Author Topic: Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?  (Read 1867 times)

Metallgewitter

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Re: Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?
« Reply #60 on: 05 May 2024, 14:35:13 »
Honestly Xin Sheng occuring without any political resistance is the most unrealistic thing about battletech. I can accept giant walking combat mechs being the msot effective military combatant, FTL travel, and all sorts of iother things, but the idea that a ruler can impliment MASSIVE and huge reforms to a state, and that everyone, EVERYONE will not only go along with them, but love him for them, that breaks suspension of disbelief.

Best explanation would probably be that Romano Liao was the previous ruler and anyone looks sane compared to her. Of course Romano's rulership for all the brutality it had saved the Confederation from collapsing. Though I also find it somewhat strange how Sun Tzu was able to basically reform the entire appartatus and nobody cared. For example Theodore breathed new life into the Black Dragon society with his reforms despite all their successes and Thomas Marik had to navigate a labyrinth of political actions just to try to get a stronger central state and military

BrianDavion

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Re: Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?
« Reply #61 on: 05 May 2024, 14:56:33 »
exactly, as I said realisticly that doesn't happen. The Black Dragon's rise was, from a socio-political prespective, pretty logical. Any time political reform happens it will be inevitably be resisted because the current system works for someone.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2024, 14:59:27 by BrianDavion »
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Metallgewitter

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Re: Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?
« Reply #62 on: 05 May 2024, 18:00:16 »
exactly, as I said realisticly that doesn't happen. The Black Dragon's rise was, from a socio-political prespective, pretty logical. Any time political reform happens it will be inevitably be resisted because the current system works for someone.

the only explanation I would have is what Candace said to Sun-Tzu after she had killed his parents "In the confederation your word is the law". When you have a nation that has been indoctrinated into following it's leader without question you might get less backlash. But then we come again into the Mary Sue territory. Sun Tzu often felt like a Mary Sue in his actions. Like attacking a memberstate of the LEague and even having bio weapons deployed (yes that was his sister but come one. No repercussion beyond a "keep your sister in check?"). Or making the Taurian Concordat his puppet without so much of a "no thank you"?

BrianDavion

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Re: Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?
« Reply #63 on: 05 May 2024, 18:15:12 »
It really did, one or two of those things was fine but by the end of the FCCW it had gotten to the point of absurd
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?
« Reply #64 on: 05 May 2024, 18:36:08 »
The way in which he broke off his engagement to Isis Marik and somehow didn't kick off an international incident was absurd.
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butchbird

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Re: Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?
« Reply #65 on: 05 May 2024, 19:05:06 »
On Xin Sheng...

Where COULD the backlash come from? All levels and offices of the capellan political apparatus were thoroughly under the thumb of Romano, opportunitys to organize any form of resistance was completely curtailed before Sun Tzu's rule. They were in no position to lash back when xin sheng came.

The mask? Sun Tzu's father was responsible for it before his rule, then an aging bureaucrat, with very little to gain from any sort of opposition, was named in his stead. Now yes, there was a rogue director with a short tenure, but thats the point, she was offed before she could become a threat.

The CCAF? With the reforms during Romano's reign, any possibility for a high level officer to form a personnal power block was basically curtailed.

The Warrior Houses? Ion Rush was a "suntzuist" from the start.

The prefecture and the house of scions? I don't remember anything much interesting about them during Sun Tzu's rule but its safe to assume they were in too precarious a position following the 4th SW to become a threat to the chancellor's position and wouldn't really have the time to organize themselves to become one in the short time span between Romano's assassination and the start of the Xin Sheng movement.

The nobility? A probably very large part of the nobility could do no other then keep their opposition to themselves less they be visited by the tax collector for years of neglecting their economical duties to the state (tax collecting, or lack thereoff, on the nobles in the confederation is as much a political tool as anything else).

And never forget how a fad can take the world by storm. If its well sold to the people and that there are no alternatives (for much if not all of the media consumed whithin the confederation is state sponsored), it would actually be rather easy to pass it with stunning approval.

The people? History teaches that the masses rarely lash back at liberalization (for, besides the whole "Han Pride" aspect of Xin SHeng, from what I remember of Sun Tzu's reforms, it was pretty much that: liberalisation of the socio-economic aspects of the state) when under a "totalitarian regime" (well...actually I'd say never, can't think of an example on the spot).

