Warship development assistance required - Armoured Cruiser

[marauder648]

A design requirement has been put out to Clan Scientists for a large cruiser scale vessel (up to the maximum size available for a cruiser, without her being a battleship) and it must meet the following criteria.

1 - As much structural integrity rating as the hull is capable of having.

2 - Full armour for the SI.

3 - A speed of 3/5.  A fast vessel is not required, 2/3 will be accepted, but 3/5 is preferred.

4 - A suitable defensive armament and Anti-missile defense.

5 - Armament suitable to engage and destroy hostile warships.

6 - limited cargo space

7 - At least 2 dropship collars.

8 - At least 10 fighters

The emphasis here is on survivability first and foremost, against ships and fighters, firepower is secondary but not to be ignored.  I recognise that these are strange requirements but it could be an interesting challenge.

Please note that this is a PRE REVIVAL era vessel, so no HAG's or ATM's on the defensive weapons.

[Alsadius]

The cruiser/battleship line is fuzzy(on Sarna there's cruisers up to 1,500,000 tons and battleships as low as 900,000 tons), so I'll say semi-arbitrarily that a heavy cruiser is a million tons.

For a million tons you can get:
- 3/5 movement with 1300 tons(~33 days) of fuel
- 150 SI and 3000 armour (550 on all side facings, 450 nose, 350 aft)
- 10 fighters and 2 docking collars
- A LF battery, Naval C3 and a mobile HPG (hey, if you're going to run up the costs with the docking collars, let's do it right)
- Each of nose/aft/LBS/RBS has 10 ERPPC and 4 AMS(30 shots per) for point defence, 8 Medium NPPC for long-range warship combat, and a screen launcher(10 shots per) for defense.
- Each of FL/FR/AL/AR has 10 ERPPC and 4 AMS(30 shots per) for point defence, and 10 NAC/25(16 shots per) for warship combat.
- 2000 double heat sinks(enough for a full broadside, all ERPPCs, and 5 facings of AMS to all fire simultaneously)
- 3500 tons of cargo, 2 small grav decks, and 60 escape pods/lifeboats.

BV is 199,635, total cost is $21,037,829,200, and a maximal broadside is 618 capital-scale damage.

[marauder648]

Okay just to refine the peramiters a bit

maximum tonnage - 890,000 tons.

Tech era - Pre REVIVAL Clans, so no LAMS, or Screen launchers.

I'm not looking for perfection here, so no equivalent of a 5 x CLPL 100 tonner with a tar-com and 51 double heatsinks :)

[Vition2]

Basically what you appear to be looking for is a warship to fill the gap between the York-class destroyer/carrier and the Nightlord-class battleship - with a heavy emphasis on survivability rather than the more clan-typical offense.  Really, when I first saw this, I thought that you might be going for something akin to a miniature Potemkin, though nothing in your restrictions actually points to that.

I'll have something for you sometime tonight unless somebody posts something I consider a really good option.

[marauder648]

Aye, this ship is to be ordered and built as a pair, and its size is being kept down partially to secure the aid of the Ravens who's yards it will be built at.  If it was a battleship, then they might refuse as they could well be worried about commissioning a battleship for another Clan, even if it is a 'small' (if you can call a 900,000 + ton ship small) battleship. 

She's basically a fat cruiser, trading speed and firepower for survivability.  Smaller than any true battleship (which seems to start at 900,000 tons onwards) but in the same weight class as the earlier Luxor class, which is still heavier than anything else in Clan service outside of Battleships, as its heavier than the Cameron class BC.  But their emphasis on toughness and survivability is earning them the new designation of Armoured Cruiser.

And no, she's not a mini-Potemkin, she's built to take and give a pounding, to secure orbital space or drive of anything that's not a battleship by being able to outlast any cruiser or battlecruiser the Clans currently have in service.

