Author Topic: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder  (Read 24959 times)

Manchu

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Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« on: 03 January 2021, 10:21:26 »
Now that WHOEVER is the ilClan (a topic, per mod instruction, not to be discussed outside of this thread for the time being), what does the future hold for the arguable “true ilClan,” namely Star Adder?

On one hand, CSA certainly won’t acknowledge any grandiose claim of the abjured. On the other hand, such a claim can hardly be ignored altogether. As the originator of the Bastion-Aggressor dynamic that replaced the Crusader-Warden politics of the early- to mid-31st century, CSA seems uniquely positioned for destabilization by news of the ilClan claim.

Has enough time passed for those hot-blooded young Aggressors of the 3090s to have risen to places of prominence as decision makers? Will the pent-up Crusader ambitions of Cassius’s era finally burst into a neo-Crusader fervor? Will the Adders engineer a do-over invasion under a pragmatic lessons-learned/the-abjured-should have-listened-to-us rubric?

Or is CSA doomed to narrative irrelevance as a staunch isolationist power?
« Last Edit: 03 January 2021, 10:30:04 by Manchu »

Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #1 on: 03 January 2021, 10:47:17 »
What if the Home Clans say:"There is an ilClan now? So what, we are not interested. Good riddance"?
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Manchu

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #2 on: 03 January 2021, 10:55:41 »
That is the most likely Bastion response, right? “What do we care what those IS creeps do or say?”

There are two issues with that. First, from an out-of-setting perspective, that answer means CSA and the other Homeworld Clans have nothing to do in the ilClan era and the chances of CGL committing resources to developing the Homeworlds as a parallel franchise are slim-to-none; i.e., the Homeworld Clans become irrelevant for at least an entire era of the game. Second, from an in-universe perspective, the Bastion position was not unchallenged in Homeworld politics, even in 3090. CSA was already raiding the Escorpion Imperio and the other Homeworld clans were embedding Watch ops against it. This Aggressor attitude toward the EI is just a hop-skip-and-a-jump from doing much the same against other abjured clans similarly rebranded as IS states, such as the Raven Alliance, the Ghost Bear Dominion, and the Wolf Empire.

Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #3 on: 03 January 2021, 11:00:48 »
Well I do not think so.
Given the ego of the new Star League (and its new boss), all Clans must recognize the ilClan. If not they are traitors and must be punished.
That would mean an military expedition to the Homeworlds, a deep space war.

This war could be the limit of the new Star League, they might not be able to defeat the Home Clans.
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Manchu

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #4 on: 03 January 2021, 11:23:34 »
You’re right to suggest that certain egos demand nothing less than total submission. But news will reach the Homeworlds about this claim before, probably long before, the supposed ilClan can afford to turn its attention beyond the Inner Sphere. And in the gap between, the Aggressors, and especially the CSA Aggressors, will be faced with the ultimate manifestation of their contempt for the tainted abjured clans and the Spheroid pretensions that tainted them.

Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #5 on: 03 January 2021, 11:29:33 »
The idea that a mighty Homeclan armada led by 4 Leviathan Prime battleships arrives in Terra system is appealing, is not it?
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Manchu

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #6 on: 03 January 2021, 11:30:27 »
At this point, almost nothing could be more appealing.

CJC070

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #7 on: 03 January 2021, 13:37:19 »
No offence to those that want a Homeworld vs Inner Sphere clash but I hope they stay away.  Especially since the Scorpion Empire has hardly heard a peep from them in over 60 years, (3090-3150 if I’m wrong please tell me) it stands to reason they are facing challenges rebuilding.
It also creates an opportunity just having the Scorpions and Homeworld during it out with little to know IS supervision.  Yes the Scorpions have been sited in the IS but so far we have only heard about Seekers.  Let the Homeworlds go and create their own idealistic Clan Society and let the Inner Sphere deal with their own mess.

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #8 on: 03 January 2021, 13:38:56 »
At this point, almost nothing could be more appealing.

