Clan Fire Mandrill: Monkey Talk

[tassa_kay]

By process of elimination, we had 14 original Kindraa, then 12 in the following year as the Kindraa sorted themselves/dined on the weaker, then an unnamed kindrasc was gobbled up by two Kindraa after the Wolves decimated their forced sometime during the Golden Century, then the Smythe-Jewels fell, then a small unnamed Warden Kindraa was decimated by Sainze sometime during the Warden/Crusader split pre-REVIVAL, then several smaller Kindraa banded together sometime post-REVIVAL (which could be where Kindraa Kline came from, given their composition). I’m inclined to believe Beyl-Grant and Mick-Kreese started out together because they were recipients of Mandrill WarShips when the Kindraa first formed, though I suppose there’s room to say these WarShips were originally given to Beyl and Kreese and they later merged with Grant and Mick respectively to strengthen their ground forces.

Someone needs to come sort this out, damn it.

[Alan Grant]

FIRST PARAGRAPH EDIT: I kinda get your frustration. But also I'm sure its like this in other Clans too. The Bloodname House politics, the Trials for genetic legacies. It can be found in those other Clans too. It just isn't AS visible, AS written about as it is for the Mandrills. That's probably a big part of why I actually find them interesting at this point. I've always found the Bloodname House politics stuff interesting. For the Mandrills, that's on full display, warts and all. With canon sources. I'd sometimes love to have this level of depth and detail with the other Clans and for the most part we just don't.


Love your consolidation of the data, nice work there. I'm saving that for my notes. The only hole I can poke in it is that Samantha Kline is said to be the most popular leader to come along in decades. (FM: CC, Kline Officers page)

So I don't think Kindraa Kline came into existence post-Revival. Decades at least, maybe the entire history book. Not confirmed for sure, but that's where I tilt on that one.

Aside from that, it makes sense. I also agree that there is a distinct possibility that the Kindraa getting 2 warships a-piece may have been Beyl and Kreese, two aerospace-centric Kindraa. Which saw value in the idea of merging with a ground-focused Kindraa at some point to diversify their forces and allow them to hold ground. That makes a lot of sense to me. Their longstanding rivalry may have even compelled it to some degree. One might have done it, then the other didn't want to be outdone.

Also on FM: CC page 44, it displays Kindraa Mick-Kreese's name as: Kindraa Mick-Kreese (Goulet).

That same paragraph says that at times Goulet has risen to prominence in that Kindraa. Quote: "though with the recent capture of Goulet Bloodnamed warriors and genetic material by Kindraa Mattila-Carrol, the resurgence of this Bloodname may be long in coming."

I think Goulet was a separate Kindraa that was recently absorbed, in fairly recent memory as of 3059, with some Goulet bloodheritages/warriors within Mick-Kreese as well as Kline (there is a Goulet Star Colonel there in FM: CC but the Cluster he commands is a mix of elementals and conventional infantry, including some solahma, so this may be a fading warrior on the tail end of their career). But this event very much weakened the Goulets as a Bloodname House.

It's tempting to say the Goulets were perhaps the small Warden Kindraa decimated by Sainze during the Warden/Crusader split pre-Revival. With their absorption by Mattila-Carrol coming later as the survivors just didn't have the strength to remain an independent Kindraa. That whole dynamic left the Goulets in Kindraa Mick-Kreese in the best position to hold some kind of junior leadership position in that Kindraa. Also, a history of sometimes having a leadership role in that Kindraa.

[Terminax]

All very much impressive detective work from you both.

Pins more lines on his conspiracy matrix

So if we count the unknown minor two that immediately didn't make it, Mattila-Carol and Smythe-Jewel each as one Kindraa plus Goulet as once it's own Kindraa we have five of the OG fourteen accounted for. Add in Sainze, Payne, Mick, Kreese, Beyl, Grant and Faraday that gets us seven more so that accounts for twelve. Kline can go either way, so that's potentially thirteen. If there's additional unknown Warden Kindraa that later gets absorbed later that gets us the fourteen.

Tanaga rises to prominence later so they don't count.

Variables: if Beyl-Grant and Mick-Kreese are counted as one each instead, we have two more unmentioned Kindraa. The Goulet could also be the Warden Kindraa that was absorbed later. Kline also could have risen later so we have a fuzzy zone of 2-4 possible extra Kindraa not counting the two weak ones that self destructed right away.

