Clan Superheavy Mech

[Church14]

If the Clans REALLY want to use Superheavy tripods they'll figure out something.

I agree. I just don't think there is the will to do so with the clans that have them. Why put so much effort in when there's massive tank and mech production on Terra already

My guess is the Ares will fade from Wolf units as the RAF abtakhas that pilot the ares are killed off or moved over the the Hegemony IIC.

There's a small chance that MUL's "Star League (Clan Wolf)" will see the ares removed once we get whatever the Hegemony IIC will be called in IKEO.

[tassa_kay]

Vehicle crews and starship gunnery crews managed to figure out work arounds to the caste system. If the Clans REALLY want to use Superheavy tripods they'll figure out something.

THANK YOU. People acting like these are just heretical to the Way of the Clans when we have multiple unit types that use multiple Clan warriors to operate seems a little silly to me.

[Metallgewitter]

If we look from another angle the Wolves might consider them useless as they were able to quickly beat them (like the Falcons considered Protomechs as useless because Etienne basically sabotaged the entire program with the Erinyes). So they might shuffle those units that survived to either Garrison units or maybe even give them to the Foxes to sell them to whomever. Right now I would wager they rather build more "simple" units then waste time to build more of those stumbling superheavies.

The Horses might have an idea how to use them but as others stated they have adopted the idea of mobile  combined-arms warfare (albeit also with heavy Mechs sprinkled within)

[Church14]

THANK YOU. People acting like these are just heretical to the Way of the Clans when we have multiple unit types that use multiple Clan warriors to operate seems a little silly to me.

Alaric’s Wolves were doing their best to move away from vehicles, relegating them to the garrison galaxies and only having any because they had no other way to keep numbers up with just mechs. They have been moving away from anything but Kerensky’s blessed mech, ASF, infantryBA.

I don’t think superheavies are anethema to clans in general. I think clan wolf in particular won’t like them.

I’d assume foxes could use ares if they want. I don’t really know Fox doctrine. Horses would love em. RasDom would probably use em in limited numbers.

[BrianDavion]

keep in mind the wolves doctrine favors MOBILITY, sure they have some big slow assaults, but if you look at their prefered mechs it tends to be faster designs. I imagine they look at big slow super heavies and generally don't see a lot of a point

[glitterboy2098]

i could see the Raven Alliance adopting them too. not the Ravens themselves, but the Outworlds half of their military. they tend to fill more of a defensive role in the pairing anyway, and IS forces should have little issue with training to work as a crew.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't think the OA techs would enjoy it too much, though.

[Stormlion1]

There is another option. Retrofit the design to only have a single controller. The early Posieden design when it was a prototype worked with a single Mechwarrior.

[Wrangler]

For fluff reasons the early Posieden was very difficult to use.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

...
I don’t think superheavies are anethema to clans in general. I think clan wolf in particular won’t like them. ...

What does not liking something have to do with not using it?

If something has a use it will be used wether someone likes it or not

Scorpions openly dislike missiles

Scorpions also use missiles constantly

Same will be with Wolves and superheavies

If sending bunch of crew operated superheavies against the enemy will bring victory to Clan Wolf then Clan Wolf will send bunch of crew operated superheavies against the enemy

Simple as

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

LRMs and SRMs were ubiquitous weapons for mechs long before the Clans existed and offered well-understood options in terms of various specialty munitions.  Superheavy mechs are limited to two tripod designs that made it to production status and two bipods that never left the prototype phase and their battlefield utility vs traditional mechs is still in question.  It would be vastly easier for the Wolves to avoid using superheavies than it was for the Scorpions to avoid missiles.

I wouldn't be surprised if Alaric decided to dump any remaining Ares and Poseidon mechs they have on the nuJags or better yet, the Star League Falcons as a subtle insult.

[Church14]

What does not liking something have to do with not using it?

