Author Topic: "Next Generation" weapons  (Read 10898 times)

DarthRads

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"Next Generation" weapons
« on: 20 March 2018, 05:57:29 »
Hello community,

It thought this would be an appropriate place for this.

In all the rumors about ilClan and in the past a time jump and new tech base, I have been thinking about what this might be. Some concerns that were raised in other threads have been about existing tech becoming truly obsolete (both for and against, with the negative argument specifying tech bloat among other things).

Here is one idea (but I'm very interested to hear others)

This is hopefully a simple rule for when playing 'next gen' VS old tech - Armour and structure ignore 1 point for every five points of armour like 3100s FL armour. Perhaps this is an outgrowth of present day FL tech and in this far distant future it has become the standard.

Similarly, 'Next Gen' weapons (when facing 'Old Tech') counts as hitting 20% (1 extra point for every 5 normally inflicted). Perhaps this is an ourgrowth of Re-engineered lasers or heavy lasers or something.

So...a Old Clan Tech ER PPC when hitting 'Next Gen' armour would do only 12 points of damage. Similary, a 'Next Gen' ER PPC hitting 'Old Tech' armour would hit for 18 Points of damage.

'Next Gen' vs 'Next Gen' would function normally.

This simplifies things by having a simple conversion and makes the new tech clearly superior, but still possible to overwhelm with numbers by hordes of 'rebels' with obsolete equipment.

Now this is a quick and simple way of creating a 'new generation' of tech. I have others, but what about you? How might you create a rules set for a new tech base while retaining the old?

phoenixalpha

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #1 on: 20 March 2018, 07:20:00 »
"Newtech" armour - 20 points per ton, anything "Oldtech" weapons do 25% total damage (rounded down). So CERPPC does 3 damage to "Newtech" armour.

Newtech armour has to be powered by a fusion engine, and incorporates elements of FF, LF, Blueshield, Reflective and Reactive armour. No fusion engine, no newtech armour.

Newtech weapons do normal damage against Newtech armour and 4x damage to oldtech armour.

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #2 on: 20 March 2018, 07:41:08 »
Weapons that are smaller or lighter with the same damage or range.
Armor more points per ton.
Better targeting weapons.
Maybe like a "Array" for like weapons.....A "Aegis" for like missile boats.
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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #3 on: 20 March 2018, 11:51:19 »

I would prefer a straight up simple factor TWO with a rounding up.

Old ML to New armor = 3 damage
New ML to Old armor = 10 damage
equal ML to equal armor = 5 damage


However having 20 points per ton of armor would be pretty nice for calculations....
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phoenixalpha

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #4 on: 20 March 2018, 13:57:41 »
You could have a new set of weapons totally replacing the old ones.

So for example. Newtech missile launcher.

UMS - Universal Missile System - Self contained Missile launcher which can fire 1 round per ton, each "pod" contains 7 missiles. Cannot have extra reloads. Each missile is fuelled with an explosive liquid which also doubles as explosive warhead so the further the missile travels, the more fuel it uses, the less explosive damage potential when detonated. Each "pod" has CASE built into it and if hit with a critical strike, destroys the launcher and all missiles inside. Does 1 point of damage to internal structure, 1 pilot hit, 1 damage to armour (front and back). Each pod also acts like a Streak launcher - so if target roll fails - missile is not fired. Can also combine with other UMS launchers, but only in one location - ie in a totally empty torso - you could have a UMS 12. Each pod communicates with each other pod for the purposes of to hit rolls, so 1 roll for all launchers in a location. All missiles hit on a successful target roll. Missile hit locations are treated individually. You cannot have separate to hit rolls with multiple UMS launchers in the same location unless 1 or more are destroyed in which case it becomes a case of each UMS launcher on either side of the damaged one acts independently ie UMS 12 in torso - UMS 3 gets a destroyed, so you then have a UMS 2 & a UMS 9 in the same location.

UMS - 1 ton per launcher, 7 missiles per launcher, missiles included in 1 ton. No extra reloads.
Range Short - 1-7 hex, Medium 8-14 hex, Long 15-21 hex.
Damage Short - 3 points per missile, Medium 2 points per missile, Long 1 point per missile.
Heat - 1 heat per missile launched, "oldtech" heatsinks 4 heat per missile launched.

Immune to "oldtech" ECM jamming. Does 4 x damage to "oldtech" armour.

