Author Topic: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second  (Read 22795 times)

Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #60 on: 15 March 2023, 18:44:13 »
I'd push the panic button hit earlier... think Georgia...  8)

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #61 on: 15 March 2023, 20:34:42 »
Whitewall tires on anything after 1939 has struck me as inanely silly.  I don't know why, but it gives me hives.

So furthering the idea of the Chinese hardware bought sometime during 2008...maybe a fifteen year contract order to buy those ZBLs and ZTLs at the procurement budget of 40-80 million USD equivalent, at a price of 1.6 million per vehicle that'd let me buy 280 vehicles easily enough - about 105 ZTL-11s and 190 ZBL-08s.  That's a lot more ZBLs than I'd figured, but so it goes.  At a total of about 480 million, that's a long-term buy-in but I think it's spreadable over the period of 2008-2023, which is 32 million dollars from procurement a year.  Expensive...but maybe I can get some support from the Chinese government for some subsidies in the buy.  After all, it's tying an Eastern European nation into a Chinese market, which will have follow-on as other industries turn to Beijing for connections.  Serednya Slaviyan wood from the forests is going to be valuable stuff, at the very least.

I suppose prior to that the tanks would have been upgraded by the Poles; the PT-91 has been around since 1995 so say it was upgraded around 2000-2003 or so, as a less expensive upgrade than buying new tanks.  By 2008 or so, though, the BTR-80s are pushing into their 25th year, and the Chinese deal was pushed through - maybe with a scandal of kickbacks for procurement officers.  That goes public, and some colonels get sent to jail, but the assessors decide that the deal outside of the bribery was a solid one and permits the contract to continue.

I'm liking the Chinese option more, it's different and interesting, and the vehicles are pretty decent.  The ZBL-08 IFV also carries a seven-man squad, so carrying a five-man fire team plus two scouts in each.

ZBL-08
  Vehicle Crew
    Commander (FB Mini Beryl)
    Gunner (FB Mini Beryl)
    Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  Rifle Team
    Platoon Leader (FB Beryl)
    Team Leader (FB Beryl + Pallad)
    Grenadier (RPG-7, FB Beryl)
    Automatic Rifleman (Ultimax 100)
    Marksman (FR F2)
  Scout Team
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
ZBL-08
  Vehicle Crew
    Commander (FB Mini Beryl)
    Gunner (FB Mini Beryl)
    Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  Rifle Team
    Platoon Sergeant (FB Beryl)
    Team Leader (FB Beryl + Pallad)
    Grenadier (RPG-7, FB Beryl)
    Automatic Rifleman (Ultimax 100)
    Rifleman (FB Beryl)
  Scout Team
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
ZBL-08
  Vehicle Crew
    Commander (FB Mini Beryl)
    Gunner (FB Mini Beryl)
    Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  Rifle Team
    Medic (CZ-75)
    Team Leader (FB Beryl + Pallad)
    Grenadier (RPG-7, FB Beryl)
    Automatic Rifleman (Ultimax 100)
    Rifleman (FB Beryl)
  Scout Team
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
ZBL-08
  Vehicle Crew
    Commander (FB Mini Beryl)
    Gunner (FB Mini Beryl)
    Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  Rifle Team
    Drone Operator (FB Beryl)
    Team Leader (FB Beryl + Pallad)
    Grenadier (RPG-7, FB Beryl)
    Automatic Rifleman (Ultimax 100)
    Rifleman (FB Beryl)
  Scout Team
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
VBL
  Vehicle Crew
    Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  Scout Team
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
VBL
  Vehicle Crew
    Driver (FB Mini Beryl)
  Scout Team
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
    Dismounted Scout (FB Beryl)
ZTL-11
ZTL-11
ZBL-08 (120mm mortar)

There's the full makeup of a Light Cavalry platoon, going with the Chinese equipment.  I'm warming to the idea of going Chinese, honestly, because it does make for a unique tech base, and I kind of like the background of it all above.  Any reasons I shouldn't?
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Failure16

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #62 on: 15 March 2023, 22:29:07 »
Why, uh, why...why would you want to buy anything from China?

I'd rather you stick with the ex-WarPac gear and cook up some excuse to have an Israeli, German, or South African firm upgrade the Hell out of them into something really neat.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #63 on: 15 March 2023, 23:53:54 »
honestly, given the policies of late stalinist russia, that the area wouldn't have gotten heavy industrial production infrastructure is weird. that was one of the key elements of soviet social policies in their outlying areas, to the point that by the 60's, 70's, and 80's much of their military hardware was mostly being built in factories outside of russia proper, that had been buuilt in the 40's and 50's. (and one of the reasons that russian industry tanked so hard after the USSR broke apart)

i would argue the more probable bit is that they had such industry, but their early years after the breakup of the USSR saw said industry collapse (due to loss of supply lines, economic disruptions, and the general corruption issues) outside of a few specific areas of non-military production.

chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #64 on: 16 March 2023, 01:15:03 »
Political hot potato in what way?  Obviously avoiding rule 4, but I'm curious what you mean.

I'm mixed on the older stuff, since it'd be contemporary to what Serednya Slaviya has already - I'm thinking that after cherrypicking what was the best hardware out of that MRD that made up their army they had a full set of 1985's BTR-80s and BMP-2s, and T-72s for the land forces.  Give the Air Force its squadron of MiG-29s, and as far as Soviet hardware from the mid-1980s goes we're sitting pretty.  It's replacing it in the current years that I'm going around in circles on.

Economic reforms...well, the government that rose up in the wake of the coup/civil war of 1994 probably took its sweet time pushing and rebuilding reforms into the economy.  I imagine the military began its reforms around that time, watching as the West and especially the Americans shrank and reformed its army, then watched again as that army took on the GWOT.  And slowly it modernized, following somewhat in its own organization.

Which led us to the 2000s...maybe Serednya Slaviya didn't join NATO in 1999 or 2004 like Poland or much of Eastern Europe.  The later 2000s roll around, and while we've got good relations with Poland (and relied on their modernization of our T-72s to PT-91 standard) we're still the redheaded stepchild of the region.  So it's about then that the Chinese offer their unbeatably priced modernized vehicles, and Serednya Slaviya snaps it up over the next ten years.  That lets me start the acquisition program for the ZTL-11/ZBL-08 duo and begin getting vehicles, and then the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014 happens and that's when Serednya Slaviya hits the panic button and joins NATO.