[Vition2]

I give you the Thebes-class Armoured Cruiser (heavily based on the Luxor, an idea I was thinking about as soon as you mentioned 890,000 tons, and before you actually mentioned the class):

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name:  Thebes-class Armoured Cruiser
Tech:              Clan / 3050
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              890,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            975 meters
Sail Diameter:     1,490 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:         
   25 NL55
   23 Heavy NPPC
   10 NAC/30
   24 LRM 20+ArtIV
   18 Large Pulse Laser
    8 LB 10-X AC
   40 AMS
    8 NAC/20
    4 Medium NPPC
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Thebes
Mass:              890,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                      160,200.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 18)               402,725.00
Lithium Fusion Battery                                               8,900.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 5)                                              74.00
Structural Integrity: 135                                          120,150.00
Total Heat Sinks:    4,000 Double                                    3,389.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                   5,100.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              2,225.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Hyperpulse Generator:                                                   50.00
Armor Type:  Lamellor Ferro-carbide  (2,727 total armor pts)         2,402.50
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                 465
   Fore-Left/Right:                    460/460
   Aft-Left/Right:                     460/460
   Aft:                                  422

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Fighters (10)                                             1,500.00
           Small Craft (2)                                             400.00
   Bay 2:  Fighters (10)                                             1,500.00
           Small Craft (2)                                             400.00
   Bay 3:  Cargo (13,253.5 tons)                                    13,253.50

DropShip Capacity:  4 Docking Hardpoints                             4,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2:  (95-meter diameter)                                100.00
Life Boats:  35 (7 tons each)                                          245.00
Escape Pods:  30 (7 tons each)                                         210.00

Crew and Passengers:
     54 Officers (54 minimum)                                          540.00
    169 Crew (169 minimum)                                           1,183.00
     85 Gunners (85 minimum)                                           595.00
     50 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals                        350.00
     60 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 NL55                     Nose        17     17     17     17  255  3,300.00
3 Heavy NPPC               Nose        45     45     45     45  675  9,000.00
2 NAC/30(120 rounds)       Nose        60     60     60     --  200  7,096.00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(180 rounds) Nose     5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   18     48.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        Nose     2(20)  2(20)  2(20)     --   20     12.00
2 LB 10-X AC(120 rounds)   Nose     1(12)  1(12)     --     --    4     32.00
5 AMS(1488 rounds)         Nose        --     --     --     --    5     64.50
3 NL55                     FL/R        17     17     17     17  510  6,600.00
4 Heavy NPPC               FL/R        60     60     60     60 1800 24,000.00
2 NAC/20(120 rounds)       FL/R        40     40     40     --  240 10,096.00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(180 rounds) FL/R     5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   36     96.00
3 Large Pulse Laser        FL/R     3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   60     36.00
5 AMS(1488 rounds)         FL/R        --     --     --     --   10    129.00
3 NL55                     L/RBS       17     17     17     17  510  6,600.00
3 Heavy NPPC               L/RBS       45     45     45     45 1350 18,000.00
2 NAC/30(120 rounds)       L/RBS       60     60     60     --  400 14,192.00
2 NAC/30(120 rounds)       L/RBS       60     60     60     --  400 14,192.00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(180 rounds) L/RBS    5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   36     96.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    2(20)  2(20)  2(20)     --   40     24.00
5 AMS(1488 rounds)         L/RBS       --     --     --     --   10    129.00
3 NL55                     AL/R        17     17     17     17  510  6,600.00
3 Heavy NPPC               AL/R        45     45     45     45 1350 18,000.00
2 NAC/20(120 rounds)       AL/R        40     40     40     --  240 10,096.00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(180 rounds) AL/R     5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   36     96.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        AL/R     2(20)  2(20)  2(20)     --   40     24.00
2 LB 10-X AC(120 rounds)   AL/R     1(12)  1(12)     --     --    8     64.00
5 AMS(1488 rounds)         AL/R        --     --     --     --   10    129.00
4 NL55                     Aft         22     22     22     22  340  4,400.00
4 Medium NPPC              Aft         36     36     36     36  540  7,200.00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(180 rounds) Aft      5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   18     48.00
2 Large Pulse Laser        Aft      2(20)  2(20)  2(20)     --   20     12.00
2 LB 10-X AC(120 rounds)   Aft      1(12)  1(12)     --     --    4     32.00
5 AMS(1488 rounds)         Aft         --     --     --     --    5     64.50
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                            Heat: 9,700     876,746.50
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        17,751,078,000 C-Bills
Battle Value:      214,345


[Alsadius]

Okay just to refine the peramiters a bit

maximum tonnage - 890,000 tons.