Odds are the first accounting is it. Everyone known or is referenced and it all hangs together right but we can't be sure. Good job guys!

[tassa_kay]

The only hole I can poke in it is that Samantha Kline is said to be the most popular leader to come along in decades. (FM: CC, Kline Officers page)

So I don't think Kindraa Kline came into existence post-Revival. Decades at least, maybe the entire history book. Not confirmed for sure, but that's where I tilt on that one.

On that particular note, it also states this in Kline’s Tactics: “Because its small size made it a tempting target, Kindraa Kline has specialized in defensive tactics over the decades.” That makes me think that Kline isn’t nearly as old as the other Kindraa. FWIW, but I just found that line interesting.

Also on FM: CC page 44, it displays Kindraa Mick-Kreese's name as: Kindraa Mick-Kreese (Goulet).

That same paragraph says that at times Goulet has risen to prominence in that Kindraa. Quote: "though with the recent capture of Goulet Bloodnamed warriors and genetic material by Kindraa Mattila-Carrol, the resurgence of this Bloodname may be long in coming."

I think Goulet was a separate Kindraa that was recently absorbed, in fairly recent memory as of 3059, with some Goulet bloodheritages/warriors within Mick-Kreese as well as Kline (there is a Goulet Star Colonel there in FM: CC but the Cluster he commands is a mix of elementals and conventional infantry, including some solahma, so this may be a fading warrior on the tail end of their career). But this event very much weakened the Goulets as a Bloodname House.

It's tempting to say the Goulets were perhaps the small Warden Kindraa decimated by Sainze during the Warden/Crusader split pre-Revival. With their absorption by Mattila-Carrol coming later as the survivors just didn't have the strength to remain an independent Kindraa. That whole dynamic left the Goulets in Kindraa Mick-Kreese in the best position to hold some kind of junior leadership position in that Kindraa. Also, a history of sometimes having a leadership role in that Kindraa.

I thought about this one, too, but I don’t get the sense that Goulet was Absorbed by Mick-Kreese. I think this is exactly what it says on the tin: Goulet has simply always been part of the Kindraa, with occasional rises in power within the power structure. I think if they were Absorbed in, especially given that they were specifically called out in Mick-Kreese’s entry, that would’ve warranted a mention. I also think the timing of that Kindraa’s decimation is a clue: it seems to have occurred sometime just before the invasion vote, and the tone of Goulet’s rises to power in Mick-Kreese (happening on more than one occasion especially) don’t make their inclusion sound all that recent. I kind of get a Tanaga-vis-a-vis-Faraday vibe from Goulet. And not for nothing, but with Mick-Kreese being solidly Crusader, I don't see them letting a Warden line rise to power.

[Alan Grant]

Yeah this has been interesting, and we've put some good puzzle pieces together. Whether or not it's exactly what happened, it makes sense based on the evidence. Kudos.

It's funny, I've always assumed all the Kindraa date back to the start of the Kindraa system. Mergers/absorptions sure, some destroyed sure. However, I always thought of them coming into existence in that same time period during that fractional reorganization of the Clan.

I never really reconsidered the possibility of a new Kindraa forming long after that.

That warrants some thought. Not sure if that ever happened but it's an interesting angle. It would be a good story tool to separate a Kindraa from the rest of them to give them a more unique origin.

Taking that thought to an extreme, the writers could even really shock everyone and craft a canon story where a new Kindraa was birthed, lived and then died (or someway/somehow went away) at some point far after all the other Kindraa formed and then went away before Revival. Justify the lack of references to it in existing books through the fact that it's a deep dark Mandrill secret for some reason.

That could be fun.

All that wacky speculation aside. I've always had a soft spot for non-solahma conventional infantry. That aspect of the Horses and Vipers appealed to me. Even if I didn't like the rest of the Clan much. Kline is another notable user of conventional infantry. So, it's never topped my favorite list for long, but I do have a soft spot for Kline.

Particularly during the Wars of Reaving era, we see Kline (and others) go fight the Horses on Niles, and are successful for a time. The thought of Horses and Kline conventional infantry fighting a conventional infantry battle puts a smirk on my face.

