Author Topic: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!  (Read 152736 times)

beachhead1985

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1410 on: 03 August 2020, 22:08:42 »
Each of yesteryear.   Functional turrets, from Russian Battleship Frunze (Poltava) until 1919 when the ship purn in fire, the turrets were made into shore batterys in Sevastopol until 1997.  This picture features Coast Defense Battery 30, or Maksim Gor'kii I.



This link is to demonstration of the gun being loaded.  It looks turrets are still functional enough as museum / functional display showing how the gun turret loads and turns.

So freaking cool they were kept in service so long!
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1411 on: 04 August 2020, 05:16:14 »
I am quite ignorant to ships, not being intereste din them since the battle of Jutland and the introduction of the airctaft ruining the wargame beauty of them, so correct me if I am wrong:

The great advantage of small ships here is that they are basically MUCH cheaper to build (a big one costs like 10x the cost of a small one, let alone an aircraft carrier) and *especially* to operate. Lower fuel, lower personnel.

In 99% of cases the big maritime power of the world (USN)is using flotillas for the big stuff. The thing is, the big stuff is strategic, not really operational 99% of the time. The flotillas do not really engage other flotillas because there are none around, or they are scarce. So, they end up being the mobile bases to provide support to your ground pounders around the world.

For shore activity a small ship or 2 acring alone is more than enough if the enemy does not have cruise missiles or potent aircraft (remember, I am pre-WW2 mentality here). So to show the flag and bombard a pair of residential districts to make the target comply a small ship is enough. so is it to detain pirates operating in skiffs and coastal boats that assault the supertankers going around. I know that Spain sent a frigate to do that in Somalia (pirates were kidnapping Spanish fishermen ships) around 2015 and it was plenty successful.

In general having a lot of big ships is OK, but it might be overkill, dunno. 300 military ships in a navy certainly sound like a lot to my untrained eyes!

I am probably ranting now, so I will stop.

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1412 on: 04 August 2020, 06:44:41 »
I'll avoid commenting on the rest of that post since i can't find a way to do it without violating Rule 4 in about every sentence.

I know that Spain sent a frigate to do that in Somalia (pirates were kidnapping Spanish fishermen ships) around 2015 and it was plenty successful.
Uh... anti-piracy and counter-terrorism operations in that area have been going on since 2003 and involve three flotillas with up to 25 ships deployed concurrently off the Horn of Africa, with in excess of 400 individual ships deployed to these missions over time. Most of which have been European frigates.

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1413 on: 04 August 2020, 06:52:55 »
Ever served on one? I can tell you off the bat that's factually incorrect.
I have.  I agree with you.   The ships had didn't get all the respect they deserved.  Then the US Navy didn't want upgrade or replace the Mk13 launchers when they became obsolete and unsupported (in their eyes) while other countries kept using them with little issue.

Here the USS Vandergriff with it's 25mm forward pop gun in place of the Mk13 launcher.   

Where with Turkey and Royal Australian Navy, they put self-defense version of the VLS on the ships as well kept their original launchers going for a bit longer.


While Taiwan modded class of Perrys further naming them the Cheng Kung-class frigate. Those Taiwan modded theirs with home brew anti-ship launchers, upgraded the side guns on the ship.  Taiwan had always had modified old ships they had in their service and enhancing them far beyond their original specs.


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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1414 on: 04 August 2020, 07:22:38 »

F125 class frigate F224 Sachsen-Anhalt during her sea trials accompanied by already commissioned sister ship F223 Nordrhein-Westfalen:




Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1415 on: 04 August 2020, 08:38:37 »
I have.  I agree with you.   The ships had didn't get all the respect they deserved.  Then the US Navy didn't want upgrade or replace the Mk13 launchers when they became obsolete and unsupported (in their eyes) while other countries kept using them with little issue.

Here the USS Vandergriff with it's 25mm forward pop gun in place of the Mk13 launcher.   

Where with Turkey and Royal Australian Navy, they put self-defense version of the VLS on the ships as well kept their original launchers going for a bit longer.


While Taiwan modded class of Perrys further naming them the Cheng Kung-class frigate. Those Taiwan modded theirs with home brew anti-ship launchers, upgraded the side guns on the ship.  Taiwan had always had modified old ships they had in their service and enhancing them far beyond their original specs.



