W.r.t. state tracking, it seems essential to have a shared dynamic map. It was becoming genuinely difficult to understand the state of the game (in terms of who controlled what star systems) towards the end. Is there a way to do that?
W.r.t. resolution, I believe this could be handled in a distributed manner. For more "realism" the forces should not be evenly matched in each combat as well. Using luck to determine the mixture of forces in play as well as having a defined offset on ability (green/regular/veteran/elite) seems good. Maybe luck could increase/same/decrease ability by one category? That seems like a fairly realistic degree of impact from luck.
W.r.t. era, it seems interesting to simply start at the beginning and run forward tech-wise as this would produce designs at many techs. Anytime a new player wants to join, we could have a civil war. However, this is an inessential decision to me.
W.r.t. rules, it seems important to have every design be BT legal and to be conservative in house rules. Otherwise, people won't be able to follow (and join). This leaves freedom to interpret the designs somewhat differently.So, (1), (3), and maybe (6) or (7)?
- 100:1 standard:capital seems like an essential house rule to have a sane game.
- For nukes, I don't see an essential reason to change the rules. Nukes are expensive and point defense can shut them down.
- Advanced ranges seem good, and aren't even a house rule.
- Fractional thrust doesn't seem essential and it would make designs not BT standard. However, interpreting odd thrust as giving exactly x1.5 overthrust seems fine.
- Decoupled SI makes BT illegal designs. Even though it makes great sense, I'd prefer to avoid.
- W.r.t. point defense, the house rules here (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63746.0) seem somewhat more realistic. However, this is not a must-have.
- I'd personally like to use actual fusion physics, which imply a maximum of 80 thrust points / .001 mass fraction. This has minor effects once you take it into account properly. Pirate points become essential for commercial traffic. Astrogators need to work on refining solutions all week long rather than 1 day/week. Most trips require two jumps. Asteroidal bombardment becomes much more difficult.
i'm still mining the original warship race thread , since there is such a lack of canon warships around . i wouldn't mind joining if my ancient mind could ever figure out how to use the different calculator sheets , and get the results i think should come out at the end .There have been fan-made Technical Readouts with stats for Warship posted by people. Some of them are listed on the Battletech Fandom wiki (https://battletechfanon.fandom.com/wiki/BattleTech_Fanon_Wiki)
There have been fan-made Technical Readouts with stats for Warship posted by people. Some of them are listed on the Battletech Fandom wiki (https://battletechfanon.fandom.com/wiki/BattleTech_Fanon_Wiki)
WRT Nukes:The Type II missile a fighter carries does 1000 standard damage. At a 100:1 ratio, that's 10 capital damage. It also has a 1-in-6 chance of inflicting 100 capital damage directly to SI. There is also a control roll (with a +4 modifier) and +2 to hit modifier for every unit in the same space hex for the remainder of the battle.
My recollection of the rules is even one nuke hit was essentially a mission kill, due to computer disruption on the target, and it takes far fewer nukes to hard-kill a ship than missiles. If missiles are good enough at breaching point defense to matter, when they are not nuclear, then once they are nuclear, they define the whole setting.
How many ships can a Walkurie CV from the old game kill, if all her fighters have nukes hanging off of them? And how expensive are nukes, compared to watching 700 fighters wipe out an entire fleet?1 per fighter if internal bomb bays don't work (i.e. 700 costing 700M).
WRT Decoupled SI: Id like to see 2/3 ships have a place - 'slower with bigger guns and heavier armor' is a real world thing, and a choice.I fully believe that 'slow with big guns & heavy armor' is a real world thing. It's available in battletech except although it starts at 3/5.
WRT Fusion Physics: For me, getting rid of the 'standard jump points' changes the setting and feel pretty radically.Standard jump points would still exist as they are much easier to jump to & from. Pirate points would become pretty essential to commerce however and create natural choke points (...which could be avoided at a cost in reactant or speed). Some of the combat descriptions are consistent with choke points. For example, I can't understand Sarna's description of operation liberation (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_LIBERATION) without it.
I think the truth is either one of us would be happy to put up with the others rules choices, if the other one was willing to run it. :)To an extent, yes. However, it does seem important to minimize house rule overhead to maximize ease of participation.
My struggle here is that 3/5 is just -so good-, inasmuch as 3/5, 150 SI, 15% mission package, ~ 5% remainder in utility, is just such a perfect balance for a tooth heavy main combat unit, and my brain wants to hard reboot every time I say to myself ‘No, we cant put any more armor on or hull reinforcement in unless you hang more fusion torches off the back’. That said, your point about generating designs that can be used legally is well taken. I could be convinced.ASF are so good that you must go with standard 100 = capital 1 or the game certainly devolves into carrier warfare.