[Alan Grant]

It would be, it's certainly a possibility. Either due to casualties the Sainze bloodnamed didn't have enough qualified Star Colonels laying around. Or in the intervening years they relaxed the "Sainze Star Colonels only" policy for one or more reasons. Possibly due to that first issue of available Sainze warriors. But also possibly due to internal pressures within the Kindraa to allow some others to rise up within the Kindraa. I feel like there's an interesting untold story there either way.

Pivoting..

Faraday-Tanaga's write up in FM: CC page 43 says that Kindraa used to contain 5 exclusive Bloodnames. It says they now share two minor names with other Kindraa and other Clans, and that a third name is shared with the Smoke Jaguars but might be considered exclusive "in light of recent events."

I think one of those once-exclusive names they now share is Angharobis (pronounced Angharobi ? silent "s"?). Because we get a Star Colonel in the Faraday-Tanaga Kindraa, and another in in Beyl-Grant.

I think Kolomosi may be the other name referenced. We've got 2 canon Star Captain Komolosi's within the Smoke Jaguars.

Within Faraday-Tanaga we also get a Star Colonel Bush referenced in FM: CC.

So it sounds like Faraday-Tanaga, said to have originally consisted of 5 exclusive bloodnames per FM: CC. I believe they were Faraday, Tanaga, Angharobis, Kolomosi and Bush.

If accurate, that does a lot to clarify the history of those 5 bloodnames, as originating within a single Kindraa. The same writeup tells us Faraday ruled it, so it was originally Kindraa Faraday, with the Tanaga's eventually elevating themselves up to hyphenated name prominence.

I'd kind of love it if those 5 Bloodname Founders served together in the same Star or Binary during Operation Klondike.

I just realized I goofed in this. The Bush Bloodname is of Blood Spirit origin. So it seems unlikely that it was one of the Kindraa's five exclusive bloodnames at the start. Guessing at some point the Mandrills won some genetic legacies for the Bush Bloodname, because there are 2 Star Colonel Bush, one in Faraday-Tanaga and one in Kline. That's too prominent in too many places to likely be abtakha warriors taken from that Clan IMO.

But it means We have 4 likely suspects as the initial 5 from Faraday-Tanaga, and one pure unknown.

Guessing the unknown is one of the two described as "being shared with other Kindraa and other Clans." That leaves the field pretty wide open if you scan all the obscure Fire Mandrill Bloodnames.

A part of my brain wants to make the listed secondary languages for the different Kindraa found in Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans useful, to try to make connections between Mandrill bloodnames and their potential ancestral terran heritages and those languages. I know its largely unreliable but it's still an interesting thought exercise. For example we know Laura Payne hailed from Capellan space originally per FM: CC, and that Nathan Faraday was a liason to some Capellan governments. Which explains why those Kindraa have Mandarin as a secondary language.

They are:

Japanese: Sainze, Kline, Faraday-Tanaga
German: Beyl-Grant, Kline
Chinese (the book says Chinese, guessing they meant Mandarin): Payne, Faraday-Tanaga
Spanish: Mick-Kreese, Kline
French: Mick-Kreese
Russian: Mattila-Carrol

[Sjhernan3060]

Yeah this has been interesting, and we've put some good puzzle pieces together. Whether or not it's exactly what happened, it makes sense based on the evidence. Kudos.

It's funny, I've always assumed all the Kindraa date back to the start of the Kindraa system. Mergers/absorptions sure, some destroyed sure. However, I always thought of them coming into existence in that same time period during that fractional reorganization of the Clan.

I never really reconsidered the possibility of a new Kindraa forming long after that.

That warrants some thought. Not sure if that ever happened but it's an interesting angle. It would be a good story tool to separate a Kindraa from the rest of them to give them a more unique origin.

Taking that thought to an extreme, the writers could even really shock everyone and craft a canon story where a new Kindraa was birthed, lived and then died (or someway/somehow went away) at some point far after all the other Kindraa formed and then went away before Revival. Justify the lack of references to it in existing books through the fact that it's a deep dark Mandrill secret for some reason.

That could be fun.

All that wacky speculation aside. I've always had a soft spot for non-solahma conventional infantry. That aspect of the Horses and Vipers appealed to me. Even if I didn't like the rest of the Clan much. Kline is another notable user of conventional infantry. So, it's never topped my favorite list for long, but I do have a soft spot for Kline.

