BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat

BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: jackpot4 on 14 January 2015, 11:03:05

Title: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: jackpot4 on 14 January 2015, 11:03:05
     Hi, I am fairly new to the game and since starting to play at the local store we have been using a lot of customs.  We stick to tournament legal tech and just run BV based games.  A few issues have arisen such as pulse boats with targeting computers and I'll need to say something if one of the newest players brings his list of mechs that only have pulse weapons and targeting computers.  This is one of the problems with customs obviously.  (I only have one or two pulse weapons in a force at most for example, so I can recognize and dont want to be part of the problem)

My question to everyone is how do they play?  Customs or stocks? 

     As I mentioned we use a lot of a customs and I nearly always have break even heat dissipation, sacrificing an extra gun or two for max armor and maneuverability.  because after having played all the computer games thats mostly what I did with my mechs there.

     I am still only a few months into playing the game but I am looking at stock designs from solaris skunk werks and some of them look horrendous.  One example is a Battlemaster variant that has its left arm's MG ammo in its right torso next to the right arm's PPC.  If the mech survives the hit to the ammo the PPC is gone and the left arm is useless.  It seems logical to CASE the left torso and keep the ammo there.  Then you lose the SRM which may or may not do its full damage rather than losing a longer range and consistent damage weapon like the PPC.

     Another thing I see is that some mechs like Atlas variants dont even have enough heat sinks to fire off even just two of their main weapons before going over their heat sinks.  One variant I saw, if alpha striking went up to 28 heat over their heat sinks (may have been another mech).  I get that heat issues make the game a bit more tactical, but with a +1 and +2 mod right there in the starting overheat I fear that I wouldnt hit anything the entire game with my typical rolls.

     Finally, one other thing I noticed is how many empty critical slots are open.  The empty slot in the head is often left open on stocks and same with the center torso.  On my customs I always put either a small energy weapon, heat sinks, or jump jets in the center torso/head (not jump jets in the head of course haha).  I tend to lose a mech once a game to a head shot, often in the 60-85 ton range so I try as hard as I can to give a little buffer.

     These are just things I am seeing that don't make sense to me and maybe its because I still fairly new they dont make sense; so if you guys could offer me any insight into how you run your own games, how you handle stock variants, or any other tips that might be useful, I'd appreciate it. 
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: bugman on 14 January 2015, 11:22:11
Everything is relative to the type of game you are playing. If the game is based on just maximizing combat effectiveness of mechs. Then custom mechs will just kill stock stuff in general.

So if your games are gun fights don't bring a knife.


You seem to be in a open type of game situation. Where BV and design are at a premium. Also I believe the Targeting Computer is now under several restrictions, no pulse and mulit fire guns.

This pluse and TC thing was a killer back when Fasa introduced the Clans. Turned many old players off.

You might need a different set of ground rules or private campaign to experience the fun of stock design play.

My personal campaign started stock and progressed to some modding. Then more advanced modding. But it is controlled and scripted. So it can be used as needed or wanted.

In a open event format you just need to set the ground rules. Like tech era and say all primary stock class. You just need to have the format set that all abide by. People can get real child like when they are forced to accept rules they don't like. But it needs to be fair for all.


Good luck. Your open form of BT can be fun. Just make sure you all have a good understanding on the format/rules.

You can choose to accept the old Fasa rules with no restrictions to the Targeting Computer if you want. If all agree....




Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: DarkISI on 14 January 2015, 11:25:18
Depends on what I'm playing.
Tournaments, events, pick up games with another group than my usual one or something similar: Stock models. A campaign that evolves over time: whatever works and is fun. :)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Frabby on 14 January 2015, 11:33:28
Of course, there's always the ultimate balancing procedure (attributed to King Salomon): Let one player/side put together both lineups for the battlefield; then let the other player/side chose which side has to play with which lineup...
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: DarkISI on 14 January 2015, 11:42:58
And never forget the basic rule of all: whatever works for your game.
Personal enjoyment has to be the top priority. If you feel you need one way or the other to have fun, play that way. If you have different opinions in your group then try to balance it by doing it one way for one game and the other for the next. Keeps everybody happy and is a fair compromise. :)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Psycho on 14 January 2015, 11:47:19
As you're seeing, I often find that allowing players to use customs in a loose fashion often leads to abuse of certain mechanics. It only takes one player to make it not fun for everyone else. If it is a continuing issue, I would suggest bringing up Reflective Armor (in Tactical Operations, IIRC); while you'd be stretching beyond TW rules, it is a hard counter to laser/pulse-boats. Even if you don't outfit your entire force with it, the threat of having his firepower halved will either make the pulse-abuser change his builds, or throw a fit. If he throws a fit, throw him out. The point of getting together to play is for everyone to have fun. If one person's "fun" isn't fun for everyone else, something has to change.

I think that once people get used to playing with stock designs, it generally allows for more balance. Since most 'Mechs have both flaws and advantages, it becomes a question of being able to pit your strength against your opponents weaknesses, while shielding your own weaknesses from their strengths. Bringing the right mix of forces becomes more effective than who has the most Clan LPLs on a design.

As to your comments on poor designs... yep, there are some really bad ones. There are some that look really bad, but perform better in a given role. There are also some that can be absolutely devastating when used well - and absolute crap when used poorly. Take the Nova (Blackhawk) H; with 10 Heavy Medium Lasers, it will overheat to a gross degree while firing all of them. Putting 100 damage into someone's back will also ruin their day. You can't stand back with it a 9 hexes and blaze away with everything every turn. You've got to maneuver and pounce when you get an opening. It's a matter of breaking out of your comfort zone and learning different tactics. Consider that if you do the same thing all the time, your opponents know what you're going to do as well as you do and can take advantage of that. Throw them off balance, and seize the advantage for yourself.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Kovax on 14 January 2015, 11:50:37
There's nothing wrong with a design which goes slightly over its heatsinking ability if all of the weapons for a given range band are fired, as long as it's not far enough over to seriously impact the unit next turn (still not a problem if you can jump into cover, or if you vaporize the opponent with the "alpha strike").  It's also fine to have a sharp distinction between long-ranged and short-ranged weapons, with only enough sinks for one or the other, since you normally only need one at a time (sure, we'd all LIKE to use both, but prioritizing is half the challenge).  That frees up a few extra tons which can go toward more weapons/armor/speed instead of heatsinks.

As pointed out, it can be a lot of fun learning how to get the most out of a "flawed" design, rather than trying to create the "perfect" unit.  Some of my favorite units to run have serious design issues, which makes it "interesting" to use them to maximize their strengths while covering for their weaknesses, instead of everything being "optimized".  As long as you're playing against other players who are out to play rather than win at any cost, it's fine.  When you add one or two "munchkins" who have to use every advantage in every game or they won't play, then you've got little choice but to either follow suit or play elsewhere.  Also, depending on your play style, the mapsheet, and your opponents, what works great in one case may be all but useless in another, so it's all subjective.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Col.Hengist on 14 January 2015, 11:53:36
I love stock mechs. There are some great ones and some turds but they all have flavor. Tac and pulse boats... Yawn.

Sure, the stick designs overheat, that's part of learning how to ride a heat curve. Some of these mechs are bracket fighters which have weapons meant to becfired at long range, medium then short. Some examples are the Penetrator ( a personal favorite ) which has the erll's at long until you get close then the 6 mpl's up close. Another is the stalker. Something for all ranges. You just have to learn how to use them.

As far as the tc+pulses... You can still use them for the -3, just not for targeting a specific location for the -3
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: bugman on 14 January 2015, 12:05:10
The computer games as I remember allowed for lots of custom and move up in mech design and tonnage. The Board game is much more than that. The original game really was all stock class 3025 tech.

So your perspective will be different from a old timer or even someone that has chosen to play stock units. It is all BT, just different types for different people/groups.

The old stock stuff had lots of issues that could be tweaked. I love tweaking it. But it is also just plain fun to play a Rifleman. Even against a Mad Cat. Not every time though.

Anyone can design better than the Designers of the game. Even they could have chosen to. They did not for I guess reasons, like adding character to the game.

My first game was with a Crusader vs a Marauder from a box set with card board mechs. Maybe the funnest game I ever played. All stock.

Many Clan era or newer players with all the new tech will have a different perspective on the game. But no matter what era stock will be at a disadvantage to custom. Any stock design can be made better in another players eyes.

Its fun to redesign and play them. But keep in mind that BV2 is not fool proof. A well designed custom should have a advantage.

PS I was thinking in the old terms of using them with no restrictions. Not currently playing with the Clan+ era. So I missed that detail.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: jackpot4 on 14 January 2015, 12:18:31
     A lot of what is being said makes sense to me, but I just hate having my guard down for a turn.  My mindset is to advance, stay mobile, and keep pushing forward.  I'm in no way trying to brag, but I just got out of the USMC infantry and that is where that mindset comes from.  Against one regular opponent I tend to make contact and push him back or force him to bring his forces together and take cover behind a mountain/cover.  Another opponent I play who has far more experience than I tends to end up being a wall of mechs slamming into a wall of mechs until one side collapses.

     Thinking I may be sacrificing mobility or accuracy for a turn or even having to fall back after dealing heavy damage just seems like giving up ground and giving the other side a chance to breathe.  For example I threw some improved jump jets on a karhu, brought it up to 8 jumping MP for 4 heat with a retractable blade.  Sure it gave me a high to hit defense mod but people scattered before engaging in close combat.  So I had to reduce it to regular jump jets was able to put a TC, two large lasers, two mediums, and keep the blade all while breaking even heat wise.

     My custom Battlemaster has a Gauss, LBX 10, 4 medium lasers, SRMs, and a small laser, so the range bands are all covered, and while the max damage only gets up to just under 60 points, he can keep moving and shooting aggressively. 

I'm just trying to give you guys a good understand of my train of thought to give you a better understanding of the type of stuff I am looking for.

     Do you guys have any suggestions for stock mechs that keep in this even heat exchange range?  I have been going through my collected mech models and their stock variants on solaris skunk werks but havent seen all the intro box set variants yet.  I have intro mechs, Victor, Blackjack, Marauder IIC, Grizzly, Bruin, Karhu, Kodiak, Warhammer IIC, Hellbringer, Fire Moth, and Valiant.  Any suggestions for stock variants to check out would be more than welcome!
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 14 January 2015, 12:49:00
I use custom stuff for one-off events, or as cobbled-together refits for a campaign (that Blackjack lost its right-arm AC/2 and we don't have a replacement, but we can hammer and tape a large laser and some heat sinks in its place, etc.), but I tend to stick to canon mostly. It reduces the cheese factory considerably.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: TigerShark on 14 January 2015, 12:52:40
I tend to find that newer, or less-experienced players, tend to gravitate toward customization. Finding and eliminating faults is one of the first things people do when they get ahold of construction rules. As you grow in experience or have a depth of knowledge of the game, you'll find that the challenge is lacking as it becomes brinksmanship: "Who can cheese the other guy out of a win?"
 
Stock variants are lacking in quality and require a bit more skill to operate. When you win, you earned it by using a less-than-optimal design. There's something to be said for that challenge.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: bugman on 14 January 2015, 13:25:11
I am more attuned to the 3025 tech era, so I can't really help with the specs your using. Without going to rule books and manuals. Maybe the other guys will have a suggestion on stock mechs for your tech era.

In general I would say that you will be at a disadvantage in a custom mech game, no matter the tech level. If in your mech mix you have some decent stock stuff, they will be playable. But you most likely be at a disadvantage with equipment, but not in fighting spirit. So you are not guaranteed to lose.

From your list the Victor is not going to over heat. With the new version carrying a Gauss it is a dangerous mech. The Warhammer IIC looks fun and pretty good with heat. The Marauder IIC looks like a model you need to balance your heat though. Thats my  quick look. Let the real experts on it chime in though. for this era.

The big issue I see is if your mix needs to be improved ask for suggestions and buy a couple of new mechs. Or get the group to try a limited format. Sometimes.

Out playing good players is more than being aggressive. Little luck helps, reacting to what they are doing well, limiting your own mistakes,  and picking the right time to take advantage of their mistakes.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Col.Hengist on 14 January 2015, 13:52:06
Probably the best stock mech for what you're looking for is the hellstar.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: bugman on 14 January 2015, 14:04:24
Probably the best stock mech for what you're looking for is the hellstar.