If something has a use it will be used wether someone likes it or not

Scorpions openly dislike missiles

Scorpions also use missiles constantly

Same will be with Wolves and superheavies

If sending bunch of crew operated superheavies against the enemy will bring victory to Clan Wolf then Clan Wolf will send bunch of crew operated superheavies against the enemy

Simple as

Like wasn't the right word.

Clan Wolf would have to go out of its way to use a crew-intensive mech when the one thing they should have an excess of is standard mechs. There's about a thousand clan mechjocks left, and there were something like 7000 mechs rendered inoperable on Terra. Between the few surviving wolf mechs, the rebuilt salvage, and Terran production, there's no pressure to assimilate the ares into their clan.

Wolf clusters would indeed need to go actively out of their way to develop a new doctrine around superheavies and there's no need to. Especially how far it would be from their standard doctrine of zoomies that's been plot armoring them to victory for the last 20 years. They can reassign the few ares crews that didn't quit to whatever general SLDF forces they create. Or dump them in one weird assault cluster that no trueborn wants assigned to. I expect wolves to evolve, but the ares feels like too much of a cultural/doctrinal jump for them to make in six months. If this convo is about wolves in 3155? Maybe they have a new ares doctrine.

Whereas Bears would have the people, and a doctrine involving slow, durable assaults that wouldn't need such a huge change to incorporate the ares. The Horses are embracing more mobile combined arms, but the Horde clusters are still a heavy/assault mech element and a fast vehicle group. Those could absorb an ares without pause.

[Metallgewitter]

The Horses on the other hand also have experience with Multi Crew vehicles. Their Quad-Vees have crews instead of singular pilots so for them a 3 men crewed superheavy might just be the next step in the Evolution. Of Course Fitting them into doctrine is another aspect. And I think that might be the main theme. The RAF had some years to develop a doctrince around them (mixed with stupid pills apparently because leaving those lumbering Titans without close support seems to be rather stupid esepcially when they actually supported them with Mech escorts during the year Long raiding campaigns)

[Church14]

…
The RAF had some years to develop a doctrince around them (mixed with stupid pills apparently because leaving those lumbering Titans without close support seems to be rather stupid esepcially when they actually supported them with Mech escorts during the year Long raiding campaigns)

Welcome back to things inexplicable in universe that we have to choke on from Hour of the Wolf, episode 137.

[Wrangler]

I get the vibe the author didn't really understand how the Superheavy Mechs are suppose to operate. 

To play devil's advocate for moment,  Then again who has chance play these units really? 

It does make logical sense to have body guard units, since its suppose to be firepower like Pocket Warship, aka fire support on large scale, with bodyguards covering the it's flanks.  It's not invincible as much early fluff seemly made sound like.

I think comes down to it, as far people whom write the stories. I don't know if they have time to play game to see how it works in game I suspect and still write about it.

[Church14]

I get the vibe the author didn't really understand how the Superheavy Mechs are suppose to operate.

Not just a vibe. I'll flat out say he didn't understand them, or willfully misrepresented them. Their presentation in novel does not jive with any other existing lore. He got their doctrine, strengths, weaknesses, and role of the technical officer wrong.

I think comes down to it, as far people whom write the stories. I don't know if they have time to play game to see how it works in game I suspect and still write about it.

If you're unwilling to research the topic, you are the wrong person to write for the topic. Full stop. No excuses

[Stormlion1]

The issue is that the Republic had to lose. So the Tripod design had to fail as a effective combat unit in Terras defense. But the Wolves did use them against the Falcons and so far as we know they still have ex-Republic troops fielding them in the short term.

Rather than the Wolves using the designs I would think they would push there use off onto the Foxes who will sell the designs into the various Inner Sphere powers.

[Metallgewitter]

Rather than the Wolves using the designs I would think they would push there use off onto the Foxes who will sell the designs into the various Inner Sphere powers.

