Author Topic: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)  (Read 6457 times)

Firesprocket

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Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« on: 22 December 2017, 00:17:08 »
Battlemechs and Aerospace fighters have always been at the forefront of the Clan Touman.  Outside of Clan Hell’s Horses, vehicles had largely fallen into disuse.  The majority of vehicles existed to for cannibalization to keep others afloat or cached in favor of other battlemechs.  It was not until il Khan Jerome Winson tenure that vehicles were recognized to have a huge benefit over a battlemech, cost.

The cost of a vehicle was sharply less than that involved in manufacturing a battlemech and vehicles could be produced in larger numbers.  Both factors drove the il Khan to order a kick start to vehicle production so that new holdings obtained and grown from exploration during the Golden Century could be capably defended.   Vehicles that utilized the newer weapon systems developed over the years. As part of this effort the Ishtar was given form.

Ishtar is the Mesopotamian goddess of love, beauty, sex, desire, fertility, war, combat, and political power.  Fast forward now to the 3oth century and she is now the Sex on Wheels of your Local Clan 110 Auxiliary/Solhama unit.  Featuring a variety of auto cannons and gauss weapons this is the no frills, wheeled, direct fire platform that your opponent really can’t ignore because of the volume of fire it can put down field.  Survival though clearly takes a back seat though to the design’s firepower.

Omnimechs were not yet in mass production and the mechs of the day being developed were largely headed in different directions.  Clan mech design was mostly focused on refining existing design with tech refinements that had been going on at the time and/or putting into production mechs that were on the drawing board at end of the Star League.   The Ishtar, along with other new tank designs constructed at the same time, offered an easy platform to adopt the newer Clan spec weapons systems over the previous Star League and early Clan prototypes.

Variants:
The Original Ishtar was a faster machine than either of its off spring.  It moved a modest cruise of 43kph which was faster than most other second line tanks released after the Pentagon Liberation and through the Golden Century.   Packing the combination of an Ultra-10, a LB-10X, and a LRM-10 with Arty FCS makes for a decent weapons package.   Armor is criminally low when you fighting another Clan opponent with only 7 tons of armor.  It would take only 2 PPC strikes to get critical hit off on the Ishtar.

The modern Ishtar is a slower machine due to a smaller engine.  The small engine allows for improvements in the weapons and ammo loads.  Armor though is barely addressed.  Carrying a half ton more than the Original and protecting the sides so that it would take a 3rd PPC strike to produce a critical hit.  The weapons load upgrades the LRM launcher to a 15.  Two ER Medium Lasers are added for more direct damage.  An AMS system was put on the front of the machine to help deter massive missiles strikes from outright gutting the tank

The most recent and last variant of the Ishtar is the so called Gauss model.  The ACs and AMS have been removed for a standard Gauss Rifle and HAG-20.  Each big gun has its own 2 ton supply of ammo.  No change in armor layout.   Overall this is probably the superior of the 3 different models in that it can now
provide its full firepower at a stand-off range, rather than medium range that the LB and Ultra provided on the other two models.

Conclusion:
The main issues that exist with the Ishtar are that the design is to slow to chase down targets and a rather weak amount of armor when compare to designs of the same tonnage.  On the other hand, defending a static outpost, especially one that can dig in and or entrench is where the design will shine. As long as the Ishtar is not in a situation where it has to deal with broken terrain it makes for a solid, just not stellar basket of guns.  The thank is less than ideal with respect to anything other than flat terrain or open ground.  The wheeled nature of the designs means that the design can't go park and hide in light woods like other armor that uses a tracked motive system.
« Last Edit: 24 December 2017, 00:53:48 by Firesprocket »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #1 on: 22 December 2017, 12:19:03 »
Ah, the Ishtar.  Add a handlebar to that thing and it's a mech-sized Segway.

I've used it once: it actually managed to inflict a lot of damage since my opponent ignored it and the Athena HAG varient next to in in favor of shooting at my mechs.
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Maelwys

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #2 on: 22 December 2017, 12:58:55 »
I've used it once: it actually managed to inflict a lot of damage since my opponent ignored it and the Athena HAG varient next to in in favor of shooting at my mechs.

And that's pretty much the best use of alot of the lightly armored Clan vehicles. Have them shoot and hope your opponent goes after something else. Which probably really works on Clans that are used to "honorable" combat and used to considering vehicles as inferior.

I'm sort of surprised that the modern Hell's Horses variant with the HAG and GR didn't try to up the armor on it. I guess there's only so much you can do if you want that firepower.

Still, at 1600 BV, its a pretty hefty chunk, even considering its Clan.

SD501st

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #3 on: 22 December 2017, 14:54:50 »
Yay! Thanks alot!