That's a real killer.  with a BV2 of 3084

Jackpot, how do you guys determine the force points your allowed?
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: DarkISI on 14 January 2015, 14:06:05
Jackpot, how do you guys determine the force points your allowed?

Mostly by whatever I would enjoy to do for the game. Allow only a relatively small BV but force people to use more units can lead to interesting games as can doing the exact opposite.
It really depends on what you are in the mood for :)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: JadeHellbringer on 14 January 2015, 14:13:16
I tend to find that newer, or less-experienced players, tend to gravitate toward customization. Finding and eliminating faults is one of the first things people do when they get ahold of construction rules. As you grow in experience or have a depth of knowledge of the game, you'll find that the challenge is lacking as it becomes brinksmanship: "Who can cheese the other guy out of a win?"
 
Stock variants are lacking in quality and require a bit more skill to operate. When you win, you earned it by using a less-than-optimal design. There's something to be said for that challenge.

I'd back that. My days of enjoying large pulse laser/targeting computer monstrosities are long past- I'll use a beat up old Dervish gladly over something like that these days for the challenge factor.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Brother Jim on 14 January 2015, 15:03:36
I don't.
I've been playing since Battledroids and I still love customs. Admittedly, I don't go for super-cheese unless everyone at the table is doing the same (or they're at least OK with me doing so and they gang up on me >:D ).

Most of my customs are either tweaks to designs (weapon swaps, etc) or are to match a mini from another game (CAV, Heavy Gear, Mekton).
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: jackpot4 on 14 January 2015, 15:20:42
That's a real killer.  with a BV2 of 3084

Jackpot, how do you guys determine the force points your allowed?

We kinda just talk the days before the game to determine what we want to use.  the brackets are typically 9k or 15k per side in each game.

I looked at the hellstar and that is almost the same as my custom Marauder IIC only I have a targeting computer on that with 3 PPCs.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: God and Davion on 14 January 2015, 16:22:56
I tend to find that newer, or less-experienced players, tend to gravitate toward customization. Finding and eliminating faults is one of the first things people do when they get ahold of construction rules. As you grow in experience or have a depth of knowledge of the game, you'll find that the challenge is lacking as it becomes brinksmanship: "Who can cheese the other guy out of a win?"
 
Stock variants are lacking in quality and require a bit more skill to operate. When you win, you earned it by using a less-than-optimal design. There's something to be said for that challenge.

I fully agree. I had played with TC+Clan Large Pulse Laser mechs and apologized after the easy victory. I defeated a Black Hawk KU and a Zeus 6S with a Dervish 7D and it is a great victory, much more challenging and interesting.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: grimlock1 on 14 January 2015, 16:35:25
While you can't please everyone all the time, you can try to placate everyone.

Set up a rotating schedule.  "Every other Tuesday is Stock Mechs Only."  Or take a page out of some of the Starterbooks.  Only 4 of the 12 Black Widow mechs are nonstandard.  So set a ratio of something like "1 custom per lance."  That is still abusable because they could reform on the field, but its an idea. Maybe put an artificial BV penalty on customs.  "Anything that doesn't come from an official record sheet pays an extra 15% BV."  Put repeat usage limits on a design or theme, "You have to wait a month until you can use a Pulse laser/TC boat again."

The younger players will eventually start to see the appeal in the stock designs and some of the older players might be convinced to tinker a bit more than they might have.

Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Kovax on 14 January 2015, 16:44:22
Boasting that you took down someone's stock 3025 Warhammer with your cheezed-out semi-custom Daishi is an achievement akin to clubbing baby seals, and the other players look at you funny when you bring it up.  When you take out that same WHM-6R with a standard Locust 1V, then you've EARNED bragging rights.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Orion on 14 January 2015, 16:51:54
To my knowledge, my group has used exactly one custom mech in a game since about 2001, and it turns out it almost exactly duplicated an existing stock mech.  I'll play with customs using mech design software at times, but feel zero need to ever use one in a game.  My friends use the software to print out record sheets, and never design customs.  We also almost always use the standard variant of a mech, and only use an uncommon variant if it is appropriate for the faction in play.  As far as we are concerned, the construction rules are only there to help with repairs, and are not even close to being a core part of the rules.

We've never done a game based on BV, and I don't think we've done it based on tonnage.  More along the line of pick two mediums and two lights thing, if any picking was to be done at all.  90% of the time the ref picked a force he knew the other player would enjoy using, and then chose something that would give a good fight to it.  The ref prints the sheets out and hands them out at the time of the game, and the players find out what they get at that time.  For each game, the player then choose one or more lances to send on a mission, and you gotta be sure to keep enough back to defend the base, because that might be one of the planned games as well.

It's probably been 12+ years since I last did a pickup game, and given a choice, it'll be at least that long before I ever do it again.  I actually quit a group because all they wanted to play was custom clan monstrosities in pickup games.  Without a campaign background and strong roleplay elements, it isn't worth my time to show up as a player.  I'll do it MegaMek just to mess around for a half hour, but not for a tabletop game.  I was the campaign designer and OpFor most of the time, and so would have a storyline set out that made me happy.  My friends have only minimal interest in that part of the game, and I'd guess they'd be happy with pickup games as a semi-regular thing.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sereglach on 14 January 2015, 20:43:27
Since Alpha Strike came out, I've been able to get back into Battletech.  I have a custom card for pretty much everything I field.  On the other hand, I also have at least a stock variant choice for each of those mechs, too.  Considering my chassis run the gambit from 3025 up to 3145, if someone where doing an era specific game, I'd have to pick and choose what I ran, and probably reorganize my companies.  One wonderful thing with Alpha Strike, though, is that those custom mechs really come at a hefty price.  The PV system in AS can turn a stock ~25 point mech into a >40 point mech after being customized.  Because of that fact, even my customized mechs are heavily tempered and are mostly customized to match the mini.  You might be able to field a company in AS for 300 points, out of custom mechs, but the person using stock variants could probably field a company and a half . . . which can make a huge difference if tactically played out right.

Now, way back in the day (about 20 years go), my old group had a solid role playing campaign going that went through (IIRC) 3030ish through the clan invasion.  About the time the counteroffensive was taking place to wipe out Smoke Jaguar, the group fell apart.  Anyway, in that game, the only customizing allowed was if you were using salvage and/or field refits to customize a mech.  Of course when the clans came out this equated into a bit of an arms race to get new gear for everyone to start swapping out parts for anything reasonably compatible.  However, we were also all only using single mechs with our RPG characters as the pilots, and getting that gear was, in essence, also a way of "leveling up" our mechs, so it was a bit of pride to be able to swap out the Flamers on my Firestarter with Clan Flamers and put on some extra heat sinks.

Given the choice, I have no qualms using custom mechs, nor with anyone else using them.  Someone brings a bunch of medium pulses with a targeting computer to cheese it out?  Whittle them apart with long range fire and keep them eternally at bay.  Everything has a counter in Battletech, and no matter how much customization someone does to their mechs, there's always something out there that can beat it.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: bugman on 14 January 2015, 21:10:03
We kinda just talk the days before the game to determine what we want to use.  the brackets are typically 9k or 15k per side in each game.

I looked at the hellstar and that is almost the same as my custom Marauder IIC only I have a targeting computer on that with 3 PPCs.

That's a lot of BV in one mech, either your Marauder or the Hellstar. These type of mechs put you on the upper end of the power scale imo, no matter the era. That is a high octane game style. Nothing wrong with it since everyone seems to be playing the same way. Because of the way you started, the PC and Clan+ tech for the table top. You are playing a faster and more deadly game. Playing 3025 stock mechs that several have mentioned will be a culture shock to you.lol.... Playing your custom Marauder or a "Stock" Hellstar, is 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other. No real difference with those load outs.

But its all BT in the end, whether it takes 5 rounds of combat or 10 to decide the game, still BT. Its just mechs. The main thing is you have lots of choices on how you want to play, the key will be to throw out some options to your group. See if they are receptive to a change of pace. As to the one TC/PLaser guy, well he will either go along with the group or not. Based on your description he won't be missed that much. He might surprise you though. The high octane game your playing might be contributing to all the custom killer builds.

You have the box set so you have some 3025 stuff. I suggest that you try a retro game.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Saint on 14 January 2015, 21:21:35
I love stock mechs. There are some great ones and some turds but they all have flavor. Tac and pulse boats... Yawn.

Sure, the stick designs overheat, that's part of learning how to ride a heat curve. Some of these mechs are bracket fighters which have weapons meant to becfired at long range, medium then short. Some examples are the Penetrator ( a personal favorite ) which has the erll's at long until you get close then the 6 mpl's up close. Another is the stalker. Something for all ranges. You just have to learn how to use them.

As far as the tc+pulses... You can still use them for the -3, just not for targeting a specific location for the -3

+1 I also prefer stock mechs, they are a lot more fun for me. That being said unless I'm playing in a tournament or a campaign which sticks to stock mechs I don't mind playing against customs.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: cold1 on 14 January 2015, 21:30:40
That's a real killer.  with a BV2 of 3084

There are some clan assaults that are pricier.  Blood Asp A comes to mind


I like customs but I tend to build either custom variants on existing omni chassis or new mechs that match some canon situation.  i.e. The Adders love the Night Gyr but it's gone, what would an Night Gyr Mk II look like in 3100.  The configs are all similar or in the same vain as the original ( think Thor Mk II) but upgraded (iATMs, superchargers, ferro-lam etc)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: jackpot4 on 14 January 2015, 22:08:28
That's a lot of BV in one mech, either your Marauder or the Hellstar. These type of mechs put you on the upper end of the power scale imo, no matter the era. That is a high octane game style. Nothing wrong with it since everyone seems to be playing the same way. Because of the way you started, the PC and Clan+ tech for the table top. You are playing a faster and more deadly game. Playing 3025 stock mechs that several have mentioned will be a culture shock to you.lol.... Playing your custom Marauder or a "Stock" Hellstar, is 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other. No real difference with those load outs.

But its all BT in the end, whether it takes 5 rounds of combat or 10 to decide the game, still BT. Its just mechs. The main thing is you have lots of choices on how you want to play, the key will be to throw out some options to your group. See if they are receptive to a change of pace. As to the one TC/PLaser guy, well he will either go along with the group or not. Based on your description he won't be missed that much. He might surprise you though. The high octane game your playing might be contributing to all the custom killer builds.

You have the box set so you have some 3025 stuff. I suggest that you try a retro game.

O I don't have cheese builds, I just always used the Marauder back in MechWarrior 2 and I remember always having 3 PPCs so I stuck with it.  I built a couple variants of it, one has a gauss and 2 LBX10s.  Most of my mechs have a healthy combination of lasers and ballistic, although I have never really been a fan of missiles.  I hate playing cheese and hate using it.  The Marauder tends to be the long range support/ distraction, when that thing is on the board it becomes the prime target and allows me to flank my enemy a lot of times.

Like I said the player who is potentially going to use a pulse star is new so only sees the value in a -3 modifier.  For example my Battlemaster I used recently had a gauss, lbx 10, medium lasers, and srms.  I like to mix it up to where I keep somewhat near the mechs prime model, but alter it enough to have a break even heat point and max armor.  I just looked at the stock Hellbringers and they have way less armor than my own did, even with just a fusion engine and 2 LBX10s!

At this point I am curious based on the knowledge that I have the intro box mechs, if anyone has suggestions for stock variants they use fairly often.  I play as the Rasalhague Dominion, 16 of my painted mechs are IS and only 9 are Clan.  My last game I used my custom Battlemaster I listed above and a Valiant to defeat two thors, I lost a Hellbringer the second turn in to a headshot, but the two IS mechs defeated the two clan mechs.  They were only using IS and tournament legal tech too.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Stormlion1 on 14 January 2015, 23:13:02
Stock primarily to start, but as a campaign goes on they can customize. For one off games stock only.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: TigerShark on 14 January 2015, 23:19:01
That's a lot of BV in one mech, either your Marauder or the Hellstar. These type of mechs put you on the upper end of the power scale imo, no matter the era. That is a high octane game style. Nothing wrong with it since everyone seems to be playing the same way. Because of the way you started, the PC and Clan+ tech for the table top. You are playing a faster and more deadly game. Playing 3025 stock mechs that several have mentioned will be a culture shock to you.lol.... Playing your custom Marauder or a "Stock" Hellstar, is 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other. No real difference with those load outs.