3.) Realistic Fusion Drives: Pirate points are usually dangerous to jump to and often transient, right?The L1 point is not transient. That's basically the "standard" pirate point. Note that a stellar system may have multiple such, one per planet. Transient points are much messier, involve 3-body solutions, and are even more difficult to calculate.
That said, cutting the Delta-V of fusion fuel may just mean we take longer to go from the zenith and nadir points. Whats the change in travel time while maintaining consistent fuel mass consumption (IE: Burn same amount of fuel by tonnage, and spend quality time at zero G, rather than living at 1G Brachistone trajectories).I'm not quite following this---you most efficiently spend fuel over a trip if you burn it at the same rate all the way. For Earth/Zenith, that requires ~33% of vessel mass at 1g and ~10% of vessel mass at 1/10th g. The 1/10th g trip takes sqrt(10) ~= 3 times longer.
Again, I could be convinced, as this creates a potentially more interesting environment - but is the advantage in playability and realism worth changing the rules?It's not clear to me. The game breaks under the current rules when you start calculating kinetic energies and realize you can do much more than standard nukes then extrapolate damage. Obviously, we could just limit to attacks that are in the rules.
I think if I end up running this thing, Ill probably go big or go home - a lot of house rules or nearly none (barring 100:1, which I think is unavoidable)"Nearly None" seems like the right default to maximize participation. The minimal change seems to be 100 standard = 1 capital.
Side note on 100:1 - how do we want to handle droppers and subcap weapons? My thought is to treat subcap weapons as capital scale (which means they are sudden death to fighters), and to have dropships take damage from capital weapons as if they were warships, but from standard weapons as if they were standard scale.Subcapital weapons dealing capital damage seems fine. They generally trade range and fire control limits for firepower, a tradeoff that we are all familiar with elsewhere.
Standard scale damage does not affect capital scale armor greater than 10 times the standard scale value.Without this it devolves into pure carrier warfare once good energy weapons come online. Consider an ASF loaded up with clan ER small lasers for example. 1 capital damage/round from an ASF rivals capital weapons on damage/ton and is extraordinarily more flexible.
For standard scale weapon bays use the damage of the largest weapon in the bay.Using the damage of a bay instead would lead to stacking standard weapons to make death rays. Even at at 100:1 ratio, a clan ER SL bay delivers 33 capital/kton, significantly more than capital weapons.
For cluster weapons, use cluster damage (i.e. 5).Not really necessary: A minor clarification.
Where standard scale weapons can damage capital armor, add up all damage to a facing from an attacker and divide by 100, rounding normally.Not really necessary: this is the standard rules when it's 100:1.
Critical hits can only be delivered by individual attacks dealing at least 1 capital damage.This is a clarification. Technically (I think), any hit can cause a critical hit, which would be disastrous.
I also think -some- newtech along the way might be worth doing, just to shake things up. This will spiral into an AU very quickly, and whats an AU without some new toys?I'm skeptical about newtech if a minimal-changes route is in use.
If I take official responsibility for the thing, what are other people willing to take on, which parts? Managing a map and updating it would be huge, as would having someone super good with the rules willing to handle combat resolution (at least for combats not involving them). Other thoughts?I'm happy to help, but it's difficult to promise any particular level of support given other duties.
The Marian Hegemony stands at ready to redeploy at a moments notice.
Hail Cesar! *thump!*
Truetanker 8)
Re AMS, how does the new rule look? Each wave is handled as an entity, not as individual missiles, if not destroyed outright due to damage, it takes the to hit penalty. So AMS may force the entire wave to miss, even if there isn't enough damage to kill every missile.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63819.0
Xotl said:
Capital Missile Bays: For the purposes of PDW fire, treat all missiles fired from a single bay as a single combined missile (i.e. PDW fire damages and inflicts to-hit penalties on the entire group, not against individual missiles). Similarly, the damage value of the missile flight is not reduced unless the entire flight is destroyed by PDW fire.
I'm sure I'm missing something, but is 2 per yard per turn just warships, or also jumpships?
Also, is the technology cost 10m + 10% of the entire states budget or 10m + 10% of the states technology budget?
Is it possible to increase the naval budget from colonizing new planets, conquering other worlds, or changes in government priorities?