The Ishtar suggests its focus on being a slow, firepower heavy defensive/ambush unit in a very unsubtle way... :))

Ishtar


Towed Gun


 
« Last Edit: 22 December 2017, 15:09:03 by SD501st »

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #4 on: 22 December 2017, 17:38:22 »
Hmm, not a sound design, but not bad for the clans, i suppose. Or for a first effort.
Though given how "skilled" their crews usually are, it could have really done with more pulse weapons. ^^
Good read.
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Firesprocket

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #5 on: 23 December 2017, 01:52:53 »
Though given how "skilled" their crews usually are, it could have really done with more pulse weapons. ^^
Th BV is pretty respectable for the firepower the Ishtar possesses.  Really its effectivness is limited by the skill of the crew which outside CHH isn't going to be all that good.  The Ishtar Gauss is a pretty potent machine on a budget.  You have your Gauss for holes, LRMs for spread, and HAG for additional spread and flak at a hair over 1600 bv.  I'd say that is worth it when you consider most Clans are deploying 2 Ishtars per point.

Jellico

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #6 on: 23 December 2017, 19:49:50 »
The comment about weapon testing is speculation.



I will happily throw an Ishtar against any tank in the game. The throw weight is enough to incapacitate any tank before its own armour fails.

Clan tank armour is perfectly adequate for duels. They can take on multiple opponents one after the other. Where it fails is when an entire lance unloads on a single tank.

Which brings you to Clan tank tactics. Establish a firing line with your longest ranged tanks. Stationary if possible because of the bad gunners. Then offer sacrificial targets to draw fire and bring the enemy out.

This is where the classic Ishtar comes in. It has the armour to weather a few hits while the medium range weapons encourage it to charge out anyway. With its low mobility I find it best to just cruise up to the enemy's line until it's armour collapses. It is a Hunchback and should be treated as such.

Firesprocket

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #7 on: 24 December 2017, 00:45:12 »
The comment about weapon testing is speculation.

It is actually down right false.  That is what I get for spell and fact checking late at night.  The statement I originally made wasn't meant to imply the weapon systems were being tested by the tanks for other purposes.  I, in fact, quite clearly state otherwise early on that the weapons were already developed earlier.  I'll fix that up so it makes more sense.

Jellico

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #8 on: 24 December 2017, 01:37:29 »
Thanks. You would be amazed at the rumors that get started by otWs. You can speculate but just note it as such.

Firesprocket

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #9 on: 24 December 2017, 02:23:37 »
I don't really like speculating.  It as more a poor choice of words than anything else.

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #10 on: 28 December 2017, 12:04:17 »
An excellent article, I've not really used Clan tanks that much, they are terrifyingly fragile for vehicles of their size for the most part, but boy do they pack a wallop.  Really well written and enjoyable stuff :) Thanks for this!

The only problem with the Ishtar and its ilk from that TRO is that almost all of them look...well not good from a vehicle perspective.  The Epona's nice as is the Odin and the other hover tanks (even if the Svantovit is waaaay too small) but the others...definately not Plog's best work.  The Ishtar looks like it would topple in a stiff breeze.
« Last Edit: 28 December 2017, 12:13:03 by marauder648 »
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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #11 on: 28 December 2017, 21:22:41 »
The Ishtar looks like it would topple in a stiff breeze.
I don't the see problem here, after all:

An excellent article, I've not really used Clan tanks that much, they are terrifyingly fragile for vehicles of their size for the most part, but boy do they pack a wallop.

mbear

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #12 on: 06 February 2018, 08:34:11 »
Yay! Thanks alot!

The Ishtar suggests its focus on being a slow, firepower heavy defensive/ambush unit in a very unsubtle way... :))

Ishtar


It really does look like it should be carrying an artillery piece, doesn't it?

On a different note, I think if the Ishtar was available to the Hell's Horses after they relocated to the Inner Sphere they might replace the standard armor with Ferro-Fibrous. (I didn't see any mention of what armor type it uses in the article, but the mention of 7 tons being light makes me think they used standard plate.) After all, the Horses need to protect their warriors.
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Rage

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #13 on: 06 February 2018, 21:57:22 »
It really does look like it should be carrying an artillery piece, doesn't it?

On a different note, I think if the Ishtar was available to the Hell's Horses after they relocated to the Inner Sphere they might replace the standard armor with Ferro-Fibrous. (I didn't see any mention of what armor type it uses in the article, but the mention of 7 tons being light makes me think they used standard plate.) After all, the Horses need to protect their warriors.

The Ishtar already uses Ferro-Fibrous. Unfortunately, it also divvies up the still limited armor rather poorly, keeping every facing more or less equally armored rather than emulate a more classic armor scheme like that of the Demolisher. The firepower is, at least, rather decent, even if it really can't capitalize on it due to Clan tank crews not belonging to the flaming ponies and, maybe, the Blood Spirits, being terrible at best (in which Clan Regular crews are on par with Green Inner Sphere vehicle crews).

As for looking like it's carrying an artillery piece, not quite, but it would probably be a hell of a lot more useful if it mixed an LB-20X and something like an Ultra AC/5.

Jellico

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #14 on: 07 February 2018, 05:51:30 »
The Ishtar carried too much to the rear.
The Demolisher carries too much on the turret. It is also worth remembering that the Demolisher carried 160 points to the Ishtars 144. Per ton the Ishtar is better armoured.

