Author Topic: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor  (Read 23203 times)

sillybrit

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Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« on: 24 September 2012, 22:33:48 »
Ironhold Assault Battle Armor - Technical Readout 3085 page 131



     The Ironhold is Clan Jade Falcon's late entry to the world of Assault Battle Armor, which effectively owes its existence to another Jade Falcon contribution to armored infantry warfare, the incomparable Anti-Personnel Gauss Rifle. When first introduced, the Ironhold was a solid performer, but its second generation model is an absolute monster, that individually can outshoot some 'Mechs.

     jymset: In this article, I'll have the pleasant duty inserting comments from the designer's side. This week's articles feature the two contributions I was graciously allowed to make by 3085's product developer, the inimitable Welshman. And unlike the Thunderbird, the Ironhold was not tied to any DA parameters, so I was free to make it my baby.

     Published in Technical Readout 3085 and named after the Falcon's lost capital in the Homeworlds, the Ironhold is the result of a project to match the Assault suits produced by other Clans and the Inner Sphere powers, while retaining (in the original variant) the mobility beloved and demanded by Falcon Warriors. In Jade Falcon eyes, and perhaps in earlier unseen prototypes, previous attempts to balance the speed, armor and firepower of Assault designs had been found lacking. As is often the case, a technological breakthrough provided the answer, when Falcon Scientists developed the AP Gauss Rifle in 3069, a weapon that combined good range and damage for Battle Armor in a lightweight, compact package.

     First fielded in 3077, the Ironhold had a somewhat unusual development process. Codenamed Project Ferrum, the design phase itself began in the early 3070s and proceeded quickly, in part due to a Trinary of Elementals from Third Falcon Talon Cluster being assigned to assist the Jade Falcon Technicians with the testing. The Clan then sat on the resulting design for a number of years until they were finally ready to begin full scale production, rather than deploy the suit earlier, but in dribs and drabs. No doubt the chaos of the early days of the Jihad and the War of Reaving had a big influence on this decision, although the result was that the Ironhold missed a lot of the fight against the Blakists.

     jymset: The naming process itself was not an easy one. As a general rule of thumb, I think the name of a unit is extremely important. It almost represents a 4th major parameter next to fluff, stats, and illustration. For the Ironhold, I wanted an elemental name, similar to the second and even some third-generation Clan suits. As I'd fixed my sights on a metal elemental, I slapped it with the placeholder Ironhold; after all, this was to be a Falcon design. While writing it, two things happened: I found no satisfactory metal elemental name, and I started to be aware of the true implications of the Reaving storyline. And suddenly, the name Ironhold became perfect for the final product. "Project Ferrum" was a nod to the fact that the name was not only about the planet, but about the element, too.

     The outcome of the project proves the wisdom of Gamma Galaxy Commander Amelia Icaza's decision to assign the Trinary of Elementals to help develop the ideal balance of mobility, protection and firepower. Starting with the mobility first, the original Ironhold variant, also known as the Standard, has the default ground speed of 10.8 kph or one Movement Point, but makes up for that by the installation of jump jets. Able to lift the Ironhold sixty meters or two hexes every leap, that's not quite enough to generate a Target Movement Modifier for distance moved, although the suit will obviously get the +1 hit modifier for being a jumping target. The Ironhold will still struggle with some terrain features, but it's enough to allow the suit to outmaneuver the likes of the Kanazuchi or Hauberk. The Standard could have been optimized by using a Jump Booster instead of the second jump jet to achieve the same overall capability for less mass, but that's something of a min/maxing exploit I'd more expect to see in a custom design than a canon suit.

     jymset: Exactly. The basic Ironhold is already a relatively competitive design, anyway. Min/maxing is not an option on canon designs. At least in the sense that design options are used in ways that were originally not intended. In short - using a jump booster for that 2nd movement was never an option. And yes, the possibility of it was something that the 3085 project team was aware of.

     While not maximized, the Ironhold's armor in a solid sixteen points, allowing it to pass the Assault test and soak up a 'Mech-scale Gauss Rifle hit. There's not really much that can be said about the protection, other than noting that like most Assault suits, the Ironhold needs its heavy armor, due to the limited ability to generate Target Movement Modifiers. When able to use its jump capability, the Ironhold Standard will typically suffer fewer hits than a Golem Standard or Warg, helping keep the suit in the fight for longer. Of course, the Standard does suffer the weakness shared by most Battle Armor, and that's the vulnerability to Infernos, that can kill even the most heavily armored of suits with a mere trio of hits, in effect killing them with just six points of damage. Compared to the seventeen points required to destroy an Ironhold with standard weaponry, it's understandable why smart opponents will break out the napalm.

     jymset: At the assault class, jump jets eat so much weight, that between them and the hugely heavy chassis all weight savings evaporate. The important design option then is to go with at least 15 pts of armour (as sillybrit comments on in a second), which is a considerable weight even with Clan armour, and though Fire-Resistant does not weigh so much more, there was absolutely no place on the basic suit for it, if the all-important threshold was to be retained.