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Moonsword

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1416 on: 04 August 2020, 10:15:27 »
Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, while we allow a certain amount of historical commentary in this thread, political commentary on contemporary procurement decisions is against Rule 4 and the moderation staff will issue warnings under that rule as necessary.

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1417 on: 04 August 2020, 11:31:30 »
If all Perrys had awesome Super Apaches as their helo complement, they'd probably get more respect.


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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1418 on: 05 August 2020, 04:10:45 »
I am quite ignorant to ships, not being intereste din them since the battle of Jutland and the introduction of the airctaft ruining the wargame beauty of them, so correct me if I am wrong:

The great advantage of small ships here is that they are basically MUCH cheaper to build (a big one costs like 10x the cost of a small one, let alone an aircraft carrier) and *especially* to operate. Lower fuel, lower personnel.

In 99% of cases the big maritime power of the world (USN)is using flotillas for the big stuff. The thing is, the big stuff is strategic, not really operational 99% of the time. The flotillas do not really engage other flotillas because there are none around, or they are scarce. So, they end up being the mobile bases to provide support to your ground pounders around the world.

For shore activity a small ship or 2 acring alone is more than enough if the enemy does not have cruise missiles or potent aircraft (remember, I am pre-WW2 mentality here). So to show the flag and bombard a pair of residential districts to make the target comply a small ship is enough. so is it to detain pirates operating in skiffs and coastal boats that assault the supertankers going around. I know that Spain sent a frigate to do that in Somalia (pirates were kidnapping Spanish fishermen ships) around 2015 and it was plenty successful.

In general having a lot of big ships is OK, but it might be overkill, dunno. 300 military ships in a navy certainly sound like a lot to my untrained eyes!

I am probably ranting now, so I will stop.

Ok, without straying into Rule 4 territory, the short answer is no, to all of it. *Wall of text warning*

The warfare theories underpinning warships are perhaps the second most complex, behind only infantry. There are between three and ten warfare domains for a warship, depending on what doctrine you're reading, and multiple roles within each of those domains.

The primary advantage of smaller ships is they are generally more easily specialised, with additional advantages in cost of manufacture and maintenance, crew sizes and simplicity of logistic support.

The primary advantage of larger ships is that they are simply better at their role, be they primary or secondary, by virtue of having more space and weight for the equipment necessary requiring less compromise in design, secondary benefits are larger crew sizes and space available generally mean longer endurance while conducting activities, and consequently greater ability to undertake multiple tasks simultaneously.

Generally speaking, navies will want to use the smallest ship practical to achieve their mission objectives, and the size with the greatest efficiency is in the frigate/destroyer range, which is why most navies build exclusively these. Larger ships are more expensive and complex to operate, but can project power much more effectively and generally will be much better at preventing escalation. In order to be considered a world leading navy, you need big ships, and thus need to be willing to spend a lot of time, money and effort on them. These larger ships don't simply sit idle, they are used to project power, and frequently will be used in support of smaller vessels undertaking the tactical tasking, providing that big brother protection and preventing adventurism from the target of the tactical action or third parties. Think about it like an altercation with police hanging around just a short distance away, they keep things civil.

As for using small ships in close to shore, without that back up, that's not a good idea at all. Weapons to at least mission kill small ships are relatively cheap and quite prolific, sending small vessels in to enforce your will without support from larger combattants or aircraft, makes it likely you will lose one or both, not a palatable option.

Elmoth

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1419 on: 05 August 2020, 04:29:43 »
We need a thumbs up button.

Thank you for the explanation :)

I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1420 on: 05 August 2020, 06:37:42 »
If all Perrys had awesome Super Apaches as their helo complement, they'd probably get more respect.



The Apaches might have more firepower than the Perrys .
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1421 on: 05 August 2020, 09:01:03 »
Would it be fair to say, a good part of the job of the the larger ships is just existing?  They strike me as being like the large neon signs in Vegas: they don't need to be continously doing 'something' to get the job done, they just need to be there.
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1422 on: 05 August 2020, 10:09:29 »
Carrier Task Forces and MEUs are strategic 'weapons'- aka force projection- and can be both 'soft' & 'hard' power applications in foreign policy.  Bluntly, their location is usually some sort of political statement while destroyers & frigates get handed that task a lot less often.  Smaller ships also tend to draw police/patrol duties more often like the piracy suppression duties along the Somali coast . . . cruisers & larger are not typically needed since coverage by patrols is the most important part.