It's still a poor country, a domestic GDP per capita of under 5,000 USD per year, but it's getting better and the technology transfers from China, Poland, and France are helping.

I'm liking the Chinese hardware for its price, of course, but also because it makes Serednya Slaviya kind of unique in their makeup.  Sprinkling in some French equipment - the VBLs and MILANs, and a couple platoons of EBRC Jaguar scout vehicles - definitely makes for an eclectic mix of capabilities, all of it wheeled.  Sere-Slav went Chinese eventually, before realizing NATO was a really good idea post-Euromaidan and applied for membership.  I figure they probably got into the alliance in 2015 or 2016, to give time for the debate to occur.  We're probably waiting on EU membership, but haven't joined that organization yet.

What say ye, fellow thread denizens.  Believable delays in rebuilding things economically and a slower reformation of the economy and military and industry leading to the Chinese buy-in and the ZBL/ZTL buy.

The MiG-29s we have...well, we're probably getting desperate help from the Poles to keep them flying, but they're going to have to be replaced sooner or later before they Theseus themselves.

And Daryk makes a good point; the Serednya Slaviyan economy's taken a buffeting but has been growing in these last years, maybe the Italians finally made inroads and started wooing away the procurement office from Beijing's hardware to replace the rest of its Soviet equipment with the Freccia/Centauro combo.  But they don't float, and the Chinese stuff does, and there's a lot of rivers and lakes in those two oblasts...decisions, decisions...

Hot potato because the PRC's regional geopolitical rivalry with the US starts to take off, along with the crackdowns on corruption that come with Xi's ascent. That's why it makes the most sense if that occurs during the 90s before Serednya Slaviyan joins NATO (and the USAF drops some LGBs on the Chinese embassy in Belgrade...)

Military procurement is completely inseparable from geopolitics. Speaking of, Chinese gear is as far as I know, cash and carry and loans are expected to be paid. They're real loans, not 'loan' loans. I don't think China has ever considered entry into the European defence market. Unlike the USSR, the PRC has other (capitalist) ways to generate hard currency than selling MBTs (I'm not being facetious here. There are years where MBTs are one of the main earners of foreign currency for the USSR)
« Last Edit: 22 November 2023, 19:29:57 by chanman »

PsihoKekec

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #65 on: 16 March 2023, 01:35:16 »

I picture Serednya Slaviya as having a decent civilian-market factory setting; there's a tractor and engine plant in Rivne (along with a nuclear power plant) but I don't see much in the way of homegrown military hardware.  The heavy industry required for armor working and building armored vehicle chassis just isn't there.  Small things like VBLs with what amounts to structural steel, okay, I can build those but it's basically a glorified offroad mini-SUV.  Electronics...would be imported; I'm dealing with a country that still manufactures vacuum tubes in large numbers.  It's a bit behind the times.

As far as comparitive nations go, Slovenia's got a similar population but half the land area.  However...a quick check shows they produce their own armored personnel carrier, with help from GenDyn Land Systems Europe.  The Valuk isn't heavily armored, only against 12.7mm fire from the front 30 degree arc and 7.62mm fire around the rest of the vehicle.  That's not that heavy, and gives me a baseline to work with.


Valuk is a licensed copy of Austrian Pandur made in Ravne steelworks. However before the 90's economic hardships TAM factory (they made trucks and busses) in Maribor made BOV series of armored vehicles for JLA, their chassis being based on trucks they made. You can make wheeled APCs if you have tractor/truck/bus manufacturing, but they won't be as good as those of established AFV manufacturers, however during economic hardships government might take this route to save a company with military contract, purchase the armor plates in Ukraine, use weapons from stocks and make everything else in house. The end result might not be entirely to army's liking, but jobs saved and spare parts are made locally.
Alternatively your country might make deal with Ukraine for production of BTR-3 or later BTR-4
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chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #66 on: 16 March 2023, 02:01:54 »
Why, uh, why...why would you want to buy anything from China?

I'd rather you stick with the ex-WarPac gear and cook up some excuse to have an Israeli, German, or South African firm upgrade the Hell out of them into something really neat.

It's because he's becoming a real defence minister!  ;D

Picture it: It's 2008 at the Beijing Olympics and Russia has just decided to give Georgia a bad day. The Centauro procurement project is dragging on and keeps getting back burnered as everyone is still dealing with the financial crisis. Slaviyan army HQ realizes they really need something with big guns quickly and on the cheap. Some late night meetings later, Defence Minister Kamas is instructed to inquire discreetly with his hosts while others work the second-hand market.

Minister Kamas gets an informal meeting with a couple of Norinco execs and inquires about an inside line as to some old PTL-02s for immediate delivery. The execs blanch. Obsolete, crappy. Good for brushfire skirmishing in Africa, but nothing that would deter the Russians. Also, none are in deliverable condition. They suspect the good minister is completely out of his depth anyway if he's asking for a 105mm assault gun instead of ATGM carriers to deter the armour-heavy Russians.

They start slamming back shots of baijiu (100 proof+ moonshine distilled typically from sorghum as well as anything with saccharifiable carbohydrates including peas, barley, and rice of which Moutai is probably the best known). Listen, the reps say. If you want the PTLs, we can't stop you, but they won't be ready for a while. The last security deal with <country> included some and they picked over the ones in the best shape already. The only vehicles left are only good for scrap. The Norinco reps confide that they aren't even that cheap for newly-made vehicles because the PTL factory has a bad graft problem and the surplus ones are in poor shape.

"But there's another factory with an up and coming design team that's got something new coming up at the same time. More expensive, but not by as much as you might think. All-new design! Like a Piranha III. Modular, a whole family of vehicles, like Stryker. SKUs with NATO-compatible weapons. They aren't even supposed to be on the market yet, but there's been some hang-ups with the PLA order because the generals are changing what they want again. If you're willing to be the launch customer, we can cut a deal to sell them below cost just to keep the factory busy. Cheaper than stopping and staring again. You know how it is with factories.