But its all BT in the end, whether it takes 5 rounds of combat or 10 to decide the game, still BT. Its just mechs. The main thing is you have lots of choices on how you want to play, the key will be to throw out some options to your group. See if they are receptive to a change of pace. As to the one TC/PLaser guy, well he will either go along with the group or not. Based on your description he won't be missed that much. He might surprise you though. The high octane game your playing might be contributing to all the custom killer builds.

You have the box set so you have some 3025 stuff. I suggest that you try a retro game.

Low end. More BV = worse unit. When you have a force of 15,000 and 5,000 is in one 'Mech, a single head cap can kill 1/3 of your army. And will. I'd just slap together a lame force full of LB-X Carriers and junk like that to play roulette with the Head. Eventually he'll black out.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: bugman on 15 January 2015, 07:36:22
Low end. More BV = worse unit. When you have a force of 15,000 and 5,000 is in one 'Mech, a single head cap can kill 1/3 of your army. And will. I'd just slap together a lame force full of LB-X Carriers and junk like that to play roulette with the Head. Eventually he'll black out.

Creative to say the least. I wonder if the TC/Plaser guy would consider this cheese???? lol......

I think this would be fun as hell to play out........ Death by a thousand knife cuts.

I think I might need to rethink some earlier advice. I told Jackpot to not bring a knife to a gun fight. I think this knife might work pretty good. lol......
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: StoneRhino on 15 January 2015, 07:38:57
Well, Jackpot, what you and the pulse boat player are doing is likely to be something pretty common, going through various phases most BT players go through. It is hard for a new player to pass up the apparently awesome combination of pulse lasers and targeting computers, even with TW rules where the pulse lasers cannot use the targeting computer to make aimed shots. A big -3 to hit is rather enticing, so you cannot really blame the new guy.

You pointed out your own customization phase, which is to try and hedge your bets by padding your mechs' critical locations with stuff you wouldn't mind using, such as a small laser. When you look at the game from the point of view of someone playing a game it makes sense to try and pad those critical locations, but if you were a weapon designer in the BT universe you wouldn't likely slap a small laser on the head of every mech you designed. The small laser would actually bulk up the size of the head, which would make it an easier target.

The stock designs have, for most of the game's history, attempted to take a balanced approach towards the weapons mix and positioning of such. If you look at a lot of the 3025/3039 designs you'll start to see a lot of machine guns and flamethrowers, but as you get to the later tech readouts many of those AI weapons have been dropped. Part of the reasoning for that is er small lasers were doing 3 points of damage to infantry and had better ranges then MGs and flamethrowers, making it a compromise. Now with TW rules those er small lasers are worthless against infantry, and the need for MGs and flamers have come back. A lot of new players want to just play "mech only" games, which leads to customs missing those AI weapons.

I would say that your padding of components via custom variants is on par with the new guy with targeting computers and pulse lasers. One could say that one is more "new" then the other, but both are pretty "new" things to do. At the same time both are valid moves and used by those that have played the game longer. What balances out what your friend is doing is his units' BV2 scores. He is paying for his pulse+TC combo with points, but what you are doing is something that is effectively free. Last I checked there wasn't a difference in the BV2 value of a mech that puts a small laser that is in the arm to start, into the head to pad the pilot. This means that your friend could point to you and say that you are seriously gaming the system.

Customs are allowed at the table nowadays, just as they were back in the days in the games that I have played. Some of the people are different, and so is the force selection. Where 2 friends that used to be around always used customs, the new person to the group seems to use forces that are made up of stock designs, but also does not use proxies. This is much closer to what I and another guy have always done, which is to use I.S. stock designs with very few changes. If someone else joined the group and brought all custom designs, as long as those designs were validated for BV2 scores, and tech, and they let us know what each design was, theres no problem.

Things seem to change as you play the game longer. I have gone from using nothing but proxies and always making a few tweaks to the designs used, and using any design that happened to be I.S., or Clan, depending on what I was playing, to more faction based forces. Also, I have started painting minis in specific unit paint schemes. It takes far more time to design a force then before, but its another challenge to the game, especially when that starts to influence the minis that you purchase. I have been picking units I like for some reason, some to fill out the units I am building; and some designs that I don't really care much for, but are either solid designs of a faction, or fill out units nicely such as a locust. What it comes down to is finding different aspects of the game and learning it, having fun with the challenge of it, and then finding other aspects. Its a matter of time before you and your friend move into different phases.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: mbear on 15 January 2015, 07:55:59
Set up a rotating schedule.  "Every other Tuesday is Stock Mechs Only." 

Put repeat usage limits on a design or theme, "You have to wait a month until you can use a Pulse laser/TC boat again."

If you do this you may want to include a "Maximum Munchkin" event: Players are encouraged to bring in their custom built Improved Jump Jet, Partial Wing equipped Pulse Laser Boat with Targeting Computer. "Who has the most cheese?"

Or take a page out of some of the Starterbooks.  Only 4 of the 12 Black Widow mechs are nonstandard.  So set a ratio of something like "1 custom per lance." 

Along with that, you may find the Customization rules in Historical: Reunification War (p. 147) or Historical: Liberation of Terra (pp. 146-147) interesting. They allow some customization but you can't go completely crazy.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Col Toda on 15 January 2015, 08:17:39
I went with TAG and Homing Arrow IV and semi-guided LRMs route allong with C3 and heavy weapons. My pre jihad mech lance was a Naganata with the Artemis IV FCSs removed and a command console added half ammo semi guided half standard . Two Dragonfire 4F with both medium pulse lasers removed and a C3 slave , a TAG and  2 medium lasers  added  lastly an Anvil 8m with the head laser replaced with a  C3 slave and the ECM replaced with armor .It had 2 tons of homing and one ton of standard rounds for the Arrow IV . As you see l replaced a two ton pulse laser with a C3 slave and TAG and got good results in turn.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: guardiandashi on 15 January 2015, 11:59:37
a couple of my "DUH" customizations was for the 3050 hunchback (HBK-5M), and the arrowcat (arrow iv packing catapult) because I find only packing a single ton of ammo for those massive weapon systems to be criminal.  in the hunchbacks case the change was easy pull 3 of the surplus DHS (from the arms) and replace them with ammo (I might also move the last DHS from the arm into the torso with the ammo also but ... )

on the arrowcat upgrading from 15shs to 10 DHS is again a no brainer idea for me, which would allow the mounting of up to 5 tons of additional ammo
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: TigerShark on 15 January 2015, 12:02:11
Yeah. Some of these shouldn't even have been TRO entries. They are one-offs which were more like field modifications than production variants. If anything, the -5M should have been mentioned as some kind of makeshift unit being fielded against the Clans which experimented with the recovered technology.
 
I'm solidly against listing severely flawed designs as regular TRO entries, outside of stuff like the XTROs.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: jackpot4 on 16 January 2015, 16:23:18
So I played a stock variant game last night and it was a cool experience seeing how heat worked more than I have before.  I used:

Blackjack BJ-1DC
Battlemaster BLR-3M
Atlas AS7-K
Victor VTR-9K
Valiant V4-LNT-K7
Grasshopper GHR-5H

The Grasshopper, Battlemaster, and Victor performed the best.  I was too quick with the Valiant and the Blackjack I had way out of position unsupported.  Yes, the Atlas was blasting things with the Gauss rifle, but when things got hairy that Kurita model overheated very fast...  I think a good change would be to add two heat sinks, making it 22, swap the 2 ER Large Lasers and 2 medium pulse lasers for 2 regular Large Lasers and 2 medium lasers.

It almost felt like there was a third enemy, heat!  Thanks for all the helpful posts!
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: guardiandashi on 16 January 2015, 20:57:17
So I played a stock variant game last night and it was a cool experience seeing how heat worked more than I have before.  I used:

Blackjack BJ-1DC
Battlemaster BLR-3M
Atlas AS7-K
Victor VTR-9K
Valiant V4-LNT-K7
Grasshopper GHR-5H

The Grasshopper, Battlemaster, and Victor performed the best.  I was too quick with the Valiant and the Blackjack I had way out of position unsupported.  Yes, the Atlas was blasting things with the Gauss rifle, but when things got hairy that Kurita model overheated very fast...  I think a good change would be to add two heat sinks, making it 22, swap the 2 ER Large Lasers and 2 medium pulse lasers for 2 regular Large Lasers and 2 medium lasers.

It almost felt like there was a third enemy, heat!  Thanks for all the helpful posts!

IMO the "better" fix for the atlas is to decrease the number of HS, swap them to doubles and stick the SRM6 back on it ... well it all fits, but I had some "distribution" issues, that I am not totally happy with such as ammo placement
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: jackpot4 on 17 January 2015, 02:45:50
IMO the "better" fix for the atlas is to decrease the number of HS, swap them to doubles and stick the SRM6 back on it ... well it all fits, but I had some "distribution" issues, that I am not totally happy with such as ammo placement

That is the same issue I have noticed with not having much critical space.  But with the setup I made I found that all the primary weapons can be fired with only 23 heat and you can sacrifice 1 large to shoot both mediums in the rear.  And still be able to punch.  I like the idea of keeping the lrm 20.

During this game i got a "magic bb" (two 1s on location for one point of missile damage) rolled for two crits and both were gyros.  It was pretty nasty but I like the reach.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Ice_Trey on 17 January 2015, 04:05:34
Stock only.

I warm up to the idea of Custom Mechs considerably if it's as part of a campaign, as there is a lot of risk involved in customizing a mech. I figure if someone wants to get liberal with a mech, there should be some risk involved in order to keep them from creating god-bots that steal the show. Just so much as swapping the single heat sinks for doubles in a Venom makes a so-so machine into an absolute beast, so not having any risk to the reward sits ill with me.

But if I'm just playing a run-of-the-mill "Let's pick 6000 BV and smash'em together" matches, I would be very clear about a stock-mechs-only restriction in place. I don't want to lose before I get to the table because I bring the mechs I read about in TROs and novels, while the other guy fields the meanest unbeatable assemblage of lego blocks without a backstory.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: House Davie Merc on 17 January 2015, 04:08:37
All canon stock mechs ALL the time .

Don't get me wrong ,I'd like to be able to just tweek a few
minor items on some mechs but that ALWAYS opens
up Pandora's Box .

Once that's open -going back is nearly impossible .

We did manage to go back after opening that box ,and it was
REALLY hard .


I'd like to see a viable "point system " for modifying units .

Something that forces players to work within a previously set limit .
Kind of similar to using Battle Value to maintain balance .

Each side gets X points for mods ,and mods all have a listed price .

" You get  6000 BV 2 and  300 mod points .
Minimum 4 units and maximum of 8 .
Unused mod points can be directly converted to BV . "
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Ice_Trey on 17 January 2015, 04:42:57
a couple of my "DUH" customizations was for the 3050 hunchback (HBK-5M), and the arrowcat (arrow iv packing catapult) because I find only packing a single ton of ammo for those massive weapon systems to be criminal.  in the hunchbacks case the change was easy pull 3 of the surplus DHS (from the arms) and replace them with ammo (I might also move the last DHS from the arm into the torso with the ammo also but ... )

on the arrowcat upgrading from 15shs to 10 DHS is again a no brainer idea for me, which would allow the mounting of up to 5 tons of additional ammo

Mind you, a lot of the "Duh" stems from equipment shortages, refits and retools rather than fully new mechs, and "New toy syndrome" commonly seen in the period.

Ferro Fibrous, for example. It's far smarter to go Endo, but endo means you have to gut the whole thing. Putting on a new shirt is a lot easier than replacing all your bones.

Also on the equipment shortages aspect, Arrowcat from Capellans likely didn't have great access to DHS, and/or thought it prudent to save it for line units like the Vindicator. The cappies were supposed to be one of the first on the scene to bring back homing Arrow IV, I think, so even one ton of those could do quite a number.