More specific examples, which I can discuss, start getting towards Rule #4 and would be better mentioned in PM.
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1423 on: 06 August 2020, 00:12:12 »
Would it be fair to say, a good part of the job of the the larger ships is just existing?  They strike me as being like the large neon signs in Vegas: they don't need to be continously doing 'something' to get the job done, they just need to be there.

There is some truth in that. And like signs in Vegas, they're expensive to maintain. Unlike signs, a world-class navy will try and have multiple ships in a class - even 2 counts - so that one can be doing it's thing while the other is being maintained.

Of course, this can lead to situations where the owning power is unwilling to actually risk those units in combat - they've spent so much on them, the possibility of losing them is intolerable. See also WW1 German High Seas Fleet as the classic example. Which has a little, but not as much as you'd think, to do with the "sunk cost fallacy" (see also WW1 German High Seas Fleet ...)
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Nightlord01

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1424 on: 06 August 2020, 02:44:25 »
Carrier Task Forces and MEUs are strategic 'weapons'- aka force projection- and can be both 'soft' & 'hard' power applications in foreign policy.  Bluntly, their location is usually some sort of political statement while destroyers & frigates get handed that task a lot less often.  Smaller ships also tend to draw police/patrol duties more often like the piracy suppression duties along the Somali coast . . . cruisers & larger are not typically needed since coverage by patrols is the most important part.

More specific examples, which I can discuss, start getting towards Rule #4 and would be better mentioned in PM.

Yep, if you are dispatching that many ships and going through that much logistic effort to send even just a few ships, independent of size, you want it to be saying something. Bear in mind, this in and of itself is not necessarily projecting power, frequently these ships are sent to undertake major international exercises, or to support an allied events like reviews.

I've generally found that large warships are really only used in constabulary roles when it's a big ticket item, lots of home country support. They are changed out as soon as possible for other smaller units that are cheaper and easier to operate.


Sabelkatten

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1425 on: 06 August 2020, 05:14:10 »
There is some truth in that. And like signs in Vegas, they're expensive to maintain. Unlike signs, a world-class navy will try and have multiple ships in a class - even 2 counts - so that one can be doing it's thing while the other is being maintained.

Of course, this can lead to situations where the owning power is unwilling to actually risk those units in combat - they've spent so much on them, the possibility of losing them is intolerable. See also WW1 German High Seas Fleet as the classic example. Which has a little, but not as much as you'd think, to do with the "sunk cost fallacy" (see also WW1 German High Seas Fleet ...)
I'd say the important question is if the unit is potentially useful.

And second - in a conflict - if this means the opponent has to spend resources to counter the unit even if it isn't used.

To take a scifi example: I build a battleship to bombard your planet. You build a battleship to stop me - but in case your BB fails you also build planetary defenses. And now that you have a BB I need planetary defenses as well.

But if one of us were to loose his BB, the other would be able to mothball his planetary defenses while still threatening the other. So neither of us can really risk our BB. Thus we both have an absolutely necessary useless ship. ::)

But if it is for some reason impossible for me to bombard you, then me building that BB is stupid from the get go. I should wait until you do, then build something optimized just for stopping your BB.

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1426 on: 06 August 2020, 07:12:06 »
Which has a little, but not as much as you'd think, to do with the "sunk cost fallacy" (see also WW1 German High Seas Fleet ...)

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1427 on: 06 August 2020, 10:12:12 »
There is some truth in that. And like signs in Vegas, they're expensive to maintain. Unlike signs, a world-class navy will try and have multiple ships in a class - even 2 counts - so that one can be doing it's thing while the other is being maintained.

Of course, this can lead to situations where the owning power is unwilling to actually risk those units in combat - they've spent so much on them, the possibility of losing them is intolerable. See also WW1 German High Seas Fleet as the classic example. Which has a little, but not as much as you'd think, to do with the "sunk cost fallacy" (see also WW1 German High Seas Fleet ...)