 What if it was led by Kreese Andrew with direct orders to sweep the ilclans leg and put em in a body bag!!
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Manchu

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #9 on: 03 January 2021, 14:11:19 »
Let the Homeworlds go and create their own idealistic Clan Society and let the Inner Sphere deal with their own mess.
This amounts to the HWCs becoming irrelevant to BT. Not really acceptable to HWC fans.

The HWCs harassed the EI with (at least) Watch ops throughout its military build-up leading to its conquest of the Hanseatic League in 3140, at which point the newly-minted Scorpion Empire, despite having suffered significant losses in that campaign, had made sufficient gains to project threat against the HWCs. The HWCs, and especially CSA, would certainly (a) know about this and (b) not be content to let it stand.

So if nothing else, the Scorpion Empire and HWCs will almost certainly go to war during the ilClan era, which itself will be further complicated by the former possibly acknowledging the ilClan (and, if so, likely claiming it as an at least theoretical ally) while the latter, whether Bastion or Aggressor, would view that connection with intense hatred.
« Last Edit: 04 January 2021, 03:06:37 by Manchu »

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #10 on: 03 January 2021, 16:41:02 »
I am hoping and guessing that the Scorpion Empire is going to be the tie in to how the Star League and the Homeworlds clans run into each other.

Manchu

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #11 on: 04 January 2021, 02:04:43 »
That is more a question for the Scorpion Empire and the ilClan than for CSA and the other HWCs. The main issue is, will the ilClan call for the consolidation of all the abjured (and perhaps also the HWCs) into itself? (At the very least, in the same way that the Camerons called for the consolidation of all the Spheroid and Peripheral states into the Star League.) And, if so, how will the abjured react? If the Scorpion Empire even theoretically aligns itself as part of the ilClan then the HWCs will be drawn into the prospect of facing an ilClan invasion or preempting such with its own invasion. This line of reasoning is complicated by the fact that CGS is not a member of the Council of Six so how the ilClan views the Scorpion Empire is (to my knowledge) just as ambiguous as how it views the HWCs.

From CSA’s POV, war with the Scorpion Empire is essentially inevitable, regardless of the latter’s relations with the ilClan. The Aggressors are obviously chomping at the bit for war. But considering the potential threat projection of the Scorpion Empire by 3140, even the staunchest Bastion supporters will realize that (a) peace with the Scorpion Empire is impossible considering the WoR ideology of IS taint and, given that, (b) there is no possibility of maintaining Homeworlds isolationism without at least permanently crippling the Scorpion Empire.

Thanks to developments in Bastion-Aggressor politics since 3090, it isn’t clear whether the HWCs would wage unrestrained warfare against the Scorpion Empire or elect to fight them according to Clan custom. What I mean here is, what if the ilClan claim triggers another major reconfiguration of HWC politics? Now, this is a huge, open-ended question, but all I mean in this specific context is, if some significant portion of CGS rejects the ilClan claim, there might be room for a partial reconciliation between the HWCs and CGS, as per Crichell repurposing the Trial of Annihilation against Clan Wolf in the wake of the Great Refusal into a Trial of Absorption. From CSA’s traditionally pragmatic POV, if an Annihilation can be thus repurposed then why not an Abjuration?

At this point, it bears keeping in mind the circumstances of CGS’s abjuration. The key proponents were CCC and staunch Bastionists in the other HWCs. As to CCC, there are two important elements: (a) the WoR created a rift between them and CSA and (b) CCC was never fully committed to Bastion politics. As to Bastionists generally, it may be the case that by the 3140-50s, the Aggressors have gained more power and prestige than they had during the 3090s. Furthermore, even despite the consolidation of Bastion leadership at that time, the HWCs did not ruthlessly pursue the Trial of Abjuration against CGS, allowing them on the whole to successfully emigrate to the Periphery. Even at the height of their power, in the wake of the violence of the WoR, the Bastion leadership was not all that secure.