As for the Hunchback, that's just new-toy-syndrome plain and simple, not unlike the Grasshopper and Panther "Upgrades".
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: guardiandashi on 17 January 2015, 05:51:45
Mind you, a lot of the "Duh" stems from equipment shortages, refits and retools rather than fully new mechs, and "New toy syndrome" commonly seen in the period.

Ferro Fibrous, for example. It's far smarter to go Endo, but endo means you have to gut the whole thing. Putting on a new shirt is a lot easier than replacing all your bones.

Also on the equipment shortages aspect, Arrowcat from Capellans likely didn't have great access to DHS, and/or thought it prudent to save it for line units like the Vindicator. The cappies were supposed to be one of the first on the scene to bring back homing Arrow IV, I think, so even one ton of those could do quite a number.

As for the Hunchback, that's just new-toy-syndrome plain and simple, not unlike the Grasshopper and Panther "Upgrades".
I agree and I get it (in universe).  It makes a lot of sense for a lot of the refits to have issues. I think most of the hunchback refit details were good were good, however as a whole it had serious issues.
I mean look at what actually changed from the 4g to the 5m
the armor is the same, the ac20 itself wasn't changed, but the ammo was cased increasing survivability, the heat dissipation was doubled and the small laser was replaced with a small pulse laser, at the cost of 1/2 the ammo.  most of the changes taken in isolation (except the ammo change) were decent to good.  frankly its the ammo reduction that I have the biggest issue with.  and the fluff reads like this was a "standard refit /upgrade/ new model" like there are lots of them out there.  frankly loosing 1-3 of the "extra" dhs for more ammo, or loosing the small laser for the case would have been better... but it is what it is.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: FedComGirl on 17 January 2015, 07:13:21
I have no problem with flawed designs being a TRO. Not every unit is going to be as good as it looks on paper. It does happen that flawed units do make it into production. And sometimes units modified in the field end up being the basis for production variants. Besides not every unit is going to be perfect. If every unit were perfect there would be no need for upgrades or new units to replace the old.

Personally, I go with both. I like customs and I like stock units. I don't go for munckiny though. My customs are mostly campaign oriented. I like units with history to them. The rest are fill in the blank upgrades and downgrades, and technicals.

I would think it'd be getting more and more difficult to determine if a unit is a custom or not anyway. With computer programs you'd have to have all the products to check to see if an unfamiliar unit is canon or not.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: jackpot4 on 17 January 2015, 09:24:36
I have no problem with flawed designs being a TRO. Not every unit is going to be as good as it looks on paper. It d7oes happen that flawed units do make it into production. And sometimes units modified in the field end up being the basis for production variants. Besides not every unit is going to be perfect. If every unit were perfect there would be no need for upgrades or new units to replace the old.

Personally, I go with both. I like customs and I like stock units. I don't go for munckiny though. My customs are mostly campaign oriented. I like units with history to them. The rest are fill in the blank upgrades and downgrades, and technicals.

I would think it'd be getting more and more difficult to determine if a unit is a custom or not anyway. With computer programs you'd have to have all the products to check to see if an unfamiliar unit is canon or not.

I just wish the master unit list had the specs for mechs so we could check on them.  I cant lug Solaris skunk werks around and sarna doesnt have every detail about each mech.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: FedComGirl on 17 January 2015, 12:29:07
That'd be nice but then I think we'd have to pay to use it. It might be worth it if it were downloadable though. Then we wouldn't have to worry about internet connections when we game.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: TS_Hawk on 17 January 2015, 12:44:09
Customs vs Stock variants a lot of the stock variants don't have the armor because they have more firepower where as like the OP my customs are max armor but I have to sacrifice some of the weapons. The other thing 2 about my customs is that I have enough heatsinks to where I am not going to cook the pilot. And will still be able to run the mech.

However the sad thing is that you really can't use customs in Alphastrike as far as I know.

I just wish the master unit list had the specs for mechs so we could check on them.  I cant lug Solaris sjunk were around and sarna doesnt have every detail about each mech.

Download megamekHQ and use the meklab or just get the meklab separate
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Col.Hengist on 17 January 2015, 14:05:25
There is always machine shop and mech factory
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Cidwm on 17 January 2015, 15:00:44
       I don't know what the big deal is, let noobs bring pulse boats to the table. Makes your job easier as an experienced player. You will be able to school new players on how to actually play this game properly. Man for the BV he has to be paying for those custom TC+Pulse boats that I am sure every new player tries to build heat neutral you could bring all kinds of hurt to the table. Man for 15k BV I could buy a company of LRM carriers that I could parked behind a hill and fire 720 lrms indirectly at a Mech per turn while spending the rest on fast movers with tag. I could bring flamers on these fast movers to over heat those laser freaks. The new players Mechs would have to fight in the shade of my LRM rain. I could bring the weapon I really fear to face, LB-X auto cannons that turn pilots into salsa with out ever killing said machine. I could bring thunder munitions or any host of other strategies to win.

       Wait I wonder how many Savannah masters could I bring for 9-15k to show off real cheese? Runs off laughing manically! [wildandcrazy] >:D }:)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: cavingjan on 17 January 2015, 15:05:41
Or the record sheet PDFs. on a phone or tablet.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Caedis Animus on 17 January 2015, 15:40:47
Typically, we go with stock variants of choice, and go with customs for 1 'mech per lance. As we always play 2 lance games, this proves to be pretty useful, and it has one twist; We are not allowed to field the same custom against the same opponent twice without permission from said opponent.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: FedComGirl on 17 January 2015, 17:40:06
You'd still have to search through every record sheet to make sure the program wasn't cheating. That's a lot of record sheets. Do the record sheet books have all the variants from all the sourcebooks? How easy is it to search them? If they don't have every canon variant you're back to having to have all the sourcebooks with you. That's a lot of stuff to lug around. Not that I'm complaining about there being a lot of Battletech stuff. There's never enough stuff!  ;D 

But I see the programs as a double edged sword. They're great if you have them, and understand them. But they also make it easier to cheat and it also alienates those without them. There is a strong pre-printed record sheet or nothing sentiment. But it comes right back to how do you know those pre-printed record sheets are canon?  :-\
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: DarkISI on 18 January 2015, 05:35:12
You'd still have to search through every record sheet to make sure the program wasn't cheating. That's a lot of record sheets. Do the record sheet books have all the variants from all the sourcebooks? How easy is it to search them? If they don't have every canon variant you're back to having to have all the sourcebooks with you. That's a lot of stuff to lug around. Not that I'm complaining about there being a lot of Battletech stuff. There's never enough stuff!  ;D 

www.masterunitlist.info
There you check in which RS book you find the unit and ... tada
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: FedComGirl on 18 January 2015, 08:58:21
You would still have to have every Record Sheet plus carry the internet around with you. Not something everyone can do.

Besides does the Master Unit List have every unit in it? And I do mean every single unit. I remember being told and reading many posts saying if it wasn't on the MUL it wasn't canon. Not canon even though the book, opened to the page for that unit, would be sitting on my lap. I'm sorry but that kind of thing makes me question the validity of the MUL and in my mind puts it on par with the Heavy series of programs. A great resource if you have access to it and it works for your concerns. If not, it's just not much help.

Actually, the MUL has the potential to make things worse. Since the MUL controls which units are canon and if only canon units are allowed in the game, you could be denied the use of units even though you've got the book and record sheets with you. You end up with a fight over what's canon. Something printed or a web page that isn't up to date and may never be?  :-\

My apologies if I sound like a pessimistic witch but some of the attitudes I've seen here about customs and pre-printed record sheets, plus the MUL have really soured me on the use of programs and the MUL itself. If they work for you that's great. But I don't see them as the answer to cheats the way some see banning hand written record sheets.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: E. Icaza on 18 January 2015, 09:05:03
I pretty much play exclusively with stock 'Mechs these days.  There are so many 'Mechs and variants out there nowadays that if you can't find what you're looking for then you aren't looking hard enough IMO.  That said, I'd have no problem with custom variants in friendly games with folks that I trust not to go overboard.  There are counters to pretty much every sort of shenanigans you can cobble together using the Tech rules, but that leads to an escalation/one-upsmanship type of game that I generally find boring and pointless. 
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: DarkISI on 18 January 2015, 10:53:28
You would still have to have every Record Sheet plus carry the internet around with you. Not something everyone can do.

Besides does the Master Unit List have every unit in it? And I do mean every single unit. I remember being told and reading many posts saying if it wasn't on the MUL it wasn't canon.

You seem to be mixing things up: If it isn't on the MUL, it has no canon Record Sheet. That is very different from: If it isn't on the MUL, it isn't canon.
Canon Record Sheet simply means, a Record Sheet produced by CGL since the switch to Total Warfare and the TW style RS.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: cavingjan on 18 January 2015, 11:29:01
Usually. We strive to get everything up when it is released but sometimes it doesn't quite happen.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Khymerion on 18 January 2015, 11:44:40
For the most part, pick up games are stock anymore.  Helps people with knowing what is being brought onto the table.

Scenarios... mechs, customs within reason.  Vehicles...  if the player can justify it, sure...  I am a gear nut IRL and know that conventional forces are way too diverse to just be limited to the rather lackluster canon vehicle core... as long as the theme stays across the unit.

Campaigns...  hell, skies the limit.   Considering that there is usually a ton of RP or scenarios linked together, why not let players tinker accordingly?   It's my job as a GM to keep the story interesting and their job to have fun.  If that fun they are looking for involves them dragging that salvaged Hollander they got last session into a garage and rebuilding it from scratch or making a Hunchback carry two PPCs, more power to them.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: mdauben on 18 January 2015, 11:53:28
My question to everyone is how do they play?  Customs or stocks? 
My preference is to play 100% "stock" or "canon" mechs and varients for myself.  When I first started playing, there were a lot of people in the group who took delight in running uber-optimized customs which walked all over 90% of the canon designs (especially as we balanced games predominantly by tonnage).  This left such a bad taste in my mouth, to this day I have a poor opinon of custom mechs.

That said, I know for a lot of people one of the best things about the game are the customiziton rules and I cut myself off from a large percentage of the potential opponens if I won't play against customs.  I think if your opponents are reasonable people (and sorry, but a whole force of pulse boats is not reasonable), and you use BV instead of tonnage or weight class for balancing games, you can play stock versus custome games without too much trouble. 

Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Tymers Realm on 18 January 2015, 12:48:09
Now my view might mean all that much, but like most of the responses here, I'd say it will depend on the type of overall game you're playing.

For me, I hadn't really been involved in BTech for nearly 20 years or so and only got interested again after a Grinder demo at a convention in Nov/2014. My last books were the Post-Solaris 7/Unbound Tech supplment book and the 3055 Tech readout from the FASA days. So most of my experience, and mech tweaking, is up thru Clan Invasion/pre-FCCW era. I did try some of the BTech clicks that came out, but never really got into that, as well.

When I did play, the "regular" group didn't have a severe issue with customs, but it was mostly variants rather than OMG customs. Hell even when I do create variants/customs, I'm not looking to min/max, but to try and come up with a rough balance of mobility/armor/firepower/heat management. I prefer XL Engines and DHS over Endo-Steel and F-F Armor, but will use those if it works for the design, especially if I'm modding a 3050/55 stock design.

Basically, you're just gonna have roll with what happens and see where things go.

Thank you for the time...
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Terminax on 18 January 2015, 13:18:07
Just use common sense. Stock when appropriate, custom when appropriate. And don't play with "that guy" if he won't smarten up  O0
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: rebs on 18 January 2015, 13:35:27
I once, long ago, designed a 90 tonner with two AC/20s in the torsos with CASE (and a version with no CASE but more ammo because screw it, lets go for more dakkadakka and boom!), large laser in one arm, hatchet in the other with two MPLs sticking out the backside and as much armor as I could pack (luckily, it was a low heat curve, that helped).  And a standard fusion engine.  That for a free-for-all style game, we loved those, had a large table with lots of maps early on, and handmade styrofoam landscaping lovingly glued together and mounted on cheap press board tiles so that the terrain pieces could be re-arranged and added to easily with tiles of various sizes.  You know, like a lot of folks.