Terran Hegemony, Turn Beginning 2350 Value/Cost
Starting Funds: 0
Starting Shipyards: Terra: 2/2/2/2 1,140B
Keid: 2/2/1/1
Thorin: 1/1/1
Terra Firma: 1/1/1
New Earth: 1/1/1
Yorii: 1/1/1
Graham IV 1/1/1
Starting Warships: BB Dreadnought x 6 48.618B
BC Black Lion x 12 84.084B
TT Dart x 13 149.870B
CA Cruiser x 27 201.420B
DD Lola x 24 159.696B
SC Bonaventure x 42 211.512B
PF Vigilant x 33 133.552B
Starting Jumpships: 80 40B
Starting Dropships: 300 (Light) 30B
Starting Small Craft 1,200 12B
Starting Fighters: 3000 15B
Assets: 2,286B
Expenditure Cost (Billions)
Budget: 750B
Maintenance (Standard): 573B
R&D: SRM Launcher 85B
Upgrade Terra Yard 4->5 50B
Upgrade Terra Yard 3->4 20B
Upgrade Terra Yard 2->3 15B
Upgrade Terra Yard 1->2 10B
New Yard Terra, lvl 1 5B
Jumpship Production: 0
Dropship Production: 0
Small Craft: 0
Fighters: 0
Total: 753B
Remainder: -3B (Debit)
Terran Hegemony, Turn Ending 2360
Ending Funds: -3B
Ending Shipyards: Terra: 2/2/2/2/1 1,290B
Keid: 2/2/1/1
Thorin: 1/1/1
Terra Firma: 1/1/1
New Earth: 1/1/1
Yorii: 1/1/1
Graham IV 1/1/1
Ending Warships: BB Dreadnought x 6 48.618B
BC Black Lion x 12 84.084B
TT Dart x 13 149.870B
CA Cruiser x 27 201.420B
DD Lola x 24 159.696B
SC Bonaventure x 42 211.512B
PF Vigilant x 33 133.552B
Ending Jumpships: 80 40B
Ending Dropships: 300 (Light) 30B
Ending Small Craft 1,200 12B
Ending Fighters: 3000 15B
Assets: 2,436B
Trying to remember all the rules we operated under last time...
As I recall, there was a premium paid for new designs, 1.5x? for a new ship design, and then you paid for new hulls at the normal rate? Is that still in effect? Does that make sense for the 1st turn to not have at least some existing designs? These navies aren't coming from a vacuum?
Are we worrying about/designing stations or abstracting them out somehow? I'd prefer jump v. defense, and have them be generic like dropships and fighters, but people really seemed to enjoy designing them previously. If so, do they also have the prototyping/design cost bump?
I see some "as stratops" but I don't have that book(?) memorized, is there a page ref we can get, or a rule quote so I don't have to search or look it up each time I forget what it means?
I saw the question, but no answer yet, can a shipyard be double increased in a turn? ie, going from class 1 to class 3 in one turn? Is it possible to move existing shipyards at all? (that q should have been asked last game, but I failed to do so)
Fleet train- If we have dedicated, or semi-dedicated fleet train ships, will they change how low-cargo ships can be used/behave? For instance, if I have 10 BBs with 1% cargo, and 1 fleet tender with 50% cargo, is that the equivelent of 10 BBs with 6% cargo? What about having jumpships and dropships devoted to fleet tender?
Can we have a definitive list of "missions" the navies will be expected to handle to some extent? If nothing else, so that any doctrine written covers the bases? I'd hate to write a few pages of doctrine, only to forget one specific mission, and have "default" behavior applied. To prevent a situation such as: "Anti-piracy= no mercy." "you kill a bunch of 'legit' privateers and the world frowns on you."
How will intel/espionage be handled? BuINT/NAVINT is a serious and specific line item on navy budgets for a reason. Not just stealing tech, but ship deployments or refits, ship status, locations, corruptable leaders to get an advantage, knowledge of and therefor possible predictability or flaws in leadership, etc.
Should tech research be guaranteed? Pay x, get x? That seems unrealistic to me, though nice and predictable to the gamer in me. In addition, is the reduction enough when others have it? A bill here, a bill there, is essentially meaningless when you're talking percents of budgets. And while "doctrine and retooling" makes sense, when others have found the flaws in the system for you, the cost to adopt a new system is less. 85 bill to adopt, vs. 83, isn't significant. 85 v. say 76 for AC/10s is significant but not overwhelming.
Doctrine- What are you looking for. I, unfortunately, did not serve in the navy and thus do not have a pre-existing set of skills and knowledge to know what essential points to bring up and determine when laying out a fleet's doctrine. Do I need to state a stance on piracy/commerce protection, given that's a navy's primary role in peacetime? Relief service/disaster response? etc? I want to make sure that I cover all needed information, so the GMs know without a doubt what the navy's intentions are, spirit and letter. There were several times where things happened, and I said to myself, "thats not how my navy would have done things." I want to avoid that.