Tech era - Pre REVIVAL Clans, so no LAMS, or Screen launchers.

Those were ammo-based AMS, not LAMS. My bad on screen launchers, though. Drop those for ERPPCs, and put the rest of the weight into cargo or bays for marines or something.

I'm not looking for perfection here, so no equivalent of a 5 x CLPL 100 tonner with a tar-com and 51 double heatsinks :)

I was actually trying not to max/min too much with that. My usual max/min build is to load up dozens or hundreds of anti-fighter weapons in the nose/aft/LBS/RBS arcs(which cover all angles, but because there's no heavy weapons the added fire control tonnage is trivial), and then max out capital weapons in FL/FR/AL/AR to hit with two facings as a broadside - it's rare to have enough tonnage to mount more than 80 capital guns at all, and so you can get all of it in there and still hit as hard as you can. Also, for most purposes the HPG and C3 are wasted - you didn't seem to intend it for a fleet, but it seems silly to build a ship that expensive and not have a few toys. And the weapons were more chosen to make the weight work than to be optimal. I like round numbers more than I like max/minning ;)

Dropping it to 850 kton and removing the screen launchers, you can do basically the same design but with light NPPCs and NAC/20s, and you can go up to a full Trinary of fighters, and add an Elemental Binary and a conventional infantry Binary for anti-boarding defence. (There's a few other minor changes for consistence - you up the cargo and fuel a bit, add more lifeboats and grav decks for all those guys on board, and so on. But the basics are the same)

[Cryhavok101]

For pre-Revival clan stuff, where warships will challenge each other like mechs do, I highly recommend some capital missiles on the design. That era of ships can't really deal well with them, and their ability to cripple an enemy at long range even if it is heavily armored could swing such a duel in the ship's favor. It also adds to your survivability if you are criting their weapon batteries. If you use the AR-10 launcher, you can use killer whales for hitting power, white sharks for best crit chance, and barracudas to add to your anti-fighter defenses.

[Cryhavok101]

My own entry into this:

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: Petram
Tech: Clan
Ship Cost: $16,091,145,600.00
Magazine Cost: $59,520,000.00
BV2: 140,325

Mass: 890,000
K-F Drive System: Compact with L-F Battery
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-Carbide
Armament:
8 Capital Launcher AR-10
48 Naval Laser 55
16 Naval PPC Heavy
88 LRM 20+Art4 (C)
24 Antimissile Systems (C)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: Petram
Mass: 890,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 160,200.00
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 2,225.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact with L-F Battery (19 Integrity) 411,625.00
Jump Sail: (5 Integrity) 75.00
Structural Integrity: 150 133,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 4,120(8,240) Double 3,509.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 3000 points 1,224.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 2937 pts Lamellor Ferro-Carbide 2,670.00
Fore: 450
Fore-Left/Right: 510/510
Aft-Left/Right: 510/510
Aft: 447

Cargo Bays:
Bay 1: 10 Fighter Bays (2 Doors) 1,500.00
Bay 2: Cargo (45,828.00 tons) (2 Doors) 45,828.00