Of course it got kills, it had better get a couple here and there.  But it never stopped it from being eMASCulated by the thirty-five ton MPL laser boat, or the more nimble medium-heavies that could also brush of a couple MPLs to get into the back arc.  All of various designs that were also usually not stock, but you would still see the occasional 3050 design employed.  And then sometimes you just get skunked not far out of the gate. 

But basically, that was the key; more or less everyone was bringing their own designs to the table, so that inherently balanced things out.  MASC nerfing also helped, and TAC being ruled incompatible with pulse lasers seems to have been a good choice as well.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: FedComGirl on 18 January 2015, 16:40:22
Sorry Dark ISI but even after I pointed out where a record sheet was but I still got if it wasn't on the MUL it wasn't canon. That makes a lot of units unavailable in canon only games. Even if you were right, and I hope you are, that still leaves a lot of units we can't legally use in our games. Hopefully in time record sheets will be provided but it just feels like the list goes against the spirit of the game.

It used to be you picked out a unit, filled out a record sheet, and played. Pre-printed sheets just let you play faster. Now if it isn't on a list you can't use it, pre-printed record sheet or not.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: cavingjan on 18 January 2015, 17:23:45
Sorry Dark ISI but even after I pointed out where a record sheet was but I still got if it wasn't on the MUL it wasn't canon. That makes a lot of units unavailable in canon only games. Even if you were right, and I hope you are, that still leaves a lot of units we can't legally use in our games. Hopefully in time record sheets will be provided but it just feels like the list goes against the spirit of the game.

It used to be you picked out a unit, filled out a record sheet, and played. Pre-printed sheets just let you play faster. Now if it isn't on a list you can't use it, pre-printed record sheet or not.

To out knowledge, everything is currently in except Primitives 4 and that was pending errata. But I'll see about making sure the units themselves are listed when I get a chance this week.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: O5P_Ghost on 18 January 2015, 22:00:32
Usually with customs it had more to do with my hate on ac5's and srms. Any ac5 unit got replaced with a ppc and heat sinks or armor or a large ladder and armor. Srms got replaced with me lasers. As I've  gotten older I like srms so that a panther with 3 ml and a ppc is less appealing.

The other issue/mod was replacing mg with flamers. I always died to ammo explosions so that was usually a quick mod. After 3050 I would do SPL instead.

I don't mind customs so much if it's for flavor, lpl for snppc, my tenshi mod that removes the 5 lppcs and the RL for a hppc and two lppcs. But when it's just munckinism it cheeses me off. I then go full bore on the munch unit, 8 on 1 fire and all.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: TigerShark on 18 January 2015, 23:09:34
Most of this could also be solved by a simple policy by CGL:

If you aren't capable of providing a record sheet release, don't put it into a product.

There are WAY too many units in TROs' or book's Variants section which never receive record sheets, or get them years and years later. There's no reason for this, especially if a Record Sheet release for the product is being sold as "Unabridged." Would be easier just to remove the mention of the variant from the book and wait for a later product, when one can be given.

Option 2? Provide a section in the Errata portion of the site for a "logic standard."

Example:

"If no record sheet for a product is available, players may use the following logic standard to create a record sheet, until one is officially published:

Engine
Non-Moveable Crits (actuators, Null-Signature System, Stealth Armor, etc.)
Heat Sinks
Jump Jets
Weapons
CASE
Construction Materials (Endo Steel/Ferro-Fibrous/Ferro-Lamellor, etc.)"

Now the above is technically how most sheets actually put their stuff, with quite a few exceptions, but it could make a VERY easy solution to people complaining about record sheet releases. At least the unit can be used and evaluated using the official (and unofficial) Mech designer programs. i.e.: BV and Cost estimates
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: FedComGirl on 19 January 2015, 04:29:28
Thank you cavingjan. Hopefully everything is up but the last time I looked a lot of support units weren't listed. I do admit it has been a while since I looked though. If there's a record sheet in a source book maybe that book could be listed until the sheet is placed into a larger record sheet product? And if there isn't a record sheet maybe it could have NA listed? At least then we could still get fractions eras and intro/extinction dates.

Tigershark I wouldn't go so far as not introducing new units. Since I like new units, not having more would be bad. Your logic standard thing for filling out record sheets I think would be doable.
If everyone knew what items were listed in what order then I would think there'd be less problems because it'd match official sheets better. I think that could even be put on units stats page. Make the record sheets list items the way they are on the stats page.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: cavingjan on 19 January 2015, 08:36:09
If it doesn't have a record sheet, it won't have a BV number. The MUL filters that. The MUL also lists the source book and also the record sheet collection, if any. If the second is blank, that is another indicator of no record sheet. 

It is the easiest way to keep track of the status of these side mentions. The bulk of the units in the MUL without record sheets are one off mentions in nonTRO sources: People's custom rides, stray mentions in a historical, etc.

For the simple units, if we have the items that you are saying we should mention, we often have the record sheet, excepting the units types that are hand made in an image editor. We won't give any firm details unless it has been properly vetted which again usually is via record sheet.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Akira213 on 19 January 2015, 08:44:02
we mostly play IntroTech games with stock units. Mostly Mechs. All of the members in that group play BT for at least two decades, and the "build-customs-phase" is long gone ;)
The only customs we more or less regularly use are IntroTech downgrades of mini we own and that don't have a IntroTech version, like Axman, Falconer, Komodo, Berserker or Maelstrom.

We have different ways to decide force strengh and/or numbers. Sometimes I choose both sides and then we roll which player is on each side and which of the two combos is used by who. Sometimes it's based on BV2 (especially in those rare occassions when there is more than IntroTech on the field. Sometimes we simply roll, look at each force and decide together which Mech has to be rolled again to make it somewhat fair. And sometimes we just keep it uneven. Then its not about who wins, but just how costly the victory gets.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: FedComGirl on 19 January 2015, 13:32:56
cavingjan, so you're saying that the MUL does list units with a no record sheet note on the page? I can have the MUL list only units without BV?  If so then that would actually be a big improvement. I remember being surprised when the Uni Cargo Mech finally got entered on the list after a couple years even though there was a variant with a record sheet.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: cavingjan on 19 January 2015, 14:11:11
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5321/uni-atae-70-cargomech
and
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6977/uni-atae-70m-cargomech-mod

Looks like we have another version from the RS:VA to enter yet. Looks like we are still pending AS stats but I'll get them entered this week around the newborn's sleep schedule. I already had that record sheet collection opened getting ready to double check that they had made it in.

By default, the MUL does not list units with 0 BV. There is a check box for that. Granted once you fine one, all variants will show on the Other Models list. A lot of work going into it and most of it probably isn't even noticed. Last export I have shows that the MUL has enough 6,000 units.

We have some new things that will hopefully be appearing soon.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: mbear on 20 January 2015, 10:23:40
I'd like to see a viable "point system " for modifying units .

Something that forces players to work within a previously set limit .
Kind of similar to using Battle Value to maintain balance .

Each side gets X points for mods ,and mods all have a listed price .

" You get  6000 BV 2 and  300 mod points .
Minimum 4 units and maximum of 8 .
Unused mod points can be directly converted to BV . "
That's sort of how the customization rules I mentioned earlier work. And I think system similar to what you propose was used for some of the 'Mech refits in TRO3085 Old is the New New, but I don't have those rules handy to say with any certainty.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: FedComGirl on 20 January 2015, 12:43:20
cavingjan, it looks as if you've made a lot of improvements to the MUL since I looked at it last. Thank you. I know it was a lot of work and I do appreciate the effort.  O0   I hope you're little one sleeps well so you can sleep too. :)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: kaliban on 21 February 2019, 13:33:57

Given the choice, I have no qualms using custom mechs, nor with anyone else using them.  Someone brings a bunch of medium pulses with a targeting computer to cheese it out?  Whittle them apart with long range fire and keep them eternally at bay.  Everything has a counter in Battletech, and no matter how much customization someone does to their mechs, there's always something out there that can beat it.

totally agree with you. By the way, when I play with stock variants I have fun but when I play with my own designs I have two times the fun.

If you just play with the stock variants you don't enjoy good part of what Battletech can offer you as a game
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Kit deSummersville on 21 February 2019, 13:42:52
You do know you're replying to a thread that was last active over four years ago, right?
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: kaliban on 22 February 2019, 16:37:17
You do know you're replying to a thread that was last active over four years ago, right?

What does not prevent someone to read it, reply and restart a discussion
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: The_Livewire on 24 February 2019, 10:25:28
Jumping on the threadromancy...

Customs, like everything else, is fine in moderation.  I have a sheet for my sinister Wolverine, it's a 3m with all the locations flipped.  Not cheesy, just matches the mech. I mostly play Megamek against the bot, so it's fun to tweak, not rebuild, designs. 

I'm also at the age where I might run one custom in a company on the server, or maybe as many as a lance.  Since there are so many designs circa 3140, the 'need' for customs is lessened.  Still it's fun to see 'how much plasma can this thing put out?' or 'How can I best use the Long Tom Cannon?'  Or for EA fans like myself, "What would the next generation of Royals be?"

I DO think customization should be addressed formally.  With the proliferation of Battletech online (Both the turn based Battletech game, and MWO) customization is *encouraged*  If we are getting some of those players lured in with the new boxed sets, explaining why they can't take their Ciciada, drop the engine rating load it up with medium lasers and "fire ALL THE LAZORS" when they show up at the shop is a good idea.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 24 February 2019, 10:53:11
With over 3300 mech and 1000 vehicle variants I would hardly say I’m missing out on a good part of what the game has to offer. Especially not with quirks and SPAs now available. I don’t hate customs or anything I’m just at the point where I don’t really need them unless I’m making a boss mech for a campaign.

Different people get different things out of the game. I get a lot more joy out of playing with a bunch of imperfect pieces and getting good results
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Crimson Dawn on 24 February 2019, 13:14:55
My wife and I like the idea of having a unit and on mech with a main character that we play.  That one mech gets to be made custom over time the rest we will keep as stock variants.

Now one problem I do end up having is that I often like the look of certain mechs but HATE the load out or the reverse.  Sometimes I get lucky and a variant comes out that fits my favored load outs but other times sadly not.  For instance I am trying to use only mechs with official variants that I have miniatures for which includes the current box sets and the introductory set (with the atlas on the cover).  My mercenary company is going to be all jump capable (its part of the theme) and they will have only 1 assault mech.  I really want to use that new battlemaster mini but sadly as far as I know there are no battlemasters that have jump jets.  Thankfully for my theme I do have the lance pack that came with a victor so I do have an assault mech that fits my requirements but it does not fit my style (I am not a fan of auto cannons but still it is a 20 and it does have a decent amount of ammo).  If an official battlemaster comes out with jump jets I will probably switch to that.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Hellraiser on 24 February 2019, 13:27:38
  If an official battlemaster comes out with jump jets I will probably switch to that.



From Sarna   ;)


Quote
BLR-4L
This BattleMaster variant first seen in 3081 is unique to the Capellan Confederation. Equipped with Stealth Armor and a Guardian ECM Suite to power it, the traditional weaponry has been replaced with a Light Gauss Rifle and MML-7, supported by a Light PPC and ER Medium Laser in each torso. It also carries three jump jets, allowing it to cover 90 meters at a time. A Light Fusion Engine provides power and increases survivability. BV (2.0) = 1,932[32]


BLR-K4
This version introduced in 3074 is based on the BattleMaster K3. Its top speed is the same as that variant, but it mounts five Improved Jump Jets that allow it to cover 150 meters per jump. A Heavy Duty Gyro allows it to stay in the fight, using its Gauss Rifle, Snub-Nose PPC, Large Pulse Laser and two ER medium lasers to great effect. BV (2.0) = 2,232[46]



Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Crimson Dawn on 24 February 2019, 13:33:32


From Sarna   ;)

Thanks.  Unfortunately I forgot to add the last part that we are playing introtech so I was not looking at those.  That was my bad!  We are playing at a nebulous time somewhere in the succession wars so we could not use those....yet.  Perhaps in the future I will get to try that second one after we decide to let the clans invade.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Darzoni on 25 February 2019, 09:01:01
The answer my brothers and I came up with was: Both.

