Discussion Sidequest: LAMs

[Scotty]

The best thing any BT fan can do about Harmony Gold is forget they exist.

[glitterboy2098]

Quadvees are LAM like, and arguably less useful. And study of quadvee tech is likely to help reverse engineer conversion system tech, which is the main 'lostech' involved with LAMs. Especially since odds are that there are a number of LAMs sitting in storage depots, private mechhangers, and museums which can be studied. (For that matter, one of the research and testing facilities of the Harvard Company on epsilon eridani, the company that made the wasp lam, was found during the republic era by Kressly War Works and turned into a mech factory. Who knows what blueprints, testing data, and even leftover prototypes they might have found and studied? Or sold to interested parties?)

[LAMFAN]

Mods, can we get the LAM discussion off into its own thread? I mean, the Urbie LAM was one thing (and it’s not even part of the Merecnaries KS), but it looks like we’re gonna get into a whole LAM thing and it doesn’t belong here. Thanks.

Sounds good, we can move it elsewhere, but I was mostly done anyway. Just responding to stuff. We can clear out from here (though seriously, consider it please for the future  ).

Abandons thread

Oh wait, nevermind, it just got separated from the main discussion.

Well, either way.

Quadvees are LAM like, and arguably less useful. And study of quadvee tech is likely to help reverse engineer conversion system tech, which is the main 'lostech' involved with LAMs. Especially since odds are that there are a number of LAMs sitting in storage depots, private mechhangers, and museums which can be studied. (For that matter, one of the research and testing facilities of the Harvard Company on epsilon eridani, the company that made the wasp lam, was found during the republic era by Kressly War Works and turned into a mech factory. Who knows what blueprints, testing data, and even leftover prototypes they might have found and studied? Or sold to interested parties?)

Glitterboy is on point. Reverse engineering any lost tech from existing LAMs would go a long way to actively bringing them back.

The best thing any BT fan can do about Harmony Gold is forget they exist.

No, the best thing any BT fan can do is spite them and rub their faces in their loss for originally taking away something fun from us.

[General308]

delete

[Maingunnery]

Oh, thank you for clarifying! Then yes, we should absolutely get updated mk2 models/artwork of LAMs to match current Stinger/Wasp/PHawks.

Quite a difficult endeavor, design-wise there is a lot more flexibility/leeway in the form of a 'Mech than that of an ASF.

Personally I think there is more of a future in doing the reverse of the mk2s, instead of making LAMs look like existing Mechs, it would be more useful to make LAMs look like existing ASFs (a mk3 if you will). Which would make ASF miniatures far more useful in the standard game.

[Scotty]

No, the best thing any BT fan can do is spite them and rub their faces in their loss for originally taking away something fun from us.

Why?  They don't care about you, or BattleTech, or that they lost.  It is a non-thing.  The only meaningful result of this attitude is looking like a petulant child that got their way on the playground.

[Kit deSummersville]

Why?  They don't care about you, or BattleTech, or that they lost.  It is a non-thing.  The only meaningful result of this attitude is looking like a petulant child that got their way on the playground.

Sun Tzu Liao doing that is what triggered the Jihad, after all.

[General308]

I think they should.   And I haven't used one since like the early 90's.   I just never bought the they don't fit the universe garbage.     What they should be poistioned as is Special forces machines.  So rare and used for very specific roles.   


That said what I really want is a Waneta just mech.  Not a LAM in mech mode.  That is a cool looking little mini that we are just missing out on having as a mech only.

[LAMFAN]

Why?  They don't care about you, or BattleTech, or that they lost.  It is a non-thing.  The only meaningful result of this attitude is looking like a petulant child that got their way on the playground.

Well for one, the original designs before HG threw its fit were much better than current LAM versions, and we deserve to officially have the artwork updated to match the current designs, as mentioned before. We had the Unseens (Wasp, P-Hawk, etc) return to their original designs, or at least close enough to them that they look damn fine, so we deserve the same treatment for the LAMS.

The other meaningful result is that HG can't do jack about it, and we have LAMs that look similar to their original design without that joke of a company getting in the way.

And that's not an accurate analogy; it would be more analogous to say:
Its like a kid who finally smacked the bully in the nose, and went to play on the swingset he was being kept from by said bully, flipping him the bird before going to enjoy himself while the bully doesn't dare try to pull the same crap again for fear of another smack.

I think they should.   And I haven't used one since like the early 90's.   I just never bought the they don't fit the universe garbage.     What they should be poistioned as is Special forces machines.  So rare and used for very specific roles.   


That said what I really want is a Waneta just mech.  Not a LAM in mech mode.  That is a cool looking little mini that we are just missing out on having as a mech only.

The "they don't fit the universe" crap is a lazy non-argument. Plenty of things DON'T fit the universe, like Aliens or artificial gravity (as opposed to the simulated gravity during 1g burn). LAM's aren't one of them, and they're an existing technology with a lot of potential to be brought back, especially as Special forces, like you said.

[LAMFAN]

I am disappointed the Urbie LAM isn't canonized.  I guess there too much dislikes from people whom don't like LAMs.   Sad.

Thanks for making the UrbieMech LAM miniature.

You're not wrong, there's always going to be people who have incorrect opinions on LAMs (and yes, they are INCORRECT opinions, fight me). Thankfully there's a few who shine through to support them like they deserve.

Urbanmech LAM makes sense being non-canon, though. That is unless they switch some stuff around for it (have to improve that engine rating at LEAST so you have a 3 JMP).

Either way, I'm taking full advantage to push for improvements to the LAM rules AT LEAST, or to have a resurgence of them in the future of the setting.