Who would want to use a LRM/SRM/MML any more?
« Last Edit: 20 March 2018, 14:06:14 by phoenixalpha »

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #5 on: 20 March 2018, 14:31:16 »
I'd like to see some power creep.

Seriously.

Here's an example: AC's were "meh" but alright. Then came LBX and Ultra version. COOL, right? Not really. They were heavier, bulkier, jammed, etc. Move the timeline alone a few years and we got something called "Light Autocannon". YES! Those have got to be an upgrade, right? Wrong. they are lighter and less bulky, yes. But they lost range and the larger bore variants were missing. Don't even get me started on the disaster that is the RAC (or as we like to call them, the "I didn't need to use this 15-20 tons on my mech anyway. I'd rather risk the ammo getting shot because I my gun jammed round 2 and now I'm a walking bomb")

So yes. Give us some better weapons.

Please and thank you.  ;D

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #6 on: 20 March 2018, 16:42:08 »

Vehrec

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #7 on: 20 March 2018, 21:52:26 »
I've been thinking about writing up some 'alien' technology on the basis that the universe is big and ancient and there must be ruins of technological civilizations who predecease humanity.  Stuff way beyond the current state of the art-SuperCapital weapons that weigh a million tons and have damage output in the thousands, antimatter power plants for battlemechs (that can stockpole into an actual nuclear bomb sized blast, keep seperation!), living metals that heal damage to your Mech or redistribute armor to seal holes, mysterious Blue-shield distrupting rayguns, and neurohelmets that are meant to help you see the future before it happens.

But to keep it a bit grounded, one of the bits of tech was gonna be a RAG, Rotary AutoGauss, something just a bit ahead of the Clans, but impossible to build without 50 years of basic research into blue-sky projects and a bit of luck.  12 damage because of smaller slugs fired at much higher velocity-so high they self-combust in an terran-standard atmosphere-and it can fire up to four with minimal chance of jamming even at maximum rate-and it can clear a jam with one turn.  So feel free to hold down the trigger and make BRRRRRRRT noises with your mouth-as long as you brought enough heat-sinks to deal with the fact that each extra shot does much more heat than the one before it.  Like, the heat curve is 0/+5/+10/+15. 
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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #8 on: 20 March 2018, 23:37:45 »
I've been thinking about writing up some 'alien' technology on the basis that the universe is big and ancient and there must be ruins of technological civilizations who predecease humanity.  Stuff way beyond the current state of the art-SuperCapital weapons that weigh a million tons and have damage output in the thousands, antimatter power plants for battlemechs (that can stockpole into an actual nuclear bomb sized blast, keep seperation!), living metals that heal damage to your Mech or redistribute armor to seal holes, mysterious Blue-shield distrupting rayguns, and neurohelmets that are meant to help you see the future before it happens.

But to keep it a bit grounded, one of the bits of tech was gonna be a RAG, Rotary AutoGauss, something just a bit ahead of the Clans, but impossible to build without 50 years of basic research into blue-sky projects and a bit of luck.  12 damage because of smaller slugs fired at much higher velocity-so high they self-combust in an terran-standard atmosphere-and it can fire up to four with minimal chance of jamming even at maximum rate-and it can clear a jam with one turn.  So feel free to hold down the trigger and make BRRRRRRRT noises with your mouth-as long as you brought enough heat-sinks to deal with the fact that each extra shot does much more heat than the one before it.  Like, the heat curve is 0/+5/+10/+15.

I think you're reaching a little too far.  And aliens, too?
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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #9 on: 21 March 2018, 00:09:16 »
Honestly,  I don't want to see some fractional degrading of performance from older weapons.

I'd just like some "combo/streamline" of the weapons/rules that make using the old versions gimpy.

Set up all "Ammo" using weapons to come in 2-5-10-20 classes at 120 pts damage / ton of ammo.

Call it the Variable Missile Launcher & Variable Auto Cannon and they both shoot whatever the hell you load them with.
VML fires any previously known SRM, LRM, MRM, ATM type ammos has clan weights & counts as built in Artemis/Apollo systems.

Ditto the ACs, they are all "Rotary-Light" combo weapons w/ any ammo type at the lightest weights & longest ranges previously.

Give me a new Clan LPL that matches the range/heat of the Clan ERLL & call it good.
Ditto the other lasers.