And as for "the current system working for someone", just whom benefitted from the romanoist system, besides Romano herself (and perhaps her thuggee supporters, whom weren't that much of a thing as yet back then)?

So pray tell, where could opposition to Xin Sheng come from? The thuggees? Now THAT would be confounding in disbelief (hope I'm using "confounding" rightly, but you get the point).

*Add-on*

Okay, an example of "the people" revolting against liberalization. So there was the Vendée during the french revolution, but much of their support was as much if not more due to distinct cultural aspects of the Breton people compared to the rest of France as anything else. Now the CC DOES have regions with cultural differences from the "norm", but they hadn't been re-absorbed by the time Xin Sheng kicked in.

*Another Add-On*

Again with "revolting against liberalization", this time in Spain. Now I don't remember all the specifics, but when the liberals enacted their reform forcing the church to sell off their "common lands" and instead of creating a middle-class like they thought and instead favorised big landowners (inevitably igniting the traditionalist, or Carlist movement ), the fact was that this was a VERY BADLY EXECUTED reform. Mary-sues don't enact bad reforms.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2024, 19:40:02 by butchbird »

BrianDavion

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Re: Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?
« Reply #66 on: 05 May 2024, 21:12:50 »
Quote
And as for "the current system working for someone", just whom benefitted from the romanoist system, besides Romano herself (and perhaps her thuggee supporters, whom weren't that much of a thing as yet back then)?

So pray tell, where could opposition to Xin Sheng come from? The thuggees? Now THAT would be confounding in disbelief (hope I'm using "confounding" rightly, but you get the point).

Except SunTzu Liao didn't just "change how things where under his mother" (although keep in mind there are people who will rise to the top, or a comfortable position in any system who won't like change) STL did numerous things, just off the top of my head he changed the ranking system of the military, he changed the FLAG (and given he replaced the Katana with a Dao he basicly threw out an important family symbol "cause we need to be chinese!") he also implimented safe guards for servitors, which would certainly upset some people (one only need to look to the history of american civil war to see what happens when you tell people they can't abuse a opressed population as badly anymore)
Hell we saw in one of the sourcebooks (wanna say the sourcebook titled "inner sphere" but it might have been "shattered sphere") it mention that the capcon in the 3060s was developing a racism problem.
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butchbird

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Re: Political instability in the Capellan Confederation?
« Reply #67 on: 06 May 2024, 19:33:37 »
Well, I reckon the changes in the rank structure of the CCAF would probably be well received. Not really feeling like wiping out a book comparing the old and new ranks, but I'm pretty sure there are more after STL then before, which means more pay grades...and I'd be surprised senior colonels would frown on being recognized as "true generals".

The flag...I don't really understand how that would be such a big deal. Now while the katana points back to an interesting character in history (at least I suppose...that's a nod to Franco Liao, right?). Might be a cultural difference, but to me, a flag is just a flag, as long as no one uses it as a door mat or somesuch degrading symbolism. Heck, there's a couple of flags my people have flown that I'd rather be our official one rather then the current one. While I'm at it, the one FASA made up for crimson skies was kinda neater too.

So those are mostly minor cosmetic changes. There's a symbolic, sure, but nothing worth fighting over, and like I said, there's clear advantages (pay grades!) with some of those minor changes.

Get the point on servitors, but then those sort of changes can take time to be fully implemented. I mean, look at all the ruckuss over slavery during the Vienna Congress of 1815, and most of those whom acknowledged the principles laid forward dragged things well into the mid 19th century. What's more, while it's true we don't exactly know upo to what point servitors benefit the capellan economy, it is doubtfull their impact is as big as it was in certain states before the american civil war... So good point, but we don't really have evidence it would be a critical one. Besides, it probably also ties in with "nobility tax collecting" anyway.

Catch my interest with the racism problem...sifted through shattered sphere, found nothing on the subject unfortunately, guess somebody else could perhaps fill us in more thouroughly?

But something did catch my eye in shattered sphere: It seems anti-liaoist agitators were very active on some poorer world before the benefits of Xin Sheng started touching the masses. Can't argue against good infrastructure .