Yes, it's a LOT to think about, Minister. Why don't you visit the banya to clear your mind? Why is there a banya in Beijing? Russian businessmen and the Olympic delegation, but we can arrange a session. The Russians are rather occupied with being undiplomatic right now, as I'm sure you know, Minister. They just hired a new Swedish masseuse too. Very blonde. Oh, did we forget to exchange business cards? Senior VP of international sales Francis, but everyone just calls me Fat Leonard."

And if you don't think that's how procurement is actually done...



ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #67 on: 16 March 2023, 10:59:02 »
As far as the why of buying from China, there's a few reasons.  The vehicles in question are modular in design, like the Boxer is, comes with all kinds of variants because of it including a 155mm howitzer, it's amphibious, and the price is a third or less of other options.  I admit I'm looking at it with a capabilities and statistics mindset, as well as one of price.  What don't you like about buying from China, out of curiosity?  I admit it's a long way to ship things and get tech support from,

It may be weird that the region doesn't have much in the way of heavy industry, but that's the way things are in the real world - where Ukraine was a part of the USSR; they invested in a nuclear power plant and a truck factory in the region that makes up Serednya Slaviya.  If Stalin was investing in Warsaw Pact nations rather than in the USSR republics, then it'd make sense that there'd be some heavy industrial capability in Sere-Slav, but maybe you're right - the economic disruptions post-breakup may have collapsed the industry for a while, and it's only getting rebuilt in the late 2000s/early 2010s.

If the best option for Chinese hardware comes in the 1990s, then I'm gonna have to turn that down, because the vehicles I want don't get developed until 2008 at least and aren't really available until a few years after that in any significant number.  As far as the Chinese selling MBTs to raise cash, well, like you said they've got far better options and I suspect those older tanks and vehicles are being kept for their reserve units, just like the Russians and the T-62s and T-64s that are making their way to Ukraine's battlefields.

I suppose I could have the industry to turn out BTR-80s, maybe that's why I have the advanced APC prior to the fall of the USSR.  300 of those produced over five years; that's only five vehicles a month at trickle production.  Certainly enough that I'd be able to build BTR-80s.

2008 sees the start of the Chinese vehicle production; it also sees the start of the BT-4 production over in Ukraine.  Freccia gets ordered in 2006, but it doesn't say when production starts.  Everything I want to invest in shows up around the end of the 2000s, which is about the lifespan of the 1985-produced BTR-80s.  I can see the Serednya Slaviyan start putting out its requests for proposals around then.  The BT-4 has its problems, to the point that even the Iraqis canceled their contract with Ukraine for them.

If I go Chinese, I can afford the three hundred vehicles required to modernize the cavalry forces.  If I go Italian, I can afford to modernize two of the cavalry squadrons, assuming I've got the Freccia's price right.  Alternatively I could skip the cavalry squadrons, leave them with BTR-80 and PT-91, and modernize the three combined arms battalions with Freccias and Centauros.

Chanman's depiction of a military sale...is probably highly accurate.  I'm going to say that it happened, at least as far as generating interest for the Chinese hardware, but even if I don't go Chinese it's still something entirely believable to have occurred.

One thing that strikes me about the difference between China's ZBL-08 and the Italian Freccia is that there's 20 times as many ZBLs.  Over eleven years, the Italians only built and delivered 249 vehicles, while China was turning them out like hot cakes.  I don't know if I'd get enough production for Serednya Slaviya if I went with Freccias.

Okay, looking again at the Freccia's price, it's ... a lot higher than I'd thought initially.  Apparently the first order of 249 vehicles (plus, I assume, all the development costs) was a 1.588 billion dollar program.  That puts the amortized average price at 6.4 million dollars per vehicle.  It's regarded as the costliest of the current Italian programs...damn.  The Centauro's only 1.6 million, which I can do, but the Freccia's priced out of my range.

So my options are go Chinese, or go Ukrainian with the BTR-4, and have a larger tank supply of PT-91s.  At 1.8 million for a BTR-4 at today's prices, 300 of them - enough to replace all the BTR-80s - comes to 540 million, or an average of 36 million dollars out of my 80 million procurement budget.  That budget was smaller in the past, so...well, I can always produce the BTR-4 in-house, licensing the design from Ukraine and reinvigorating my heavy industry.  Armorwise it's stopping 12.7mm on the nose and 7.62mm all-around, so it's not a heavily armored thing like western IFVs are; that's the same protection as the Slovenian Valuk and they produce theirs locally.  Since I'm already producing engines, the only real assistance I'd need is the electronics onboard.

So ZBL-08/ZTL-11 or Centauro/BTR-4, for the future of my cavalry force.  At least BTR-4 is amphibious, even if Centauro isn't.  So why shouldn't I go with China, then, in the end?  The French VBCI was another option I was looking at, but at a price of 4.8 million dollars per, they're out of my price range.  I imagine most other NATO hardware is going to be in the 4-7 million dollar price range, which is one big reason I was looking at the Chinese vehicles at 1.6 million per vehicle.

I wonder if you can put a BMP-2 turret on a BTR-80.  You can, but you get the abandoned BTR-90 out of it.  Scratch that idea...
« Last Edit: 16 March 2023, 11:08:06 by ANS Kamas P81 »
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chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #68 on: 16 March 2023, 11:56:50 »
Defense costs are notoriously opaque. One of the biggest is that programs can have huge fixed costs, especially if they've had protracted development times.

Training specialized workers is expensive and time-consuming, as is building the factories and custom tooling and all the rest of that. The advantages of economies of scale can be really dramatic.

It's why export orders have been important to the French and Swedish defence industries. ZTL-08 has the same advantages as the Stryker family or K-9 SPGs or F-16s. A gigantic domestic customer to fund and amortize all of the startup costs. Or even the F-35. Current fly-away cost is now around $100 million, making them cheaper per unit than brand-new F-16s.

China cranks out thousands of ZTLs for the same reason General Dynamics Canada and related facilities were churning out Strykers: massive reorganization including switching a number of heavy formations to medium wheeled brigades.

PsihoKekec

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #69 on: 16 March 2023, 12:14:44 »
I wonder if you can put a BMP-2 turret on a BTR-80.  You can, but you get the abandoned BTR-90 out of it.  Scratch that idea...

