BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Player Boards => Fan Designs and Rules => Battle Armor => Topic started by: idea weenie on 15 February 2023, 18:36:17
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Little more than a muscle suit, some armor, environmental protection, and a few kilos of gear, this Battle armor is designed to be worn by Mech and vehicle crewmen to help them survive traumatic damage that penetrates their unit's armor.
Costing 325,000 per person this suit is fairly rare in the Inner Sphere, but the manufacturer hopes that survivor bias will lead to increased sales. The problem is that some people might think that wearing this Battlearmor leads to higher medical needs for a unit, without realizing that injured personnel mean surviving personnel.
The other detail is that the mounting unit has to have the crew spaces resized to handle the battlearmor-protected crew. A half of a ton has to be allocated to each crew member to reflect the higher mass needed by the protection plus protecting the vehicle or Mech from the suit wearer.
Equipment and reasoning:
- Armored Gloves - allows the crew to still use hand-operated equipment, while helping to protect the wearer from shrapnel damage
- Jump Jet - sometimes the crewman has to leave the vehicle quickly, and the Jump Jet is for this. Or if the wearer has to scale difficult terrain
- Mission Equipment Storage - various gear to help the pilot survive
- Space Operations Adaptation - reflecting a variety of equipment to cover survival in strange environments, such as fire, toxic smoke, high or low heat, potentially also helping vs concussive effects on the unit that would normally cause the crew to be knocked out
- Vibro-shovel - not sure, but a shovel is always useful
Trade-off made:
- Speed vs Mission equipment - The option was only 20 kg of mission equipment to get a ground speed of 2 (and no Jump capability). I decided that getting the troopers to survive would be easier on 95 kg of equipment at speed 1 (ground and Jump vs only 20 kg of equipment at ground speed 2 (and no Jump)
- Extra Life support/Batteries - decided not to use these as the troopers are supposed to be picked up after the battle fairly quickly, instead of needing to survive longer in the wilderness. The suits are commonly plugged into the vehicle's power grid to keep their batteries and Life Support topped up.
- ECM/Probes/sensor dispensers - the purpose of this BA is to keep the wearer alive, not get further stuck in
- Armor - armor was maxed to deal with Mech-scale Machine Gun fire. But it only carries enough to deal with one shot.
- Jump Jets - only used one to help the wearer scale difficult terrain a bit easier, or get out of a damaged vehicle faster
Survival & Environmentally protected Powered Exoskeleton
Type: New
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Tech Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Chassis Type: Biped
Weight Class: Ultra Light/PA(L)/Exoskeleton
Maximum Weight: 400 kg
Battle Value: 37
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: Yes/Yes/Yes/No (the suit is capable of doing so, but the wearer is not recommended)
Equipment Slots Mass
Chassis: 80 kg
Motive System:
Ground MP: 1 0 kg
Jump MP: 1 25 kg
Manipulators:
Left Arm: Armored Gloves 0 kg
Right Arm: Armored Gloves 0 kg
Armor: Standard (Basic) 0 100 kg
Armor Value: 3 (Trooper) (2 from armor, 1 from the crewmember inside it)
Slots
Weapons and Equipment Location (Capacity) Mass
Space Operations Adaptation Body 1 100 kg
Mission Equipment Storage (95 kg) Body 1 95 kg
Vibro-Shovel None 0 0 kg
(Got the motivation for this idea from the descriptions of the wounds in this story (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-fiction/battletech-novel-odyssey-irregular-posting-of-chapters/msg1909119/#msg1909119) )
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This is beyond your use cases, but it might be good to have some capacity for anti-infantry weapons in case a boarding op scenario starts. The firedrake needler is particularly low weight and effective here.
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The Firedrake is probably the most "war crime waiting to happen" system ever... ::)
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Also if it’s meant as stuff vehicle crews wear it’s probably not a good idea to have a somewhat fixed gun mounted where it will catch on stuff inside the tank. Armored gloves still allow infantry weapons and they can be kept out of the way when not needed.
It’s always bothered me that infantry don’t use something like these full time.
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You know, it's worth noting the SLDF aerospace pilot's uniform was described as being an exoskeleton.
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The Firedrake is probably the most "war crime waiting to happen" system ever... ::)
Let's see, a weapon with less range than a shotgun, in the heavy weapons classification, that is useless against armored and hardened targets, but lights flammable things on fire while inflicting grievous wounds on insufficiently protected flesh?
Yeah, it's a war-crime device. MOreso, since it was invented by people being invaded by armored opponents whose ground pounding forces tend to involve lots of powered armor that it's completely valueless agianst.
but it works GREAT for wiping out those troublesome peasant farmers and burning their farm down, or erasing that irritating bunch of redneck settlers who don't have access to military weapons or armor.
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This is beyond your use cases, but it might be good to have some capacity for anti-infantry weapons in case a boarding op scenario starts. The firedrake needler is particularly low weight and effective here.
The 95 kg of equipment could be used for some sort of anti-personnel weapon, or whatever the unit commander decides is best.
Also if it’s meant as stuff vehicle crews wear it’s probably not a good idea to have a somewhat fixed gun mounted where it will catch on stuff inside the tank. Armored gloves still allow infantry weapons and they can be kept out of the way when not needed.
It’s always bothered me that infantry don’t use something like these full time.