It is my understanding that the Germans tried at least twice to sally their fleet in such a manner to pull in a portion of the British Grand Fleet so that they could defeat that portion and then draw out another part later.

The problem was that the British didn’t cooperate and sallied virtually the entire Grand Fleet, which the High Seas Fleet would have been unlikely to defeat at one time.

Still, at the Battle of Jutland, they did a number on the British battecruisers, sinking one-third of those Great Britain had commissioned at the time.

And afterwards, the Germans the Germans still tried to do some of this, culminating in a planned final fleet action in October 1918, to inflict as much damage as possible prior to the Armistice, but which never took place because of a mutiny by the sailors on several battleships.

Was the High Seas Fleet still more a “Fleet in Being”? Yes, but the leadership did try several times to inflict severe damage to their British counterparts. They just wouldn’t cooperate.

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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1428 on: 06 August 2020, 15:53:55 »


BNS Bijoy, Bangladeshi Castle-class corvette, deployed with UNIFIL MTF448.

Picture in Beirut Port, the ship survived while docked within 400m of the explosion; the grain silo building shielded her for the most part. 21 crew members injured. While the superstructure looks relatively intact there's a lot of shock damage with virtually anything not welded down thrown across the ship.
The ship is a former British Royal Navy offshore patrol vessel sold to Bangladesh in 2008 and refitted with Russian and Chinese weapons.

The only other MTF448 ship nearby was the flagship, Brazilian Niteroi class frigate Indepencia, which was on patrol at sea at the time. The ship has moved back in (now sitting just outside the port) and has provided assistance to Bijoy and is surveying the port using RHIBs. German K130 corvette Ludwigshafen has been pulled from MTF448 patrol duty and is currently sailing over to Beirut from Cyprus, apparently entered Lebanese territorial waters a few hours ago.

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1429 on: 09 August 2020, 20:40:42 »
Sailing the seas together perhaps for the last time (i think it was), the all of the Iowa Class Battleships under way in 1954.

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Charlie 6

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1430 on: 10 August 2020, 20:06:29 »
Have to follow that picture up with this one.

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1431 on: 10 August 2020, 21:54:33 »
That is the only time all four sisters operated in a single formation. Even at that point, they tended to be off on a mission with other ships in support.  Only one left is New Jersey for me.
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1432 on: 12 August 2020, 20:26:17 »
I didn't know the Germans did this.  Tripitz painted as a town to fool/confuse spies.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1433 on: 12 August 2020, 23:39:15 »
Still not as cool as the damaged American ship (or was it British?) that disguised itself as a tree-covered island to evade Japanese scouts until it could reach safety in Australia.
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1434 on: 13 August 2020, 00:18:58 »
I think it was RNN ship.
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1435 on: 13 August 2020, 01:51:48 »
it was the HNLMS Abraham Crijnssen of the Royal Netherland navy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Abraham_Crijnssen_(1936)

the youtube channel "Simple History" has a video about it. personally i'm hoping Drachinifel does an episode about it eventually.

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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1436 on: 13 August 2020, 14:17:45 »
Nice pic of the Tirpitz. Very different.
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1437 on: 13 August 2020, 18:08:37 »
This picture of the USS Iowa in the shipyard in 1943.  You noticed she has 40mm quad cannons mounted n her turret.  Hope hell those boys get ample warning get off when those guns fire!
Originally posted on Reddit's WarshipPorn channel/thread.
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1438 on: 15 August 2020, 05:39:19 »
I don't know how many of you watch channels like Drachinifel but a recent addition to the line up of such things has been Alex Clarke


Alex has teamed up with Drachinifel (who is also called Alex in real life) and the guy behind the Armoured Carriers website to do a podcast - it's called Bilge Pumps and is hosted through CIMSec


Alex Clarke also has a YouTube channel of his own and in a move he may end up regretting, allowed me to join him in recording some content!


This is the first video I feature in... the first of what looks set to be about 7 or 8!


Don't worry about the "video" bits, it is almost entirely just us talking so you can treat it like a podcast


Oh, Alex also has a friendly Discord


https://youtu.be/Mzmt50Fbm1U
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Re: Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!
« Reply #1439 on: 17 August 2020, 04:05:14 »
So freaking cool they were kept in service so long!

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