     For an Assault suit, all the armor and speed in the world matters little if the design doesn't bring the heavy iron to the fight, and overall the Ironhold Standard does deliver. Twin AP Gauss Rifles provide a reach that many suits lack, or can only match while their missile load lasts, while a Point can inflict as much damage with their guns as a Point of Rogue Bears can with their SRM3s. Of course, the Gauss Rifles can't fire Infernos, but they make up for that with their extra damage against conventional infantry and the unlimited ammo in BattleTech scenarios. To be brutally honest, this level of firepower is a little low against armored targets: the salvo from a Point delivers fewer hits than a Point armed with SRM3s, so that means less crit chances against vehicles, and like the missiles it means that on average the twin Gauss will not inflict a Piloting roll on 'Mechs. Against other Battle Armor, the Ironhold Standard will be a dangerous foe, and conventional infantry really should think about running the other way when they spot one.

     jymset: This design really would not have happened without the AP Gauss. Thankfully, the weapon newly existed, needed to be showcased on a BA, and the factions of weapon and suit matched up. The first part of the fluff text is a translation of parameters that actually existed; the Ironhold is all about the weapon it fields.

     The Standard is a good Assault suit, and thankfully avoids wasting mass on its manipulators, but is far from perfect. As noted above, it could have saved itself 125kg by exploiting Jump Boosters, but the biggest issue for me is the whole concept of a mobile Assault. Dropping to the Heavy class adds Mechanized Battle Armor capability and also frees up 100kg for the cost of two points of armor, which would be enough to add a SRM5(OS), for example, giving a powerful alpha strike. Of course, if you really need a mobile suit capable of withstanding a Gauss Rifle or Clan ER PPC hit, then you have to use an Assault chassis, accepting the inefficiency for the desired armor capacity. The Warriors from Clan Jade Falcon obviously were content to accept that tradeoff, at least in the first incarnation of the Ironhold, but it seems that they were also willing to learn just how Assaults should be designed and used. Mobility is all well and good, but the niche for Assault suits is armor and weapon payload, and the second variant delivers both and then some.

     Introduced in 3082, the Ironhold Fire adds another of the technologies that has become a Jade Falcon signature, switching from the standard armor composites to Fire Resistant materials. This alone is a superb change, because it eliminates the vulnerability to cheap kills from Infernos, meaning that an opponent actually has to inflict the full seventeen points of damage to destroy a Fire. The Technical Readout says that the added bulk of the Fire Resistant armor forced the removal of the jump jets, but really the main reason is the doubling of the firepower.

     jymset: Funny how it goes. The seed for the Fire-Resistant theme was sown by 3075's Jade Falcon variant of the Afreet. It was something to latch on to and 3085 did well to develop it. Without this theme, the Ironhold Fire may never have happened.

     Before the publication of Technical Readout 3085, many custom suits had appeared with multiple AP Gauss Rifles, and in my playing groups such designs were considered somewhat cheesy, reserved for custom-only games. When the Ironhold Fire appeared with its quad array of Gauss Rifles, jaws dropped, strong men fainted and women cursed. That level of firepower is worth repeating: four AP Gauss Rifles. One. Two. Three. Four! What that means is that a Point of Ironhold Fires is capable of slamming you with an average of thirty-six points of damage per Turn, every Turn, which is more than the spike damage for many designs! Enemy infantry, both armored and otherwise, simply melt away, while tank crews have to face the prospect of an average of twelve crit chances if all guns hit, and Mechwarriors know that there's a Piloting roll in their future when a Point of Ironhold Fire's lock them in their sights.

     jymset: Uh yeah. What was I saying about Min/maxing before? Well, this variant does follow a rationale. I already had a design at the ready when being tasked with the Ironhold, featuring dual AP Gauss and LRMs. The Ironhold needed to jump, so between this requirement and the story developed above, the missiles needed to go. And when it was time to go flesh out the Fire variant, the story had entrenched itself: why would they mess with a hugely successful ingredient? They wouldn't!

     A more candid point of trivia is that in its first incarnation, the Fire Ironhold featured a second variant that dabbled with Basic Stealth. This was discarded because it did not fit a unifying theme, and it broached an area of Clan design that was deliberately decided against for line units at that time. Instead, it went on to be a story told by the Hybrid Rogue Bear.