You can't, different turret ring sizes, that's why they needed a new hull with larger turret ring for BTR-90.
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chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #70 on: 16 March 2023, 12:23:46 »
I wonder if you can put a BMP-2 turret on a BTR-80.  You can, but you get the abandoned BTR-90 out of it.  Scratch that idea...

You need to get in touch with your inner crusty hustling small-town mechanic and start slamming together completely unrelated surplus equipment.

How about this Lebanese M113 with a ZSU-23-2 on it?


Like, part of the peace dividend is that a lot of countries dropped dedicated ATGM carriers from their orders of battle. Like TOW Under Armour. Can you take a TUA unit off an M113 or LAV-25 and make it fit a BTR? Get drunk enough, and you just might!



Of note is that if you have a domestic truck industry, you're halfway to being able to make some kind of wheeled AFV.

Anyway, the devil is in the details is that the 105mm is that it's a jack-of-all-trades, master of none compared to say, a dedicated ATGM vehicle and a 120mm gun/mortar like the 2S23 'Nona'.

Even if you go with a new wheeled platform, Serednya Slaviya might end up integrating the Nona turret for ease of logistics instead of switching to AMOS or NEMO.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #71 on: 16 March 2023, 12:49:45 »
Yeah, it's the economy of scale that leans me to the Chinese market.  Add in the fact they've had enough production to wring the bugs out of the system, compared to the Freccia for example, and it does have some attraction.  Plus the sheer drive-away price is hard to beat, though Centauros at 450 vehicles are only 1.6 million as well so it's an even split between that and the ZTL-11 assault gun.

It comes down to which family to buy into, and I admit I'm still leaning to China for sheer cost reasons above everything else.  And their production is for the same reason I'm looking towards them, a major reorganization to a lighter, faster brigade.

And that also brings up the cost of aircraft, at tens of millions per bird.  There's no way I could afford F-16s, for example, even if I wasn't buying IFVs and assault guns on top of my regular procurement requirements for ammunition, food, and other equipment.  I'm going to have MiG-29s for as long as the Americans have B-52s, I think.

Idly, the Stryker was 4.9 million per vehicle back in 2012 dollars, which is also priced out of my league.  Though I'm sure I could get subsidies from the Americans, if I went that way...but I think I'll rule out Strykers.  The Army had enough troubles with its autoloader and lack of mine protection that they got rid of the MGS.  And the price is even worse for classic LAVs at 6 million per vehicle based on 2015 buying all the parts and assembling a new one.

As far as ATGM carriers I've got BRDM-based vehicles for that; I was planning on getting some of Poland's discards on the cheap for that regard.  The ones with the belly wheels removed and the side doors added, Malyutka carriers for the cheap and still effective ATGM.  The Poles got rid of 400 of them somewhere, I figure they got snapped up cheap by the SSLF.

I should work out just how much of a procurement budget I really have, stretched over time.  That'd take some research and effort, I'll work on it later.
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chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #72 on: 16 March 2023, 13:48:01 »
Yeah, it's the economy of scale that leans me to the Chinese market.  Add in the fact they've had enough production to wring the bugs out of the system, compared to the Freccia for example, and it does have some attraction.  Plus the sheer drive-away price is hard to beat, though Centauros at 450 vehicles are only 1.6 million as well so it's an even split between that and the ZTL-11 assault gun.

It comes down to which family to buy into, and I admit I'm still leaning to China for sheer cost reasons above everything else.  And their production is for the same reason I'm looking towards them, a major reorganization to a lighter, faster brigade.

And that also brings up the cost of aircraft, at tens of millions per bird.  There's no way I could afford F-16s, for example, even if I wasn't buying IFVs and assault guns on top of my regular procurement requirements for ammunition, food, and other equipment.  I'm going to have MiG-29s for as long as the Americans have B-52s, I think.

Idly, the Stryker was 4.9 million per vehicle back in 2012 dollars, which is also priced out of my league.  Though I'm sure I could get subsidies from the Americans, if I went that way...but I think I'll rule out Strykers.  The Army had enough troubles with its autoloader and lack of mine protection that they got rid of the MGS.  And the price is even worse for classic LAVs at 6 million per vehicle based on 2015 buying all the parts and assembling a new one.

As far as ATGM carriers I've got BRDM-based vehicles for that; I was planning on getting some of Poland's discards on the cheap for that regard.  The ones with the belly wheels removed and the side doors added, Malyutka carriers for the cheap and still effective ATGM.  The Poles got rid of 400 of them somewhere, I figure they got snapped up cheap by the SSLF.

I should work out just how much of a procurement budget I really have, stretched over time.  That'd take some research and effort, I'll work on it later.

Fighter jets are a rich country's game. I'd set the floor at somewhere around a population of at least 4 million and a GDP of 300 billion or more before seriously contemplating modern aircraft. An air policing role with armed trainers or old F-5s tops, but your 'air force' is likely to consist mostly of Mi-8 helos and old Soviet SAM systems.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #73 on: 16 March 2023, 16:22:22 »
Why, uh, why...why would you want to buy anything from China?

I'd rather you stick with the ex-WarPac gear and cook up some excuse to have an Israeli, German, or South African firm upgrade the Hell out of them into something really neat.
because if you want to run ex-warsaw pact gear, after about 2000 AD china is the only place still building spare parts and new versions. once the soviet stockpiles were sold off from all the breakaways in the 90's, and with russia largely discontinuing their older designs, china is the main place you can still get *new* parts for MiG-21's, T-55's, and so on,.
« Last Edit: 16 March 2023, 16:39:16 by glitterboy2098 »

Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #74 on: 16 March 2023, 18:08:44 »
So your decision to go with the Chinese market is pretty much down to how much you listen to your Political Advisor, Minister Kamas...  :D

Your POLAD is going point out how Taiwan-like Serednya Slaviya is...  ^-^

chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #75 on: 16 March 2023, 18:35:41 »
So your decision to go with the Chinese market is pretty much down to how much you listen to your Political Advisor, Minister Kamas...  :D