Particularly during the Wars of Reaving era, we see Kline (and others) go fight the Horses on Niles, and are successful for a time. The thought of Horses and Kline conventional infantry fighting a conventional infantry battle puts a smirk on my face.

THANKS TO ALL for this amazing info! Re: the creation of new kindraa when the mandrills went after other clans blood heritages and I think I recall they went after some big names was it to claim them and add them into existing kindraa or was it just for spicing up the gene pool which in some kindraa it apparently was becoming muddy…

[Alan Grant]

All the Clans pursue genetic legacies, especially those they perceive to be particularly good or useful or prestigious in some way. Whether that means that line produces exceptional warriors (or that specific warrior had a very successful career and so their genetic legacy is prized), or whether the geneticists among the scientists are advising the warriors that some fresh genetic legacies would be good for sake of healthy genetic diversity. The Mandrills are no different. With the caveat that the Sainze have some elitist attitudes and prefer DNA from outside the Clan (the other Kindraa DNA not being good enough in their eyes) and Kindraa Payne only trialing for the very best (perhaps taking quality over quantity to an unhealthy extreme) and so losing a lot of Trials, and having a genetic diversity stagnation problem. Per FM: CC.

For the most part the Mandrills attitudes and actions toward this are very much the same as the rest of the Clans. With just a couple Kindraa giving us their own quirky preferences in canon sources.

[Gaiiten]

IMHO the interesting aspect of the Kindraa breeding politics and protocols is that we do not have so many information how other Clans bloodhouses have done this.

[Sjhernan3060]

Yeah this has been interesting, and we've put some good puzzle pieces together. Whether or not it's exactly what happened, it makes sense based on the evidence. Kudos.

It's funny, I've always assumed all the Kindraa date back to the start of the Kindraa system. Mergers/absorptions sure, some destroyed sure. However, I always thought of them coming into existence in that same time period during that fractional reorganization of the Clan.

I never really reconsidered the possibility of a new Kindraa forming long after that.

That warrants some thought. Not sure if that ever happened but it's an interesting angle. It would be a good story tool to separate a Kindraa from the rest of them to give them a more unique origin.

Taking that thought to an extreme, the writers could even really shock everyone and craft a canon story where a new Kindraa was birthed, lived and then died (or someway/somehow went away) at some point far after all the other Kindraa formed and then went away before Revival. Justify the lack of references to it in existing books through the fact that it's a deep dark Mandrill secret for some reason.

That could be fun.

All that wacky speculation aside. I've always had a soft spot for non-solahma conventional infantry. That aspect of the Horses and Vipers appealed to me. Even if I didn't like the rest of the Clan much. Kline is another notable user of conventional infantry. So, it's never topped my favorite list for long, but I do have a soft spot for Kline.

Particularly during the Wars of Reaving era, we see Kline (and others) go fight the Horses on Niles, and are successful for a time. The thought of Horses and Kline conventional infantry fighting a conventional infantry battle puts a smirk on my face.

Thanks for pointing out that about the mandrills infantry. I feel the strength of their foot soldiers gets slept on.

[Sjhernan3060]

The book Warriors of Kerensky tells us that regular fighting earned the Burrocks and Jaguars something like "traditional enemy" status.

So I'm guessing no, and it's not like the Jaguars ever did them any Mandrill-specific special favors that we know of. We do know they were neighbors on Atreus, considering Trialing against your enclave neighbors was a particular favorite activity of both Clans, it's easy to see how they would come to loath each other. Or consider each other a primary target anytime they had the itch or need to declare a Trial of Possession for something.



We know Mick-Kreese had a strong presence on Atreus, because in FM: CC both the Kindraa command unit and another Cluster were on Atreus, alongside a cluster from Faraday-Tanaga.

I'd say any Kindraa that shared a border with the Jaguars probably also fought them a lot. Because of how strict and tough the Jaguars were on their lower castes (causing them not to flourish at all), they depended a lot on the warriors to trial for whatever the Clan needed, making them an extremely aggressive Clan. The Jaguars were the epitome of the idea that you don't need to plant your own crops when you can just kill your neighbor and take theirs.