     Again, there's still room for improvement, such as with Detachable Weapon Packs, but it's somewhat churlish to say so given the performance of the Fire. Obviously, with the loss of the jump jets, the suit is less capable of navigating rough terrain and its cross country speed is halved when forced to operate independently. Once on the battlefield, the lack of hit modifier from the movement mode does mean that the Ironhold Fire will suffer more hits overall, partly offsetting its invulnerability to Infernos. Personally, I think the benefits outweigh the losses, with the doubled firepower able to compensate for the lowered ability to dodge incoming fire against many opponents. The Ironhold Fire does have to rely more upon APC transports if it's to be anything more than a barely mobile defensive bunker, and unfortunately the Falcons are limited in that regard, especially if you use the optional rules that use actual suit mass rather than a default of one ton each to track cargo requirements.

     In some ways the Ironhold is so simple and - more so in the case of the Fire variant - so good that it's hard to write more about it. It is what it is; a large chunk of armor with plenty of dakka, that you had better hope you can outshoot before it kills you or you run away. There's typically little subtlety to Ironhold usage; it doesn't even need to hide as much as other suits and the nature of its armament means that it can engage any target with aplomb, with a reach that forces longer-ranged opponents to either accept lowered accuracy or to get into range of return fire. For some unit types, that return fire can quickly, even instantly, be fatal, and really the best way to deal with Ironholds is to use Area Effect weaponry and plenty of it. Shooting the hex rather than the Point eliminates the hit modifiers Battle Armor use to survive and the multi-target capability damages every suit in the Point equally.

     While undoubtedly a favorite with many players, as sometimes seems to happen with such high performance canon designs, I also know players who have turned away from the Ironhold, deeming it too good and lacking the flaws that make for interesting play in their eyes. The relative newness of the design, missing the majority of the Jihad, doesn't help much either, nor does the fact that it's limited to just the Jade Falcons. According to the Master Unit List, the Falcons are the only Clan with any real access to the design all the way through to the Dark Age, and really they'd have to be insane to let anybody else share the Ironhold, at least not without some major concessions in return.

     The future for the Ironhold is bright, even if the Falcons halt development of any further variants. The chassis, particularly the Fire version, has plenty of scope for changes, whether leaving the suit as a gunboat or switching to missiles for their superior alpha strike capability, such as with the superb Golem Support, but in many ways it would be variety for variety's sake. Barring perhaps an urban combat specialist with increased ground speed or adding a longer ranged weapon system such as LRMs, the two existing variants together already cover the Falcon's needs for an Assault suit. Tough and powerful, admired and feared, the Ironhold rightfully sits alongside the Elemental at the pinnacle of Battle Armor design.

Next up:
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« Last Edit: 25 September 2012, 00:48:50 by sillybrit »

Trajan Helmer

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #1 on: 25 September 2012, 02:59:04 »
*smirks* Falcons have no need for subtlety.   The Ironhold is excellent for making many things howl. Superb write-up, Sillybrit.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #2 on: 25 September 2012, 10:00:28 »
While I have yet to field this suit, I love it already, looking forward to fielding mixed Ironhold Stars, built around a core of Fires, with 2-3 Points of Standards to guard against flankers.

My only real problem with this suit is doctrinal rather than design. Even though the Falcons are finally starting to dabble in incorporating real vehicle units in their touman, I still don't see them incorporating noticeable APC support in their frontline forces(second-line is a different matter). A player wanting to field Ironholds in a frontline unit may find themselves forced into a defensive deployment, or using risky air drops to forward-deploy their suits, lest these powerful(and expensive) units simply get left behind, or shuffled off to a secondline cluster. I'm working on reconciling the need to transport the Ironhold with the pigheaded traditionalism of Clan Jade Falcon. Got a few ideas, but not many just yet.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #3 on: 25 September 2012, 11:12:03 »
Yeah, the Falcons really need to get some Anhur (BA)s from the Horses. A Supernova with ten of those and a Star each of Fironholds, Elemental (Fire)s, and Salamanders would be about perfect. Start a few fires to give yourself smoke cover and wreak havoc with complete immunity to the flames.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #4 on: 25 September 2012, 11:15:17 »
Even then, the presence of Anhurs means that's a second-line force. I'm starting to think that my only real options for front-line Ironholds is Kirghiz Cs, Mk. VII-C Shuttles, or parachutes.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #5 on: 25 September 2012, 19:30:55 »
Survival tends to focus the mind. By its very nature, all assault armour tends to be defensive and not really suitable for front line units.

Orin J.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #6 on: 25 September 2012, 20:32:45 »
'ello.

just to point out, this is a beautiful suit of battlearmor.

thank you, and good day!
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #7 on: 26 September 2012, 22:56:46 »
It seems to me that the Jade Falcons are becoming more Lyran than the Lyrans...

Honestly, this suit just seems FAR too unbalanced.  When the only effective way to deal with it is to bring area-effect weapons (an AC/20 or Heavy Gauss at medium range is necessary to take it out with one hit!), you know something is wrong.  Also seems to me that if you expect to be facing these, you should also bring lots of Thunder-Augs and Thunder-Actives to the party as well.