This was my other idea. When getting out of a vehicle that has taken damage, having extra stuff sticking out would be a bad idea as the wearer will likely accept destruction of those items in order to save their own life. So this suit would be basically a backpack (removable?) and some protection wrapped around the wearer.
For infantry using these, since they are 325,000 each that would make a 28-strong Foot Platoon cost an extra 9.1 million, or about twice the price of a Light Mech.
Now one upgrade that would be good is changing the armor from standard to Fire-Resistant (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fire-Resistant_Armor). That way even if the unit gets hit by an inferno or the fuel supply ignites, the crew don't die immediately. Nothing quite like a Firestarter finding out that the target vehicle has fireproof crews.
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Let's see, a weapon with less range than a shotgun, in the heavy weapons classification, that is useless against armored and hardened targets, but lights flammable things on fire while inflicting grievous wounds on insufficiently protected flesh?
Yeah, it's a war-crime device. MOreso, since it was invented by people being invaded by armored opponents whose ground pounding forces tend to involve lots of powered armor that it's completely valueless agianst.
The battle armor version of the firedrake does a point of battlemech scale damage, making it basically function as a half-machine gun in damage, weight, and range, with a 'bonus' ability to do horrific damage to unarmored infantry.
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You know, it's worth noting the SLDF aerospace pilot's uniform was described as being an exoskeleton.
I always wondered about that a powered Aerospace suit to counter Gs
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The battle armor version of the firedrake does a point of battlemech scale damage, making it basically function as a half-machine gun in damage, weight, and range, with a 'bonus' ability to do horrific damage to unarmored infantry.
I'll give you a choice as a quartermaster.
On this hand, you can mount a machinegun, we have lots of parts to maintain those and the ammunition's been in production for well over a thousand years, so plenty in the supply line, it has 30% more range, does twice as much damage to armored opponents like the enemies you're actually facing, and with over a thousand years of development, it simply. doesn't. Fail as long as there's ammo. It's also more accurate.
OR, you can have a Firedrake to take on an enemy (on either border) who makes extensive use of powered armor that your firedrake effectively can't touch, but you'll need special requisitions to get the ammunition since it's a new system, regular ammunition isn't made overseas, your enemy isn't making it, so there's no way to restock.
OR, if you REALLY need the fire...how about a nice flamer? Same range, more heat, more damage...and we've had those in stock for well over five hundred years so it's easy to obtain spares and maintenance parts and more importantly, anyone who's passed a basic armorers course can do the maintenance on it (like the machinegun)
OR you can have a firedrake, which is new tech,just developed in the 3050s, requires new manuals and special order maintenance parts, with special order ammunition that isn't compatible with literally anything else we have in a supply system that covers 300 some odd worlds.
and is basically a less effective flamer optimized for use as a terror weapon against civilians.
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Or, you know, pick a Sniper Rifle that does more than 0.60 damage and get the Heavy Burst Special at ridiculous range... ::)
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I'll give you a choice as a quartermaster.
Well, on a heavier design (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battle-armor/most-capable-marines/), I used both (H)MGs and Firedrakes.
But on this design, the MG (100kg) and Flamer (150kg) simply don't fit. The Firedrake has the virtue of being the smallest repeat fire weapon doing vehicle scale damage.
I do agree that greater maintenance/logistic difficulties is realistic. Ammunition that spontaneously combusts on contact with air is inherently iffy. There are however plenty of examples of armies taking in and effectively using new weapons on a few-years timescale.
Or, you know, pick a Sniper Rifle that does more than 0.60 damage and get the Heavy Burst Special at ridiculous range... ::)
Also an option, but it seems not an exclusive one.
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Well, on a heavier design (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battle-armor/most-capable-marines/), I used both (H)MGs and Firedrakes.
But on this design, the MG (100kg) and Flamer (150kg) simply don't fit. The Firedrake has the virtue of being the smallest repeat fire weapon doing vehicle scale damage.
I do agree that greater maintenance/logistic difficulties is realistic. Ammunition that spontaneously combusts on contact with air is inherently iffy. There are however plenty of examples of armies taking in and effectively using new weapons on a few-years timescale.
Also an option, but it seems not an exclusive one.
NOw see, I tend to prefer NOT to be standing in my opponent's boots before I try to kill him.
Just a thing, y'know, having the OPTION to engage at range is a nice option to have, nicer, than needing to get intimate with him before pulling the trigger.
especially if he, too, has a weapon that can hurt and/or kill me, and do so at a distance I can't answer because I dumped my mass fraction into a 40mm machinegun with less range than a submachine gun.
call me crazy, but when a machine pistol outranges your heavy weapons, it's time to execute some weapons designers...and maybe some 'tactical planners' who approved procurement.
why? because they're either incompetent or they're traitors, and only hits do damage.
The next part, is your hypergolic ammo-which presents more hazard to your own troops, than the enemy, since it is MUCH easier to accidentally ignite inside the track on a bumpy road, or in conditions where nobody is actively shooting yet.
PFC Snuffy can kill himself and his buddies just by being clumsy? yeah, there's a problem here in procurement.
Out of character, you know what drove the Firedrake? what really drove it?