Thank you for reminding that my fav kindraa (mick kreese) shared a border with the jags on Atreus, I will swap in some jag designs into their line up

[Sjhernan3060]

Mandrill fans I have a question for you all! So I am bulking up my kindraa mick kreese warship fleet and I am confused about the warship paint scheme.. according to canon sources aero fighters etc are painted black with red highlights but the only canon warship picts I can find are from when they combine with another kindraa and become mick kreese Kline see here: https://camospecs.com/listing/lola-iii-destroyer-2/

As that very (colorful…) scheme appears to be a blend of the combined kindraas colors do we think kindraa mick kreese would have just had a black and red scheme?

[Alan Grant]

That's actually a rather interesting question. That warship paint scheme is odd.

I went back to Aerotech 2 the book where that info comes from, and that is how its described. Mick-Kreese-Kline has a striking yellow, green and black scheme. So camospecs is consistent with that book and that book is reflecting the post-merger paint scheme of Mick-Kreese-Kline

It certainly doesn't feel like Mick-Kreese's style (black and red) much at all. I struggle to imagine them choosing that for themselves pre-merger.

It's much closer to a Kline vibe, particularly with the prominent yellow. But Kline's paint scheme is yellow with green and red.

This also makes me wonder what Mick-Kreese-Kline's paint scheme for other assets (i.e. 'mechs, BA, ASFs) looked like post-merger between those two Kindraa.

To answer your question, I'm thinking they came up with a new paint scheme post-merger, and that pre-merger, Mick-Kreese probably used black and red on their warships. But that's really just my opinion.

I think the writers and whoever designated that paint scheme, I think when they were picking it to be put into Aerotech 2 (set post-merger), they looked at the existing paint schemes for each Kindraa and that yellow stuck in their minds a lot, and ended up in the end-result. After the yellow, your brain does start looking for colors that are somewhat complementary to yellow (rather than clashing) and green and black suit that need about as well as anything.

[Sjhernan3060]

That's actually a rather interesting question. That warship paint scheme is odd.

I went back to Aerotech 2 the book where that info comes from, and that is how its described. Mick-Kreese-Kline has a striking yellow, green and black scheme. So camospecs is consistent with that book and that book is reflecting the post-merger paint scheme of Mick-Kreese-Kline

It certainly doesn't feel like Mick-Kreese's style (black and red) much at all. I struggle to imagine them choosing that for themselves pre-merger.

It's much closer to a Kline vibe, particularly with the prominent yellow. But Kline's paint scheme is yellow with green and red.

This also makes me wonder what Mick-Kreese-Kline's paint scheme for other assets (i.e. 'mechs, BA, ASFs) looked like post-merger between those two Kindraa.

To answer your question, I'm thinking they came up with a new paint scheme post-merger, and that pre-merger, Mick-Kreese probably used black and red on their warships. But that's really just my opinion.

I think the writers and whoever designated that paint scheme, I think when they were picking it to be put into Aerotech 2 (set post-merger), they looked at the existing paint schemes for each Kindraa and that yellow stuck in their minds a lot, and ended up in the end-result. After the yellow, your brain does start looking for colors that are somewhat complementary to yellow (rather than clashing) and green and black suit that need about as well as anything.

Thanks alan that makes much more sense. Frankly always thought the mick kreese ships and aero fights should have a black highlighted with a fiery red/orange… but looks like I need to strip off the paint on those models and start again!

[Sjhernan3060]

That's actually a rather interesting question. That warship paint scheme is odd.

I went back to Aerotech 2 the book where that info comes from, and that is how its described. Mick-Kreese-Kline has a striking yellow, green and black scheme. So camospecs is consistent with that book and that book is reflecting the post-merger paint scheme of Mick-Kreese-Kline

It certainly doesn't feel like Mick-Kreese's style (black and red) much at all. I struggle to imagine them choosing that for themselves pre-merger.

It's much closer to a Kline vibe, particularly with the prominent yellow. But Kline's paint scheme is yellow with green and red.

This also makes me wonder what Mick-Kreese-Kline's paint scheme for other assets (i.e. 'mechs, BA, ASFs) looked like post-merger between those two Kindraa.

To answer your question, I'm thinking they came up with a new paint scheme post-merger, and that pre-merger, Mick-Kreese probably used black and red on their warships. But that's really just my opinion.