Even though these are Clan suits, do they still take full damage from rifle cannons?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #8 on: 26 September 2012, 23:16:35 »
Even then, the presence of Anhurs means that's a second-line force. I'm starting to think that my only real options for front-line Ironholds is Kirghiz Cs, Mk. VII-C Shuttles, or parachutes.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #9 on: 26 September 2012, 23:49:47 »
1st Up,  Great article !


Honestly, this suit just seems FAR too unbalanced.  When the only effective way to deal with it is to bring area-effect weapons (an AC/20 or Heavy Gauss at medium range is necessary to take it out with one hit!), you know something is wrong.  Also seems to me that if you expect to be facing these, you should also bring lots of Thunder-Augs and Thunder-Actives to the party as well.
I find myself agreeing here,  this suit while claiming not to min max is very much "Optimally" designed.
Its good, its damn good.  Its Pillagers & Devastators & Nightstars good.  Its TimberWolves, Grendels, & Stooping Hawks good.   And that is mighty good there.

I'd have to resort to direct fire artillery on these, why try to engage them when you can "nuke it from orbit" and be sure.




Yeah, the Falcons really need to get some Anhur (BA)s from the Horses. A Supernova with ten of those and a Star each of Fironholds, Elemental (Fire)s, and Salamanders would be about perfect. Start a few fires to give yourself smoke cover and wreak havoc with complete immunity to the flames.

Point of order.   Technically that formation is a Trinary,  not a Super Nova.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #10 on: 27 September 2012, 08:42:49 »
Even though these are Clan suits, do they still take full damage from rifle cannons?

Why, yes. Yes, they do. You won't be one-shotting anything with rifles, but as cheap as the things are, you can probably field a lot of them against a group of Ironholds. I could see someone trying to use a group of Rifle Demons to harass an Ironhold Star from outside their range, wearing them down to the point that normal guns can more easily kill them.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #11 on: 27 September 2012, 18:11:38 »
1st Up,  Great article !

I find myself agreeing here,  this suit while claiming not to min max is very much "Optimally" designed.
Its good, its damn good.  Its Pillagers & Devastators & Nightstars good.  Its TimberWolves, Grendels, & Stooping Hawks good.   And that is mighty good there.

I'd have to resort to direct fire artillery on these, why try to engage them when you can "nuke it from orbit" and be sure.




Point of order.   Technically that formation is a Trinary,  not a Super Nova.

Oh, right. Well, a Trinary with a Nova in it. I guess there's not really a name for that, but that's what a lot of the infantry units are like in the JFSB and the cargo space worked out nicely.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #12 on: 27 September 2012, 19:50:52 »
Add a binary of infantry support tanks and call it a nova trinary.  It just happens that all the infantry are riding in one star of tanks.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #13 on: 28 September 2012, 15:33:00 »
Why, yes. Yes, they do. You won't be one-shotting anything with rifles, but as cheap as the things are, you can probably field a lot of them against a group of Ironholds. I could see someone trying to use a group of Rifle Demons to harass an Ironhold Star from outside their range, wearing them down to the point that normal guns can more easily kill them.
You really want to be using HEAVY rifles against BA so the Arbitrator is a better choice, it's an AC-5 with a bit more damage and a bonus against BA, really should get around to doing a Vedette carrying it

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #14 on: 28 September 2012, 15:36:14 »
Probably both, really. The Arbiter doesn't have the ammo to finish off a large number of Ironholds(even if said 'mech is cheaper than an Ironhold point - either variant), but it can get the job started, and let the Demons finish things.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #15 on: 28 September 2012, 19:19:04 »
Depending on the design a LL is better then a Medium Rifle, the Rifle has the same range but base damage 6

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #16 on: 28 September 2012, 22:46:39 »
Stats are in the awesome category, but clinches this mech as a winner is that it just plain looks lethal.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #17 on: 28 September 2012, 23:15:48 »
Stats are in the awesome category, but clinches this mech as a winner is that it just plain looks lethal.
Looks at thread title: "Battle Armor of the Week" what 'Mech are we talking about?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #18 on: 28 September 2012, 23:53:05 »
Looks at thread title: "Battle Armor of the Week" what 'Mech are we talking about?

the Ironhold is such a great mech they can't produce a full-sized one yet due to limited stores of sheer greatness, so all we get are the BA test-models.  O0
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #19 on: 28 September 2012, 23:56:46 »
Looks at thread title: "Battle Armor of the Week" what 'Mech are we talking about?
The hellstar.zip, for the Fire Ironhold anyway.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #20 on: 29 September 2012, 02:18:36 »
The hellstar.zip, for the Fire Ironhold anyway.

I would have gone with Cygnus 3.zip.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #21 on: 30 September 2012, 22:57:00 »
While I have yet to field this suit, I love it already, looking forward to fielding mixed Ironhold Stars, built around a core of Fires, with 2-3 Points of Standards to guard against flankers.

