Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 310292 times)

GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #330 on: 27 April 2016, 19:24:46 »
You round before doing the check for 1.  Without hear, the long range would be 4.  With heat, it would be 3.  Thus it gets OVL.

...That's not how I've been reading the errata.  Rounding has been done after determining final modified damage values, and the difference between the two values must exceed "1" in order to receive an Overheat Value [at any range].  Otherwise, no Overheat?

Plus-- the "Hellbringer (Loki) Prime" should not be getting an OVL value of 3 ...it only hits with the 2 ERPPCs at that range.  Max Damage at Long should be 4, and not 5.
***EDIT***(It *should* have an OV3 from its other weapon systems at Short and Medium Ranges; just not a different value and bonus damage at Long Range)
« Last Edit: 27 April 2016, 19:43:33 by GoldBishop »
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #331 on: 27 April 2016, 19:41:31 »
I wrote the rule, so I know the intent.  If you think there's a better way to word it, I'm open to exceptions.  But as for the intent, I'm certain on that one.

OV is a single value.  It's based on medium range.  If a unit has OVL, it uses the OV value as calculated by the medium range.
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #332 on: 27 April 2016, 20:12:50 »
I wrote the rule, so I know the intent.  If you think there's a better way to word it, I'm open to exceptions.  But as for the intent, I'm certain on that one.

OV is a single value.  It's based on medium range.  If a unit has OVL, it uses the OV value as calculated by the medium range.

I apologize in advance if you felt offended - it was not my intent (nor will it ever be).

I believe the initial calculation on the MUL was done pre-errata as indicated, and that, now that we are calculating Long-Range Overheat differently and separately, the errata takes precedence and the values on the MUL should be changed.  (reasons posted in my initial post upthread).

As for how *I* would reword/calculate for Modified Heat? ...Where is the best place to post this (I know this is not the thread)  **edit: figured it out**
« Last Edit: 28 April 2016, 00:46:34 by GoldBishop »
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #333 on: 27 April 2016, 20:31:34 »
The stats are post errata.  Without heat, it would do 4 damage at long range.  With heat, it does 3.  This it gets long range 3 and OVL.  There is no OVL value.  There is only an OV.  It's calculated at medium range.  OV is 3.
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Scotty

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #334 on: 27 April 2016, 21:34:17 »
GoldBishop:  The part where you check for missing damage happens after all rounding.

Without heat: 4 damage at long range.
With heat: 3 damage at long range.

There is a difference between those numbers, therefore the unit gets OVL.
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #335 on: 27 April 2016, 21:37:20 »
Currently, the Long Range value of my focus (Hellbringer-Prime)is "2"... which is 2 points below the potential/maximum damage value we have both just calculated (as "4")

Regardless of how we reached our values, with OV3 coming from Medium range affecting the OVL, the unit card is still sporting the wrong value:
Long Range: 2, +3 OV = 5 potential max damage.

The Hellbringer-Prime needs to be updated.  The question is: how?  I'll PM you my Heat Calc info instead of hashing things out here.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #336 on: 27 April 2016, 21:50:30 »
I understand what your issue is, but the way you want it to work is not how it works, and not something I (or anybody else on the MUL team) can change.  OV is a single value based on medium range.  The long range damage values don't affect the OV value.  The decision was made that OV would be a single value, and the Hellbringer being able to get OV3 at long range with its OVL was deemed acceptable collateral damage. 
Your welcome to propose/discuss other opinions or house rules elsewhere in the forums, but this isn't a MUL issue.
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #337 on: 27 April 2016, 21:51:43 »
GoldBishop:  The part where you check for missing damage happens after all rounding.

Without heat: 4 damage at long range.
With heat: 3 damage at long range.

There is a difference between those numbers, therefore the unit gets OVL.

See, that's just it.  If I'm reading the Errata(s) right, there is No Rounding until the values are compared/attained.
Therefore, I get the following...
. Without Heat: Unmodified Damage = 3.3   [Do Not Round]
. With Heat: Modified Damage = 2.985  [Do Not Round]
. Difference = 0.314, which is < 1  [Disqualified from OVL]
. Long Range Damage = UnmodifiedDamage (Round Up), or 3.3 ~ 4

What makes the most sense to me is that "rounding" comes when determining final values... .  I'm really not trying to stir the pot here, guys... but there's no way my Loki Prime deals 5 damage at Long. 

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #338 on: 27 April 2016, 21:53:10 »
See, that's just it.  If I'm reading the Errata(s) right

You're not.  nckestrel wrote it and has already said that in this thread.
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #339 on: 27 April 2016, 22:00:31 »
I'm taking it to PM.  Sorry for the fuss, fellas.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #340 on: 27 April 2016, 22:10:38 »
I'm taking it to PM.  Sorry for the fuss, fellas.