To explain: We started with stock only for a campaign because we felt stock models were better to learn the game with, as we'd run face-first into the limitations and learn better tactics.  Since it was a campaign, we devised rules that let us capture/salvage enemy 'mechs, including recovering intact equipment.  So we also had to earn our custom designs by figuring out the best way to grab the part we wanted.  The end result is we thought a lot more about what each 'mech we had was most useful for and how to use it.  I think the most we did with our 'mechs was swap a weapon or two; nothing radical like changing engines or adding armor.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: jackpot4 on 08 March 2019, 22:14:23
Since I created this thread our group has suspended the use of custom mechs as we devolved into "gundamtech".  Only recently have we begun experimenting with minimal modifications such as dropping bpods or c3 computers. 

The problems with customs, like I mention in the original post if you wind up making them min maxed.  Minimal negatives and many positives.  You wind up with a monstrosity like a Karhu with 8 improved Jump Jets, pulse lasers, a Targeting Computer, and a Retractable Blade. 

What I have learned since this post is that the imperfection of the stock variants make it both a challenge and fun.  It is so much more satisfying having a mech that is difficult to run between weapons and heat than a non stop sprinting, pew pew pewing, heat efficient gundamech. 

If anyone is just starting out, I say stick with stock variants.  If you do make an modifications, don't do much more than (the Wolverine 9K for example): Pull the C3, both bpods, and the one armor point from the rear CT and give it an SRM6 instead of a 4, and medium pulse in the head.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: StoneRhino on 09 March 2019, 04:00:02
One could say that you are also contributing to part of the problem with the game. You are stuffing small stuff into vital areas to fill out crit slots, not because you need a small energy weapon in the head, but you are trying to work the system to reduce the chance that a critical hit to the head will have less of a chance of hitting your pilot. The core of the problem here is that you are treating the game as a game and filling out your designs accordingly.

The question is if this is any different from using nothing but pulse lasers and targeting computers? In a realistic sense, targeting computers and pulse lasers should be rather dominant in most designs. We can throw out the "but targeting computers are expensive/rare/ hard to produce/only X faction has them" since people seem to think that a universe where "Life is cheap, Battlemechs are expensive" suggests that all combat would be conducted using battlemechs instead of rarely. If you see a single mech you should see a company or half of one of vehicles, and at likely 2 or 3 times as many infantry since there are a few types that can easily keep up with an assault mech. Lets not even get started on how often assaults should be seen versus how often they are seen in game!

If the games are being balanced by BV2 then you really shouldn't have a problem with the pulse+TC combo as they are paying for that gear. It might be annoying in game when you can't hit the side of a barn, or even a mountain painted as one. That is likely the issue, not that the pulseboat is invincible. What you should look into is inferno SRMs, plasma cannons, and battle armor with flame throwers. Start roasting their mechs and see how effective they are at sinking additional heat. The good thing about the game is that there is always a counter to something.

Regarding the question, the only time that I really used many customs was when I first got into the game and all that we had were 6 or so designs in the back of the rules book at the time. It was a necessity, but beyond that point in time I have used mostly stock designs. There have been a few modifications, but that is mostly removing a medium laser for a ton of armor, or C3 that someone else used. I don't really count ammunition as a modification, however if one does then that is the vast majority of my mods.

Some of the stock designs have issues, but then again what machine is perfect? The stocks are designed in a way that a company would design one, not how a player in a game would. Some of the compromises are still odd, and I hate the Atlas K variants for their single heatsinks. That is one of those variants that I might use, but might consider modding, but likely mod and then scrap it.

Of the mods in the past 5 years, I have tried to post them on a forum ahead of time so that nobody is surprised if it shows up on the table and needs an excessive amount of time to go over it. It assumes that the players are even familiar with the stock design in the first place, but I would rather it be known since I have been playing more in teaching mode then to win.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: RifleMech on 09 March 2019, 23:37:08
When I mod its more story driven. I do like stock designs and theyre either new units, have lots of parts available, or a lot of money has been spent keeping it in original condition.

Upgrades are a result of a bonus/salvage, replacements, or testing new things. That or someone spending lots of money on the best gear available.

Then there's the units held together with bubblegum and bailing wire and whatever is available to keep the unit running.

So I could have a clan Mech with TC and pulse and all the positive quick that can be appiled. Only the pilots mortgaged the family holdings so much they're about to put a bounty on his head and sell the Mech. I could also have a FrankenMech that's half industrial with an IC engine, rifle cannons and commercial armor, and gets about on a single track unit because that's all that was available.

As long as we have fun we're good. Ultimately that's what a game is about. Having fun. If its not fun it's not worth it.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: grimlock1 on 10 March 2019, 12:07:19
As long as we have fun we're good. Ultimately that's what a game is about. Having fun. If its not fun it's not worth it.

That's kinda the mic drop right there.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 10 March 2019, 12:09:17
I mean you could start and end any rules discussion with that and walk away but then why discuss anything?
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: RifleMech on 10 March 2019, 22:25:32
Could discuss how wild creations got and how well or not they performed.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Mohammed As`Zaman Bey on 11 March 2019, 05:05:48
  For pickup games, Stock Mechs. For campaigns, Custom designs win.

  The above being said, some of the best stock designs have been the second line Clan Mechs, such as the Viper/Black Python, which seems to be an optimized non-Omni. In scenarios, I usually dump the MG ammo and go to town. In campaigns, getting my hands on a Viper is usually a primary goal...

  The above being said, as a GM, I make sure players have the time and techs capable of straying from proven stock designs. The funniest scenario was a player who begged for TSM for his Mech and on tabletop, could not manage his Mech's heat even with notes written by another player who did all the figuring for him. We called him a "D&Der" who couldn't accept the fact that stuff didn't fall down after he fired at them...so he'd wind up firing more weapons that messed up his heat, which amused all of us.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Elmoth on 11 March 2019, 08:22:03
For games we tend to go for stock mechs and their official variants. However, we tend to play BT as a RPG, so custom mechs tend to crop up due to damage that *I* cause on their mechs, and the salvage and repair shops they have access too. Never more than small modifications, and in general we tend to keep MGs and stuff like that. One of my players swears by his MGs after they saved his ass twice in a row in a city fight.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Kovax on 11 March 2019, 09:47:14
One simple answer to the TC/Pulse boat syndrome is abut a thousand BV of infantry and APCs to go with your regular units.  Either they direct their fire at the cheap APCs and infantry instead of against your own 'Mechs as they close, or else they suddenly find themselves knee-deep in infantry that they can't easily get rid of.  Those pathetic machineguns and flamers that everyone automatically replaces suddenly don't seem like such a bad idea, and those munchkin designs don't have them.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Apocal on 11 March 2019, 21:02:34
Those pathetic machineguns and flamers that everyone automatically replaces suddenly don't seem like such a bad idea, and those munchkin designs don't have them.

1. That's a trick you play once, then it becomes a pair of SPLs or flamers to handle the threat. Those weapons hardly require taking away much from any design, save for the most absurdly crit- or tonnage-limited.

2. Fire in general hard-counters infantry/BA and doesn't require MGs or flamers to start. All you need is a woods or field hex.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 11 March 2019, 22:23:02
A pair of spls is not going to cut it against an infantry munch force
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Finlos on 11 March 2019, 23:05:47
Mass infantry is why I like to include artillery.  Not always, just often enough to keep my opponent guessing.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Apocal on 12 March 2019, 03:39:17
A pair of spls is not going to cut it against an infantry munch force

They will do as well, or better, than the singleton or pair of MGs fielded on your typical early canon design. A thousand BV worth of cheapish infantry, even accounting for transport, is a lot of units. It is a hard-cheese counter that breaks more than it fixes. Tactics such as that won't push the stock designs back into viability, it will simply invalidate even more of them by adding another set of prerequisites to be considered worthwhile.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Elmoth on 12 March 2019, 07:54:28
If the infantry made the ubbermech player having to scramble for a counter to the infantry, well, the infantry has alrady done its job and can be left at home for most games :)

Cheers,
Xavi
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Kovax on 12 March 2019, 08:58:41
If the infantry made the ubbermech player having to scramble for a counter to the infantry, well, the infantry has alrady done its job and can be left at home for most games :)

Cheers,
Xavi
He gets it.  You don't do that to win, you do that to tell the muchkin player "If you want to game the system, I can do that too, and you're not going to like it."
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 12 March 2019, 09:23:59
You could call that victory but if you're making me bring out my clan infantry points that can hit for 33 from 21 hexes (among other horrors), I'm going to make sure you have a very bad time.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: The_Livewire on 12 March 2019, 09:30:07
Well in a BV system, there's always the Guardian Jump bomber loaded with FAE bombs.  Or if you want to really escalate to teach the munchkin a lesson, see my sig. :-)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: BloodRose on 12 March 2019, 18:13:34
Customs are fine, in a limited basis or as a way to test a new unit idea out (conventional fighters, tanks, infantry, etc, there are far too few of these in-game) but if a player is getting too munchkinny with them then use the game against him. BT is a combined armsgame for a reason, and the vanilla toolbox alone is massive.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Apocal on 13 March 2019, 10:00:43
If the infantry made the ubbermech player having to scramble for a counter to the infantry, well, the infantry has alrady done its job and can be left at home for most games :)

Cheers,
Xavi
He gets it.  You don't do that to win, you do that to tell the muchkin player "If you want to game the system, I can do that too, and you're not going to like it."

If you're bringing a balanced force to the table after that, then it goes back to No. 1: you haven't done much to harm his min-maxed fit except forced (but possibly not, because there are other counters for infantry) him to include a couple of AP weapons on his TC/pulse boat. Enough AP weapons to counter a reasonable infantry portion of your opponent's BV are very easy to fit, by design. A Warhawk C includes a flamer, no problem. Could include more, no issues. Still considered a cheeseboat. Would still be a cheeseboat if it had triple flamers or cSPLs on it.

You can increase the level of infantry spam to a level that definitely would break any TC/pulse design they can come up with, sure. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that well before TC/pulse stops making sense, infantry spam (along with jump bombers, hover hordes, massed field guns and other such) is just as game-breaking -- but especially in the case of stock designs or reasonable customs. After you cross that threshold, there really isn't any reason to show up with anything resembling a fluff-accurate force.

So just shortcut all that mess and tell him "stock mechs only." If he has a problem with that, or leans hard into justifying the cheesiest stock TC/pulse combos, find a new opponent.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: grimlock1 on 13 March 2019, 10:05:31
There's always next week's game.  "Sure we'll play min-maxed customs this week, but next week we are playing stock 3025.  Deal?"

Or "Play customs this week and I'll spot you 15% BV in next week's stock game."

Or "I'll spot you 5% BV for every custom unit I field."

Rather than trying to punish the other player for liking a different style, offer them something.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: dgorsman on 13 March 2019, 10:39:23
Not everyone has the time to spend endlessly tweaking designs.  Sometimes you're just dropping into a pick up game for some fun.

One thing we've done in the past is keep a binder with large numbers of randomly selected Mechs, with pilot skills auto generated for a set BV ~ 2000 - 2500.  Players randomly draw a sheet and have to use what they get until it's dead.  Rinse and repeat.  Kind of fun trying to do something with a 0/0 Locust, or 6/6 Madcat Mk II.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 13 March 2019, 10:41:43
There's always next week's game.  "Sure we'll play min-maxed customs this week, but next week we are playing stock 3025.  Deal?"

i know you just used this as an offhand example, but I can think of few things that would convince a muchtech player that they were on the right gameplay path than giving them 3025 machines  ;D

from my experience the munchy shit tends to be a phase that transitions into a more nuanced, practical "campaign customs" sort of mentality that people have talked about in this thread so I just ride it out until they find some chill.

it's the dude that's played forever and won't bring out anything but cheese that gets me to reach for the toolbox full of spite and vindictiveness
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: grimlock1 on 13 March 2019, 13:17:44
i know you just used this as an offhand example, but I can think of few things that would convince a muchtech player that they were on the right gameplay path than giving them 3025 machines  ;D

from my experience the munchy shit tends to be a phase that transitions into a more nuanced, practical "campaign customs" sort of mentality that people have talked about in this thread so I just ride it out until they find some chill.

it's the dude that's played forever and won't bring out anything but cheese that gets me to reach for the toolbox full of spite and vindictiveness
Or early Jihad, or More Tales of the Black Widow, mission 6.  Whatever.  Make it a conversation, not a pissing match.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 13 March 2019, 14:21:50
we have obviously had two very different experiences with munch players and their willingness to change. when it's clear i can work with someone i will. i work with teenagers in my professional life. i don't need to be told about the merits of carrot vs stick. 
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: RifleMech on 13 March 2019, 15:43:44
I'll take the stick. You can have the carrots. I hate carrots.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: grimlock1 on 14 March 2019, 08:24:11
we have obviously had two very different experiences with munch players and their willingness to change. when it's clear i can work with someone i will. i work with teenagers in my professional life. i don't need to be told about the merits of carrot vs stick.
I apologize for patronizing you.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Colt Ward on 15 March 2019, 10:33:57
One could say that you are also contributing to part of the problem with the game. You are stuffing small stuff into vital areas to fill out crit slots, not because you need a small energy weapon in the head, but you are trying to work the system to reduce the chance that a critical hit to the head will have less of a chance of hitting your pilot. The core of the problem here is that you are treating the game as a game and filling out your designs accordingly.

