Author Topic: How to Use My Stuff  (Read 2426 times)

Crackerb0x

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How to Use My Stuff
« on: 25 June 2018, 12:13:37 »
Hi guys, I've been noticing in myore recent games that I have a problem with identifying weaknesses in my lists and wanted to bring one to you. I haven't used some of these units (Protomechs specifically) before, but really wanted to build a Jade Falcon 10k BV2.0 list to my next 10k battle game. Without further ado:

Hellbringer B
Summoner Prime
Great Wyrm
Fire Falcon E
Fire Falcon E
Roc Protomech point
Elemental (SL) point
Elemental (SL) point
Ironhold point
Karnov Transport

My idea is to use the Karnov to claim important terrain early with the Ironhold BA and load up my Elementals on the Fire Falcons to try and flank and harass and go for ankles when possible.

Meanwhile my Hellbringer, Wyrm, and Summoner are to apply long range pressure while the Rocs focus targets and cause general mayhem.

 I don't know what the terrain will be like, but assume it will be rolling hills with small forests and rivers, like the intro box maps.

Anything stick out that would really ruin my day? Thanks in advance

Colt Ward

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #1 on: 25 June 2018, 16:22:44 »
Anything stick out that would really ruin my day? Thanks in advance

Someone shooting at the Hellbringer.

But seriously . . .

Rocs are like Elementals, they are the standard for Protos.  I would honestly say they should be escorting your Hellbringer, to keep any flankers from getting at the weak rear armor . . . the Great Wyrm is a neat looking design, but will you have the room to take advantage of its UAC/2 range?

I think it would help if you let us know what you expected to face.
Colt Ward
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Crackerb0x

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #2 on: 25 June 2018, 16:50:24 »
That's a good point. I expect to face only BattleMechs, generally Clan Wolf heavies and mediums, very unlikely they'll use any Inner Sphere. My opponent isn't comfortable with combined arms play, but loves generalist fast cavalry like the Timber Wolf and Storm Crows. It's pretty nebulous, to be completely honest.

truetanker

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #3 on: 25 June 2018, 18:41:01 »
Swap the Karnov for an Anhur BA, allows you to transport up to 10 BA.

Also have thought of just using a Nova with 3 Mecha, 2 Vees 20 BA and 1 Infanty with the single Proto Point?

I've used the Mechanized Infantry to good effect!
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Mechanized_Infantry

TT
« Last Edit: 25 June 2018, 18:47:06 by truetanker »
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Firesprocket

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #4 on: 26 June 2018, 22:58:42 »
I'd say with what you have listed for options there are room for improvement.  Here the flaws as I see it with what you want to use:

Hellbringer B- main ranged weapon, Gauss rifle only has 1 ton of ammo.  If you don't play long games this probably won't be an issue.
Summoner Prime- LB only has one ton of ammo.  Not insurmountable, but your choice for LB-X ammo leaves no room for error.
Great Wyrm- It isn't the first mech I'd choose.  It's certainly low BV for a Clan mech.  If you have to take one though I'd go for the Great Wyrm 2 which has a slight decrease in range, but has a HAG-20 which is likely to do more damage at long range.  The increase is marginal though it will get you better armor.
Fire Falcon E x 2- This particular Fire Falcon has up side on damage, but the weapon is in the torso.  That means if that you intend to use them to carry your battle armor, your mech won't be able to fire until it drops the elementals.  I'd consider looking at replacing one or both with a different variant.  A prime or an H.  Both configurations have more weapons mounted in their arms.

Roc Protomech point- Rocs are probably one of the best Protomechs out there.  If you buy a point of them and start upping their skill though you are going to be up in the cost range of a low end Clan assault. Because the they are separate units that gives you numbers flexibility.

Elemental (SL) point x 2- getting them in position for use is key.  Assuming that is done well use them for area of control and if necessary spotters for IDF.

Ironhold point- same deal with Elementals.  I will 2nd the Anhur over the Karnov.  It has a little more bite than the Karnov once it has dropped its cargo.