My only real problem with this suit is doctrinal rather than design. Even though the Falcons are finally starting to dabble in incorporating real vehicle units in their touman, I still don't see them incorporating noticeable APC support in their frontline forces(second-line is a different matter). A player wanting to field Ironholds in a frontline unit may find themselves forced into a defensive deployment, or using risky air drops to forward-deploy their suits, lest these powerful(and expensive) units simply get left behind, or shuffled off to a secondline cluster. I'm working on reconciling the need to transport the Ironhold with the pigheaded traditionalism of Clan Jade Falcon. Got a few ideas, but not many just yet.

Someone just needs to take the plunge and design omnimech infantry bays. =P Replacing the Turkina's missile launchers with boxes for BA, for instance.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #22 on: 01 October 2012, 02:12:02 »
ArrowIV-BA? :P

Just launch it like a SCUD from exposed rack, and have the BA clamp on before launch. Just means they may not even fart until the delivery rocket is at deployment point...

Don't think the ArrowIV has enough space to carry them internally...
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #23 on: 01 October 2012, 03:04:37 »
Somebodies been paying too much attention to the Angry Marines. O0  Next you'll suggest strategic BA deployment via subcapital weapons.  Fire squads of borders at incoming dropships before they even re-enter! :D
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #24 on: 01 October 2012, 05:19:16 »
Don't know about angry marines.

Juts seems like a logical way to boost BA points around. And just think of the first Elemental to boast airtime of five minutes on ArrowIV... :D Just need to remind them that terminal guidance is better left for the missile itself... :P
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #25 on: 01 October 2012, 06:30:27 »
Don't know about angry marines.

Juts seems like a logical way to boost BA points around. And just think of the first Elemental to boast airtime of five minutes on ArrowIV... :D Just need to remind them that terminal guidance is better left for the missile itself... :P
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #26 on: 01 October 2012, 09:08:01 »
Someone just needs to take the plunge and design omnimech infantry bays. =P Replacing the Turkina's missile launchers with boxes for BA, for instance.

Can't be done on a Battlemech, sadly. Only IndustrialMechs are awesome enough to properly carry an Elemental lunchbox, and many of them already do.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #27 on: 01 October 2012, 12:23:02 »
Sadly, that got changed in errata. The only transport bays that IndustrialMechs can have now are the various forms of cargo bays, they can no longer internally carry PBIs or BA.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #28 on: 01 October 2012, 12:25:20 »
Infantry can ride in cargo bays with no problem, unless every APC in the game has also been errataed. Did I miss something?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #29 on: 01 October 2012, 12:40:22 »
Because for the infantry-carrying cargo bays, the Equipment Slot Space now reads "NA (‘Mech) / 1 (Vehicle)**", thus allowing vehicles to still carry infantry, but not any type of 'Mech.

It's still kind of a messed up area of the construction rules. Technically, a lot of vehicle designs need to be tweaked to change their Xt cargo bay to the specific infantry compartment as per p239, eg a 4t cargo bay should actually be a jump infantry compartment or a 4-suit BA compartment, but it does get kind of handwaved. Add in the TO rules for BA requiring different capacity bays based upon their size, eg Assault required 2t per suit, and the TM bay rules get really messed up.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #30 on: 01 October 2012, 12:51:29 »
Until they revise TW and say that infantry can only be carried in dedicated bays or compartments, I'm going to continue to stick them anywhere they'll fit, and a Daedalus will continue to be an APC for me.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #31 on: 01 October 2012, 15:57:22 »
Imagine being carried around by a running giant.  Poor seasick bastards.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #32 on: 01 October 2012, 16:09:01 »
They're clanners, they can suck it up. Or threaten the 'mechwarrior.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #33 on: 01 October 2012, 21:10:23 »
Is there any reason you couldn't put BA in EXTERNAL cargo containers?

Just slap a lift hoist on it and attach a box to it. "Instant any mech can carry BA" optionality!

I am betting this is so awesome, and equally so obvious, that it is actually not allowed by the rules, right?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #34 on: 01 October 2012, 21:14:53 »
It's very allowed. It's just rare because external cargo sows the carrier down, and is really hosed if they take fire.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #35 on: 01 October 2012, 22:34:53 »
Depends on how big the 'Mech is, the Cargo Carriers rule still allows 10% of the 'Mechs weight right?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #36 on: 01 October 2012, 22:51:42 »
Yup.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #37 on: 01 October 2012, 23:14:31 »
It's very allowed. It's just rare because external cargo sows the carrier down, and is really hosed if they take fire.

BA doesn't exactly love incoming fire when they ride Omnis either, so I'm not sure how big of a loss that would be. Maybe an Industrial 'mech could make use of the idea, especially a cargo model with TSM. Not like they are built for speed anyway, and its cheaper than rebuilding the 'mech with heavy weapons.