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000.00

Escape Pods: 25 175.00
Life Boats: 25 175.00

Crew And Passengers:
53 Officers in Steerage Quarters 265.00
170 Crew in Steerage Quarters 850.00
87 Gunners and Others in Steerage Quarters 435.00
20 Bay Personnel 0.00
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
4 Naval Laser 55 Nose 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 3,300.00
4 Naval Laser 55 Nose 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 3,300.00
4 Naval Laser 55 Nose 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 3,300.00
4 Naval Laser 55 Nose 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 3,300.00
8 LRM 20+Art4 (C) Nose 48 128 (12.8-C) Long 48.00
8 Antimissile Systems Nose 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
4 Naval PPC Heavy FR/L 900 600 (60-C) Extreme-C 24,000.00
16 LRM 20+Art4 (C) FR/L 96 256 (25.6-C) Long 192.00
4 Naval Laser 55 R/LBS 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
4 Naval Laser 55 R/LBS 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
4 Naval Laser 55 R/LBS 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
4 Naval Laser 55 R/LBS 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 6,600.00
4 AR-10 R/LBS Extreme-C 2,000.00
4 LRM 20+Art4 (C) R/LBS 24 64 (6.4-C) Long 48.00
8 Antimissile Systems R/LBS 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 8.00
4 Naval PPC Heavy AR/L 900 600 (60-C) Extreme-C 24,000.00
16 LRM 20+Art4 (C) AR/L 96 256 (25.6-C) Long 192.00
4 Naval Laser 55 Aft 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 3,300.00
4 Naval Laser 55 Aft 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 3,300.00
4 Naval Laser 55 Aft 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 3,300.00
4 Naval Laser 55 Aft 1020 220 (22-C) Extreme-C 3,300.00
8 LRM 20+Art4 (C) Aft 48 128 (12.8-C) Long 48.00
8 Antimissile Systems Aft 8 24 (2.4-C) PDS 4.00
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammo Rounds Mass
Capital Launcher Killer Whale Ammo 160 8,000.00
Capital Launcher White Shark Ammo 160 6,400.00
Capital Launcher Barracuda Ammo 160 4,800.00
LRM 20+Art4 (C) Ammo 5280 880.00
Antimissile System (C) Ammo 7680 320.00


For anti-fighter it has bracketting/AA capital lasers, LRMs, and barracuda missiles. For antimissile, it has AMS. For Antiship, it has the classic 4 HNPPC bays, and the capital lasers, along with killer whales/white sharks. A broadside is 12 NL-55s, 8 HNPPC, 4 Capital Missiles. If the ships have closed enough, the anti-fighter LRMs can be fire off to confuse enemy PDS, and possibly make it more likely for the ship's own capital missiles to sneak through the enemy defenses (since few clan warships have AMS of their own, their PDS is much easier to wear down each turn).

Quarters are as spartan as they come, with even officers having minimum space. A small escort of 10 fighters 2 dropships are carried. The Watch has heard that after this initial prototype, the plans were altered somewhat and future versions may have better accommodations and more fighters, and even a battle armored marine contingent, at the cost of less cargo space.

The ship's armor is comparable to battleships on the nose and aft, and on the side it has some of the thickest armor plating on any ship produced by the clans to date. It carries enough fuel in it's tanks for only a single month of operation, however, quite often more fuel is carried in the cargo bay as well.

I figure, you probably already have fluff for it, so I'll leave the rest to you.

Edit, fixed an error in the design.

[marauder648]

Thats a good point, after all a cripple ships more likely to back off.  Perhaps replace some of the NAC/20s with 10s and use the 500 tons of weight saved per gun to add some AR-10's and a decent ammo bin in hull sections?

And thats a lovely design Cryhavoc!  Both are great :)

I will say that these ships are meant to be Jaguar vessels and I was inspired by a chat I had with someone working on an AU. 

[Cryhavok101]

Thats a good point, after all a cripple ships more likely to back off.  Perhaps replace some of the NAC/20s with 10s and use the 500 tons of weight saved per gun to add some AR-10's and a decent ammo bin in hull sections?

Well, it it's a Jaguar ship, they probably don't want anyone to back off.

Capital missile launchers are relatively light weight as far as capital weapons go, but their ammo bins are quite the opposite. Rules wise, a design has to have 10 shots per weapon in their ammo bins minimum, and for an ar-10 you would probably want more, but the minimum is gonna be 10 barracuda missiles for 300 tons, on top of the launcher's 250 ton weight... and that's just one side of the ship. IF you were going to put capital missiles on his design, you would want more weight than 500 tons towards it in my opinion.