Please don't.  It's my responsibility to ensure that errata is readily understood by readers.  If it's unclear, it needs to be clarified, regardless of original intent.

I'll take a look at the wording and see if we can sharpen it.
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #341 on: 27 April 2016, 22:29:16 »
As Xotl said, no need to apologize.  We're just trying to clarify where the issue is.  It's not the Hellbringer, it's as intended.  If the wording of the OVL calculation isn't clear enough, that can be worked on.  (The conversion process is a pain to keep everything clear).
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #342 on: 28 April 2016, 00:13:29 »
I don't like stepping on toes - and it seemed like I was doing that (with the defensive posts countering and counter-countering).  I have full confidence we're all on the same side of trying to find balance and fairness.  I'm also seeing that this discussion doesn't belong on the errata thread, respectfully.
...

After writing a heap (still pending), I think I might have found something... so, please... forgive me for the long post

I have NOT been Rounding the "initial Unmodified Damage" 
I have not seen an instruction to perform such immediate rounding (as of 11pm CST, 27 April 2016). (posting for clarity, not trying to be snide) ...the values I have calculated (and saved) are as raw numbers.

The Errata says to "use the Unmodified Damage value" to find the Heat Modified Value. I believe this is where the errors are popping up on my end.

For my Example: the Hellbringer (Prime) has a Long-Range unmodified damage value of 3.3 (2 ERPPCs = 3.0 damage, x1.1 for Targeting Computer)  Its heat at this range is 33 (30 weapon, 1 AMS, 2 Movement)
With only 13 DHS to dissipate the heat, I have 26 Disp, or a Long Range Heat Modifier = 26/(33-4) or 0.89655~

Currently, the Hellbringer's Unmodified Long Range Damage is "3.3".  I have not rounded this value to 4 because it is not the Final Damage Value (...yet!).

The way it has been explained to me (in the previous posts), I should be Rounding the initial value (3.3), and then multiply the base un-rounded value (3.3) to find the Heat-Modified Value - then take the difference as the Overheat Value (if any):
3.3 -> 4  [new Unmodified Damage]
3.3 x 0.89655 = 2.95862~ (Heat Modified)
4 - 2.95862 = 1.04138
...in my eyes, this is what you guys are telling me.  "Long Range Damage" = 3 , "OVL" = Yes, (1) (for now at Long)

I believe the "error" I'm experiencing... is in clarity of the "un-Rounded"  Shouldn't we be using the same base number when applying the Heat Modifier?
In this example, the difference is a staggering 0.7...

Calculating as explained to me first, with a twist: Rounding all Values immediately, then multiplying and Round again the values at Range by the Heat Modifier:
3.3 -> 4                            [rounding Unmodified Damage Value]
4 x 0.89655 = 3.58262    [Multiplying Rounded Unmodified Damage Value by Heat Modifier]
4 - 3.58262 = 0.41738    [Difference from Unmodified and Modified]
...Since 0.41738 is less than 1, (per the errata)...
   "Long Range Damage" = 4
   "OVL" = "No"

Seems reasonable.  Still dealing 4 damage at long, so no real issue.

Now... if I were to go back to how I was doing it ...without rounding:
3.3 x 0.89655 = 2.95862~       [Unmodified Long Range Damage]
3.3 - 2.95862 = 0.341~           [Difference between the Unmodified and Modified]
...Again, this value is less than 1, (per the errata) so now that the "Unmodified" value becomes the Long Range Damage value, it's time to round up (nearest whole):
  "Long Range Damage" = 3.3 -> 4,
  "OVL = No"


...Granted, I have not tested this method on other units - just the Loki so far - I believe my method provides values "closer" to the feel of their Classic/TotalWarfare counterparts.  The Hellbringer Prime doesn't really overheat that much in Classic, so there's little reason (in my opinion) that it should get to deal a whooping 50 damage in AlphaStrike when it's only capable of 30; leaving it "as is" just felt wrong so I made it my mission to try and fix it. (and yes, this is an opinion.  Sorry.  Again.)

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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #343 on: 28 April 2016, 05:52:29 »
Unmodified in the OVL calculation is supposed to be meaning unmodified by heat.  But it should go through the entire rest of the process to come up with a final damage value, then compare to the results with heat modification.
So perhaps "non-heat modified final damage value" and "heat modified final damage value" should be the wording of what we are comparing to check for OVL?
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #344 on: 28 April 2016, 10:51:57 »
...
So perhaps "non-heat modified final damage value" and "heat modified final damage value" should be the wording of what we are comparing to check for OVL?