In that case the Dragoons beat them to the punch considering they gifted their salvaged units including technical documentations to the League and the League seems to already be building them (or bought some from the Foxes). And the Federated Suns might also have begun to reverse engineer them from the few they got gifted from the Republic

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Like wasn't the right word.

Clan Wolf would have to go out of its way to use a crew-intensive mech when the one thing they should have an excess of is standard mechs. There's about a thousand clan mechjocks left, and there were something like 7000 mechs rendered inoperable on Terra. Between the few surviving wolf mechs, the rebuilt salvage, and Terran production, there's no pressure to assimilate the ares into their clan.

Wolf clusters would indeed need to go actively out of their way to develop a new doctrine around superheavies and there's no need to. Especially how far it would be from their standard doctrine of zoomies that's been plot armoring them to victory for the last 20 years. They can reassign the few ares crews that didn't quit to whatever general SLDF forces they create. Or dump them in one weird assault cluster that no trueborn wants assigned to. I expect wolves to evolve, but the ares feels like too much of a cultural/doctrinal jump for them to make in six months. If this convo is about wolves in 3155? Maybe they have a new ares doctrine.

Whereas Bears would have the people, and a doctrine involving slow, durable assaults that wouldn't need such a huge change to incorporate the ares. The Horses are embracing more mobile combined arms, but the Horde clusters are still a heavy/assault mech element and a fast vehicle group. Those could absorb an ares without pause.

How are you coming up with the bears having a doctrine involving slow heavy mechs that just churn forward?
The bears haven’t shifted from the Executioner since forever. The first slow Bear mech is the Mastodon, even the majority of our Standard mech variants are in the faster end. and the fluff says the Mastodon is having a hard time catching on cause it’s so different.

[Church14]

How are you coming up with the bears having a doctrine involving slow heavy mechs that just churn forward?
The bears haven’t shifted from the Executioner since forever. The first slow Bear mech is the Mastodon, even the majority of our Standard mech variants are in the faster end. and the fluff says the Mastodon is having a hard time catching on cause it’s so different.

Hm. Maybe I misunderstood bear doctrine.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Bear doctrine is kinda weird.  The Bears favor heavier mechs, but they also favor mechs that are unusually fast for their size.

[Metallgewitter]

Bear doctrine is kinda weird.  The Bears favor heavier mechs, but they also favor mechs that are unusually fast for their size.

Lyrans on steroids then? Though the Lyrans also seem to favor FAST Assault class Mechs

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

No, the Lyrans generally favor mechs that are average speed for their size categories: compare the Bears and their love for the highly maneuverable Gladiator/Executioner omnimech whereas the Lyrans prefer slow-moving bricks like the Atlas and Thunder Hawk, while only rarely utilizing abnormally maneuverable machines like the Berserker.

[Metallgewitter]

No, the Lyrans generally favor mechs that are average speed for their size categories: compare the Bears and their love for the highly maneuverable Gladiator/Executioner omnimech whereas the Lyrans prefer slow-moving bricks like the Atlas and Thunder Hawk, while only rarely utilizing abnormally maneuverable machines like the Berserker.

But they were actually happy when Hesperus introduced a fast Atlas after the Jihad though I get your point

[Jellico]

A Dire Wolf (and for that matter a super heavy Mech) wins through weight of fire. It may stay at range or Wade into battle, but once committed its fate is binary. Victory or death.

An Executioner can retreat. It hits and fades and probes and denies its enemy a result. When the enemy missteps and a weakness is exposed the Executioner is fast enough to exploit the vulnerability.

This is Ghost Bear doctrine. A watchful, defensive stance until the schwerpunkt is revealed, then speed is used to exploit it.
The gigantism is a function of very long term Ghost Bear wealth. They have long been rich enough to build to their preferences. Bigger usually offers more capability.

All this suggests against super heavy Mechs because they will struggle to keep up in the field. Slower Mechs are run, but more commonly in second line units. Which I suppose does suggest an opening for a specially second line super heavy. But then again, given how much defensive operations are based around tactical DropShip hops that is still a problem.