Crackerb0x

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #5 on: 27 June 2018, 12:19:56 »
I'd say with what you have listed for options there are room for improvement.  Here the flaws as I see it with what you want to use:

Hellbringer B- main ranged weapon, Gauss rifle only has 1 ton of ammo.  If you don't play long games this probably won't be an issue.
Summoner Prime- LB only has one ton of ammo.  Not insurmountable, but your choice for LB-X ammo leaves no room for error.
Great Wyrm- It isn't the first mech I'd choose.  It's certainly low BV for a Clan mech.  If you have to take one though I'd go for the Great Wyrm 2 which has a slight decrease in range, but has a HAG-20 which is likely to do more damage at long range.  The increase is marginal though it will get you better armor.
Fire Falcon E x 2- This particular Fire Falcon has up side on damage, but the weapon is in the torso.  That means if that you intend to use them to carry your battle armor, your mech won't be able to fire until it drops the elementals.  I'd consider looking at replacing one or both with a different variant.  A prime or an H.  Both configurations have more weapons mounted in their arms.

Roc Protomech point- Rocs are probably one of the best Protomechs out there.  If you buy a point of them and start upping their skill though you are going to be up in the cost range of a low end Clan assault. Because the they are separate units that gives you numbers flexibility.

Elemental (SL) point x 2- getting them in position for use is key.  Assuming that is done well use them for area of control and if necessary spotters for IDF.

Ironhold point- same deal with Elementals.  I will 2nd the Anhur over the Karnov.  It has a little more bite than the Karnov once it has dropped its cargo.

About the Hellbringer: totally legit. However, long games don't tend to be a problem for me amdy opponent. Not worried about running dry. Same idea with the Summoner. Granted I don't have the flexibility of the LBX to play with, but I'm partial to cluster rounds anyway.

About the Great Wyrm: Fair enough. I chose it because I want to try it and that's pretty much it. I've had the miniature for nigh on a decade now and want to give it some table love.

About the Roc point: They look good and I wanted to try protos for the first time. Responses about that choice have been positive and it's nice to feel validated.

About the Karnov: since this is for a BV game, I'm really adverse to spending 5 times the points on the Anhur. For being able just to drop things and move on, I feel like the Karnov gets the job done.

About the Fire Falcons: I may just drop them completely. I recently had to go over the list again and found out I only have 1 point of Elementals anyway. I may replace them with something better or use those points to swap the Summoner for a Warhawk or something.

Colt Ward

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #6 on: 27 June 2018, 13:40:20 »
Keep the Falcon flavor, go Night Gyr.  Even IF you had another point, the Hellbringer can at least move them closer . . . though if I was you I would consider going AP Gauss rather than Smalls.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Crackerb0x

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #7 on: 28 June 2018, 07:38:46 »
I definitely was eyeing the Night Gyr in my initial list, but was also trying to keep the mech's all moving the same pace. I'll play around with the numbers and see what I can do with AP Gauss Elementals and maybe the Gyr.


Crackerb0x

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #8 on: 29 June 2018, 15:07:35 »
Some updates: we've settled on a coastal plains with some light woods. Big water feature on the board that cuts it in half short ways with a 1 hexwode River and a couple patches of light woods about 6-10 hexes apart.

I've redone my force with some of the feedback given here and now have the following:

Roc Protomech Point (5)   Standard
Summoner   Prime
Nova Cat   B
Mist Lynx   B
Fire Falcon   Prime
Ironhold Point (5)   Standard
Elemental Point (5)   AP Gauss
Elemental Point (5)   AP Gauss
Karnov   Standard

What should I expect out of Protomechs? I've never played with them before. Should I drop off the Elementals behind the enemy and harass them or in front to bog them down? Or at least, what do y'all think.
« Last Edit: 29 June 2018, 15:15:57 by Crackerb0x »

Colt Ward

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #9 on: 29 June 2018, 15:13:32 »
What sort of mechs does he usually bring?  What are you expecting to face?
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Fallen_Raven

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #10 on: 29 June 2018, 15:31:50 »
What should I expect out of Protomechs?

Rocs are a lot like having IS light'mechs. You focus on manuver to minimize damage, and you try to hit rear armor. They have impressive armor for Protomechs, but the big guns still hurt bad. Treat them like you would a Stinger and you should be fine.

As a tactical note, you move and shoot as a point. That doesn't mean you have to stay next to each other, so its possible to wrap around a 'mech and limit its movement!
Subtlety is for those who lack a bigger gun.

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Crackerb0x

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #11 on: 29 June 2018, 15:37:20 »
What sort of mechs does he usually bring?  What are you expecting to face?

If I don't see a Timber Wolf, I'll see a Dire Wolf. While I'm doing a JF theme, they're taking Wolf Mechs. I don't honestly know what that will entail, but I expect either heavy cavalry or really big guns.

As a tactical note, you move and shoot as a point. That doesn't mean you have to stay next to each other, so its possible to wrap around a 'mech and limit its movement!