Your POLAD is going point out how Taiwan-like Serednya Slaviya is...  ^-^

I mean, I did mention scandals and botched procurement would be realistic. A full-blown diplomatic incident and aborted order would certainly qualify!  :D

Ex-Minister Kamas at a dive bar several months later: "40 million dollars down the drain, and all I got was this immobile mockup, a divorce, and a crappy T-shirt"

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DOC_Agren

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #76 on: 16 March 2023, 20:07:46 »
because if you want to run ex-warsaw pact gear, after about 2000 AD china is the only place still building spare parts and new versions. once the soviet stockpiles were sold off from all the breakaways in the 90's, and with russia largely discontinuing their older designs, china is the main place you can still get *new* parts for MiG-21's, T-55's, and so on,.
Especially where you have a limited ability to "build" spare parts for the older gear.  So when you get the spare parts shortage, you come to the POV do you "buy new/used hardware" that your crews are not familiar with or do you go with hardware they know and understand.
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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #77 on: 16 March 2023, 20:11:15 »
*snip*
Ex-Flunky on the next seat. "I didn't even get a T-shirt"
Or the divorce, apparently...  :D

chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #78 on: 16 March 2023, 20:19:40 »
Or the divorce, apparently...  :D

If the state wanted you to get married, it would have paid you enough to afford a wedding  ;D

Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #79 on: 16 March 2023, 20:22:40 »
Mine was in my uncle's back yard...  ^-^

chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #80 on: 16 March 2023, 20:30:19 »
because if you want to run ex-warsaw pact gear, after about 2000 AD china is the only place still building spare parts and new versions. once the soviet stockpiles were sold off from all the breakaways in the 90's, and with russia largely discontinuing their older designs, china is the main place you can still get *new* parts for MiG-21's, T-55's, and so on,.

That would be the joke though - China doesn't build straight WP gear after the Sino-Soviet split in the 60s. In 2000, the most reliable source of new old stock Soviet equipment would be either Russia or Ukraine.

Especially from the late 1970s to 1989, there's a reason why the WZ551 APC series look more like the Fuchs than BTRs or why their various old tracked APCs look so different from the M113 or MT-LB.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #81 on: 17 March 2023, 06:16:01 »
My thought for the MiG-29s was that a Soviet squadron was based there, and when the USSR dried up it was left behind like Ukraine inheriting Backfire bombers and part of the Soviet nuclear arsenal.  Looking at the Baltic Trio though, for similarly sized Air Forces they're pretty damn small.  Six to eight aircraft each, mostly transport planes with a couple helicopters.  So the MiGs are out, and we're operating a mix of An-2s, An-26s, and Mi-8s that we're keeping airborne with prayers and wherever we can get spare parts from.

I suppose that we're turning over airspace defense to NATO, like the Baltics.  Serednya Slaviya's got some SA-9 Gaskins still floating around, so we're slightly better off than they are, but it still comes down to MANPADS to defend airspace.  Radar stations for surveillance, and I still picture the idea of a couple civilian airstrips having a small military detachment to allow dispersal of aircraft away from the main airbase in time of war.

Aircraft...Say four Mi-8s, four Mi-2s, two Cessna 172 trainers, three An-2s, one An-26 that serves as the presidential transport.  Each aircraft has more than one crew; I've got about 45 pilots in the Air Force based on the American ratio of 24:1.

Russia's still got deep stocks of working older equipment, we're seeing them deployed in Ukraine.  So spare parts and old hardware is definitely available from Russia, though I'm hesitant as hell to rely on them for equipment.  The corruption pandemic in the Russian military means I'd probably be buying empty hulls with all their valuable bits sold off on the black market...

So I found some GDP numbers by oblast for Ukraine, and my economics are even worse than I'd estimated.  Serednya Slaviya's total GDP is 7.06 billion USD, which is less than the 10 billion I'd taken from Ukraine's total by average.  I can increase defense spending to 3% GDP, and get back to my previous figures.

Ukraine's 2021 national budget was 47.65 billion USD, with defense being 9.6 billion dollars.  If I take Ukraine's defense spending and cut it by GDP to cover just Rivne and Volyn's totals, that gives me a defense budget quite a bit higher than I'd expected but right now Ukraine's got good reason to increase its defense spending.  I suppose I'd do the same, with the national fear that we're next and staring down the Belarussians.  So that comes to a national defense budget of 4.8% GDP, or a total defense spending of 339 million USD.

That does wonders for my procurement budget, pushing it to 135.6 million and improves my choices slightly.  Granted that's only for 2021, and doesn't count the same for every year, but Serednya Slaviya's in a tight position, one could argue.  I've looked into historical defense budgets but the numbers are all over the place; I can't even get agreement on GDP amounts depending on where I look.

So I'm doing better than I initially thought when it comes to procurement and defense budgets, but I'm either going to have to buy cheap or get subsidized purchases.  Cheap means B1 Centauro, but not Freccia; BTR-4 could be doable at 1.8 million and it seems locally buildable.  Buying Chinese saves me some cash, and lets me modernize a larger portion of my force.  I just looked at the latest contract price for Freccia and the damn things run 7.9 million bucks.  Piranha IIIs vary depending on the contract, anywhere from 4 to 6 million each.    Looking at the French, there's that new Griffon APC to complement the Jaguar, but it's running 2.5 million USD per vehicle and the Jaguar at 5 million.  I still want Jaguars for my recon companies, replacing BRDM-2s, but that's a small enough program (only 30 vehicles) that I can eat the cost on it.  LAVs are pretty cheap at 2.5 million each, and the Australians are getting rid of theirs for Boxers, but it comes back to the same question I had with the VAB - why am I trading my worn-out 1980s vehicles for worn-out 1980s vehicles?  Procurement wants something new and fancy and cheap.