The only PPC should be the Clan-ER-Snub-Capacitor PPC.   
For 7 Tons & 3 slots (same as the original PPC) you get a weapon with 9-14-23 brackets that does 20 Damage for 25 Heat and can be fired every turn.


Basically that gets us down to 4 Missile, 4 Ballistic, 5 Energy, & then toss in an Advanced MG (Range-6, Damage-3, Ammo-80), Advanced Flamer, Advanced Plasma and Artillery for 20 total weapons.

Clan Endo is the only Endo & remains the same.
Armor comes in Hardened/Lamelor for 16 points & 7 crits or Clan-HeavyFerro varieties for 20 Points / Ton & 7 crits.
   Hardened/Lamelor is twice the BV per Point since it soaks up twice the damage & is half/rounded down so that BB's don't penetrate.

SuperNova EWS that acts like TAG & C3i is the new Electronics Norm along with Laser AMS.
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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #10 on: 21 March 2018, 03:26:39 »
Another example.

PAC - Particle Accelerator Cannon.

Upgrading the venerable PPC was never an easy job, but ilClan and Republic Scientists had reached the end of the PPC cycle - there was no more bang for the buck. So instead of just projecting particles, why not accelerate them. Taking a cue from large scale particle accelerators used in science, they just decreased the size and power demands.

PAC - Damage 15 points to "newtech" armour. 4x damage to "oldtech armour". 15 heat per firing with "newtech" heatsinks, 4x heat if used with "oldtech" heatsinks. No capacitors are allowed.
Range - Short 1-7, Medium 8-14, long 15-23
Weight 7 tons
Criticals 3


phoenixalpha

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #11 on: 21 March 2018, 03:39:09 »
"Newtech" lasers

Come in 3 weights.

NwLaser 1 - 1 ton, 1 crit, 3 damage to "newtech" armour - 4x damage to "oldtech" armour, 3 heat with "newtech" heatsinks - 4x heat with "oldtech" heatsinks
NwLaser 2 - 2 ton, 2 crits, 6 damage to "newtech" armour - 4x damage to "oldtech" armour, 6 heat with "newtech" heatsinks - 4x heat with "oldtech" heatsinks
NwLaser 4 - 4 ton, 4 crits, 12 damage to "newtech" armour - 4x damage to "oldtech" armour, 12 heat with "newtech" heatsinks - 4x heat with "oldtech" heatsinks
Range all NwL - Short 1-4, Medium 5-9, Long 10-15.

Can change setting to pulse mode, must be declared before firing and to hit rolls commences - 2 x heat for -2 to hit roll.







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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #12 on: 21 March 2018, 08:58:35 »
It's kind of interesting that this time around people are in favor of a time jump and 'reset' for the game after IlClan.  I wonder what Herb would think?
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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #13 on: 21 March 2018, 09:04:52 »
My guess is that most people who don't want a time jump simply aren't reading this thread...

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #14 on: 21 March 2018, 12:25:36 »
I think you're reaching a little too far.  And aliens, too?
I think that Vehrec's post was sarcasm, but that is oke for a forum. 
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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #15 on: 21 March 2018, 13:06:07 »
No, I was in earnest about it-look at some of the other 'newtech' people are pushing in this thread, like 12 damage medium lasers with 12 heat?  This is a power-creep zone, so let's indulge ourselves and rub the power-creep all over ourselves like some kind of gross instructional video on how to apply suntan lotion.

I mean, if the aliens are breaking your suspension of disbelief, that's too bad, but it's not like they would affect the political underpinnings of the setting-the aliens are all dead.
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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #16 on: 21 March 2018, 13:08:30 »
I think there should be a time jump. Reset the universe a bit. Reset the rules with a smaller number or mechs/weapons. If you time jump to 3250 for example you can still play pre ilClan, but anything post ilClan uses new tech, simpler rules. You used to be able to play BT easily without a manual the size of a telephone directory.

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #17 on: 21 March 2018, 16:11:35 »
How about an upgrade to the Blue Shield PDF or armor that adds in EM dampening to reduce the effectiveness of Active Probes and TSEMP weapons?

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #18 on: 25 March 2018, 22:28:45 »
As long as we’re encouraging obsolescence

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Red Pins

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #19 on: 26 March 2018, 23:09:49 »
No, I was in earnest about it-look at some of the other 'newtech' people are pushing in this thread, like 12 damage medium lasers with 12 heat?  This is a power-creep zone, so let's indulge ourselves and rub the power-creep all over ourselves like some kind of gross instructional video on how to apply suntan lotion.