That's what I have right now.
Random question for small craft/fighters: I’m working with MML and StratOps: is it common to have like 1/4 to a 1/3 percentage of a fighters mass be dedicated to armor?
Designing a 30 to fighter max armor seems to be like 10 tons of standard, and a 100 ton fighter it’s like 30 tons. Are canon fighters just that poorly armored? Or am I just not putting enough guns/engines lol
Not sure why, design spreadsheet isn't displaying fighters/small craft/cargo in the pretty print section for me, will fix those and edit this post when I do.
EDIT2: Moved turn post to turn thread. yay! Also, added fighters/small craft/cargo, fixed the fuel situation for the Hornet class that was doing its best impression of a station, poorly. Annnnd fixed the costs on my spreadsheet to reflect the design cost/prototype reduction from Al's previous +100%, to the new +25%. MONEY! TO SPEND!
I like money.
EDIT3: I updated the spreadsheet too, to help y'all GMs with the work load. Let me know if I shouldn't do that in the future. Doctrine was added, humor was attempted, should have everything a growing fleet needs at this point. I believe I pointed out where I saw flaws, treat that as "the admiralty believes those are our flaws" and I can't wait to see what flaws those hide-bound greyhairs missed.
another minor note for the Hornet, don't know if you did this on purpose or not: It is very light on fuel, and ammo for the small guns. 20 rounds per MG is going to last about 3-4 missile volleys. If this is one of those 'Unknown In Character Issues' then carry on, but thought I'd voice a concern.
Working on fluff now and double checking my numbers: should have it sent to you guys in a couple of days.
Are you still accepting players.
I find myself with tons of free time.
And this looks like a ton of fun.
Yes we certainly are! Any particular faction in mind? We can either replace the NPC-generated turn for them, or you can take over next turn, though with turn 1 not due till April 10th there is plenty of time for you.
Damn. I've missed this. Is there still room?
Otherwise I of course wish everyone a lot of fun, and am intrigued to see where this is heading this time.
evening gents , since you've opened up the ip about a century early , are the colonist still primarly taurian ex-pats ? if so are they also an offshoot faction of the farlookers as in canon . i see they have 10 js which if following canon would be about 1/4 of all js that the farlookers either owned outright or had a controling interest in . i could see the tc selling some of the old bull run , independence and marathon vessels to them to get rid of the trouble makers from out of their midst . maybe a few disassembled small shipyards to sweeten the pot as they wave bye bye to their thorns in the minus-x .
marcus , as i've already said , if i can get the calc sheet to work for me i would be more than happy to join as one of the periphery realms . till then i'm going to have to sit on the sidelines and dream .
Of the Major Powers, DC and CC are still unclaimed. Of the Minors, most are - check the spreadsheet, linked off the first post.Well, last time I wanted to Rimworlds, then got the FWL.
Well, last time I wanted to Rimworlds, then got the FWL.
Guess I'll go the other side of the sphere this time and take the DC?
If someone else comes in and strongly demands those, I could of course take the CC, as well.
I'd have to read into everything again.
Do we still have the anemic fuel usage?
Fuel use always irked be because it is ridiculously pointless and possibly based on an early misunderstanding.
I'll take a look.
Will take a bit to get into character. ;D
The DC is occasionally a bit on the intense side, is it not?
Well, nearly all designs I've seen have sufficient cargo space to store more fuel, and may also benefit from an existing logistics train.
Also, one could assume that engines inherently include enough fuel for a few days of operations. I've always assumed that having the jump core sort of bends spacetime to make exhaust exhibit FLT properties to cause the thrust ratings we see. Ah, nevermind.
Guess I just like logistics. ^^
Do we still have things like non-jump-capable ships?
Yeh. Just having a 2% fuel fraction sounds so anaemic to me. ;D Should be more like 10%.
I guess we'll stick with not having dropshuttle bays?
Economically speaking, drop collars are still madness.
I think we could actually create Monitors in the last run. It just didn't happen.
My faction is probably not exactly known for taking care of civilians or being overly conservative when it comes to storage, but luckily we're not completely bound to that. ^-^
We don't have any option to launch debris at our opponents, do we? ;)
I think the main point of dropshuttle bays in the setting is for actual dropships, as combat droppers weren't common then, and they got phased out when drop collars became common. I would assume a ship cannot mount both, but that assumption is not grounded in rules knowledge.