[marauder648]

Ahh yes, good point, unless you want SLDF ammo bins, where they seem to think that 3 missiles of one type, 9 AC shells and then 900 tons of ammo for the single SRM covering the stern is perfectly fine :s

[Cryhavok101]

Fixed an error in my calculations on the Petram, edited my post above.

[Trajan Helmer]

I know this changes the main parameter, but what if we made this cruiser a pocket battleship instead by increasing the weight to no more than 990,000 tons?  I'm a novice in WarShip design, would this make a bigger difference in combat rating and/or survivability?

What if the tech window is increased to as late as 3067 for a late ship in the class?

[Vition2]

I know this changes the main parameter, but what if we made this cruiser a pocket battleship instead by increasing the weight to no more than 990,000 tons?  I'm a novice in WarShip design, would this make a bigger difference in combat rating and/or survivability?

Assuming that the only things you actually put on the base design is a thrust profile of 3/5, structural integrity of 150 (this is the max), and maximum armor, this is the difference between the two:

Total Armor 890,000: 3,027
Total Armor 990,000: 3,357

Other Space 890,000: 179,936 tons
Other Space 990,000: 190,380 tons

So for ~10% increase in mass, you get a ~10% increase in armor (effectively increasing the crit threshold from 50 to 56) and a ~5.5% increase in potential offensive equipment.  Overall, this isn't particularly significant, though you might be able to fit the next size higher of NACs onto the warship - depending on if you can accept the potential decrease in range.  Defensively, most heavy-hitting capital bays fall somewhere between 50 and 70 c-damage (with more than its fair share at 60), so this will slightly increase the durability to through-armor crits, and the armor itself will soak up a bit more damage.

What if the tech window is increased to as late as 3067 for a late ship in the class?

The only noticeable change you'll see between the revival era and a 3067 refit will be in the standard sized weapons.  Possibly heavy lasers, ATMs, HAGs, ER Pulse Lasers, etc.  Sub-capital weapons don't start making it into full production until the early 3070s - and they, along with screen launchers, never actually make it into the "clan-tech" arsenal, units designed with these will always be considered mixed-tech units (until things change regarding them).

[marauder648]

Sadly its got to be a 'cruiser'. The initial designs are all very large ships and they outgun pretty much anything shy of a McKenna (due to the other designs being poop, god how i'd love to re-do the Nightlord and Texas, or just make DragonCat's Nightlord II and Mississippi classes be canon). 

This is a pure political move so the Raven's will help build the damn things and not feel threatened by them. They are a pocket battleship, but they will be classed as cruisers.

[Vition2]

Sadly its got to be a 'cruiser'. The initial designs are all very large ships and they outgun pretty much anything shy of a McKenna (due to the other designs being poop, god how i'd love to re-do the Nightlord and Texas, or just make DragonCat's Nightlord II and Mississippi classes be canon). 

This is a pure political move so the Raven's will help build the damn things and not feel threatened by them. They are a pocket battleship, but they will be classed as cruisers.

In all honesty, you kind of did this to your self considering the limitations you placed on us.  In particular the following:

1 - As much structural integrity rating as the hull is capable of having.

2 - Full armour for the SI.

6 - limited cargo space

Combined, these three aspects of your request push for a very strong and capable warship.  Noting my comment above, and the "limited cargo space aspect" it makes it difficult to leave more than 15kt in cargo and still feel like I'm subscribing to to limitations of the design, this means that, after everything else is filled in, we're left with ~150kt to spend on weapons.  This means you are expecting us to be less efficient with that tonnage than your maligned Nightlord.  (and just to point this out, both the Black Lion, Aegis, and Luxor each have maximum throw weights of 1216, 1226, and 1056, respectively - so most of these designs fall well below their level of potential firepower, Alsadius' 2nd version coming close only to the Luxor)

[Vition2]

With the above in mind, here's a second attempt - it still has a very robust potential firepower.  A note about the eclectic mix of weapons, this allows for easy trials and bidding away specific weapons.