Villain dysfunction. The "Lyrans" were aligned with Katy when the thing was introduced into the game in HB House Steiner, so naturally just to UNDERSCORE that the Lyrans were the bad guys, they were given a massive cannon that knocks the 'mech firing it on its ass, and a weapon custom-made for committing domestic atrocities to really show the Steiners were the bad guys.
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Villain dysfunction. The "Lyrans" were aligned with Katy when the thing was introduced into the game in HB House Steiner, so naturally just to UNDERSCORE that the Lyrans were the bad guys, they were given a massive cannon that knocks the 'mech firing it on its ass, and a weapon custom-made for committing domestic atrocities to really show the Steiners were the bad guys.
You may be right---I'm no expert here.
W.r.t. the proper use of battle armor, deploying them in open field combat in the presence of competent opposition seems like a waste since battle armor are super vulnerable to AE damage. Given that's not a part of their mission profile, choosing short range weapons for in-facility combat and optimizing for an anti-infantry role seems reasonable, since those are roles that the giant stompy robots can't handle.
I have no idea how to handle hyper golic ammo except that if I was designing it, I would try to seal the hypergolic parts inside a shell. Needlers don't have shells in my understanding, but maybe some soft seal technique exists?
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You may be right---I'm no expert here.
W.r.t. the proper use of battle armor, deploying them in open field combat in the presence of competent opposition seems like a waste since battle armor are super vulnerable to AE damage. Given that's not a part of their mission profile, choosing short range weapons for in-facility combat and optimizing for an anti-infantry role seems reasonable, since those are roles that the giant stompy robots can't handle.
I have no idea how to handle hyper golic ammo except that if I was designing it, I would try to seal the hypergolic parts inside a shell. Needlers don't have shells in my understanding, but maybe some soft seal technique exists?
I would suppose so, and it's probably made of handwavium, since the whole concept is dysfunctional as all get-out otherwise. (Your spare ammo is otherwise exposed to the environment and likely to go off in the pouch-would YOU volunteer to carry it into combat?)
point being, whether you're talking tabletop or pragmatically, the Firedrake's not a combat weapon-it's only safe to use when you've already got control of the situation, and 'safe' is only a very, very, very, relative term.
It is, however a very 'dramatic' weapon for showcasing that the government that's buying it is an oppressive, corrupt, insane, and somewhat incompetent evil empire.
ergo, it's a 'villain decay' weapon done to a theme, not something that makes sense either on tabletop, or in anything BUT a dramatic way to showcase how many atrocities your badguy is willing to do to civilians.
On a practical level, the base writeup is a weapon that nobody in their right mind would procure, much less issue, including evil empires. It's only really matched on that score by the HVAC, since even an HMG has SOME margin of safety to use.
It burns up anything that might be worth capturing, but not as efficiently as a proper flamethrower, and based on the description, those needle fragments will reignite when exposed to air or broken after firing, making occupation of an area where it's been used...problematic for the occupiers, so it's not a good weapon for either offense, or defense, even against infantry (unless you LIKE lugging fire extinguishers around for every man in your formation).
as for your other point, consider this:
Weapons advancements should INCREASE your tactical flexibility. While most suit combat is close urban, there are still situations where you CAN take a longer shot, and should....unless your weapons don't allow you to, because you have to be at tongue-kissing range to fire them.
My infantry don't tend to 'camp' because moving is better than being an easily indexed target. I have driven other players to distraction by not sitting still to be slow-cooked.
This includes how I handle BA. I prioritize movement over armor because most of the time, you can't put enough armor on a suit to be worth it, but you CAN control range and engagement if you have more mobility, and for the Heavies that camp in a building, there's artillery or the other units I'm supporting if I can't make a shot at 3 hexes. (Or infernoes. I love me some infernoes for suits.)
point being that even within the engagement envelope? I'm still able to engage with more fire that HITS using machine gun, or small laser, than with HMG or Firedrakes on the other side, and only hits that hit, do damage unless you're going for AOE, in which case that's what radios and indirect fire, or inferno SRM, or similar systems are for.
oh, and if I REALLY want to light things on fire? a Flamer has 30% more range.
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A few things I don't understand here.
This includes how I handle BA. I prioritize movement over armor because most of the time, you can't put enough armor on a suit to be worth it, but you CAN control range and engagement if you have more mobility, and for the Heavies that camp in a building, there's artillery or the other units I'm supporting if I can't make a shot at 3 hexes. (Or infernoes. I love me some infernoes for suits.)
How do you control range and engagement if even fast BA is slow compared to other open field units?
point being that even within the engagement envelope? I'm still able to engage with more fire that HITS using machine gun, or small laser, than with HMG or Firedrakes on the other side, and only hits that hit, do damage unless you're going for AOE, in which case that's what radios and indirect fire, or inferno SRM, or similar systems are for.
Why do you think the Firedrake hits less often than an MG?
oh, and if I REALLY want to light things on fire? a Flamer has 30% more range.
Why do you think the flamer has more range? The Flamer has a range of 1/2/3 on TM page 346 the same as the BA needler on TM page 347?
W.r.t. tactical flexibility, the low weight of the Firedrake gives it a reason to be considered an advance. You can have 3 Firedrakes for the weight of the flamer, allowing you to do 9d6 (~=31.5) damage vs. conventional infantry rather than 3d6 (~=10.5), and allowing you to do 3 damage vs. BA armor instead of 2. A flamer isn't mechanically obsolete on BA simply because it does 2 points of heat damage instead of 1 point of damage.