Come to think of it, a Powerman industrial 'mech could carry three points of Ironholds using the Tac Ops weights, or a full star using Total Warfare. That is a scary payload for something that is technically unarmed, and a terrifying ambush for anyone who tries to pull it over.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #38 on: 01 October 2012, 23:17:25 »
Infantry and BA take a lot more damage as external cargo than mechanized BA do. I think it's automatically the full damage of everything that hits the carrier, not just a third of torso hits. It might be doubled.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #39 on: 01 October 2012, 23:24:38 »
Infantry and BA take a lot more damage as external cargo than mechanized BA do. I think it's automatically the full damage of everything that hits the carrier, not just a third of torso hits. It might be doubled.

It maybe my familiarity with your Ravagers and my Cavaliers have given me odd standards of BA survivability, but I'm still not sure that the extra damage is all that bad. In my experience, either a squad will die the first time a stiff breeze hits them, or nothing short of a nuke will stop them. Considering how tough Ironholds are, and how ruthless Falcons can be, I think it might be a possible tradeoff when you really want to put a five suit ball of pain on the battlefield. (I still wouldn't run them into the front line like this, but dropping them off in the back to stop a breakthrough seems more reasonable.)
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #40 on: 01 October 2012, 23:58:12 »
Until they revise TW and say that infantry can only be carried in dedicated bays or compartments, I'm going to continue to stick them anywhere they'll fit, and a Daedalus will continue to be an APC for me.

As was just pointed out to me:
"Infantry may ride inside any non-’Mech unit during the course of a game, provided the unit has dedicated cargo space." (TW p223)

So there's already a TW rule that disallows infantry/BA being carried inside 'Mechs, in addition to the construction rules errata for TM not allowing them to be built with the appropriate transport bays in the first place.

BTW, by "Daedalus", did you mean the Solaris 'Mech in TRO3055, or is there another Daedalus? I couldn't find a variant of the TRO3055 version with any form of transport bay, so somewhat baffled.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #41 on: 02 October 2012, 00:18:53 »
BTW, by "Daedalus", did you mean the Solaris 'Mech in TRO3055, or is there another Daedalus? I couldn't find a variant of the TRO3055 version with any form of transport bay, so somewhat baffled.
He means the ship in Macross/Robotech

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #42 on: 02 October 2012, 01:53:22 »
Just how many points of BA could that carry then...

And how many tons is it to make it a Jump one vessel...

Let's ask Weirdo...he'll know this...heck, he might even have one written up!

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #43 on: 02 October 2012, 08:11:26 »
Actually, I was referring to the Industrialmech in Klondike. Big quad cargo thingy.

Considering how tough Ironholds are, and how ruthless Falcons can be, I think it might be a possible tradeoff when you really want to put a five suit ball of pain on the battlefield. (I still wouldn't run them into the front line like this, but dropping them off in the back to stop a breakthrough seems more reasonable.)

Hmm....our group uses TW weights, so the smallest 'mech that could haul a point of Ironholds would be a fifty-tonner...oh, look. The Falcons already have a fast, frontline fifty-ton mech! We have a transport! >:D
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #44 on: 03 October 2012, 16:04:46 »
As was just pointed out to me:
"Infantry may ride inside any non-’Mech unit during the course of a game, provided the unit has dedicated cargo space." (TW p223)

This just got me thinking.

Has anyone ever tried transporting battle armor via ASF and combat dropping them like living bombs?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #45 on: 03 October 2012, 16:08:21 »
Anyone who's ever fielded the Kirghiz C or the Mk. VII-C, I'd expect. 8)
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #46 on: 03 October 2012, 16:43:40 »
This just got me thinking.

Has anyone ever tried transporting battle armor via ASF and combat dropping them like living bombs?
Now I want to see a Clan tech Mars with jump jets deploy infantry from altitude.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #47 on: 03 October 2012, 17:06:48 »
This just got me thinking.

Has anyone ever tried transporting battle armor via ASF and combat dropping them like living bombs?

Asked about this at one point, Omni-Fighters can NOT perform Mechanized Battle Armor Tactics so I'm guessing that you can't

Anyone who's ever fielded the Kirghiz C or the Mk. VII-C, I'd expect. 8)
Mk. VII-C What?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #48 on: 03 October 2012, 17:11:08 »
Asked about this at one point, Omni-Fighters can NOT perform Mechanized Battle Armor Tactics so I'm guessing that you can't

Not even if you design a config or variant with a battle armor/infantry bay?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #49 on: 03 October 2012, 17:13:14 »
Asked about this at one point, Omni-Fighters can NOT perform Mechanized Battle Armor Tactics so I'm guessing that you can't
You can't put them on the outside, no. Inside is another matter.
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Mk. VII-C What?
A shuttle with almost thirty tons of cargo space. ^-^
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #50 on: 03 October 2012, 18:32:06 »
Not even if you design a config or variant with a battle armor/infantry bay?
There are also standard fighters and mag-clamps

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #51 on: 03 October 2012, 18:50:39 »
Something tells me mag clamps are not up to the rigors of supersonic flight...
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #52 on: 03 October 2012, 19:32:54 »
Something tells me mag clamps are not up to the rigors of supersonic flight...
True, but there's nothing the say they aren't in the rules, most people aren't dumb enough to try and there's really no point, even if they can't be used on VTOL's

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #53 on: 03 October 2012, 20:04:41 »
TW page 227 is extremely explicit that you can't use mag-clamps to mount aerospace units.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #54 on: 03 October 2012, 20:11:56 »
Now I want to see a Clan tech Mars with jump jets deploy infantry from altitude.

