't and I'll whine if they do"  If they decide to make 'em in the future, more power to 'em! I didn't even say I wouldn't buy at least one just to paint it, just that as a tabletop thing, the tri-mode minis might be a solution desperately in search of a problem.

[Sartris]

It should be noted that the IWM LAMs are on the more challenging side of things

[ColBosch]

It should be noted that the IWM LAMs are on the more challenging side of things

Yeah, it's why I never bought them. I'm too old and fat-fingered to assemble fiddly little bits with superglue.

[General308]

It should be noted that the IWM LAMs are on the more challenging side of things

They are they were built in the period of time were it felt like IWM wanted to see how many peices they could make each model.

[Giovanni Blasini]

It should be noted that the IWM LAMs are on the more challenging side of things

I find that to be the case for most of IWM's miniatures.  The Phoenix Era ones were especially bad.  That said, I've only built one IWM LAM mini, the Shadow Hawk LAM, and I don't recall the 'Mech mode being quite as awful to put together.

Which reminds me...quite often it seems like the biggest objection to LAMs is AirMech mode.  Personally, I thought that got pretty reasonably tamed by switching them to WiGE movement, and seriously constrained by the need to use turn modes, but AirMechs seem to still be controversial on a conceptional level.

So...what if there wasn't an AirMech mode?  Make all LAMs bimodal, fix the conversion gear at 10% of mass so the old LAM designs are still legal (though, oh no, you'd need to figure out what to do with the extra mass on the SHD LAMs, or just make it "Prototype LAM Conversion" or something).  Let LAMs get the equivalent of the extra jump MP in 'Mech mode that partial wings would give them, and otherwise keep the rules basically the same?