[Stormlion1]

In that case the Dragoons beat them to the punch considering they gifted their salvaged units including technical documentations to the League and the League seems to already be building them (or bought some from the Foxes). And the Federated Suns might also have begun to reverse engineer them from the few they got gifted from the Republic

Not the first time multiple factories for a design have sprung up. But it's easier to buy a finished product than invest in the facility yourself.

[Metallgewitter]

Not the first time multiple factories for a design have sprung up. But it's easier to buy a finished product than invest in the facility yourself.

For the time yes. But when said merchants is chummy with the ones you are waging war against you might consider doing it yourself at one point. Of course it will probably take some time before said facilities are up and running. The FM 3145 spoke about the exposed state of Devil's Rock and that the production centers for the Superheavies on Mars would be ready by the end of the 3140's. The Lague might take a bit less as they have more ressources then the Republic at the end of it's life but it might still take a lot of time

[Church14]

For the time yes. But when said merchants is chummy with the ones you are waging war against you might consider doing it yourself at one point. Of course it will probably take some time before said facilities are up and running. The FM 3145 spoke about the exposed state of Devil's Rock and that the production centers for the Superheavies on Mars would be ready by the end of the 3140's. The Lague might take a bit less as they have more ressources then the Republic at the end of it's life but it might still take a lot of time

Free Worlds League turned around and get a factory up in somewhere around 6-9 months.

FedSuns should take longer, as they didn't get as comprehensive of a kickstart as FWL, but the Ares should be quite buildable. Or Some evolution of it.

Foxes sell Terran salvage because they will do anything for money.

Whoever ends up owning Devil's Rock makes some, or maybe RAF actually moved the factories? I'd have to see the wording.

I could see that being the extent of production.
- Wolves let RAF superheavy abtakha run ares, dump them in a select assault cluster or SLDF general forces.
- Hegemony IIC uses Martian production
- FWL builds their own
- FedSuns builds their own
- Anyone else wanting one buys from the Foxes (taking a portion of Mars' production?)

[Metallgewitter]

Free Worlds League turned around and get a factory up in somewhere around 6-9 months.

FedSuns should take longer, as they didn't get as comprehensive of a kickstart as FWL, but the Ares should be quite buildable. Or Some evolution of it.

Foxes sell Terran salvage because they will do anything for money.

Whoever ends up owning Devil's Rock makes some, or maybe RAF actually moved the factories? I'd have to see the wording.

I could see that being the extent of production.
- Wolves let RAF superheavy abtakha run ares, dump them in a select assault cluster or SLDF general forces.
- Hegemony IIC uses Martian production
- FWL builds their own
- FedSuns builds their own
- Anyone else wanting one buys from the Foxes (taking a portion of Mars' production?)

The Devil's Rock facilities were taken over by the Wolves. It seems somebody simply forgot to activate the selfdestruction system. Buuuuut who knows who actually occupies Devil's Rock at the moment. In theory it could be the Capellans if they pivoted some forces there.

I would suspect that, if there are really SuzperHeavy facilities on Mars that the Wolves might just give them to the Foxes as a way of payment. Like "you are seeling them then you can just build them yourself!" Of course the main question is if those facilities (if they were ever completed) are still there. The Falcons weren't exactly the most generous of occupants when they took over Mars

[Von Jankmon]

The only purpose for a superheavy mech in the clan arsenal is to mount a Long Tom or Sniper artillery piece.  No, not the artillery cannon, the full fat version.
Normally artillery is hard to add because of clan doctrines.  But a mech big enough to serve in battle and provide artillery support, wirth room enough for armour and some direct fire weaponry.

Practical?.  Not at all, but it carefully skirts the dogmas of clan field organisation which casually eschews anything that is not a front line combat mech in almost all circumstances.