I think the writers and whoever designated that paint scheme, I think when they were picking it to be put into Aerotech 2 (set post-merger), they looked at the existing paint schemes for each Kindraa and that yellow stuck in their minds a lot, and ended up in the end-result. After the yellow, your brain does start looking for colors that are somewhat complementary to yellow (rather than clashing) and green and black suit that need about as well as anything.

I have struggled to find a black paint scheme I like. Have folks had luck with black contrast paints?

[truetanker]

Tried a deep Charcoal Grey with Crimson Red? It's not midnight black, but better "hiding" colors.

TT

[Sjhernan3060]

Tried a deep Charcoal Grey with Crimson Red? It's not midnight black, but better "hiding" colors.

TT

Interesting what did you prime under it?

[truetanker]

Black Primer.

I used the dark Charcoal Grey coat lightly to highlight the raised panels of the mini, and then went over to highlight them even more in a dry brush style in Crimson Red, making sure to not do bold solid line swaths, like a Draconis Combine. Flaring the engines a bit in Titanium White "ring" inside the cowlings.

Adding either decals or free hand Faction symbols. Final touchup was as small as possible tip head, a black ink wash along the various nook and crannies underside and anywhere I think shadows should be.

Final tidbit, I made sure I had running lights here and there and around various Bay Doors. Changing to a Bright Yellow for drop pads in that classic German +.

Something to give it "pop".

TT

[Sjhernan3060]

York supports 50 fighters, with two hard points. So mounting one Overlord and Sassanid a would be a great way to move an advance cluster of a Kindraa.

The other option is to "find" and upgrade an old Robinson. Though I have the feeling that non made it with the exodus fleet. Too bad, they have some real potential.

Wanted to let you know that I am choosing option C: both!

[truetanker]

Gimme a Potemkin...

How many Defense / Assault-class DS do you want, and Aero Carriers? Several can do both.

And how many for Ground Support.

Do I have enough time to de-dock several pieces of hardware and deploy a Mobile Slip Station and its "Support" as well?

I mean, 10 Titan-Cs, 5 SLDF Elephants, 5 Overlord-Cs, 5 Union-Cs, 5 Lion-WDs, 4 Lion-Cs, 5 Sassanids, 1 Station ( say 6 Collars ).

That leaves me open with 5 Collars left.

Yeah... your System is mine.

TT

[Sjhernan3060]

Kindraa mick kreese is noted has having an aerospace command binary, as a an aggressive Crusader faction what aero fighters would you recommend for such a unit?

[Alan Grant]

This article, which touches on Mandrill aerospace via looking at their RATs, might be helpful to you.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,5112.0.html

FM: CC says the Mick-Kreese OmniFighter Command Binary specializes in naval warfare and upper atmosphere operations, almost never fighting close to the ground.

That suggests to me they use heavier airframes for the bulk of that force. In space, you generally want heavies. You can use thrusters to turn to offset the lack of speed, while having all that hull armor and firepower of the heavies or perhaps mediums.

So I'm picturing an aerospace binary with a strong contingent of heavies like the Kirghiz or Jengiz. Alongside a similar or even same amount of good mediums like the Visigoths/Jagatai which will be better able to dogfight most fighters. There might be a small number of light fighters, like a single point to each Star, for interceptor/recon work.

That article I referenced above suggests they have the Scytha? I do in fact see it on many parts of the FM: Updates RAT for Mandrill frontline aerospace. If true, that's an impressive bird and an expensive one that I'm guessing they have to import from the Falcons. I never thought of the Scytha as being a Fire Mandrill machine. If they have any of those I could see them being somewhat prized and therefore a command unit would be a good place for them.

[Sjhernan3060]

This article, which touches on Mandrill aerospace via looking at their RATs, might be helpful to you.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,5112.0.html

FM: CC says the Mick-Kreese OmniFighter Command Binary specializes in naval warfare and upper atmosphere operations, almost never fighting close to the ground.

That suggests to me they use heavier airframes for the bulk of that force. In space, you generally want heavies. You can use thrusters to turn to offset the lack of speed, while having all that hull armor and firepower of the heavies or perhaps mediums.