No.  "non-heat final damage value", sounds too ...final... to me.

I think it should instead be "Initial Damage Value" (after all, we just finished summing damage at a particular range bracket)

However... shouldn't we wait to round until after we modify for heat?

Otherwise, we are just comparing a rounded (up) value to it's non-rounded value... which seems awfully more abstract than normal.
{in my example above... the difference between 3.3 and 4 is 0.7... which is more than enough to "push" a smaller value over the threshold into Overheat territory}
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #345 on: 28 April 2016, 11:00:48 »
final damage value is after rounding.  That's the point of using that term.  It's final.

Why final?  Because it's the results that matters.  If the hypothetical unit's long range damage is not reduced by heat (the one that it will actually use in the game), then it does not get OVL.  You can't not be penalized by heat and get the OVL.  The only way to know if it's penalized by its heat (at long range), is to do the entire calculation and arrive at the final values for long range, without heat modification and with heat modification.  If there is a difference in what the final value would be, then you get OVL. 

Hellbringer, ignoring heat, would be a 4 at long range.  Hellbringer, with heat, would be a 3.  So it is penalized by its heat, so it gets OVL. Intermediate steps are meaningless, only what the final damage values would be have any meaning. for example, if it were 4.0 without heat and rounding to the final damage value, and 3.1 with heat, that's a 0.9 difference.   It doesn't matter, because the actual result is 4 and 4.  My example, regardless of intermediate steps, does not have it's actual AS stats affected by the heat.  So it can't have OVL.

EDIT: And a reminder, we're trying to figure out how to make the wording more clear on what it is (the current intent), not change it to something else (different intent).  If you want to discuss your opinion on what it should be, that discussion should go elsewhere. 
« Last Edit: 28 April 2016, 11:03:56 by nckestrel »
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GoldBishop

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #346 on: 28 April 2016, 13:00:13 »
Quote from: AlphaStrike Companion p.115, w/ Errata
Starting at the 3rd paragraph
To begin, find the unit’s maximum heat output. This is the heat generated by firing all weapons, including defensive equipment such as anti-missile systems, and the special-case heat rules described further below. ’Mech units must also add the maximum heat generation possible for their most heat-intensive movement mode. This added movement heat is +2 if the unit is a BattleMech that lacks jump jets, or +1 per 2 inches of jumping Move if the unit is a BattleMech or IndustrialMech that has jump jets (to a minimum of +3 heat for such jumping units). None of the other heat-tracking units covered by these rules (including nonjumping IndustrialMechs) add heat for their movement actions.
   Next, determine the unit’s heat dissipation rate by adding up all of the heat modifiers shown in the Heat Dissipation Table. Note that the heat modifiers for heat sinks and coolant pods are applied for each sink or pod the unit mounts, while the heat modifiers for other special equipment like the partial wing, radical heat sink system, and RISC the emergency coolant system apply only once. For example, a unit with 10 double heat sinks and a coolant pod would have a heat dissipation rate of –21 ([10 double heat sinks x –2] –1 [coolant pod] = –21).

No Rounding indicated.

Quote from: Current errata
**Long-Range Weapons: The above heat-modification process applies to all heat-generating units for attacks made in the Short and Medium range brackets. If the unit can deliver damage at Long range (or better), a separate Long-range heat output must also be calculated. This follows the standard rules for calculating a unit's heat output, except that the only weapons included are those with a Long-range damage value.
     Calculate the unit's Long-range damage value without modifying for heat, and then calculate its Long-range damage value modified using the above Long-range heat output.  If, after all rounding is applied, the heat-modified Long-range damage is lower than the unmodified Long-range damage by at least 1 point, then the unit receives the OVL (Overheat Long) special ability.  This calculation is used solely to check if the unit qualifies for the OVL special ability.  If it does qualify, the unit's actual Long-range damage value is calculated by modifying for heat using the exact same procedure and unit heat output as for the Short and Long range brackets, including weapon heat generated by weapons that cannot reach Long range.
     If the unit does not qualify for OVL, its Long-range damage value is unmodified by heat and the full damage value is used.**
[emphasis added for clarity]

Rounding indicated.