Rage

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #15 on: 07 February 2018, 12:25:57 »
The Ishtar carried too much to the rear.
The Demolisher carries too much on the turret. It is also worth remembering that the Demolisher carried 160 points to the Ishtars 144. Per ton the Ishtar is better armoured.

The Demolisher is also designed to operate in the hull down position where only the turret would be exposed, so it's actually got a decent armor load on the turret. As for the Ishtar being better armored per ton, of course it is. Clan Ferro-Fibrous grants +20% armor protection.

mbear

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #16 on: 08 February 2018, 08:38:57 »
The Ishtar already uses Ferro-Fibrous. Unfortunately, it also divvies up the still limited armor rather poorly, keeping every facing more or less equally armored rather than emulate a more classic armor scheme like that of the Demolisher. The firepower is, at least, rather decent, even if it really can't capitalize on it due to Clan tank crews not belonging to the flaming ponies and, maybe, the Blood Spirits, being terrible at best (in which Clan Regular crews are on par with Green Inner Sphere vehicle crews).

OK. Thanks for setting me straight. Maybe the Horses will replace the armor with Ferro-Lamellor at some point. That could be fun.
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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #17 on: 10 February 2018, 00:44:10 »
Maybe the Horses will replace the armor with Ferro-Lamellor at some point. That could be fun.
Ferro-Lam is the auto win button.  I encourage it be used at just about every opportunity.  I haven't done the math yet though and aside from reducing the pellet and SRM spam damage issues I'm not certain it will gain that much, if any large factor of survival.  You would loose out on the 20% difference between FF to standard and then again the 12.5% difference of raw armor to FLam.

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #18 on: 10 February 2018, 16:25:16 »
The Demolisher is also designed to operate in the hull down position where only the turret would be exposed, so it's actually got a decent armor load on the turret. As for the Ishtar being better armored per ton, of course it is. Clan Ferro-Fibrous grants +20% armor protection.

Hull down rules are optional and didn't exist when the Demolisher entered the game.

Statistically turrets don't get hit much under standard rules.

An Ishtar devotes 0.115 tons of armour per mass.
A Demolisher has 0.125 tons of armour per mass.
A Rommel is 0.177.
A Manticore is 0.183.

While an Ishtar is low on mass devoted to protection it is not outrageously so by the standards of 3025 tank design. We just forget that in the age of optimised bricks.

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #19 on: 11 February 2018, 22:20:17 »
It was also created when armor did not mean anything if you let someone get near you with a SRM launcher loaded with infernos.  Which at the time made things like the Heimdall and the other heavily armored assault vehicles sort of pointless . . . sure they could take gauss rifle and long range AC hits, but that is not what people killed assault armor with at that point of the game.
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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #20 on: 12 February 2018, 06:55:57 »
With only fluff in mind, don't the Clans not view Combat Vehicles as low priority to begin?  With give their focus on Mechs from the Hell's Horses i mean, their disposable assets.
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Jellico

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #21 on: 12 February 2018, 15:48:46 »
I think it is important to get your head in the right place with Clan tanks. Note that they don't have a MBT until TRO 3067. That is important. All their tanks are support units.

There is a genuine argument that MBTs should not exist at all. In the case of the Clans it is pretty clear a Mech is meant to be in the MBT role. And given the free form nature of Stars it is perfectly reasonable to slip one in.

So what is a role for an Ishtar? Body guard. It is a pocket assault. You use it to protect or take pressure off a more valuable unit like a Mech or a Mars.

It was also created when armor did not mean anything if you let someone get near you with a SRM launcher loaded with infernos.  Which at the time made things like the Heimdall and the other heavily armored assault vehicles sort of pointless . . . sure they could take gauss rifle and long range AC hits, but that is not what people killed assault armor with at that point of the game.

I would argue that Clan tanks were about 10% short of ideal. They would die slightly faster than they wouls crit out. OTOH the IS contemporaries would crit out a turn later with armour intact. Sometimes very intact.

The modern result of an immobile brick lasting forever, with the crew occasionally waking up for a shot, I feel to be an unintended consequence of the rule changes. Something was needed but I am not sure that this was a good result.

Colt Ward

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Re: Early VotW Ishtar (requested by SD501st)
« Reply #22 on: 12 February 2018, 16:07:42 »
To be fair, I played the MM servers when large tanks were absolutely disposable and when TW changed that set up.  Most servers went to advanced rules for veh survivability.  I use this in my campaign and we use it on table top so . . . but folks also bring lots of LRMs, SRMs and LBX.  We have not really had armor get parked for very long- and I have not seen it that way on MM either.  Usually its because while the main guns are trying to kill a moving mech or armor, secondaries or bad shots are thrown the immobile vehicle's way to get them off the board.

I have trotted out a bit of variety on TT too . . . pair of Schilds in a 5k game, Pixiu, hardened armor tank and for a lot of fun, the Scapha with MVSPL.
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