I mean, if the aliens are breaking your suspension of disbelief, that's too bad, but it's not like they would affect the political underpinnings of the setting-the aliens are all dead.

Hmm, I'm not COMPLETELY against it, but - its your game, dude.  It's not like I haven't made my own homebrew stuff.  I have to admit it would be different,

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #20 on: 29 March 2018, 08:50:48 »
I think there should be a time jump. Reset the universe a bit. Reset the rules with a smaller number or mechs/weapons. If you time jump to 3250 for example you can still play pre ilClan, but anything post ilClan uses new tech, simpler rules. You used to be able to play BT easily without a manual the size of a telephone directory.
This is sorta my thinking. Without "cross-gen" play option for simplicity's sake. Old 'Mechs would be coming back with updated stats. Spheroids and Clanners alike both do cling to nostalgia after all, i mean all the Succession Wars and conquests to restore the Star League or whatever else...

I'm currently prototyping some ideas for "Advanced" tech base, set after unspecified length time skip, with tech base differences erased. Undetermined time because we don't have proper idea how things are going to go with IlClan/Shattered Fortress and afterwards.

Also included are various rule tweaks for slightly simplified and faster gameplay, these probably will result in incompatibility with existing technology though. My prototype weapon set may be functional with current rules however.
Wouldn't be a total rules overhaul, rather i'd tweak certain aspects, such as reducing range bands to "optimal and maximum" as opposed to "short/medium/long", and tweaking heat system to make overheating more acceptable and interesting risk.

Core ideas are:
-To reduce the number of weapons while diversifying their function.
-To increase game speed somewhat.
-To simplify and standardize various game effects.
-To add interesting tactical choices.

Vehicles will be included in simplified form. Battle Armor and infantry would be included as well, with some adjustments, such as squad-sized infantry being the norm as opposed to platoon-sized. These should function as filler and as cheap cannon fodder in campaigns: say there's a 5000BV game, and your 'Mechs add up to 4700, you could throw in some vehicles and infantry to top your BV allotment; or when the GM needs something for players to kill that doesn't pose overt threat.

My weapons would be relatively varied, with every standard weapon having a reasonable niche and use. Ideally there'd be no need for separate "introductory" set. Currently there would be something like 8-9 weapon types plus minor weapons (eg flamer, MG) total in standard set, with about 3 weapons per type.
There would be space for some experimental/rare weapons though, for customized aces and characters but these wouldn't be included in standard games. Experimental equipment would be more like sidegrades and could likely overlap with other weapon types, but ideally there'd be no need or reason to ever include them in the standard set.
All would have some fluff why things are as they are.

For example:
I'd compress the number of lasers types to one, from the current nine or ten types (three lasers per type usually, there are closer to 30 lasers in current rules across both tech bases)!
Next-gen "Advanced Lasers" -- coming in the usual Small, Medium and Large types --  would be lightweight and compact, run relatively hot, with mediocre range and damage, but inherently accurate (to-hit bonus). Experimental "Advanced Lasers" might include a Blazer-like assault laser or a "sniper" laser.
The rough fluff reason would be that they are mix of former laser technologies, with compromises to make them effective against modern armor. Rules-wise, there'd be no more pulse and beam lasers, instead those would be relegated purely to fluff role (gameplay abstraction means the differences aren't large enough to be remarkable).

Practical reason: there are no fundamental differences between lasers right now. A standard laser and ER laser differ only in range, and pulse lasers just have an accuracy bonus (with arguably poorly articulated reasons) yet they don't really feel different from standard and ER lasers. But it isn't just a weapon type problem, current lasers are not that different from PPCs or autocannons. My system would give each weapon type a simple gimmick, such as lasers having accuracy bonus or PPCs having "interference effect", this would also simplify the game as people don't need to wonder/remember what's the difference between various weapons sharing a name.

No details on construction parts yet. Also need to come up with a simple balancing system that ideally accommodates custom designs without cumbersome calculations, i doubt mere tonnage will work.

This is just rough outline, i'll make a thread for these when i've finished my first draft of things.

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #21 on: 29 March 2018, 18:11:02 »
I wouldn't reduce lasers to one type, as I think there can be a lot of room to work with in the laser system to keep it working.  If nothing else, almost anything you can justify with autocannons or PPCs can find room in a laser concept.