W.r.t. occasional long range shots in facilities, I agree they exist, but there are substantial tradeoffs here. The only light weight (<=50kg) long range weapons available are AP weapon, OS LRM1, OS SRM1, and RL2. I default towards an AP weapon, due to the capability to fire multiple times and dual use potential in relatively close combat as well.
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I would prefer the Firedrake too. Or a light mg, if that fits.
I would only use 10 kg of mission equipment. Then add a modular weapon mount to fit either a Firedrake, an LMG or a micro grenade launcher.
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I would prefer the Firedrake too. Or a light mg, if that fits.
I would only use 10 kg of mission equipment. Then add a modular weapon mount to fit either a Firedrake, an LMG or a micro grenade launcher.
This is not a PA designed to attack, it is an armored case to help crew survive destruction of their unit, and have a slightly easier time getting back to friendly lines. Fully one quarter of its mass is devoted to protecting the wearer from a hostile environment (the Space Adaptation Gear). If it was for attack purposes, I would have changed that out for a ground speed of 2 (also taking up 100 kg).
This PA only has a speed of 1, and the Firedrake (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Firedrake_Support_Needler) while massing 25 kg has an extreme range of 80 meters (3 hexes). Any Foot Infantry unit with a weapon of 4 hexes extreme range with anti-armor capability (or just enough guns to do Battlemech-scale damage) will be able to pick off the wearer, or the platoon can just stay out of range by moving at a speed of 1 away from it. The Light machine Gun/grenade launcher is likely the best way to do it, as long as the gun can be folded down to fit in the mission compartment. Anything sticking out from the armor will likely get ripped off when the wearer decides that being in a vehicle that is on fire is a bad idea.
Personally, I'd want the equivalent of a collapsible Laser rifle with single and burst fire capability, or a submachinegun-sized laser weapon with similar capabilities. The collapsible or smaller weapon can be easily stored in the compartment, and the laser weapon just needs a battery charge to be kept ready (likely linked in with the suit, where the suit is recharged from the vehicle). Burst fire is used to keep enemy infantry at range rather than trying to close with the trooper. Since it is using armored gloves, the weapon has to be human-carryable, instead of a hard-mounted weapon using the armor's strength.
Going from sarna, here is a list of infantry weapons that have the same or more maximum range than the Firedrake (80 meters), and weigh equal or less (25 kg):
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ceres_Arms_Stalker_Sniper_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ceres_Arms_Stalker_Sniper_Rifle) - 1500 meters, 9 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ceres_Arms_Striker_Carbine (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ceres_Arms_Striker_Carbine) - 275 meters, 3 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coventry_Handrocket_Gyrojet_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coventry_Handrocket_Gyrojet_Pistol) - 180 meters, 3.1 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/David_Light_Gauss_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/David_Light_Gauss_Rifle) - 1535 meters, 18 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragonsbane_Disposable_Pulse_Laser (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragonsbane_Disposable_Pulse_Laser) - 1250 meters, 7 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ebony_Assault_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ebony_Assault_Rifle) - (N/A, for MoC only)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grand_Mauler_Gauss_Cannon (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grand_Mauler_Gauss_Cannon) - 1000 meters, 14 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hawk_Eagle_Auto-Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hawk_Eagle_Auto-Pistol) - 100 meters, .5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellbore_Assault_Laser (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellbore_Assault_Laser) - 1100 meters, 10 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Intek_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Intek_Laser_Rifle) - 1200 meters, 5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/KA-23_Subgun (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/KA-23_Subgun) - (N/A, for DEST only)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser_Rifle) - 1100 meters, 5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M%26G_Service_Automatic (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M%26G_Service_Automatic) - 85 meters, .65 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M42B_Rifle_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M42B_Rifle_System) - 430 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M61A_Laser_Rifle_Combat_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M61A_Laser_Rifle_Combat_System) - 1100 meters, 9 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magna_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magna_Laser_Rifle) - 1000 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magnum_Revolver (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magnum_Revolver) - 100 meters, .5kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mandrake_Hold-Out_Gauss_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mandrake_Hold-Out_Gauss_Pistol) - 80 meters, .1 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Martial_Eagle_Machine_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Martial_Eagle_Machine_Pistol) - 100 meters, 1.8 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marx_XX_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marx_XX_Laser_Rifle) - 1150 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_1200_Light_Support_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_1200_Light_Support_System) - 740 meters, 11 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_960_Assault_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_960_Assault_System) - 740 meters, 10.5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_IIC_Infantry_Assault_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_IIC_Infantry_Assault_System) - 1400 meters, 12 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Maxell_PL-10_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Maxell_PL-10_Laser_Rifle) - 1050 meters, 6.5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Minolta_9000_Advanced_Sniper_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Minolta_9000_Advanced_Sniper_System) - 730 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mk._1_Light_Disposable_AA_Weapon (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mk._1_Light_Disposable_AA_Weapon) - 650 meters, 5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nakjima_Laser_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nakjima_Laser_Pistol) - 250 meters, 1 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nambu_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nambu_Pistol) - 110 meters, .45 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_King_Gyroslug_Carbine (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_King_Gyroslug_Carbine) - 285 meters, 5.2 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Starfire_Extended_Range_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Starfire_Extended_Range_Laser_Rifle) - 1300 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sternsnacht_Python_Auto-Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sternsnacht_Python_Auto-Pistol) - 80 meters, .75 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sunbeam_Laser_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sunbeam_Laser_Pistol) - 200 meters, 1 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sunbeam_Mark_XXI_Nova_Laser_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sunbeam_Mark_XXI_Nova_Laser_Pistol) - 100 meters, 1.5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunderstroke_Gauss_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunderstroke_Gauss_Rifle) - 700 meters, 7 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunderstroke_II_Gauss_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunderstroke_II_Gauss_Rifle) - 850 meters, 6.5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/TK_Enforcer_Semi-Automatic (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/TK_Enforcer_Semi-Automatic) - 140 meters, 1.6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tsunami_Heavy_Gauss_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tsunami_Heavy_Gauss_Rifle) - 1070 meters, 12.4 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/White_Dwarf_Hold-Out_Laser_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/White_Dwarf_Hold-Out_Laser_Pistol) - 150 meters, .25 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zeus_Heavy_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zeus_Heavy_Rifle) - 420 meters, 8 kg
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Shrapnel is where the BEST small arms are... 8)
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This is not a PA designed to attack, it is an armored case to help crew survive destruction of their unit, and have a slightly easier time getting back to friendly lines. Fully one quarter of its mass is devoted to protecting the wearer from a hostile environment (the Space Adaptation Gear). If it was for attack purposes, I would have changed that out for a ground speed of 2 (also taking up 100 kg).