Which one is correct?  and should it apply to ALL ranges (not just Long).
« Last Edit: 28 April 2016, 13:11:19 by GoldBishop »
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nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #347 on: 28 April 2016, 13:32:04 »
All OV and OVL checks should be using final values.  As final as final there is.  (I'm being silly, but I'm mocking the complexity of AS conversions and its use of "final" for various steps when its not really final).  The intent is you must do all the work to a final damage value.  You can't stop part way and do the comparison then.
 
p116, Determining Final Damage Values.
This defines what a Final Damage Value is.  It's after the rounding to a whole number. If you don't have a whole number, you don't have a final damage value.  That's why I suggested changing the wording to final damage values, because they have a definition, and it's after rounding.
so p115, starting at 3rd paragraph is talking pre-final damage values.  It doesn't say anything OV.  that's why it doesn't say anything about rounding. That comes later (p116).

the errata for p115 Long-Range Weapons, already specifies after all rounding, for the OVL check.  For OV and OVL checks, you need to have finished the entire calcuation(s).

p116, Calculating Overheat Value
"To find a unit’s Overheat Value, compare its maximum Alpha Strike damage at Medium range before and after it has been adjusted for heat using these rules."
This should also mention final damage values.

And then under that for Long-Range Weapons
"if this same comparison."  and then this would be referencing final damage values as well.
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Wraithcannon

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #348 on: 28 April 2016, 16:09:59 »
This discussion makes me wonder whether or not you guys could talk to Rick Raisley about including Alpha Strike stats in his Heavy Metal programs?

The reason I ask is because he did make calculations for Battleforce 2 integral to the software, so the work might already be halfway completed.

Also, yay or nay on SRM infantry being able to carry inferno munitions in AS? If so, how do we note that on the card?

Thanks
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #349 on: 28 April 2016, 18:46:54 »
The MUL Force Builder doesn't seem to be taking into account skill increases.  All of my cards are printing as the default 4, regardless of how I alter the skills in the list.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #350 on: 05 May 2016, 21:52:44 »
Scapha "I" Variant

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6667/scapha-hovertank-i
[TRO3145_RotS p.21]

This unit should also have the "TAG" Special (thanks to it's C3M)

However, as this equipment is listed to be mounted in a "Body" location, it should not be added to the turret "TUR" specials.


Xotl: corrected, thanks.
« Last Edit: 31 May 2016, 14:16:21 by Xotl »
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #351 on: 07 May 2016, 15:58:08 »
First of all I would like to say a big thank you to the MUL guys for publishing the availability lists for TR3145RoTS!

Now for the errata business .

The Quirinius and the Celerity 04-R and 05-X don't have  faction availability

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #352 on: 07 May 2016, 18:18:06 »
That is intentional for the moment. They would be Comstar. I'm just trying to avoid break several internal processes until we are closer to having complete data in for the later eras.


Sorry for the inconvenience.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #353 on: 07 May 2016, 20:07:56 »
The Galleon 200 (RL) is listed as a Sniper despite doing exactly zero damage at Long range.  And... somehow has TUR1/0*/- despite having a flat 0 (without the star) at Medium.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #354 on: 07 May 2016, 23:11:58 »
First of all I would like to say a big thank you to the MUL guys for publishing the availability lists for TR3145RoTS!

This makes me think I should ask, would it be possible for you to post an announcement on the page's news blurb whenever you add a new source to the MUL?

Now that I've gone and printed a card of every variant of every unit I own, I'd like to be informed when new variants are added, so that I can keep my cards current.

It would also help us errata checkers to know when there are a fresh bunch of files to go over.

Thanks

P.S. Still wondering about those inferno SRM infantry for AS.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #355 on: 08 May 2016, 10:59:51 »
That depends upon what you want. Units get added in different stages. Lately I have been adding the base info when I finally get the book. Someone else has been doing the AS stats sometime later.

When we do faction data for a new era, we will make a big announcement. Minor updates for faction data probably aren't worth filling the new feed that the important stuff gets lost in a wall of words.

Wouldn't inferno infantry just be srm infantry that use alternative ammo?

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #356 on: 08 May 2016, 11:03:20 »
Wouldn't inferno infantry just be srm infantry that use alternative ammo?

No SRM special on SRM infantry :(

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #357 on: 08 May 2016, 11:08:49 »
I guess it didn't make the threshold which means heat probably wouldn't make it either.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #358 on: 08 May 2016, 11:18:10 »
I suppose you could create custom cards and give the HT1/1 ability.  Flamer infantry got the HT special afterall in the conversion process.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread II - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #359 on: 08 May 2016, 15:49:01 »
That depends upon what you want. Units get added in different stages. Lately I have been adding the base info when I finally get the book. Someone else has been doing the AS stats sometime later.

What I would want would be once all the units from a new source are added, say Operational Turning Points: Alshain or Record Sheets 3175: Ununabridged, a simple notice is put up on the news blurb so that we see it when we go to the front page.

That way we can go to the "sources" tab, look at the units, and make cards or point out corrections.

And if the SRM infantry can do 1 damage, shouldn't they be able to do 1 HT? Doesn't make much sense otherwise.

« Last Edit: 08 May 2016, 15:58:19 by Wraithcannon »
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