Except . . . Wolverines, as the basic chassis he was citing, tend to have med lasers in the head.  A few models do not, but most do . . .

I have gotten to the point for campaigns that I like to use a MW4 hardpoint type system for battlemechs with a single exception- I will bolt RLs on to any location since IMO that fits their fluff.  Omnis?  Omnis are wide open, after all its one of their advantages.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: BloodRose on 19 March 2019, 06:45:47
I think I should mention a custom design I made for my Mercs. The concept was to take a damaged Assassin and rebuild it with the parts available to make a spotter replacement for the units previous spotter that had suffered a sudden and fatal case of AC20. Why an Assassin? 2 reasons, 1 because I had a spare Assassin that my drunken self had cleavered off of the base of a 2nd hand Mech I got and 2, because it really is an underdog Mech.

The redesign fitted the Assassin with a Light engine, added in a Small Pulse Laser and a TAG and crammed in an ECM, then fitted a retractable blade. In just-pre civil war era. Is it game breaking? Heck no, it is still light and poorly armed, but it is also fun to run and can be quite scary for many opponents to face when backed by LRM carriers or Arrow-IV support.

My point here is that redesigns and customs do not have to be OP or gamebreaking and can often be quite fun to do (and were else do you get the experience of playing Assassins Creed: Mech edition) and play. The only problem is that many beginners and some power players abuse them and try to make 6/9 flashbulbs that run at neutral heat. They are boring and predictable, but thankfully we have Infantry and Vehicles to deal with them. And lets be honest here, we all made that mistake early on, one power unit with neutral heat, max armour and great firepower. And it was boring to play. So take heart and try to help those just starting out.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 19 March 2019, 09:27:21
Yeah, most people understand the difference between 'campaign customs' and MunchkinTech. But, historically, enough people have not. There wouldn't be a stigma if a sufficient number of games weren't ruined by min-maxers - this is why so many groups just say 'no thanks' and ditch the potential for headaches.

Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: BloodRose on 19 March 2019, 09:52:50
It is a pity though, as Customs can add a lot to a game, although I agree that they need to be limited (unless they are Omni's, but that's cheating :P ). Limiting them to a maximum of 1/lance and perhaps enforcing the need to justify it fluff-wise (and no, pvt M. S(t)ue did not just find this Mech chassis in this old bay with all these lasers lying around and DHS already installed around its XLxxx engine just waiting to be claimed) and possibly enforcing some penalties for taking one (like a mandatory negative quirk or the need for it to be approved by the vet players, etc) should help keep it in check, along with an understanding (spoken) that you do have to adhere to the base chassis somewhat. And if all else fails use BV to balance out against it, and bring things that exploit its weaknesses. Flashbulbs and Gausszillas are scary until lured into dense terrain filled with infantry, and whilst Timmy might add in a Flamethrower or MG or two to deal with them next game and insist on a less-dense map lets see how he handles swarms of APC carried Infantry supported by LRM carriers hidden out of sight, whilst Pattons and Demolishers roll forwards threateningly.
Big designs are cool and all right up until the point you work out the BV and realise just what you could be getting for that.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Col Toda on 20 March 2019, 12:04:42
Custom varients will tend to out perform stock if the alterations achieve either addresses it"s greatest design flaw or exchanging componants so the combat units work better as a cohesive whole . If you are really lucky both . Change just for change sake may not get you a more effective unit . ERA theatre and likely opposition force plays in the consideration of design differences . You are shooting for optimazation for the designed encounter . Stock mechs tend not to be optimized for much of anything but will suck less than an optimized unit completely outside the combat conditions it is built for . If you are the defender you always can arrange the right conditions 95 percent of the time  . If you are on the offensive about 10 to 30+ percent of the time you get the " No plan survives contact with the enemy " comes in play .
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Charistoph on 20 March 2019, 18:54:48
Yeah, "optimized" depends greatly on the situation.  The Hellstar is a nasty 'mech killer, but would suffer greatly in an urban environment against an Infantry Battalion.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Apocal on 20 March 2019, 23:31:02
If you are the defender you always can arrange the right conditions 95 percent of the time.

Hard to imagine it is anything like 95 percent when the attacker gets to choose the time and place of their attack -- or whether to attack at all.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Col Toda on 26 March 2019, 09:21:42
The defender given ( Time ), can prepare the ground around every likely target well ahead of time . It is that preperation in tandom with your custmized units make it hell for the attacker 95 percent of the time . That is the standard 5 hexes of pre plotted artillery : All hills around perimeter mined with command detonation mines : level 1 roads with tunnels going through the hills that only vehicles can go through easy . In open fields pre prepared hull down postions so a hovertank can move 7 hexes and go in and out of a hull down postion going flank speed.  + 3 for movement + 2 For hull down .  For city streets do the same just have bridge layers drop a 45 CF donut and secure it onto the ground .  It is a Repurposing of a bridgelayer tech . Have hardend battle armor bunkers on the near side of the hill . Have city planning with traffic circles with hull down postions in it .  I goes on from there . Everthing built starting the 3rd Succession War should given time and theater look like that . Urban planning putting much of everything that it would be desirable to get raided on a pennisula . Urban area at the tip and farmland further out . Rigging a farms Silo to blow Fuel Air Bomb style when some enemy units go by . So yes a defender given time and civil engineering do ok on defense . Their is a half a dozen ways to dicourage a combat drop . Custom units like bridge layers : trailers with Hidden 13iOS SRM 6  trailers and 5 LRM 15 TRAILERS with 40 shots come into play . In a Balanced BV ecounter hidden trailers have almost No inherent Defensive Battle Value so the attacker maybe gets hosed . Round the corner 13 SRM 6 goes off sure you get to shoot back simultaneously at an empty now harmless immobile target . ( Nice Trade ) . Militia is defense on a budget towed trailers with alot of ordinace is less than 2 million each . Customization makes it all possible .
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Weirdo on 26 March 2019, 10:41:06
I'd love to see your source that describes any power in Battletech's entire history EVER doing what you describe, which can be summed up as turning an otherwise perfectly good continent into a single giant suicide bomb.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 26 March 2019, 10:44:26
I'd love to see your source that describes any power in Battletech's entire history EVER doing what you describe, which can be summed up as turning an otherwise perfectly good continent into a single giant suicide bomb.

was there any prophylactic nuking of worlds during the first or second succession wars?
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Daryk on 26 March 2019, 10:55:40
Towed trailers for "less than 2 million"?  For that, I could have an MG Goblin and a full platoon that are good for more than one shot, among other things... (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=50881.0)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Colt Ward on 26 March 2019, 11:02:55
You can build all the invincible strong points you want, I can still march through Belguim.

The Initiative is ALWAYS with the attacker, getting to decide when and where they get to hit.  The Defender SHOULD know where to defend and can maximize their defensive capabilities while keeping the cost low . . . but very very rarely can you force a attacker to be where you want them.  Its why terrain is so important in any battleplan and BTU's dropships make air-mobile operations so viable.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Cannonshop on 26 March 2019, 22:25:29
     Hi, I am fairly new to the game and since starting to play at the local store we have been using a lot of customs.  We stick to tournament legal tech and just run BV based games.  A few issues have arisen such as pulse boats with targeting computers and I'll need to say something if one of the newest players brings his list of mechs that only have pulse weapons and targeting computers.  This is one of the problems with customs obviously.  (I only have one or two pulse weapons in a force at most for example, so I can recognize and dont want to be part of the problem)

My question to everyone is how do they play?  Customs or stocks? 

     As I mentioned we use a lot of a customs and I nearly always have break even heat dissipation, sacrificing an extra gun or two for max armor and maneuverability.  because after having played all the computer games thats mostly what I did with my mechs there.

     I am still only a few months into playing the game but I am looking at stock designs from solaris skunk werks and some of them look horrendous.  One example is a Battlemaster variant that has its left arm's MG ammo in its right torso next to the right arm's PPC.  If the mech survives the hit to the ammo the PPC is gone and the left arm is useless.  It seems logical to CASE the left torso and keep the ammo there.  Then you lose the SRM which may or may not do its full damage rather than losing a longer range and consistent damage weapon like the PPC.

     Another thing I see is that some mechs like Atlas variants dont even have enough heat sinks to fire off even just two of their main weapons before going over their heat sinks.  One variant I saw, if alpha striking went up to 28 heat over their heat sinks (may have been another mech).  I get that heat issues make the game a bit more tactical, but with a +1 and +2 mod right there in the starting overheat I fear that I wouldnt hit anything the entire game with my typical rolls.

     Finally, one other thing I noticed is how many empty critical slots are open.  The empty slot in the head is often left open on stocks and same with the center torso.  On my customs I always put either a small energy weapon, heat sinks, or jump jets in the center torso/head (not jump jets in the head of course haha).  I tend to lose a mech once a game to a head shot, often in the 60-85 ton range so I try as hard as I can to give a little buffer.

     These are just things I am seeing that don't make sense to me and maybe its because I still fairly new they dont make sense; so if you guys could offer me any insight into how you run your own games, how you handle stock variants, or any other tips that might be useful, I'd appreciate it.

it's alll in your audience or gaming group.  when I was playing regularly we often ran a lot of customs on one side or the other, or both, but balanced them off by restricting them to the lower tech base.  (You couldn't run, say, an all-custom clanner design unless everyone was running all custom clanner, if you ran Inner Sphere no Clan equipment on your customs unless the clanner players were allowed to run all custom configs.)

basically, restrictions should fit with your gaming group's dynamic, whether that's campaign play or just one-off matches, or even scenario runs.


why? because every group's different.  One of the main reasons to have a good catalog of stock designs is that an all-stock game is good for demonstration games at cons and gamestores, and for tourney runs, anywhere where you have strangers mixing with beginners.  more developed gaming groups, roleplayers and groups with running campaigns will by default need to allow customization, and depending on the group, that can be tightly restricted, or it can be as loose as 'run what you will'.

for regular groups running disconnected scenarios, a preset BV limit (minus FSM) can be very useful.  I remember a game where one guy sank everything into one optimized clanner into an iceboxed clanner assault 'mech in an all-energy config, and another player whose force for the same BV wound up fielding a mob of conventional 'trash' units...and in terms of raw bv, it was an even fight, on the table, it was Przno River all over again and the mob player wound up losing the first match, then coming back in the second match with only slightly better rolls to curb stomp the optimized ultra-elite Clanner on a different map. (They both lost to the guy with a flexible and balanced force that included a more generalized layout-of purely stock units.)