I've got about 200 APCs and 100 gun vehicles to buy for the cavalry squadrons, and another 200 or so APCs for the combined-arms battalions.  I'd like to modernize the cavalry first since they're arguably the core of the army.  Whatever I get, I'd like it to have a common family if possible.  And I need at least 100 APCs

So it comes down to why I shouldn't buy Chinese, because they've got the economy of scale going on and can seriously amortize development costs across a platform.
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NightSarge

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #82 on: 17 March 2023, 06:45:03 »
@chanman
I think old new stuff is a more reliabe option than the chinese way i think.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #83 on: 17 March 2023, 06:59:55 »
My thought for the MiG-29s was that a Soviet squadron was based there, and when the USSR dried up it was left behind like Ukraine inheriting Backfire bombers and part of the Soviet nuclear arsenal.  Looking at the Baltic Trio though, for similarly sized Air Forces they're pretty damn small.  Six to eight aircraft each, mostly transport planes with a couple helicopters.  So the MiGs are out, and we're operating a mix of An-2s, An-26s, and Mi-8s that we're keeping airborne with prayers and wherever we can get spare parts from.

I suppose that we're turning over airspace defense to NATO, like the Baltics.  Serednya Slaviya's got some SA-9 Gaskins still floating around, so we're slightly better off than they are, but it still comes down to MANPADS to defend airspace.  Radar stations for surveillance, and I still picture the idea of a couple civilian airstrips having a small military detachment to allow dispersal of aircraft away from the main airbase in time of war.

Aircraft...Say four Mi-8s, four Mi-2s, two Cessna 172 trainers, three An-2s, one An-26 that serves as the presidential transport.  Each aircraft has more than one crew; I've got about 45 pilots in the Air Force based on the American ratio of 24:1.

Russia's still got deep stocks of working older equipment, we're seeing them deployed in Ukraine.  So spare parts and old hardware is definitely available from Russia, though I'm hesitant as hell to rely on them for equipment.  The corruption pandemic in the Russian military means I'd probably be buying empty hulls with all their valuable bits sold off on the black market...

So I found some GDP numbers by oblast for Ukraine, and my economics are even worse than I'd estimated.  Serednya Slaviya's total GDP is 7.06 billion USD, which is less than the 10 billion I'd taken from Ukraine's total by average.  I can increase defense spending to 3% GDP, and get back to my previous figures.

Ukraine's 2021 national budget was 47.65 billion USD, with defense being 9.6 billion dollars.  If I take Ukraine's defense spending and cut it by GDP to cover just Rivne and Volyn's totals, that gives me a defense budget quite a bit higher than I'd expected but right now Ukraine's got good reason to increase its defense spending.  I suppose I'd do the same, with the national fear that we're next and staring down the Belarussians.  So that comes to a national defense budget of 4.8% GDP, or a total defense spending of 339 million USD.

That does wonders for my procurement budget, pushing it to 135.6 million and improves my choices slightly.  Granted that's only for 2021, and doesn't count the same for every year, but Serednya Slaviya's in a tight position, one could argue.  I've looked into historical defense budgets but the numbers are all over the place; I can't even get agreement on GDP amounts depending on where I look.

So I'm doing better than I initially thought when it comes to procurement and defense budgets, but I'm either going to have to buy cheap or get subsidized purchases.  Cheap means B1 Centauro, but not Freccia; BTR-4 could be doable at 1.8 million and it seems locally buildable.  Buying Chinese saves me some cash, and lets me modernize a larger portion of my force.  I just looked at the latest contract price for Freccia and the damn things run 7.9 million bucks.  Piranha IIIs vary depending on the contract, anywhere from 4 to 6 million each.    Looking at the French, there's that new Griffon APC to complement the Jaguar, but it's running 2.5 million USD per vehicle and the Jaguar at 5 million.  I still want Jaguars for my recon companies, replacing BRDM-2s, but that's a small enough program (only 30 vehicles) that I can eat the cost on it.  LAVs are pretty cheap at 2.5 million each, and the Australians are getting rid of theirs for Boxers, but it comes back to the same question I had with the VAB - why am I trading my worn-out 1980s vehicles for worn-out 1980s vehicles?  Procurement wants something new and fancy and cheap.

I've got about 200 APCs and 100 gun vehicles to buy for the cavalry squadrons, and another 200 or so APCs for the combined-arms battalions.  I'd like to modernize the cavalry first since they're arguably the core of the army.  Whatever I get, I'd like it to have a common family if possible.  And I need at least 100 APCs

So it comes down to why I shouldn't buy Chinese, because they've got the economy of scale going on and can seriously amortize development costs across a platform.

Anytime you approach from a position of weakness, there isn't a situation where you will NOT find yourself in over your head with less than you thought you were buying.

IOW CHINA might benefit from amortizing costs, but that doesn't mean the efficiencies of scale are going to work in YOUR favor unless there's an advantage for THEM.

get what I'm saying here?  Regardless of WHO you're sourcing from, they're going to deal for an advantage.  If you THINK you can out-negotiate NORINCO, then you probably think you can out-negotiate General Dynamics.  (Odds are  you're wrong on both counts).

Given where you're at, you don't have anything the Chinese desperately want (or want control over).  This doesn't work out to deals in your favor-meaning you'll pay the top price for their goods, which is equivalent to the bottom price for goods from, say, IMI (Israel), South Africa, Czechosolvakia (who make some fine armaments for the market), or France.

Any one of those others might actually see an advantage in giving you a deal.  (particularly the EU/European outfits, who have a security interest in you being at least a speed-bump against someone getting conqueror's disease in Eastern Europe).

In the ARMS business, national interests DO factor in on credit and pricing-China's big in Africa because Africa has raw materials China needs, they'e big in the Middle East for trade reasons having to do with the flow of goods and services.  Where you're at, there's no advantage for Beijing in selling you good gear at a fair price when they can take your money and give as little as possible....but there might be a few good reasons for wealthier neighbors with arms industries to sell you decent hardware at reasonable rates, if for no other reason than because it makes you a speed-bump when the Russians come looking to re-form their empire (historically, this happens quite a lot and has since the 18th century.)

and a peaceful inclined Russia has that same interest in selling you decent hardware at a reasonable rate, because then, they can use you either diplomatically or militarily to secure their own borders/sphere of influence (see the Russian consternation at the expansion of NATO over the last 30 years.)