This PA only has a speed of 1, and the Firedrake (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Firedrake_Support_Needler) while massing 25 kg has an extreme range of 80 meters (3 hexes). Any Foot Infantry unit with a weapon of 4 hexes extreme range with anti-armor capability (or just enough guns to do Battlemech-scale damage) will be able to pick off the wearer, or the platoon can just stay out of range by moving at a speed of 1 away from it. The Light machine Gun/grenade launcher is likely the best way to do it, as long as the gun can be folded down to fit in the mission compartment. Anything sticking out from the armor will likely get ripped off when the wearer decides that being in a vehicle that is on fire is a bad idea.
Personally, I'd want the equivalent of a collapsible Laser rifle with single and burst fire capability, or a submachinegun-sized laser weapon with similar capabilities. The collapsible or smaller weapon can be easily stored in the compartment, and the laser weapon just needs a battery charge to be kept ready (likely linked in with the suit, where the suit is recharged from the vehicle). Burst fire is used to keep enemy infantry at range rather than trying to close with the trooper. Since it is using armored gloves, the weapon has to be human-carryable, instead of a hard-mounted weapon using the armor's strength.
Going from sarna, here is a list of infantry weapons that have the same or more maximum range than the Firedrake (80 meters), and weigh equal or less (25 kg):
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ceres_Arms_Stalker_Sniper_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ceres_Arms_Stalker_Sniper_Rifle) - 1500 meters, 9 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ceres_Arms_Striker_Carbine (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ceres_Arms_Striker_Carbine) - 275 meters, 3 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coventry_Handrocket_Gyrojet_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coventry_Handrocket_Gyrojet_Pistol) - 180 meters, 3.1 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/David_Light_Gauss_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/David_Light_Gauss_Rifle) - 1535 meters, 18 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragonsbane_Disposable_Pulse_Laser (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dragonsbane_Disposable_Pulse_Laser) - 1250 meters, 7 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ebony_Assault_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ebony_Assault_Rifle) - (N/A, for MoC only)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grand_Mauler_Gauss_Cannon (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Grand_Mauler_Gauss_Cannon) - 1000 meters, 14 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hawk_Eagle_Auto-Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hawk_Eagle_Auto-Pistol) - 100 meters, .5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellbore_Assault_Laser (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hellbore_Assault_Laser) - 1100 meters, 10 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Intek_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Intek_Laser_Rifle) - 1200 meters, 5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/KA-23_Subgun (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/KA-23_Subgun) - (N/A, for DEST only)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser_Rifle) - 1100 meters, 5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M%26G_Service_Automatic (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M%26G_Service_Automatic) - 85 meters, .65 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M42B_Rifle_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M42B_Rifle_System) - 430 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M61A_Laser_Rifle_Combat_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/M61A_Laser_Rifle_Combat_System) - 1100 meters, 9 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magna_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magna_Laser_Rifle) - 1000 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magnum_Revolver (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Magnum_Revolver) - 100 meters, .5kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mandrake_Hold-Out_Gauss_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mandrake_Hold-Out_Gauss_Pistol) - 80 meters, .1 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Martial_Eagle_Machine_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Martial_Eagle_Machine_Pistol) - 100 meters, 1.8 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marx_XX_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marx_XX_Laser_Rifle) - 1150 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_1200_Light_Support_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_1200_Light_Support_System) - 740 meters, 11 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_960_Assault_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_960_Assault_System) - 740 meters, 10.5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_IIC_Infantry_Assault_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mauser_IIC_Infantry_Assault_System) - 1400 meters, 12 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Maxell_PL-10_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Maxell_PL-10_Laser_Rifle) - 1050 meters, 6.5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Minolta_9000_Advanced_Sniper_System (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Minolta_9000_Advanced_Sniper_System) - 730 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mk._1_Light_Disposable_AA_Weapon (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mk._1_Light_Disposable_AA_Weapon) - 650 meters, 5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nakjima_Laser_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nakjima_Laser_Pistol) - 250 meters, 1 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nambu_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nambu_Pistol) - 110 meters, .45 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_King_Gyroslug_Carbine (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_King_Gyroslug_Carbine) - 285 meters, 5.2 