[tassa_kay]

I didn't have an opinion on LAMs either way until Tyler Jorgensson recently pointed out to me that amazing LAM battle in the 1st Succession War Historical where they landed on the Combine Samarkand carrier and wasted it from the inside. That was such a cool battle and I'd love to see it played out on tabletop. I'm hoping that maybe one day the Raven Alliance might start making LAMs. I feel like they'd really get some mileage out of them.

(I belatedly realized this got spun into a separate thread. Apologies, mods, I didn't see until after.)

[tassa_kay]

Make their use not only less janky, but actually useful... then work it into the story as a middle finger to the ilClan.  Effective LAMs are part our response to your 'so-called' Star League.  Come get some!

Careful what you wish for. Let the Ravens get ahold of LAM technology and watch them do it ten times better.

[LAMFAN]

(I belatedly realized this got spun into a separate thread. Apologies, mods, I didn't see until after.)

Oh no you're fine, that was a different thread that got spun off into another.

[LAMFAN]

Careful what you wish for. Let the Ravens get ahold of LAM technology and watch them do it ten times better.

They might make it 10 times better, but the IS would still have 20 times the number.

[tassa_kay]

They might make it 10 times better, but the IS would still have 20 times the number.

More targets for me to shoot down. :)

[General308]

Careful what you wish for. Let the Ravens get ahold of LAM technology and watch them do it ten times better.

10 times better?  Congrats for the first time the Ravens would be close to being relvant.

[tassa_kay]

10 times better?  Congrats for the first time the Ravens would be close to being relvant.

"Relevant" is subjective.

[Sartris]

their role in the palmyra disaster seems relevant.

[LAMFAN]

10 times better?  Congrats for the first time the Ravens would be close to being relvant.

Shots fired

More targets for me to shoot down. :)

The classic line of Quality Simps before they face the Quantity flood.

How'd Tukayyid go for ya?

[tassa_kay]

How'd Tukayyid go for ya?

How'd LAM relevance in the setting go for you? 

[LAMFAN]

How'd LAM relevance in the setting go for you? 

Oh not well at ALL. But we'll see what the future holds.

[Sartris]

How'd LAM relevance in the setting go for you? 

Search for answers on Gibson

[tassa_kay]

I still genuinely want to see the Ravens develop their own LAMs. I think with their aerospace expertise, they're well suited to make the most of them, and anything that helps me kill Dracs and Davionistas in new and creative ways is of interest to me. Plus I figure if the Horses can embrace QuadVees, the Ravens could embrace LAMs and get over that stupid stigma.

Search for answers on Gibson

I don't get the reference but I'll take your word for it. You know all (or at least most).

[Sartris]

Gibson was where the word made their lams. It’s glass now

[glitterboy2098]

Also i seem to remember a mention in a sourcebook that the Ravens tried to make a fully flight capable non-LAM mech at one point, but failed. Between the ravens and the aerospace focus of the outworlds military, i could see LAMs getting a lot of interest.

[General308]

Also i seem to remember a mention in a sourcebook that the Ravens tried to make a fully flight capable non-LAM mech at one point, but failed. Between the ravens and the aerospace focus of the outworlds military, i could see LAMs getting a lot of interest.

Given how the Clans historicly see LAMs as an abomination I don't see why.   Heck the one time they let a clan have a LAM.  They were like OH this LAM won an emergency trial by combat.  The whole project is a failure time to cancell it.

[tassa_kay]

Given how the Clans historicly see LAMs as an abomination I don't see why.   Heck the one time they let a clan have a LAM.  They were like OH this LAM won an emergency trial by combat.  The whole project is a failure time to cancell it.

The Clans dislike LAMs because they blur the lines between MechWarriors and aerospace pilots. But that same line gets blurred now by the Horses with their QuadVees, so I don't think there's any reason why the Ravens couldn't do the same. The Clans have evolved quite a bit since the REVIVAL days, and in much more drastic ways.

[General308]

The Clans dislike LAMs because they blur the lines between MechWarriors and aerospace pilots. But that same line gets blurred now by the Horses with their QuadVees, so I don't think there's any reason why the Ravens couldn't do the same. The Clans have evolved quite a bit since the REVIVAL days, and in much more drastic ways.

I think we are more likely to get WoB AI LAM's before any clan does that.

[Scotty]

I don't hate the concept inherently of multi-role machines but the concept of AirMech mode needs to be taken out back and shot, both for the health of a tactical engagement that has a LAM in it and so each half of a LAM can be less worse than a normal unit of that type without its intermediate stage being more than the sum of its parts.

[ColBosch]

The Clans are hidebound traditionalists until they decide not to be. The Falcons are so Clan it hurts, but their greatest hero pretended to be a freeborn for a while and got a second Trial of Position, they experimented with LAMs, and they did the whole Red Corsair thing. The Wolves are the Clan of Kerensky, but they have been mucking about with Interface cockpits. Every Clan in the Inner Sphere has been allowing freeborn warriors into their toumans, uses artillery and physical attacks, and is willing to forgo batchalls. If the Clans decide to bring LAMs back, they'll just come up with a justification for it.

In the words of a former BattleTech Line Developer, "Clan = hypocrite." Nothing we've seen before or since contradicts that sentiment.

That said, I'd like to see plastic miniatures of at least the existing non-experimental LAMs (Stinger Mk I and II, Wasp Mk I and II, Phoenix Hawk Mk I and II, and Screamer). One of the awesome surprises that I got to participate in was including the LAMs in Tech Readout 3085. It was amazing seeing the response to us bringing back a long-neglected bit of the universe. Randall, Joel, and I did a great job on giving LAMs an updated history, tying them into the universe as a whole and even explaining a few other oddities (like the Valkyrie's origin and why the SLDF never put it into production). So yeah, I want to see them for selfish and prideful reasons.