Don't like pulse lasers right now, but will include multi-shot autocannons like Ultra or RACs?  There you go, convert pulse lasers to being the Rotary Laser Guns which provide the multi-shot option. 

Where the craziness lies with the lasers is justification for making them stronger in one way or another.  Heavy lasers, x-pulse lasers, and re-engineered lasers all represent that justification of making a more powerful version to "keep up with the Jones'".
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Maingunnery

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #22 on: 29 March 2018, 18:22:50 »
Don't like pulse lasers right now, but will include multi-shot autocannons like Ultra or RACs?  There you go, convert pulse lasers to being the Rotary Laser Guns which provide the multi-shot option.
What about Chemical Laser ammo for Rotary ACs?

I think that the players can do with less weapons but with on average more ammo options for more weapons.
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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #23 on: 29 March 2018, 19:18:03 »
I wouldn't reduce lasers to one type, as I think there can be a lot of room to work with in the laser system to keep it working.  If nothing else, almost anything you can justify with autocannons or PPCs can find room in a laser concept.

Don't like pulse lasers right now, but will include multi-shot autocannons like Ultra or RACs?  There you go, convert pulse lasers to being the Rotary Laser Guns which provide the multi-shot option. 

Where the craziness lies with the lasers is justification for making them stronger in one way or another.  Heavy lasers, x-pulse lasers, and re-engineered lasers all represent that justification of making a more powerful version to "keep up with the Jones'".

List of my ideas right now, standard weapons only, no experimental/special weapons, not a finalized draft 1:
Energy:
-Lasers, 3 sizes, have accuracy bonus
-PPC, 1 size/type?, interference effect, typical energy-primary weapon, very familiar overall
-Plasma weapons, 2 types (plasma rifle and plasma railgun), heat transfer as special effect, plasma railgun trades damage and heat transfer for longer range
-TSEMP or DEMP (directed EMP), 1 type, zero-damage weapon that can cause component crits but cannot shut down (military) units, also has interference effect identical to that of PPCs'

Note: Lasers get accuracy bonus because we are talking about lightspeed weapons, the only limits are the targeting system and mechanical limitations of the laser weapon mount and those are generous enough lasers are accurate. More detail for reasoning later.

Ballistic:
-Gauss rifles, 1-3 sizes? THE sniper weapon (unsure about whether i'll have AP or Hyper Assault Gauss rifles)
-Autocannons, 3-4 sizes, cluster weapons (merges ultras and rotaries into them, along with LB-X cluster shots) with static number of shots, the usual ballistic-primary weapon, has flak bonus vs air, medium-long range for all variants (no nonsense inverse power/range progression here), no jamming
-Hyper-velocity Cannons, sorta poor man's Gauss rifle, primarily intended for vehicles and 'Mechs from states with limited technological capabilities, has some ammo options, long range, functionally successor to standard BT autocannons and spiritual successor to "rifle" cannons and hypervelocity ACs (but without blowing up)

Note: Autocannons now function as their name implies, they are rapid fire large caliber guns after all.

Missiles:
-Long range guided missiles, 3-4 sizes, long range (possibly longest of all) with focus on indirect fire
-Unguided rockets, 3-4 sizes, short effective range but overall long range, capable of indirect fire (hex-wide saturation bombardment), merging of rocket launchers and MRMs with dash of Soviet Katyasha/Grad/etc. rocket launchers
-Short range guided missiles, ?? sizes, ??? (really haven't figured these out yet, probably like SRMs of now in practice)

Note: all missiles feature variety of warheads with special effects and are intended to be used with those more often than not perhaps.
Note: Missiles are still under work because i envision them having very limited ammo special purpose/high power role rather than spammable "arrows", but i'm not sure about this yet. I'll probably leave them more familiar than make them special though. Thunderbolt successor might get that special role, but it'd be relegated to "experimental" weapons and not a part of standard set in such case.

Other weapons:
-Flamer, 1 type, uses ammo (i have reasons for dropping the usual flamer, will explain later), heat transfer along with damage
-MG, 1 size?, uses ammo but ammo is baked into weapon itself, no ammo explosion (really wanted to get rid of the strongest explosive known), primarily anti-infantry weapon (with possible flak bonus vs air, reasons later) and cheap filler
-Melee weapon, one type for kick-strength melee weapons, one type for "dual-wieldable" punch-strength melee weapons, differences such as "sword" or "hatchet" or "claws" are cosmetic for sake of simplicity

All target affecting special effects would be standardized (no die rolling there), and represented with a token that notes the exact magnitude of the effect.