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Starfire_Extended_Range_Laser_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Starfire_Extended_Range_Laser_Rifle) - 1300 meters, 6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sternsnacht_Python_Auto-Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sternsnacht_Python_Auto-Pistol) - 80 meters, .75 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sunbeam_Laser_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sunbeam_Laser_Pistol) - 200 meters, 1 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sunbeam_Mark_XXI_Nova_Laser_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sunbeam_Mark_XXI_Nova_Laser_Pistol) - 100 meters, 1.5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunderstroke_Gauss_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunderstroke_Gauss_Rifle) - 700 meters, 7 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunderstroke_II_Gauss_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunderstroke_II_Gauss_Rifle) - 850 meters, 6.5 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/TK_Enforcer_Semi-Automatic (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/TK_Enforcer_Semi-Automatic) - 140 meters, 1.6 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tsunami_Heavy_Gauss_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tsunami_Heavy_Gauss_Rifle) - 1070 meters, 12.4 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/White_Dwarf_Hold-Out_Laser_Pistol (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/White_Dwarf_Hold-Out_Laser_Pistol) - 150 meters, .25 kg
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zeus_Heavy_Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zeus_Heavy_Rifle) - 420 meters, 8 kg
Now then, here you go addressing the mission instead of looking for ALL CONQUERING FIREPOWER!!!!!!.
Here's a hint for my fellow-currently-civilians; we don't issue tankers full infantry kit for a reason. It's the same reason we were issuing M-4s for armored crew instead of M-16A2's or M-203's (or, going back even further, why we were giving them M-3 grease guns instead of M-14's!)
The tank crewman is not an infantryman, if he's forced to fight as infantry, something is already drastically wrong.
Can the audience guess what it is?
(If you said "Because the tank is knocked out and he's on foot" you're correct.)
The small-arms aren't there to storm a beach without that twenty to seventy tons of tracked death machine with a main cannon, they're there as a sort of 'well if I can escape capture temporarily by shooting somebody I can'.
IOW you can go completely without weapons at all beyond a Sternsacht or Rorynex and fill the role, provided the rest of the suit is built to provide things like environmental protection, waste recycling and basic medical support (Science fiction super-drugs to let the wearer run for longer, and a deep reserve battery so the suit can run for longer without a charge.)
Here's what your crewmen get with something like a firedrake instead of...y'know, better batteries or a solar/kinetic recharger or maybe mission gear:
WHEN the enemy catches up because you've run out of power for our armor, they're going to shoot you in the head and tell their CO you 'wouldn't stop fighting and/or refused to surrender'.
Why? because you're using a weapon that makes people, especially infantry people, hate you more than they hate your colleagues.
A lot more. Needlers themselves, are weapons meant to inflict horrible wounds. This one couples that with setting those wounds on fire at the aid station when the fragments are exposed to air by the field medic.
Having one will guarantee your enemy is going to go with "Maybe we torture him before we kill the son of a bitch, or maybe we just kill him" rather than "Maybe we rough him up a little bit on the way to holding" versus "We'll observe the ares conventions on prisoner handling and feed the guy/treat his wounds."
There's a reason in the real world that we stopped issuing Willie Pete grenades, it's because they do lasting, repeated damage and it makes it really hard to get our POW's back alive and in only as many pieces as they were in when they were captured.
If you care enough about your tankers to give them PAL suits, you're invested in getting them back alive when the tank stops working.
visit a burn-ward sometime, then imagine someone you love being in that condition because of some ****** with a flesh-shredding flamethrower that leaves combustible fragments in their body. burns are a nasty wound, needlers also create nasty wounds even when they don't have self-igniting ammunition that just needs an open source of unbonded oxygen to ignite.
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Shrapnel also gave us better pistols, SMGs, and shotguns... 8)
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I would look at maybe a Suppressed Pistol/Carbine... for hunting game while E&E, like the A7 pilot's survival rifle.
I need to find my Aerospace Pilot PAL suit I designed many many moons ago.
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I hope you find it! :)
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Besides C-Bill cost, would there be any downsides to using fire-resistant armor?
Also, does wearing an exoskeleton while piloting a mech impose piloting penalties?
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It’s not possible to pilot a mech in BA except for clan interface mechs, where you wear a PAL. The cockpits are always pretty cramped, an the extra bulk even if it makes you stronger and more dexterous would make piloting harder.
I assume FR armor is heavier, in addition to crits
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It’s not possible to pilot a mech in BA except for clan interface mechs, where you wear a PAL. The cockpits are always pretty cramped, an the extra bulk even if it makes you stronger and more dexterous would make piloting harder.
I assume FR armor is heavier, in addition to crits
True on all parts, I was figuring the total of half ton of weight would be having to redo the crew compartment(s) to make them easier for a Protected crewmember to use. I.e. Armored Gauntlets for the wielder to still be able to press buttons & switches, use control yokes, etc. So a Mech Cockpit would be 3.5 tons mass, instead of 3 tons. Vehicles would need to allocate an extra half ton per crew member.