Poland, Czech Republic,e tc. are far more likely to sell you decent hardware for their OWN reasons, at reasonable rates, than China.  It's not just 'book prices', here.  It's ALWAYS going to be influenced by shades of national interest on the part of your arms dealer.

the closest anyone since the 1940s has gotten to "We sell to anyone who has the cash" is France.  everyone else either has an ideological motive (soviet union, Eastern Bloc during the cold war) or strategic reason (*you have something they need and enough of it to be a bargaining chip, you're positioned somewhere they consider economically or militarily critical/important for economic or security measures, or both).

This is one reason why the Mirage is so widespread world-wide, the French sold it to anyone with the money, as long as they could pay. 

but that was in the 20th century when France was still raising capital as fast as they could to get out of the mess they were in after 1940, and it caused quite a lot of nasty side effects in terms of prominence and international respect, so they don't DO THAT anymore.

So there's a factor in your shopping you need to consider, and that's who benefits from selling you weapons, and how much benefit are they looking to get out of it after the Cheques clear?
« Last Edit: 17 March 2023, 07:08:45 by Cannonshop »
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #84 on: 17 March 2023, 09:40:05 »
A position of weakness is definitely where I'm coming from strategically.  The only real exportable commodities I have large amounts of are wood and crops, and farming chemicals (fertilizers, etc) production.  The Rivne Plant of Tractor Component Units is moving into the car and bus manufacturing fields, so that's expanding industry, but it's still pretty limited.

Well on the topic of who benefits from Serednya Slaviya's continued existance, Poland is probably highest on the list.  We don't provide much of a buffer state, but do exist to keep the Belarussians and Ukrainians honest when it comes to "conqueror's disease" (I like that term) in Eastern Europe.  China would get an inroad to a new market, and maybe our lumber supply would be of use to them as well as food-chemical production, but not in massive scales that would really interest them that much.  France seems to still have that sell-anywhere mindset, at least as far as Europe is concerned.  Hard currency is always something a government wants.

So the ones most likely to support us are the Poles, who have Patria AMVs made under license for 4 million USD per vehicle, or the French Griffon at 2.5 million per.  The BTR-4 is also an option at 1.8 million, but it's been canceled by several countries for quality control failures and badly made equipment, so I'm hesitant to go in that direction.  Italy is looking to get rid of their Centauros for Centauro IIs, and they probably see us as a speedbump in case of Russian expansionism - which as noted earlier in the thread has been going on for some time even after the fall of the USSR.  Serednya Slaviya's in NATO since 2016, and probably joined the EU in 2020 just to pick a year.

I need at least a hundred APCs; that bridges the gap between the BTR-70s and BTR-80s that made up the 300 APCs of the motor-rifle division and the 400 and a few required by my current organization.  The AMV is amphibious, which is a plus, while the Griffon isn't.  I could probably build Griffons indigenously, since they're built on a civilian truck chassis, while I'd want some help and tech transfers from the Poles or else some free store credit to buy direct, which I could probably get considering the strategic situation.  The AMV does seat twelve troops, which gives me more options in organizing squads, and has the same firepower as the Griffon.  On the other hand, the Griffon shares a lot of components with the EBRC Jaguar, which I'm buying 30 of as well.

So it comes down to Griffon or Patria AMV, with benefits and downsides each way.  The tank destroyer, I suppose I'm pretty much definitively set on buying Centauros the Italians are selling off, and the price there is pretty decent.  It comes down to "the Griffon's less capable, but cheaper and can be made locally, while the AMV is more expensive but does some things I want."

I could axe one of the Combined Arms Infantry Battalions, which would cut my requirement for vehicles down to around 140 for those remaining two BNs.  I'd only need to buy 70 or so APCs to supplement the BTRs, plus around 100 tank destroyers to replace my T-72s in the cavalry units.  That would also let me spread out my personnel a bit more and increase the average battalion size slightly.

As far as buying minis, I can get regular Patria APCs with the remote gun station (but not the IFV model) or Griffon APCs as well.  BTR-80A and BTR-4 minis are also available, though again I'm iffy on buying those - the BTR-80A being Russian and the BTR-4 having its defects mentioned above.

I'll think on this.
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chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #85 on: 17 March 2023, 10:56:32 »
A position of weakness is definitely where I'm coming from strategically.  The only real exportable commodities I have large amounts of are wood and crops, and farming chemicals (fertilizers, etc) production.  The Rivne Plant of Tractor Component Units is moving into the car and bus manufacturing fields, so that's expanding industry, but it's still pretty limited.

Well on the topic of who benefits from Serednya Slaviya's continued existance, Poland is probably highest on the list.  We don't provide much of a buffer state, but do exist to keep the Belarussians and Ukrainians honest when it comes to "conqueror's disease" (I like that term) in Eastern Europe.  China would get an inroad to a new market, and maybe our lumber supply would be of use to them as well as food-chemical production, but not in massive scales that would really interest them that much.  France seems to still have that sell-anywhere mindset, at least as far as Europe is concerned.  Hard currency is always something a government wants.

Serednya Slaviya isn't really an 'in' to a defence market though (China's exports typically go to countries that are unaligned). The only major arms sale they've made to a European country that I can recall are SAMs to Serbia just a year or two ago. I think the last major export blitz they had was the 1980s to both sides of the Iran-Iraq war

Quote
So the ones most likely to support us are the Poles, who have Patria AMVs made under license for 4 million USD per vehicle, or the French Griffon at 2.5 million per.  The BTR-4 is also an option at 1.8 million, but it's been canceled by several countries for quality control failures and badly made equipment, so I'm hesitant to go in that direction.  Italy is looking to get rid of their Centauros for Centauro IIs, and they probably see us as a speedbump in case of Russian expansionism - which as noted earlier in the thread has been going on for some time even after the fall of the USSR.  Serednya Slaviya's in NATO since 2016, and probably joined the EU in 2020 just to pick a year.

I don't think the Italians would view Serednya Slaviy as a speedbump to Russian expansion. Russia would have to cross multiple NATO borders to reach Italy.

Quote
I need at least a hundred APCs; that bridges the gap between the BTR-70s and BTR-80s that made up the 300 APCs of the motor-rifle division and the 400 and a few required by my current organization.  The AMV is amphibious, which is a plus, while the Griffon isn't.  I could probably build Griffons indigenously, since they're built on a civilian truck chassis, while I'd want some help and tech transfers from the Poles or else some free store credit to buy direct, which I could probably get considering the strategic situation.  The AMV does seat twelve troops, which gives me more options in organizing squads, and has the same firepower as the Griffon.  On the other hand, the Griffon shares a lot of components with the EBRC Jaguar, which I'm buying 30 of as well.