what customs you allow are really determined by what rules and rulesets you choose to allow.  (this has a massive impact on what works, what is 'optimal' and where.)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Col Toda on 29 March 2019, 07:39:03
At what point do you declare it is truly custom ? For you does a unit have to have a C3 Slave out of the factory to not be custom .  Does swapping a medium laser for a C3 Slave count for you ? As stated before sometimes customization is done to apply a tactical doctrine such as a C3 network . So where is your line ?  For you does it have to have a c3 slave out of the factory or it counts ?  Does reducing a full ton of machine gun ammo to a half ton plus CASE when it becomes available again too much of an alteration to be considered a custom job ?  For me a Unit varient is any alteration or change that can be done in a mech bay . A unit model is something that requires a factory like facility .  All combat vehicles come in either scratch kit build in a garage or limited edituon model out of a factory . Most of the aforementioned OMG custom jobs have there day in the sun then get replaced or maginalized when the oppostiion compensate for the hardware or tactics used .  For instance TC and pulse lasers combo is delt with any number of ways . Puttng fuel cell engines and Heavy Fibrous armor a lance of Saladin hovertanks have better armor some exchange the AC 20. With an Ultra AC 20 and the other half LB 20 Xs.  The first puts 20 pt holes in TC pulse laser unit the other puts crit seeking cluster in . the lance cost about as much a heavy mech w an XL fusion engine . Or go up against a different militia or house units 3 Wights that exchange 1 med laser for a slave and the other with TAG. . Master unit a Shiltron Prime 1 Wight goes to range 5 or 6 depending on enemy ECM between 3 heavy ppcs and 2 Homing Arrow IV . In either case the loss of the 10 + Million C bill  pulse laser monster is exchanged with the loss of 2-6 million C bills of hardware if that . And then they abandon that tactical monster for another until the Opposition Force Adapts . Yes I see the pulse laser Targeting computer monster very briefly in every game cheap quantity and very high throw weight weapons tend to solve expensive  flash pan toys . Given years of play I have gone to the combined arms route 16 mechs 8 combat vehicles on offense 8 mechs and 16 combat vehicles gaurding the LZ of a single modified Overlord replacing 1 company of mechs with a lot of light vehicle bays +  .  Customization is important because as soon as you move to a quantity doctrine you icrease speed of play by having heat neutral mechs . You can move and carefully operate a company of combat vehicles in the time it takes for someone to us3 a lance of TSM equipped mechs trying to stay in the magic 9 heat sweet spot . The counter to customization is customization or just numbers with a solid tactical doctrine . Most players do not need a buch of fast combat vehicles with laser reflective armor to drive home that it is not always the best tool to get the job done.  Normally players catch on reasonbly fast and work up a force that works better on a wider range of targets . During the Jihad and after combined arms becomes the new normal : having any targeting computer laser boat negatively impacts both long / out of range exchanges but hidden unit battle armor or infantry exchanges as well .
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 29 March 2019, 09:28:03
i mean it's not that complicated. stock is the canon sheet. any deviations are customizations. it's the easiest, most universally agreeable definition.

arguing that people should be more accepting of minor changes is a separate conversation
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Weirdo on 29 March 2019, 10:52:39
If it's not a published sheet(or a homemade one that matches it exactly for every single  mechanic), then it's a custom. You swap out even a single piece of equipment, shift even one crit or armor dot around, then it's a custom. It's that simple.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Col Toda on 29 March 2019, 11:03:31
Most of the games I have seen dicounts using a field kit to swap out a medium laser for C3 slave almost every game that I ever played that encourages stock only makes that exception or it would never be used . The master unit normally has to be stock.  Still some tech would nearly Never get used if it was no customization . I cannot think of single canon unit thar is equipped with a C3 Remote launcher . And less than a handful of iNARC . The Naganata is a Canon 3058 TRO mech but it was first field on Solaris VII years earlier . Their is absolutely no difference between the 2 except one is a ti be field tested prototype and the other a production model . Is it considered a custom job until 3058 when it becomes a production model ? All the published Solaris VII mechs are Both Canon And Custom jobs : some like the Great Turtle are crafted Unique mech  .   Alot of players enjoy tweeking designs to better operate in an ERA or Theater . Trends like an over abundance of canon units field ECM suites even to their detriment at 3062 . Between 3062 and 3075 so many units carry it that it just about pointless to carry the Artemis IV FCS . Before say 3058 and after 3085 ECM becomes gradually less common.  Most custom units are not fielded for much longer than 5 - 10 years or less depending on when it is fielded ; because the tech paradigm changes just enough that it is no longer a good thing to field. Neither the benifits or detriments last prolonged contact . With the exception of the Naganata MOST SOLARIS VII say they are unique or custom job in  their descriprion along with the Canon printed sheets and TRO .
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Weirdo on 29 March 2019, 11:20:49
You're putting too much thought into it. Published sheets are canon, all others are custom. It's that simple. If your group wants to allow light customization, then do whatever you think is fun. That doesn't change the fact that lightly customized units are still customs.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: RifleMech on 29 March 2019, 18:58:07
If it's not a published sheet(or a homemade one that matches it exactly for every single  mechanic), then it's a custom. You swap out even a single piece of equipment, shift even one crit or armor dot around, then it's a custom. It's that simple.

How do you make a handmade record sheet that matches a published sheet exactly without having a published sheet? Why make a homemade sheet if you have a published one? Why allow a handmade sheet at all?

I'm sorry but it's that kind of attitude that drives people away.  :( Blank Record Sheets are Canon. They existed before published sheets. They still exist not solely for customs but so players can play the game. Published sheets exist to speed the gaming process up. They shouldn't be used to exclude players.


It's a custom if the it doesn't match the stats page. However, not carrying full ammo loads doesn't make it a custom. Changing how much ammo can be carried does. So does shifting structural items around. Those items should be considered fixed. They shouldn't be moving about between variants. At least not those directly from a factory. Even then that's iffy. Fixed items on OMNIs also shouldn't shift about between configurations. If they do then its a custom.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Weirdo on 29 March 2019, 19:41:17
Excluding players is NOT cool. A group that prefers to play without customs can be expected to accommodate a player who wants to play but does not own record sheet pdfs, either by allowing the kind of minor customs that result when you make a hand-written sheet from TRO data but have no idea where the heat sinks go, or offer to print out sheets for that player.

It's not hard at all for a group to play canon only, even if only one player has the official sheets. Megamek makes it even easier.

Who at all mentioned short ammo loads as being customs? I certainly didn't.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Colt Ward on 29 March 2019, 20:05:18
Who at all mentioned short ammo loads as being customs? I certainly didn't.

In fact, its in quite a few canon scenarios along with pre-damaged mechs.  And I want to say we have rules in TacOps or CampOps so that people can randomly get that condition in scenarios they create.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Sartris on 29 March 2019, 20:24:50
Who at all mentioned short ammo loads as being customs? I certainly didn't.

i'm guessing this is about as rampant an issue as people being turned away for using hand-filled sheets.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: RifleMech on 29 March 2019, 20:55:19
Excluding players is NOT cool. A group that prefers to play without customs can be expected to accommodate a player who wants to play but does not own record sheet pdfs, either by allowing the kind of minor customs that result when you make a hand-written sheet from TRO data but have no idea where the heat sinks go, or offer to print out sheets for that player.

It's not hard at all for a group to play canon only, even if only one player has the official sheets. Megamek makes it even easier.

Who at all mentioned short ammo loads as being customs? I certainly didn't.

I agree. It's not cool. Ignoring minor differences for hand made using TROs and them having to match a production sheet exactly are different things. Not everyone has production sheets or megamek, or a printer or a copier. If those who do are willing to share that's great. If they're not capable for whatever reason being tolerant is also great. Saying "No you can't use hand made" isn't cool.


And no you didn't. There was a question above about reducing machine gun ammo. That's what I was referring to there. Sorry about the confusion. 

Using only a half a ton instead of a full ton is fine. That also covers scenarios tracking ammo and damage usage. Those don't make a unit a custom. Swapping out a half a ton of ammo for something else does.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Weirdo on 29 March 2019, 21:07:06
Using only a half a ton instead of a full ton is fine. That also covers scenarios tracking ammo and damage usage. Those don't make a unit a custom. Swapping out a half a ton of ammo for something else does.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Mohammed As`Zaman Bey on 16 April 2019, 15:52:06
In fact, its in quite a few canon scenarios along with pre-damaged mechs.  And I want to say we have rules in TacOps or CampOps so that people can randomly get that condition in scenarios they create.

  Back in the "Mad Max" era of BT, there were canon units with damaged 'mechs, because at the time, they just could not be repaired. Source: Cranston Snord's Irregulars (FASA 1614)

  As for shorting ammo bins, I often dump MG ammo prior to some scenarios, where I won't ever use the weapons and don't want to be a walking bomb. That isn't a customization, IMO.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: grimlock1 on 17 April 2019, 08:49:57
  Back in the "Mad Max" era of BT, there were canon units with damaged 'mechs, because at the time, they just could not be repaired. Source: Cranston Snord's Irregulars (FASA 1614)

  As for shorting ammo bins, I often dump MG ammo prior to some scenarios, where I won't ever use the weapons and don't want to be a walking bomb. That isn't a customization, IMO.
The current Start Books also have mechs with permanent damage or glitches.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: RifleMech on 18 April 2019, 08:12:23
Tales of the Black Widow has the only scenario that I can remember that permitted the use of "Customs" in a scenario. The defender could put 20 Double Strength Heat Sinks on their mechs.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Col Toda on 18 April 2019, 10:02:24
Made very few mechs from scratch . Mostly custom varients for ease of getting parts . Have made for Solaris VII complete custom jobs . What you get by taking a successful mech and playing with a few tons to make it better reduces the playtesting time to determine if the whole idea works or not . By making a custom variant on a successful mech you can quickly compare if it is a better design or not . Brand new mechs playtesting eats much more time but may be very much worth it . I normally do not have that kind of time .
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: bluedragon7 on 18 April 2019, 15:18:20
I actually like the engineering challenge* of custom Mechs but apart from a few test drive matches, most of the time we played stock tabletop. In RPG customs were quite common, sometimes out of necessity, but mostly this was custom variants not complete new builds.

*e. g. say you get a stockpile of Vlar 300 XL, which battlefield roles can you cover, try to make as many different Mechs that cover as many different roles as possible.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Daryk on 18 April 2019, 17:03:16
So... when are you posting that challenge to the design forums?  ;D
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: dgorsman on 18 April 2019, 17:07:39
So... when are you posting that challenge to the design forums?  ;D

Aha!  Iron Chef: Mech builder version.  Given a box of mystery ingredients (components), create a meal (Mechs) to be judged by the panel.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Apocal on 19 April 2019, 00:53:02
Using only a half a ton instead of a full ton is fine. That also covers scenarios tracking ammo and damage usage. Those don't make a unit a custom. Swapping out a half a ton of ammo for something else does.

What about swapping 1 ton of ammo for 1 ton of different ammo?

edit: To be clear, ammo for a different weapon, not just swapping regular SRMs for Infernos.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: bluedragon7 on 19 April 2019, 04:24:22
As that would, ingame, require rerouting of ammo feed, I would consider that a custom, one of the mildest forms.
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Alsadius on 19 April 2019, 06:33:23
Weirdly, by the official rules (see SO page 188), it's a class-C refit, which is middling difficulty - it's as complex as changing armour types, for example. Class A-B refits are replacing weapons(including their ammo) with other weapons that don't take up any more slots, but since the weapon gaining ammo will take up more slots, it's a class C. (This may be a good opportunity to think about house rules, mind you.)
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: grimlock1 on 19 April 2019, 07:55:23
Weirdly, by the official rules (see SO page 188), it's a class-C refit, which is middling difficulty - it's as complex as changing armour types, for example. Class A-B refits are replacing weapons(including their ammo) with other weapons that don't take up any more slots, but since the weapon gaining ammo will take up more slots, it's a class C. (This may be a good opportunity to think about house rules, mind you.)
While maybe not a full "house rule," it warrants a discussion at the table. Take an Archer -5S with LRM-15's in the side torsos, Streak 2's in the arms and both side torsos have ammo for both systems.   There are ammo feeds to get SRMs from the right torso to the right arm. I would accept the argument that swapping a ton of LRM ammo for an additional ton of Streak 2 ammo is little more than a Class A or B refit.  If you wanted to put an extra ton of ammo in a leg, that would mean running all new ammo feeds and trigger a class C.

Why you would want a 3rd ton of Streak 2 ammo... :screw_loose:  That would trigger an automatic 2 point reduction in your PC's INT score. :screw_loose:
Title: Re: Customs vs Stock Variants
Post by: Alsadius on 19 April 2019, 09:45:14
Yeah, that's basically what I'd do in practice. Not all house rules need to be the size of a Fan Designs & Rules thread.