Partially for that reason, I think it is likely that Bastion politics are on the wane in the early 3150s among the HWCs. But, more importantly, as sketched out above, the astropolitical realities of 3140 are reducing the Bastion position to irrelevance. Specifically, the threat of the Scorpion Empire and, more generally, the implications of the ilClan claim mean that even if one wanted to maintain isolationism, some kind of intervention becomes necessary. In other words, the Bastion-Aggressor dichotomy dissolves in favor of the Aggressors. As I said, given the choice of waiting to be attacked by the Scorpion Empire and/or the IS ilClan or seizing the initiative, all true Clansmen must favor the latter.

So what paradigm replaces Bastion-Aggressor? My proposal, given CSA’s dominance among the HWCs, is a Neo-Crusader position drawing on the theories and policies of Cassius N’Buta, a staunch Crusader who argued that only the unified and coordinated might of all the Clans could successfully prosecute Operation REVIVAL. The other Crusaders, lusting after glory for their individual Clans, dismissed his views. On the other side of the Great Refusal and the WoR, CSA Aggressors would likely strongly argue that Cassius had been right all along and that his rivals had only revealed their propensity for taint in opposing him.

But more profoundly, what do Cassius’s ideas really amount to other than the notion that the ilClan is not merely a first-among-equals honorific to be seized by an individual Clan but rather the notion of the Clans working closely together as a single force (i.e., the ilClan) as opposed to more-or-less aligned albeit competitive factions. This is in fact now the same question facing the abjured Clans during the ilClan era and I think their claim to have established the true ilClan by conquest of Terra would perforce trigger this new political paradigm in the Homeworlds, given that from the HWCs’ POV, the abjured have no right to make such a claim.

Within the HWCs, I think there would be broad agreement that the remaining “true Clans” should all cooperate closely to seize the initiative against the Inner Sphere. But there would remain the question of how they should coordinate. Who should be in charge and on what basis? Some would argue that the Grand Council should remain the central organ of Clan politics with the Khan of any “true Clan” able to serve as ilKhan. Others would argue that this structure was not the Founder’s original intent and had only been a practical and temporary compromise in the wake of his sudden death, which compromise unfortunately hardened over time into a permanent institution thanks to the incessant interfactional squabbling among the Clans afterwards. These “ilKhanists” would argue that the failure to centralize authority in one person, as during the Golden Century, was responsible for all the failures of the Political Century onward. Their rivals, the “Conciliarists,” would argue such glory-seeking is exactly the problem that led to those failures.

Now, note that the concept of taint would subtly shift over time, evolving from the WoR-era notion of corrupting contact with the Inner Sphere to a more flexible and insidious notion of corruption that began to set in among the Clans even before Operation REVIVAL, as far back as the aftermath of the Founder’s death. This is the political and philosophical matrix through which an attack against the Scorpion Empire would develop. The Old Guard leadership among the HWCs would favor unrestricted warfare against the Scorpion Empire as just another tainted IS state. The younger Ristars would favor the idea that some elements of CGS remained untainted and thus could be rehabilitated by a Trial of Absorption, which in turn (some would further argue) could lead to their rebirth as a new Clan as per the Clan Jade Wolf scenario (“Clan Star Scorpion”?).

There are at least three other important factors, but I will refrain from discussing them here until the moderators give us clearance to talk about Hour of the Wolf outside of the General Discussion board thread.
« Last Edit: 04 January 2021, 02:06:52 by Manchu »

Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #12 on: 04 January 2021, 04:04:07 »
IMHO it might be interesting to know, when Stone might have informed the Home Clans. (If he really did)

Finally shortly before the invasion of Terra begun?
Or earlier?


Nevertheless, the formation of an ilClan is goig to send ripples of new wars/conflicts through the universe of man.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #13 on: 04 January 2021, 08:49:28 »
Do the Homeworld Clans even keep tabs on the IS? From what I remember is that the Star Adders patrol the fringes of Clan space to make sure none of them ever contact the IS again (I think it was past the planet Ghent or so). So the only way to get news about it would be either by collecting information from the Scorpion empire or by sending out scouts (in this way "It's honorable to be tainted for the motherland!") to get any news. The old clans had their amateurish Intelser agency but I somehow can't picture this (with the conlcusion of WoR at least). I am still waiting for a "Clan Wolverine is back bitches and it has WoB in tow!" scenario.

Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #14 on: 04 January 2021, 08:54:35 »
Do the Homeworld Clans even keep tabs on the IS? From what I remember is that the Star Adders patrol the fringes of Clan space to make sure none of them ever contact the IS again (I think it was past the planet Ghent or so). So the only way to get news about it would be either by collecting information from the Scorpion empire or by sending out scouts (in this way "It's honorable to be tainted for the motherland!") to get any news. The old clans had their amateurish Intelser agency but I somehow can't picture this (with the conlcusion of WoR at least). I am still waiting for a "Clan Wolverine is back bitches and it has WoB in tow!" scenario.

Maybe we get a "Home Clans and Manei Domini Joint Forces and come now with a vengeance" Scenario  ;)
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Wotan

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #15 on: 04 January 2021, 13:15:56 »
I hope we will see a well planned invasion from the HWC - but that event will not be triggered by any claim from the tainted IS, but will start when the HWC are ready for it.

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #16 on: 05 January 2021, 11:32:34 »
Some speculation, given the mutual respect between CSA and CHH during the WoR and their Agreement, what if CHH contacts the Home Clans for helping the magainstg the dezgra ilClan?

So the Home Clans could be brought back into the universe. With a vengeance.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #17 on: 05 January 2021, 12:29:59 »
Well if Clan Star Adder will honor the agreement between Khan cobb and Khan N'Buta then Clan Hells Horses will not be attacked by the Adders. I bet If there will be an invasion from the Homeworld clans the Lions will attack their old comrades. Like "You can deal with your tainted part yourself right?"

Wotan

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #18 on: 05 January 2021, 13:07:19 »
I'm still not convinced that there is a real split between the Horses and Lions. I suspect ongoing contact. This clan just choosed a way to get the best of both sides.
And it will be interesting which side they choose when the fight will be started.

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #19 on: 06 January 2021, 08:49:30 »
I'm still not convinced that there is a real split between the Horses and Lions. I suspect ongoing contact. This clan just choosed a way to get the best of both sides.
And it will be interesting which side they choose when the fight will be started.
Besides that, Clan Wolf and Clan Wolf-in-Exile have united. Why shall this be impossible for CHH and CSL?
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Manchu

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #20 on: 07 January 2021, 22:42:38 »
The creation of CSL by CSA has largely been seen as part of CSA’s plan to dominate the Grand Council. Maybe the deeper, even more pragmatic point was always to keep a door open to CHH. Could be arranged as a Trial of Absorption.

Wotan

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #21 on: 08 January 2021, 09:15:43 »
In my point of view it was more the preservation of knowledge about conventional warfare and elemental breeding. Every surviving clan have their special focus, but none had tanks and elementals in a way the HH had.
And the Adders understood that a conquest of the IS without conventional forces will fail.

Gaiiten

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #22 on: 08 January 2021, 10:03:02 »
IMHO the Adderss could have preserved this when they had the absorbed Horses keeping in their Clan. Their main ideas behind creating a new Clan were to have a true ally in the Grand Council and to Show the other Clans CSA is not interested to destroy the other Clans (as the Vipers were up to do).
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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #23 on: 08 January 2021, 12:11:51 »
A return of the HW Clans would make sense and would make for a great ultimate showdown. Depending on how the WoB is mixed in and how far Clan Wolf has been able to consolidate its powerbase, this could make for some great storytelling and interesting new tech and units.

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #24 on: 09 January 2021, 11:25:31 »
I hope that there have been some interesting technological advancements achieved by the Home Clans. Given their quantitative inferiority they need something like that to make the story more exciting and not predictable when they are up the fight the ilClan.
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Manchu

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #25 on: 09 January 2021, 12:07:13 »
If CSA can wrangle the rehabilitation of CHH and CGS, including the resources of the respective OZ and Scorpion Empire, that would go a long way to evening the score. There are a couple of other possibilities that can be discussed after the moderators lift the moratorium on discussion of Hour of The Wolf.