So I'm picturing an aerospace binary with a strong contingent of heavies like the Kirghiz or Jengiz. Alongside some Visigoths/Jagatai which will be better able to dogfight most fighters. There might be a small number of light fighters, like a single point to each Star, for interceptor/recon work.

That article I referenced above suggests they have the Scytha? I do in fact see it on many parts of the FM: Updates RAT for Mandrill frontline aerospace. If true, that's an impressive bird and an expensive one that I'm guessing they have to import from the Falcons. I never thought of the Scytha as being a Fire Mandrill machine. If they have any of those I could see them being somewhat prized and therefore a command unit would be a good place for them.

As always alan you bring the receipts ( as the kids say) I do in fact have a Scylla Mech scale and a mini one but I don’t have the heaviest ones (yet) so what’s an ideal mission for this binary? Are they trying to take out dropships and running escort?

[Alan Grant]

Thank you 

Take out dropships and escorting warships yes, sure.

They'd definitely want the ability to fight other pilots and win in Zell dogfights. Which is by far the most common thing they'd be doing in terms of combat.

The typical Mandrill trial is definitely a smaller size Zell fight. The Command Binary would want to be able to get involved in those now and then. Whether as a whole (the entire Binary) or as a slice of the unit that gets bid into a Trial now and then.

This unit would be the Kindraa leader's cornerstone for any fight they decide to get involved in personally. That could mean outside the Kindraa for sure but it could also mean a fight from within the Kindraa. Like some Star Colonel challenges a decision via a Trial of Refusal. In many cases the disposition of the forces (the odds) is a reflection of the vote.

I could see the Kindraa Leader relying on that Command Binary for some fights like that, and just anything the Kindraa Leader decides to get personally involved in.

I could absolutely also just see the Kindraa Leader leading that binary over toward the enclave of another Kindraa or another Clan now and then just to find a good fight and to keep up the warrior reputation of the unit.

[Sjhernan3060]

Thank you 

Take out dropships and escorting warships yes, sure.

They'd definitely want the ability to fight other pilots and win in Zell dogfights. Which is by far the most common thing they'd be doing in terms of combat.

The typical Mandrill trial is definitely a smaller size Zell fight. The Command Binary would want to be able to get involved in those now and then. Whether as a whole (the entire Binary) or as a slice of the unit that gets bid into a Trial now and then.

This unit would be the Kindraa leader's cornerstone for any fight they decide to get involved in personally. That could mean outside the Kindraa for sure but it could also mean a fight from within the Kindraa. Like some Star Colonel challenges a decision via a Trial of Refusal. In many cases the disposition of the forces (the odds) is a reflection of the vote.

I could see the Kindraa Leader relying on that Command Binary for some fights like that, and just anything the Kindraa Leader decides to get personally involved in.

I could absolutely also just see the Kindraa Leader leading that binary over toward the enclave of another Kindraa or another Clan now and then just to find a good fight and to keep up the warrior reputation of the unit.

Andrew kreese per the Crusader field manual is I assume a pilot as the micks were infantry. So would kreese also have been the captain of one of the two warships they controlled? He was noted as “ being highly ambitious” so I can invision a guy like that wanting to rack up impressive kills in his fighter and or crusing around in their warship to look cool

[Alan Grant]

On the Mick-Kreese page of FM: CC under Officers it says Andrew Kreese is an accomplished pilot and a "veteran Warship captain."

I don't think that means he's a warship captain NOW, I think that speaks to his codex/history up to this point. He's done both, he's capable at both. He probably started his career as a pilot and sustained that while jumping over to naval command at some point in his career, maintaining both his skills as a pilot as well as serving as a warship officer for some period of time.

I don't think as Kindraa Leader he'd be wearing that hat as well. The simple fact is he wouldn't always be present. Just by being on-planet for example, if your warships are at a standard jump point, then you are probably around 7 days travel (maybe more, maybe less) to get to them. If they get caught up in an action or emergency immediately, the Kindraa Leader would need days to arrive. That's assuming he's even in the same solar system.

Warships (any spacecraft really) need someone in command able to manage the day-to-day operations.

So to me it isn't realistic that the Kindraa Leader would command either or both warships simultaneously.