Kanga APC would be awesome as well

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #55 on: 05 October 2012, 11:26:11 »
Just to confirm. After a serious internal review, it was determined to disallow the carrying of any live cargo inside a BattleMech.
This is due to a number of reasons-
The nature of BattleMechs, with their very restricted internal space (which is often if very odd shapes), precludes space properly sized to fit living creatures.
The motive style of a BattleMech creates an uneven and unsafe ride that is hard to protect against.
Related to the previous bullet, it would require whole new rules on how to deal with damage to living cargo.

The IndustrialQuad from Klondike seems to be an exception. I'm not sure we ever got to the errata, however the intention is to adjust it so it is carrying an external cargo module (like what is seen on cargo ships today). External cargo modules can carry infantry.

There is also a fiction reference to a DA IndustrialMech that disgorges infantry from it's arm. This unit was using a skip loader attachment with the infantry hiding in it.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #56 on: 05 October 2012, 11:36:13 »
Does this external cargo doohickey also apply to other Industrialmechs with cargo space?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #57 on: 05 October 2012, 12:07:08 »
Does this external cargo doohickey also apply to other Industrialmechs with cargo space?
Or for that matter, say, a Shadowhawk carrying a "five ton container" in its hands which can pop open and reveal a jump infantry platoon or a medium BA squad?  Not so much a rules question as it is a confirmation.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #58 on: 05 October 2012, 12:27:25 »
Does this external cargo doohickey also apply to other Industrialmechs with cargo space?

I'm pretty sure we locked it all down, if we didn't please feel free to point it out. The intent is only if you can fit an external cargo module, can you carry infantry. That requires a lot of contiguous criticals. A biped Mech would look like it was a Size Triple E girl with the cargo modules sticking out of its chest.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #59 on: 05 October 2012, 12:50:06 »
This has me highly confused. Hopefully the errata itself will clear things, up, explaining explicitly which leg-motive units may carry infantry, and under which circumstances.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #60 on: 05 October 2012, 13:30:08 »
This has me highly confused. Hopefully the errata itself will clear things, up, explaining explicitly which leg-motive units may carry infantry, and under which circumstances.

Sorry, wasn't trying to confuse.

It is straightforward. BattleMechs and Industrial Mechs can not mount infantry bays, nor carry infantry as "cargo" in an internal cargo bay. They may carry Cargo Containers (10 tons). Cargo containers can be fitted to carry infantry.

So unless the Mech is equipped to carry a Cargo Container, then it cannot carry infantry.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #61 on: 05 October 2012, 13:43:32 »
Cargo container can carry infantry, or else the APC best not have legs. Got it.

*dashes to the SupportPole, and slides down to the SupportCave*

That gives us the Kiso...and that's it. Here's hoping some of the workmechs in VA also get container cargo. I really want to use things like the Uni or Powerman to carry stuff into battle.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #62 on: 05 October 2012, 18:34:25 »
So for a 'Mech to carry infantry it must have a 10 ton cargo space that is continuous?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #63 on: 05 October 2012, 18:42:03 »
So for a 'Mech to carry infantry it must have a 10 ton cargo space that is continuous?

Essentially. And because it is a cargo container, they can't deploy in battle.

However we've derailed the Ironhold thread...
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #64 on: 06 October 2012, 03:16:55 »
I think it's something that's going to come up in every Assault BA article, moving it around better

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #65 on: 07 October 2012, 10:06:07 »
Ladies and gentlemen, get back on topic, please.  If you need to create a discussion on 'how to move assault BA', please do it in the Ground Combat section.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #66 on: 07 October 2012, 14:21:53 »
The way this one was headed Fan Designs would be better

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #67 on: 07 October 2012, 20:07:29 »
no one topic can contain thread drift, that one was headed to at LEAST three places.

besides, the transport of assault BA is pretty deeply tied to their usefulness as a unit. look at the Ironhold absolutely great design, almost frightening, but if it's without a something that can carry it it's very easy to engage it out of it's effective rage and cripple the the unit or simply move the fight away from it.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #68 on: 03 November 2013, 21:25:48 »
Tried out the Ironhold (Anti-Tank) today. Dice, but that thing is a BEAST. Good range, and the sheer number of clusters a point can put out is absolutely nuts. I sadly did not face any actual tanks, but even against 'mechs they were doing heavy damage. Sure, it was heavily spread out, but there were also TACs and head hits galore.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #69 on: 03 November 2013, 22:54:38 »
Yeah, from the stats it looks like a point of those are essentially like a sawed-off LB-20X on legs. I look forward to the day they show up in my games.