So it comes down to Griffon or Patria AMV, with benefits and downsides each way.  The tank destroyer, I suppose I'm pretty much definitively set on buying Centauros the Italians are selling off, and the price there is pretty decent.  It comes down to "the Griffon's less capable, but cheaper and can be made locally, while the AMV is more expensive but does some things I want."

I could axe one of the Combined Arms Infantry Battalions, which would cut my requirement for vehicles down to around 140 for those remaining two BNs.  I'd only need to buy 70 or so APCs to supplement the BTRs, plus around 100 tank destroyers to replace my T-72s in the cavalry units.  That would also let me spread out my personnel a bit more and increase the average battalion size slightly.

As far as buying minis, I can get regular Patria APCs with the remote gun station (but not the IFV model) or Griffon APCs as well.  BTR-80A and BTR-4 minis are also available, though again I'm iffy on buying those - the BTR-80A being Russian and the BTR-4 having its defects mentioned above.

I'll think on this.

I think analogous sized countries include Georgia, Croatia, and Slovenia. Which means if you want heavy AFVs, you better make sure you grab them during the break-up of the USSR. You might look into how those countries are recapitalizing their fleets (if ever). Croatia got donated Bradleys but there is a lot of old gear in use in general. Sometimes you just have to shape your doctrine around the kit you can afford to get.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #86 on: 17 March 2023, 16:36:13 »
Analagous sized countries, certainly, but they also have nine times the GDP of Serednya Slaviya.  This place is poor indeed; I must have picked the hoboest part of Europe to work with.  I'm not kidding when I say the GDP of Serednya Slaviya is only 7.06 billion USD, with an annual per-capita of only 3,244 USD based on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnneIzTSAXg this data.

Georgia at least managed to build a defense industry in-country, with help from Israel and Poland.  Croatia's in my position of limited funding to buy needed military hardware, but they're getting Patria AMV and PzH 2000 from somewhere on the cheap.  Slovenia went the AMV route as well, though there was a big scandal and orders were cut back to only 30 vehicles.

China meanwhile is a total importer when it comes to European weapons: "Unlike most other regions, where China is a net exporter of arms, Europe presents a different story. More than 99 percent of China's total arms imports (13.7 billion TIV) come from Europe, while it exports a paltry 26 million TIV of its own weapons to the continent."  So they have no selling market at all in the continent, while their imports are almost exclusively European.  Kind of an interesting fact there.

I'm getting more and more tempted to scratch the combined-arms battalions from the Heavy Brigade entirely, and just make them two light infantry battalions - that'd leave just my three cavalry squadrons with mechanized troops.  That'd significantly ease my vehicle burden, with only 200 APCs to buy and 100 tank-equivalents.  Matter of fact, I'm strongly tempted; that'd give me six battalions of light infantry across all three brigades and about 70 APCs and 35 tanks per each cavalry squadron.

On that note, what's the down side of having mostly light infantry making up the military?

If I do go the route of cutting my mechanized infantry and armor companies, then what vehicles are left over can be traded out easily enough.  That poses a question - should I keep T-72s in the army and modernize them to PT-91 status, or should I give up a heavy armor vehicle to modernize to Centauros and their significantly higher speed and significantly lighter weight?  I'm not saying the tank is dead, not one bit; I'm just wondering if it's of benefit for Serednya Slaviya's particular status to replace something that I can't maintain and modernize without foreign assistance with something that I can at least maintain if not build in-house.

I suppose the optimum solution is two squadrons with 70 PT-91s, and one squadrons with 35 Centauros; that'd only cost 56 million USD and leaves me with at least some heavy tank capability.  The question of APCs still remains; I suppose I'll go with Patria AMVs through Poland and only modernize one of the squadrons.  That'll cost 280 million, but it's spreadable over time, and can be a continuing purchase with more orders to come in the future.  Maybe the contracts are being signed for enough vehicles to convert a second brigade's cavalry squadron to the new hardware.

The Recon Companies in each brigade get PT-91s and ten EBRC Jaguars each, for another 150 million there, but I'm making damn sure I'm getting good battlefield intel through them.

Shame the Centauros aren't amphibious like the Patria AMV is.

Okay, so squadronwise I have two with PT-91s and BTR-80s and one with Centauros and Patria AMVs.  That's the mobile power of my army in those three squadrons, especially if I convert the three CA BNs to two light infantry.  I find myself okay with that.  So why shouldn't I?

I'm also going to license VBL production and build those in-house; if there's any kind of armored vehicle that Serednya Slaviya's capable of building on it's own it's going to be a VBL...maybe I can get cheap machine guns from the Americans and keep the .50s on them. 

EDIT: Note to self, you'll need to reorganize the infantry component of the cavalry platoon to account for the 7-seat BTR-80 and 12-seat Patria AMV.  Do that later.
« Last Edit: 17 March 2023, 17:02:44 by ANS Kamas P81 »
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chanman

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #87 on: 17 March 2023, 17:34:12 »
Tongue-in-cheek here, but what about making it a fast/light force based on commercial light truck chassis modified for off-road performance? Swing a corporate sponsorship. The first army to be built Ford Tough (TM). Being poor and industrious makes it a good place to set up factory making basic vehicles. You've seen videos of the Ukrainian raiders using humvees as fast attack vehicles, right?

It would be a cross between the Toyota war or SAS LRDG and the PLA's new light brigades (combined arms mechanized formations based around something kind of like a JLTV).

Be cheap, get technical. A T-72 is equally unhappy whether the TOW missile that hits it is from a hull-down Bradley or a Ford Ranger parked behind a bush.

Daryk

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #88 on: 17 March 2023, 17:46:45 »
Chanman is not wrong, and 4.8% of GDP is a VERY happy NATO number...   8)

NightSarge

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Re: Creating Serednya Slaviya's military, part the second
« Reply #89 on: 18 March 2023, 06:22:38 »
He is right indeed.
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