I don't feel lasers work as cluster weapons. A pulse laser pulsing is fast enough it cannot practically function as a cluster weapon. Likewise, a beam laser has short enough beam it doesn't spread across multiple armor locations and thus does not function as a cluster weapon.
"Gatling lasers" are just plain silly, only fit for Fallout.
While i currently have only one type of lasers, i am willing to listed to additional ideas if this new laser type brings something unique and interesting to play.
One idea i have is for Blazer-like "double-tap laser" (one-size only probably), that works like lasers except upon firing, it can immediately attempt another attack with same modifiers and guaranteed same hit location but with massive heat cost. Might need declaring beforehand though, otherwise it would too good. Effectively we'd be looking something like 2x damage for 3 to 4x heat cost, but since it is the same hit location... This might end up being experimental weapon though, not a standard one.

Overall, my aim is sorta-introductory-level-like/Star League-like set of weapons but with additional options thrown into mix, everything balanced reasonably.
Ranges are probably close to introductory level but with heavier 'Mechs possessing higher mobility being more common. Maximum range should be about 25 hexes and that should be rare, this is for sake of keeping playing area within reasonable limits for standard games.
Damage values are completely in the air at the moment. Thinking of things being stronger than BT's introductory level though, in order to speed up game resolution a bit, plus technically these weapons are descendants of Clan tech after all. Alternatively "official" 'Mech design is to keep them well under armor cap, with anything maxing armor out being rare and paying for it.
Do note there will electronic equipment like ECM or active probe systems, construction materials and options, and new armor types including new types of modular armor. The only solid here is that all 'Mechs sport "single heat sinks" (actually compacted DHS but heat scale adjusted), and "double heat sinks" that cannot be fit into engine.

Also note that some things might not really make sense... but then again neither do many things in classic BattleTech. Just smile and nod.
« Last Edit: 29 March 2018, 19:20:57 by Empyrus »

(SMD)MadCow

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #24 on: 29 March 2018, 19:24:05 »
What about Chemical Laser ammo for Rotary ACs?

That sounds awesome.

Charistoph

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #25 on: 29 March 2018, 19:51:03 »
I don't feel lasers work as cluster weapons. A pulse laser pulsing is fast enough it cannot practically function as a cluster weapon. Likewise, a beam laser has short enough beam it doesn't spread across multiple armor locations and thus does not function as a cluster weapon.
"Gatling lasers" are just plain silly, only fit for Fallout.
While i currently have only one type of lasers, i am willing to listed to additional ideas if this new laser type brings something unique and interesting to play.
One idea i have is for Blazer-like "double-tap laser" (one-size only probably), that works like lasers except upon firing, it can immediately attempt another attack with same modifiers and guaranteed same hit location but with massive heat cost. Might need declaring beforehand though, otherwise it would too good. Effectively we'd be looking something like 2x damage for 3 to 4x heat cost, but since it is the same hit location... This might end up being experimental weapon though, not a standard one.

Actually, it is not that silly.  Lasers operate on a capacitor and core system to generate the burst of energy.  Techncially, they all operate on a pulsing system, the only difference is frequency and duration. 

The purpose behind a "gatling laser" system would be the same for having a rotary ballistic weapon, to provide a proper cooling and recharge time for each capacitor and core system.  Each individual pulse will be shorter to take advantage of the rotation system.

Though, I was not necessarily looking to have a "gatling laser" itself, more its effect.  A pulse laser would be set up to provide many short, quickly recharged, pulses over a period of time instead of the standard long pulse associated with the normal laser system.  Indeed, that is part of the explanation of how they work in the current system.  Instead of having one long pulse focusing on one place on the target, the pulses would scatter across the target at a similar pace as the reloading of the autocannon.  Each pulse would, by being of a much shorter duration, do less damage then the standard long pulse, but the system would provide more pulses in that same time frame.
« Last Edit: 29 March 2018, 20:08:50 by Charistoph »
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Empyrus

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #26 on: 29 March 2018, 20:18:05 »
Eh, not very laser-y to me. Fallout 3 depicts multicapacitor but not multibarreled Gatling laser, still silly.
I very much prefer lasers to be short duration beam weapons with some charging time in between. MWO depiction of beam and pulse lasers is pretty good example (though its beams last too long as they allow damage spreading). Pulsed laser is mostly a method for avoiding atmospheric blooming that is more likely to occur with beam laser and to let vaporized material disperse (accounting for damage increase), but pulsing a laser weapon makes it more challenging technically.