We've seen most Clans have a designated Star Admiral occupying a fleet command role. Same thing comes to mind here. Makes sense when you consider that many jumpships/dropships, at least on paper, are organized into naval stars of those types with a Star Commodore over them.

So in total you'd have something like:
2 Warship Star Commodores (one per warship in command)
1-2 Jumpship Star Commodores (each commanding a jumpship star of 5-6 vessels each)
2-3 Dropship Star Commodores (each commanding a dropship star of 5-6 vessels each)

It could even be more than that (or perhaps less, we just don't know the full size of their spacecraft navy). But when you add that up and realize you are probably talking about a fleet command revolving around 5+ Star Commodores, having a Star Admiral over that bunch looks increasingly likely. Though it's just as likely that person is flying a desk most of the time, with the various naval commands scattered around doing everything from transport to trade in smaller contingents.

EDIT: I think when Andrew Kreese is on a warship. He's not ordering the crew to go to third watch and to deploy or recover the solar sail. He's more like a political leader/honored guest. At most, he's telling that Star Admiral or that Star Commodore what to do on the strategic level. For example, giving the order to start a Trial, to attack, to retreat, big picture stuff where that Star Colonel/Star Commodore/Star Admiral may defer to the Kindraa Leader for leadership.

[Sjhernan3060]

On the Mick-Kreese page of FM: CC under Officers it says Andrew Kreese is an accomplished pilot and a "veteran Warship captain."

I don't think that means he's a warship captain NOW, I think that speaks to his codex/history up to this point. He's done both, he's capable at both. He probably started his career as a pilot and sustained that while jumping over to naval command at some point in his career, maintaining both his skills as a pilot as well as serving as a warship officer for some period of time.

I don't think as Kindraa Leader he'd be wearing that hat as well. The simple fact is he wouldn't always be present. Just by being on-planet for example, if your warships are at a standard jump point, then you are probably around 7 days travel (maybe more, maybe less) to get to them. If they get caught up in an action or emergency immediately, the Kindraa Leader would need days to arrive. That's assuming he's even in the same solar system.

Warships (any spacecraft really) need someone in command able to manage the day-to-day operations.

So to me it isn't realistic that the Kindraa Leader would command either or both warships simultaneously.

We've seen most Clans have a designated Star Admiral occupying a fleet command role. Same thing comes to mind here. Makes sense when you consider that many jumpships/dropships, at least on paper, are organized into naval stars of those types with a Star Commodore over them.

So in total you'd have something like:
2 Warship Star Commodores (one per warship in command)
1-2 Jumpship Star Commodores (each commanding a jumpship star of 5-6 vessels each)
2-3 Dropship Star Commodores (each commanding a dropship star of 5-6 vessels each)

It could even be more than that (or perhaps less, perhaps the Potemkin means Mick-Kreese doesn't need as many jumpships for certain duties and situations at least). But when you add that up and realize you are probably talking about a fleet command revolving around 5+ Star Commodores, having a Star Admiral over that bunch looks increasingly likely.

See this was my follow up thoughts and questions as well. I had not through the depth of the kindraa org chart… as a kindraa leader is essential a mini khan or khan of his or hers mini clan of you like then as you noted kreese likely would be wrapped up in the politicking rather then punching aspect of clan life.

[tassa_kay]

See this was my follow up thoughts and questions as well. I had not through the depth of the kindraa org chart… as a kindraa leader is essential a mini khan or khan of his or hers mini clan of you like then as you noted kreese likely would be wrapped up in the politicking rather then punching aspect of clan life.

To be fair, in the Clans, and maybe especially in the Mandrills, a great deal of that politicking is the punching! 

[Alan Grant]

To be fair, in the Clans, and maybe especially in the Mandrills, a great deal of that politicking is the punching! 

Hey Yo!   

[Sjhernan3060]

Hey Yo!   

Lol in deed! As a the Kindraa power balance was so delicate what could a very ambitious kindraa leader like kreese do to vault his kindraa into a higher tier? As an aerospace focused force I would think kreese would be focused on increasing his fleet into an unassailable position some head canon I had for this was: 1) capturing a lagging convoy from the fleeing nova cats 2) locating an untapped naval cache ( WOR noted a number of these did exist 3) utilizing their transport capacity in their potekmin to assist another clan in a “rent to buy” deal for a new or used warship ( is that a thing??)