It would also mean that a regular person in one of these cockpits would have a decent amount of elbow room, though the seat would definitely be uncomfortable as it is supposed to be supporting a PA(L) instead of a person. The restraint straps would also be uncomfortable as they are designed to restrain a 400 kg chunk of metal instead of a 100 kg person. You'd almost need to be a Clan Elemental to be semi-comfortable in one of these seats. Comments about regular pilots needing a booster seat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_safety_seat) would also be rife.
Fire-Resistant armor masses 30 kg per pt of protection, is Clan-only, and takes up 5 slots. Inner Sphere standard armor is 50 kg per pt of protection. (Clan standard armor is 25 kg per pt of protection) (source = Tech Manual corrected 6th printing)
So if any Clan forces decide to copy this design and use fire-Resistant armor to protect their bloodnamed warriors, they will get an extra 40 kg of mission equipment (2 pts @ 50 kg/ -> 2 pts @ 30 kg/).
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That would explain why an Interface Cockpit is 4 tons.
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That would explain why an Interface Cockpit is 4 tons.
A Manei Domini Interface cockpit also provides the following advantages:
- no need for a gyro
- Gunnery & Piloting benefits
- one free SPA (Gunnery or Piloting based
- neural degradation from cyber implant (okay, this might be a disadvantage)
This Crew Protection suit on the other hand:
- Mechs still need a gyro
- no Gunnery/Piloting benefits
- no free SPA
- no neural degradation from cyber implant
There is no cyber interface between the pilot and the Mech, so no need for cyber receiving/translation systems in the cockpit. But you still need a gyro, taking up 2-4 tons. I figure getting the half ton cockpit discount is worth the penalty of needing the 2-4 ton gyro (and gyro critical hit risks).
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It also doesn’t protect from the largest dangers of piloting a mech, explosive neural feedback.
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I don't know, there were PAL suits used by Aerospace Pilots, as basicly high tech G-suits
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So, this protective exoskeleton plus a damage interrupt circuit would together significantly increase the mechwarrior's chances of survival~
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Thanks to Retry in this post (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=82095.msg1950738#msg1950738), I decided to make a modified version with Stealth Armor to make the pilot harder to hit. At only 4,000 C-Bills more per suit, this would be a good investment. Good call Retry!
Survival & Environmentally protected Powered Exoskeleton - Stealth version
Type: New
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Tech Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Chassis Type: Biped
Weight Class: Ultra Light/PA(L)/Exoskeleton
Maximum Weight: 400 kg
Battle Value: 44
Cost per Suit: 329,000 (1,316,000 for 4 suits)
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: Yes/Yes/Yes/No (the suit is capable of doing so, but the wearer is not recommended)
Equipment Slots Mass
Chassis: 80 kg
Motive System:
Ground MP: 1 0 kg
Jump MP: 1 25 kg
Manipulators:
Left Arm: Armored Gloves 0 kg
Right Arm: Armored Gloves 0 kg
Armor: Stealth (Basic) 3 110 kg
Armor Value: 3 (2 from the armor and 1 for the Trooper)
Slots
Weapons and Equipment Location (Capacity) Mass
Mission Equipment Storage Body 0 85 kg
Space Operations Adaptation Body 1 100 kg
Vibro-Shovel None 0 0 kg
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I really don’t think you need the Space Operations Adaptation gear for your suit. You’re designing this as an E&E suit for ground use; but that gear is adding mag boots and maneuvering thrusters for use in microgravity. Just saying your exoskeleton is sealed should suffice for your purposes, which would free up mass for the extended life support.
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Extended Life Support is something you definitely want for an E&E suit.
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I really don’t think you need the Space Operations Adaptation gear for your suit. You’re designing this as an E&E suit for ground use; but that gear is adding mag boots and maneuvering thrusters for use in microgravity. Just saying your exoskeleton is sealed should suffice for your purposes, which would free up mass for the extended life support.
The Space Adaptation tech was to cover the Exoskeleton being able to handle a variety of environments to keep the wearer alive. It first has to handle fire/explosion/shrapnel/ejection from the unit being destroyed, then keep the wearer alive for long enough to reach a friendly unit.
But you are right, the Extended Life Support (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Extended_Life_Support) would save me 75 kg. Next version of the suit will have that.
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A Handheld Searchlight in the Torso might help...
Gotta see and be seen during rescue.
Maybe enough space for an AP built in weapon?
TT
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Indeed, I'm inclined to agree with much of what has been said. Space Operations Adaptation is not even required for a suit in vacuum, ELS allows for 24 hour operation in any sealed environment such as vacuum etc. I wouldn't bother with mounted weapons, a silenced SMG in the mission equipment pack and an AR in the cockpit or something similar would do the job, you do not want to be engaging enemy armour.
Best way to avoid a fight of course, no be there. Which is why my ground operation suit proposal comes with just 75KG of mission equipment but
3 ground MP + Mechanical jump booster for a running speed of over 40kph. 2 points of standard stealth armour makes it a hard target to hit, especially at these speeds and the extended life support keeps it running for 24 hours in any environment.
If aerial manoeuvres are expected, e.g. for ASF pilots or Mechs in microgravity then the Mechanical booster can be switched for regular jump jets for 2 Jump MP.