More importantly, i really can't see why lasers should overlap with autocannons and missiles as cluster weapons. While it might add to energy weapons category, it does not add to the system overall.
Any other type of laser should do something no other weapon does but what isn't too complex.

Arguably re-engineered lasers might fit my system, i have new armor types after all and some will impact lasers too. Functionally i can see them having accuracy bonus but either trading part of the bonus or something else for ability to defeat special armors.
Just need a new name for them, re-engineered laser is too long and not really descriptive. Maybe i'll call them "pulse lasers" (as RElasers are a type of pulse lasers canonically)?
« Last Edit: 29 March 2018, 20:22:29 by Empyrus »

Empyrus

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #27 on: 29 March 2018, 20:30:49 »
I am very much considering removing TSEMP/DEMP from my standard weapon list. It is somewhat complex, doesn't add much to the system. Almost-guaranteed through armor critical hit weapon might be interesting on paper, but in practice it might be excessively random in that it might enable disabling critical enemy 'Mech without any real effort.

Plasma weapons heat transfer and missile special warheads (eg Infernos) should be the primary method of affecting enemy 'Mechs outside dealing damage to them.

Charistoph

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #28 on: 29 March 2018, 20:39:39 »
Eh, not very laser-y to me. Fallout 3 depicts multicapacitor but not multibarreled Gatling laser, still silly.

Silly is a matter of perspective.  If it is successful, it isn't so silly.  Just look at the writeup for the A-10 Thunderbolt II (aka Warthog).  The concept of a subsonic tank killer in the day of supersonics seems rather silly, and even has a very silly design scheme (I still love it).  It's not too silly to the people who fly it, the people who are supported by it, or its targets.

pulsing a laser weapon makes it more challenging technically.

Challenging in terms of game mechanics or the technology of the gameworld?

More importantly, i really can't see why lasers should overlap with autocannons and missiles as cluster weapons. While it might add to energy weapons category, it does not add to the system overall.
Any other type of laser should do something no other weapon does but what isn't too complex.

If adding an energy-based cluster weapon doesn't add to the game, why have two cluster type weapons in the first place?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
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Empyrus

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Re: "Next Generation" weapons
« Reply #29 on: 29 March 2018, 21:14:58 »
Challenging in terms of game mechanics or the technology of the gameworld?

If adding an energy-based cluster weapon doesn't add to the game, why have two cluster type weapons in the first place?
Technologically, engineering-wise.
Yeah, sure, it probably is easy within BTverse... but given that BT seems to run on nonsensoleum at times, i'll ignore technobabble and in-universe point of view when it comes to how difficult something is.

---

One idea i had for modifying missiles was to make them non-cluster weapons, or leave only one cluster missile weapon. But i can't figure out reasonable way to fit this to current rules, not yet anyway. Even with revised rules, they don't fit in well, and kinda overlap with direct damage weapons now, so damned if you do, damned if you don't.


The reason for two different cluster weapons is that ACs and missiles function ultimately rather differently. Long range missiles and rockets allow for indirect fire and special munitions, and short range missiles fire even more clusters along with special munitions. But missiles are relatively weak, and long range missiles even more so. SRMs are really intended to be dedicated crit seekers, against weakened armor.
Autocannons lack tricks of missiles, but they have raw power. They can't concentrate it like Gauss rifles or PPCs, and they aren't as effective as SRMs for crit seeking, but they can do both with longer range than SRMs, and at distance, with more raw damage than LRMs. ACs punch through armor, and with some luck they also cause crits, but their primary purpose is weakening overall armor levels quickly.

The problem with laser clusters would be that they'd overlap with SRMs when it comes to range (lasers are short to mid range in my system), and overall fall in between SRMs and LRMs/ACs. I figure that there should be distances where there are missing or only weak niches, for additional tactical options. Say, you position a 'Mech so that enemy can't hit it with SRMs, but it isn't far away enough to make spending LRM or AC ammo attractive option against the mid-range target due to other target options.
In-universe, this would create demand for further weapons development, writing just should come up with clever ways why the niche never gets filled properly...

 

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