I thought of that while looking over proto rules. Thanks, Raven!

Paul

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #12 on: 06 July 2018, 20:30:05 »
Some updates: we've settled on a coastal plains with some light woods. Big water feature on the board that cuts it in half short ways with a 1 hexwode River and a couple patches of light woods about 6-10 hexes apart.

Your high mobility and jump capability will be an asset if you time things correctly.


Quote
Roc Protomech Point (5)   Standard
Summoner   Prime
Nova Cat   B
Mist Lynx   B
Fire Falcon   Prime
Ironhold Point (5)   Standard
Elemental Point (5)   AP Gauss
Elemental Point (5)   AP Gauss
Karnov   Standard

Solid unit.

Given the maps, and assuming your prediction of your enemy is correct:
1. Use your mobility to generate defensive movement modifiers on your 'Mechs (and any BA they carry); this should provoke your enemy in to crossing the river at some point. Keep the ProtoMechs largely out of the fight here. (High mobility, blocking terrain, and easier targets should help)
2. The turn he does, advance forward; he'll have at least 1 turn where his Mechs will be slowed by the water, and you must take advantage.
3. As a part of this forward surge, deploy all your Battle Armor (in woods, if possible). The idea here is to hem the enemy *against* the river, reducing his mobility options while yours are unrestrained.
This can be done by having BA on his flanks while you encroach on the front, or by having the BA in a single line in front of him, forcing him to turn hard left or hard right.
4. At this stage, you should be doing heavy damage, and should have a firepower advantage. Press this by denying paths of movement with the BA, use your fast units to pick them up and drop them off frequently.
5. That river is a huge advantage if your enemy lacks JJs (kill the few JJ Mechs he has first, if able). Don't be afraid of jumping *over* the river to re-assert it as a problem to your enemy.


Quote
What should I expect out of Protomechs?

There are two key things to make use of in BT:
A. Make it hard for an enemy to kill your units; if something got hit turn 3, make it a very difficult target turn 4. This makes it likely the enemy has to keep attacking fresh army for many turns.
B. If the enemy has multiple targets, he has a major incentive to focus on the one with the lowest defensive modifiers (terrain, defensive movement). So if that Nova Cat jumped 2 hexes in to Light Woods, it's making a +2 out of those two events. If all the BA, Mechs and Protos around it make a 3 or better, they may not get shot.

Protos MUST be deployed while your enemy has cause to shoot your Mechs. if you deploy them on their own, they die. Rapidly.
They flourish in situations where your enemy has to decide between that Summoner, or that Roc. Or that ironhold point.
So, timing will be absolutely KEY for you. Do not expose your fragile forces until you have cause, and then expose the enemy to all your troops.

ProtoMechs are good for frustrating enemy movement, and for occupying their hexes so they can't shoot you with the Mech whose hex you're in. (Which disrupts the ability to focus fire). Also, the next turn, you can advance and be behind them, forcing the Wolf Mechs to choose whether to accept rear shots from the Rocs, or turn and get shot by a Nova Cat or Summoner instead.
Always keep them compact. Always use your ability to stack 2 to a hex, unless you're using them to disrupt enemy movement. Then it's OK to do 1 per hex. Don't forget that you can have a protoMech in the same hex a *friendly* Mech or BA unit.
Stacking lots of units in the same few hexes allways you to concentrate a lot of firepower in the same area.

NOTE: your enemy's path to success is to not play your game. So, he's got a major incentive to hang back and just shell you at range, as he almost certainly outguns you that way. Deny shots, and wait.
Unless you have routes to advance the BA without them getting shot (generally requires hills or dense forests, which you seem to lack), you can't really force the issue.
But whether he's playing your game or whether he forced you to advance towards him, make sure you drop the BA and bring the Protos in all in the same turn. Don't grant him free shots. And don't let him shoot Mech armor without it allowing you to advance your BA and Protos as well.

The solution is just ignore Paul.

Colt Ward

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #13 on: 06 July 2018, 21:09:43 »
Just to be clear, BA can only deter a mech moving through certain hexes- they can no longer physically stop a mech's movement through that hex.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Paul

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Re: How to Use My Stuff
« Reply #14 on: 06 July 2018, 21:30:06 »
Just to be clear, BA can only deter a mech moving through certain hexes- they can no longer physically stop a mech's movement through that hex.

Yeah, the deterrence I have in mind is more along the line of "I don't want to go there, because there'll be a ton of BA at range 2 or so"

The solution is just ignore Paul.

 

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