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I'd be inclined to regular jump jets anyway... the more you have, the higher obstacles you can clear. And three would let you get up a cliff a 'mech without jets can't climb.
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I'd be inclined to regular jump jets anyway... the more you have, the higher obstacles you can clear. And three would let you get up a cliff a 'mech without jets can't climb.
I was torn and I think you're probably right. 1/3 is slower on the flat but faster through rough terrain and has a few other little benefits, like clearing areas some units can't follow and being more consistently difficult to hit as well as being 25kg lighter. I always feel bouncing around lacks a certain level of stealth that ground movement gives you which is why I went for ground MP but I'm not sure there are any rules that actually support that anyway.
It's not terribly more expensive to make the suit light and stick a Jump Booster in it - not changing anything else you hit about 550KG instead of the PA(L)s 400 with 100KG of mission equipment. Costs an extra 75k per suit but jump 4 can shift. Still, we're probably going off track at that point - and certainly if we increase the armour to 6 and go up to the 750KG limit :p
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It's actually the same speed on the flat, just not stealthy, though I could see using the jets like Armored Core does (basically, speed skates). Still not stealthy, but at least it keeps you from being skeet... ;D
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This concept makes me think of a primitive form of the Honorverse's Skin Suit (https://honorverse.fandom.com/wiki/Skinsuit), just without all the augmentations.
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It's actually the same speed on the flat, just not stealthy, though I could see using the jets like Armored Core does (basically, speed skates). Still not stealthy, but at least it keeps you from being skeet... ;D
Is it? 3 Jump MP is not the same speed as 4 Ground MP. Mechanical Jump Booster increases your ground MP by 1. I think you might be right that 3 jump MP is preferably though
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I totally forgot the Mechanical Jump Booster increases ground speed...
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This concept makes me think of a primitive form of the Honorverse's Skin Suit (https://honorverse.fandom.com/wiki/Skinsuit), just without all the augmentations.
Skinsuits weren't augmented, though - the Marine battlearmor was. For that matter, Battletech has pretty close equivalents to the Honorverse skinsuit, like the SLDF Navy's engineer's uniform, or the Capellan Asuncion escape suit (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Asuncion_Escape_Suit), which is purportedly becoming the standard uniform for their Navy. ComStar uses a similar suit for their space marines (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Space_Marine) too.
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Version 2 of the E&E suit:
E&E Suit, now with more oxygen and movement
Type: New
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Tech Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Chassis Type: Biped
Weight Class: Ultra Light/PA(L)/Exoskeleton
Maximum Weight: 400 kg
Battle Value: 47
Cost: 439,500 each (1,758,000 for 4)
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: Yes/Yes/Yes/No (suit is capable of doing so, the pilot is not recommended)
Equipment Slots Mass
Chassis: 80 kg
Motive System:
Ground MP: 2 0 kg
Jump MP: 3 75 kg
Manipulators:
Left Arm: Armored Gloves 0 kg
Right Arm: Armored Gloves 0 kg
Armor: Stealth (Basic) 3 110 kg
Armor Value: 3 (2 Stealth Armor + 1 for the Trooper)
Slots
Weapons and Equipment Location (Capacity) Mass
Extended Life Support Body 1 25 kg
Vibro-Shovel None 0 0 kg
Searchlight Left Arm 1 5 kg
Mission Equipment Storage (55 kg) Body 1 55 kg
Mechanical Jump Booster Body 0 50 kg
So 100,000 C-Bills more per suit than the previous version (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,80511.msg1950754.html#msg1950754) in reply #31, but much faster and longer lasting. All the slots are used up, so nothing else can be put in.
Mechanical Jump Booster is for when you don't want to silhouette yourself for enemy target practice, at the expense of 1/3 your ground speed.
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What's the Vibro-Shovel do in damage?
I can see it doing digging excavations in rescue, possibly used to break a branch for fire, maybe blunt or a stabbing action, but the TW scale damage?
TT
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What's the Vibro-Shovel do in damage?
I can see it doing digging excavations in rescue, possibly used to break a branch for fire, maybe blunt or a stabbing action, but the TW scale damage?
TT
No idea what the damage would be. Infantry attacks from long range will be neutered by the Stealth armor, and at short range they will be spade. :grin:
But seriously, sometimes you just need a shovel. At zero kg, the main cost to bringing the shovel is using up a slot.
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Here lies poor Fritz. Death by shovel...
TT
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Here lies poor Fritz. Death by shovel...
TT
ran into the Death Korps of Krieg?
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/ac/Krieg_Engineer_Equipment.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20120726231444)
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Skinsuits weren't augmented, though - the Marine battlearmor was. For that matter, Battletech has pretty close equivalents to the Honorverse skinsuit, like the SLDF Navy's engineer's uniform, or the Capellan Asuncion escape suit (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Asuncion_Escape_Suit), which is purportedly becoming the standard uniform for their Navy. ComStar uses a similar suit for their space marines (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Space_Marine) too.
Actually, they were a little augmented because they are so heavy, just less then the PA(L) suit being suggested. I realize that my order of statement was in error to make you think otherwise.
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Um... I did a whole thread on Skinsuits (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,74640.0.html), and fixed the link in my sig block. I gave them no Attribute augmentation, but also allowed their armor values (total of 5, enough to be Divisor 1) to stack without penalty.