Code: [Select]

                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Thebes mk. II
Tech:              Clan / 3050
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              890,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            843 meters
Sail Diameter:     1,166 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       3
Maximum Thrust:    5
Armor Type:        Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:         
   11 Light NPPC
   10 Medium N-Gauss
    4 Light N-Gauss
    8 NAC/20
    4 NAC/10
   12 NL55
    4 NL35
    8 AR10 Launcher
   24 Large Pulse Laser
   24 LB 20-X AC
   19 LRM 20+ArtIV
   32 AMS
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Thebes mk. II
Mass:              890,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                      160,200.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 3
      Maximum Thrust: 5
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 18)               402,725.00
Lithium Fusion Battery                                               8,900.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 5)                                              74.00
Structural Integrity: 150                                          133,500.00
Total Heat Sinks:    1,750 Double                                    1,139.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                   5,100.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              2,225.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Hyperpulse Generator:                                                   50.00
Armor Type:  Lamellor Ferro-carbide  (3,027 total armor pts)         2,670.00
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                 527
   Fore-Left/Right:                    504/504
   Aft-Left/Right:                     504/504
   Aft:                                  484

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Fighters (10)                                             1,500.00
           Small Craft (2)                                             400.00
   Bay 2:  Fighters (10)                                             1,500.00
           Small Craft (2)                                             400.00
   Bay 4:  Cargo                                                    16,512.00

DropShip Capacity:  4 Docking Hardpoints                             4,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2:  (95-meter diameter)                                100.00
Life Boats:  35 (7 tons each)                                          245.00
Escape Pods:  30 (7 tons each)                                         210.00

Crew and Passengers:
     54 Officers (54 minimum)                                          540.00
    169 Crew (169 minimum)                                           1,183.00
     85 Gunners (78 minimum)                                           595.00
     50 Marine Battle Armor Troopers/Elementals                        350.00
     60 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Light NPPC               Nose        14     14     14     --  210  2,800.00
2 Medium N-Gauss(120 roundsNose        50     50     50     50   30 11,048.00
4 NL55                     Nose        22     22     22     22  340  4,400.00
2 AR10 (20 KW, 40 B)       Nose         *      *      *      *   40  2,700.00
4 AMS(3600 rounds)         Nose        --     --     --     --    4    152.00
3 Large Pulse Laser        Nose     3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   30     18.00
3 LB 20-X AC(180 rounds)   Nose     4(36)  4(36)     --     --   18     72.00
2 Light N-Gauss(120 rounds)FL/R        30     30     30     30   36 18,048.00
2 NAC/20(120 rounds)       FL/R        50     50     50     --  240 10,096.00
  1 NAC/10(60 rounds)                                            60  4,024.00
2 AR10 (20 KW, 40 B)       FL/R         *      *      *      *   80  5,400.00
4 AMS(3600 rounds)         FL/R        --     --     --     --    8    304.00
3 Large Pulse Laser        FL/R     3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   60     36.00
3 LB 20-X AC(180 rounds)   FL/R     4(36)  4(36)     --     --   36    144.00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(180 rounds) FL/R     5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   36     96.00
2 Medium N-Gauss(120 roundsL/RBS       50     50     50     50   60 22,096.00
2 Medium N-Gauss(12 rounds)L/RBS       50     50     50     50   60 22,010.00
4 NL55                     L/RBS       22     22     22     22  680  8,800.00
4 AMS(3600 rounds)         L/RBS       --     --     --     --    8    304.00
3 Large Pulse Laser        L/RBS    3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   60     36.00
3 LB 20-X AC(180 rounds)   L/RBS    4(36)  4(36)     --     --   36    144.00
2 LRM 20+ArtIV(120 rounds) L/RBS    3(32)  3(32)  3(32)     --   24     64.00
3 Light NPPC               AL/R        21     21     21     --  630  8,400.00
2 NAC/20(120 rounds)       AL/R        50     50     50     --  240 10,096.00
  1 NAC/10(60 rounds)                                            60  4,024.00
1 AR10 (10 KW, 20 B)       AL/R         *      *      *      *   40  2,700.00
4 AMS(3600 rounds)         AL/R        --     --     --     --    8    304.00
3 Large Pulse Laser        AL/R     3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   60     36.00
3 LB 20-X AC(180 rounds)   AL/R     4(36)  4(36)     --     --   36    144.00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(180 rounds) AL/R     5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   36     96.00
3 Light NPPC               Aft         21     21     21     --  315  4,200.00
2 NL35                     Aft          7      7      7     --  104  1,400.00
2 NL35                     Aft          7      7      7     --  104  1,400.00
4 AMS(3600 rounds)         Aft         --     --     --     --    4    152.00
3 Large Pulse Laser        Aft      3(30)  3(30)  3(30)     --   30     18.00
3 LB 20-X AC(180 rounds)   Aft      4(36)  4(36)     --     --   18     72.00
3 LRM 20+ArtIV(180 rounds) Aft      5(48)  5(48)  5(48)     --   18     48.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                            Heat: 3,859     873,488.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Edit: Reordered weapons for a small amount of clarity. :D