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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #70 on: 04 November 2013, 01:05:34 »
I can imagine. Ran a few points of Golem (Support)s last night and they were averaging a head hit a salvo. The LBX puts out a lot more shells...

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #71 on: 04 November 2013, 07:41:18 »
No kidding. While I certainly know that repetition <> statistical certainty, throwing 40 pellets at something does improve the odds of a 1-in-36 event somewhat...

On a rules note, what is the exact procedure for determining the number of pellets? When I played, I rolled for each LB-X "bay", then the nuber of suits that hit in that "bay", and then rolled on the 4-chart for each individual LB-X. Is this correct, or should I be combining them in any way?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #72 on: 04 November 2013, 11:45:25 »
BA LB-X AC ranged attacks are resolved like battle armor missile attacks. So in the case of the Ironhold (Anti-Tank) adding up the total possible pellets shot by the "LB-X #1" for a full point equals 20. If the attack is successful consult the 20 column of the cluster hits table and roll to determine how many pellets hit. Lather/rise/repeat for the "LB-X #2". While not required by the rules, an evil chuckle is recommended at this point.

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #73 on: 04 November 2013, 11:49:42 »
Okay, I can see that speeding things up. I'll do that in the future.

And after seeing them operate, there will always be LOTS of evil chuckles when using these guys...
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #74 on: 04 November 2013, 13:45:33 »
Great, it wasn't good enough that Ironholds made infantry a no go, now my tanks are screwed too. Looks like the Jade Falcons have found a way to force everyone into 'mech duels again!  ;D

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #75 on: 04 November 2013, 14:03:09 »
Oh, and this variant retains the fire-resistant armor, too. 8)
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #76 on: 05 November 2013, 01:10:24 »
Great, it wasn't good enough that Ironholds made infantry a no go, now my tanks are screwed too. Looks like the Jade Falcons have found a way to force everyone into 'mech duels again!  ;D

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #77 on: 05 November 2013, 02:10:11 »
Great, it wasn't good enough that Ironholds made infantry a no go, now my tanks are screwed too. Looks like the Jade Falcons have found a way to force everyone into 'mech duels again!  ;D

That sounds like a good excuse to break out the Cluster Bombs to me. >:D


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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #78 on: 05 November 2013, 03:41:40 »
That sounds like a good excuse to break out the Cluster Bombs to me. >:D

You need an excuse to break out the Cluster Bombs?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #79 on: 05 November 2013, 05:07:57 »
You need an excuse to break out the Cluster Bombs?

Well, excuses can be flexible things.  Annoying BA are a good one, but there are plenty of other options.  Fast 'Mechs, infantry hordes, urban renewal, boredom, ect. ;D

More seriously, it is really dependent on weather or not I want to bring aerospace assets to the battle.  For example, I am not going to bring an ASF if I know the other guy has a Ryoken II because it is going to go plowing into the ground before I can get a decent return on my investment. :-[


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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #80 on: 05 November 2013, 11:33:30 »
Perhaps the FedSuns might be willing to sell the Lyrans a few Destriers. That is if the Suns can actually get a functioning government running again...
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #81 on: 05 November 2013, 11:35:50 »
Do they need them, after all their Gulltopprs?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #82 on: 05 November 2013, 13:18:10 »
Well, I think the main point to vehicles, aside from being cheap, is Artillery (cannons), missile boats, and different motive types.
Unless you have FL armour or something.
So why not bring that LTC while your there?
And as I haven't actually read it:
I suppose the Anti-tank version is 2x BA-LBX?
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #83 on: 05 November 2013, 13:33:26 »
Yup. Two of them, plus an OS-SRM-1.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #84 on: 05 November 2013, 14:58:07 »
Oh, I suppose they had the weight left over.
Still, that's lame. Should have gone for a searchlight instead.
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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #85 on: 05 November 2013, 15:04:32 »
Do they need them, after all their Gulltopprs?

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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #86 on: 05 November 2013, 15:13:23 »
Rommel Hetzer will get the job done!

I think you mean the Rommel (Howitzer)? Yeah, those are probably a more efficient solution than the slow-as-molasses Gulltoppr.


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Re: Battle Armor of the Week - Ironhold Assault Battle Armor
« Reply #87 on: 05 November 2013, 16:14:51 »
Oh, I suppose they had the weight left over.
Still, that's lame. Should have gone for a searchlight instead.

How so? Came straight off the Salamander, with which it also shares the armor.
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