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #26 on: 09 January 2021, 13:01:19 »
If CSA can wrangle the rehabilitation of CHH and CGS, including the resources of the respective OZ and Scorpion Empire, that would go a long way to evening the score. There are a couple of other possibilities that can be discussed after the moderators lift the moratorium on discussion of Hour of The Wolf.

To my knowledge the Scorpion Empire has severed all ties with their Clan counterparts.  Now they are a Periphery realm with some really great tech, slowly expanding and sending out seekers to help with their need for 1st Star League memorabilia.  There is too much bad blood between them and the Homeworlds and by 3150 hopefully will be a tough nut to crack.

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #27 on: 09 January 2021, 13:16:21 »
To my knowledge the Scorpion Empire has severed all ties with their Clan counterparts.  Now they are a Periphery realm with some really great tech, slowly expanding and sending out seekers to help with their need for 1st Star League memorabilia.  There is too much bad blood between them and the Homeworlds and by 3150 hopefully will be a tough nut to crack.
As far as we know there has been no contacts between Home Clans and Scorpion Empire for decades.
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Manchu

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #28 on: 09 January 2021, 14:07:28 »
Some of the HWCs tried to stir up social tensions within the Imperio with rumors about dissidents descending from the Not Named Clan. CSA raided them outright IIRC, but that will have been quite a while back by 3150. From the HWC side of things, especially for CSA, I think there is room for drawing a distinction between tainted and untainted within CGS. Now, is the Scorpion Empire going to care what the HWCs think? Hm, well, if you really did stop caring, you could hardly still be Clan.

The purported problem with CGS post-WoR was unsanctioned genetic incorporation. But I suspect, from CSA’s POV, the real issue was that CGS had emerged from the WoR almost as strong as CSA. To me, I think this is parallel to what Gaiten explained above regarding CSA’s treatment of CHH: secure a firm ally and distinguish themselves from the bloodcrazed Vipers. In the case of CGS, it was too powerful to become an ally CSA could control, for now. So CSA mollified CCC (who were arguably more mad over losing half a cluster at Hector than CGS’s “taint”) with Abjuration, per the fashion of those times, but also on the whole allowed CGS to simply continue emigrating.

It is not impossible that CSA was already aware by 3078 of CGS’s ambitions regarding Neuva Castile and calculated that abjuring CGS would simply be the most efficient way to consolidate CSA power in the Homeworlds. For their part, it’s hard to imagine CGS being irretrievably offended by this, considering they themselves had already foreseen it to a significant degree. Looked at dispassionately, both CSA and CGS got what they wanted for the time being. Now that time has passed, and new problems are emerging, there should be room for new approaches, too.
« Last Edit: 09 January 2021, 14:29:20 by Manchu »

Orwell84

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Re: Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder
« Reply #29 on: 09 January 2021, 18:51:57 »
As far as we know there has been no contacts between Home Clans and Scorpion Empire for decades.

OTP:Hanseatic Crusade doesn't mention any contacts, true, but I don't think it need be ruled out entirely. The Homies and Scorpions could have come to a tacit agreement - the Home Clanners would periodically mount small raids upon the Imperio for combat experience, prestige, outlet for younger warriors, etc, and the Scorpions would gain the same in the process. After all, the Scorpions are still Clanners and need worthy opponents - who else would be available between 3090 and 3140?. Since these fights would be on the same scale as 3rd SW-style raids, they wouldn't be important enough to mention in OTP:Hanseatic Crusade. Out-of-universe, of course, I suspect TPTB don't want to write themselves into a corner re the Home Clans until they're ready to bring them back.

As to Star Adder contacts within the present-day Inner Sphere, I wouldn't mind that either. One of my fan theories is that the Adders, with the consent of the Cobras, allowed the Stone Lions to maintain back channels with their Spheroid kin - something the Horses kept from the Council of Six (and why it doesn't show up in the Diamond Shark's Wars of Reaving report). The Adders have always been one of the more pragmatic Clans, enough IMHO to be flexible on dealing with 'tainted' Clanners in the Imperio or Inner Sphere if it furthers their long-term goal of restoring the League with themselves in charge.
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