[marauder648]

I should have been more specific with the cargo, I didn't want like Kirishima limited, IE just enough to pop down the shops and get a bag of sugar :p 15 - 20k is perfectly fine. 

These designs thus far are really good :)  Its what I wanted, these things no matter how you colour it are pocket battleships, they pack a good wallop and are absurdly tough. This could be countered by the fact that you'd need to spend more time in a yard afterwards getting repaired, making them more expensive to maintain and keep running. 

[Alsadius]

(and just to point this out, both the Black Lion, Aegis, and Luxor each have maximum throw weights of 1216, 1226, and 1056, respectively - so most of these designs fall well below their level of potential firepower, Alsadius' 2nd version coming close only to the Luxor)

For comparison, if you count all the light weapons, my first 1000 kT design was a throw weight of 1408, and my second 850 kT design was 1144. In the 890 kT bracket, Vition's first was 1052 and his second was 809, and CryHavoc's was 712(though with a huge amount of cargo). And the Nightlord is 782, though in a heavier weight bracket(1200 kT) than any of the others.

Edit: Also, the McKenna (1930 kT) is only 1290, which really shocks me. But I guess that's what a quarter million tons of cargo gets you.

[Vition2]

I never count standard-sized weapons in throw weights.  Unless it's a very fast ship, the fight's likely to be over before turning such short ranged weapons on an opposing warship is worth it (unless the ship is specifically built for it, like some of those with hundreds of such weapons).

I also, unless I'm being really really specific, ignore what can actually be used when heat sinks are factored in - a significant number of canon and non-canon designs can't fire all their weapons at once (in fact, I purposely build most of mine to not be able to fire everything at once giving nearly all my designs a weakness to being surrounded and overwhelmed, the Thebes mk. II is actually one of my closer to heat neutral designs, and that's likely due to the large use of N-Gauss).

[Alsadius]

What's the range conversion on standard-sized versus naval-sized weapons again? I know there's a gap there, but I can't remember how big it is.

[marauder648]

Pretty much a capships short range.  If a capship is using its defensive weapons against another vessel that is real point blank fighting in spacial terms. 

[Vition2]

Actually standard weapon ranges are exactly half the ranges of capital weapons.

And when I discount them, I mostly mean that they are focusing on other targets than a warship - threats that their mothership's capital weapons are extremely inefficient at combating.  Incoming fighters or small craft, and the occasional pot shot at capital missiles.  If the warship has complete control over the engagement in such aspects, then bringing their standard sized weapons against the opponent is doable, but don't expect much with smaller batteries - unless you have scads of weapons, the bay isn't going to break through the armor in that section to pose a potential crit, something a very many capital bays manage to do.