The reason I like them is the cost.
Drop collars are outrageously priced - I just checked a Defender, and replacing its shuttle bays with collars (half the amount of ships, though potentially bigger ones) raises the cost by 2b or so?
Collars make sense for large drop ships.
We've just, in the last game, started and ended in an uncomfortable moment of BT history when large war-navy dropships didn't exist and accounting hadn't been invented yet, and with players having rather limited resources it was just uneconomical to field a large amount of dropships - meanwhile, fighters, which in the historical setting weren't really a thing, reigned supreme due to not having this cost attached (and a lack of modern Flak weaponry, and being able to carry capital missiles half their size).
Also, once reinforced repair bays are researched, you can hold a ship in one of those. Maybe ought to put a limit on those.
I've been writing a whole lot without really participating yet, though, so maybe I should just get on that and then see how my opinion matures.^^
Speaking of which, a question: Once we get to subcapitals, which damage scale will they use?
Re the cost of DropShuttle bays, it's not just the 150M price of the bay itself, as each bay also counts as 2 docking collars for the purposes of calculating KF drive costs. I can't recall the exact price of a collar, only that it's way under a million, so even accounting for the different unit cost multipliers a DropShuttle bay is going to be more expensive than a couple of collars.
Yeh. Just having a 2% fuel fraction sounds so anaemic to me. ;D Should be more like 10%.
1 Thrust Point = 1 Thrust (0.5g) sustained for 2 minutes (1 turn). WarShips/JumpShips allocate fuel by mass-percentage, 0.01% of mass (0.0001 × Mass) being 30 Thrust Points (1 burn-hour) at Efficiency 1, or 3,000 Thrust Points per 1% fuel-fraction.
(Note that transit-time from Earth to its zenith/nadir points is 9.1 days at 1g (i.e. 2 Thrust), or 13,104 points of fuel, requiring a fuel-fraction of 4.4% at Fuel Efficiency 1! Similarly, recharging a jump-drive from a fusion powerplant requires 150 burn-hours (at 0.5g), i.e. 4500 Thrust Points, or a fuel-fraction of 0.15% at Efficiency 1. Some rarer star-systems have habitable planets so far from the system-primary that the transit times are longer than 100 days, requiring fuel-fractions exceeding 20% at Efficiency 1, and so probably can’t be visited or settled until drive-efficiencies improve.)
(Space stations expend 1 Thrust Point per hour of operation.)
For whatever it’s worth, the last iteration of this game prompted me to try starting my own over on SpaceBattles. It never got off the ground for various RL reasons, but I’ve sketched out some alternate rules for tech development, including fuel-efficiency of transit drives.
Note that in my rule-set, there’s no ‘tons/burn-day’ station-keeping/recharge-mode, and that Fuel Efficiency 1 is only for ‘legacy’ ships built pre-2300; anything the players built new after that point would enjoy, at the least, Fuel Efficiency 2 (4,500 Thrust Points per 1% fuel-fraction). I was trying to create an ‘echo’ of the shift between coal-fired powerplants and oil-burning boilers, and the early steam-age’s emphasis on far-flung outposts where your fleets could replenish their fuel-bunkers. (Tech-developments in later turns would’ve seen the possibility of some factions achieving Efficiency 3 or even Efficiency 4!)
Again, FWIW and YMMV.
Well, guess that makes dropships worthless outside of jumpship operations, then.
I'll mostly stick with the existing starting layout for my faction, but I'll phase collars out over time
Is it not possible to grant selective access?
Looks good!
I do have a few questions?
1.) Your raider has no cargo - I see your aware of this, and have chosen it as an imperfection. The GMs smile upon realistic, imperfect ships. :)
2.) I notice Heimdallr lost its vehicle carriage, but maintains the 60! small craft. I had them to carry vehicles to the surface, a la Aliens. 60 small craft seem overkill for carrying down 2000 infantry, but I suppose it can drop 3 regiments in one pass.
3.) Man, thats a biiig Jumper! And it nicely illustrates how much cheaper collars are on jumpships (standard or custom) than on Dropships. Given that you can lift 100 droppers, I suppose you dont need to carry your combat vehicles on the Heimdallr.
4.) I like the new writing! We will get the spreadsheet updated - I see you started before we locked it out - we did that to keep it safe, Id hate a random drive-by to delete it!
Quick question.
SRCS is listed as dawn of space flight level tech.
And in the Tech tree Caspar is listed as something we can learn.
Does buying the ECM tech upgrade make the Shielded SRCS available for use?
And minor followup should the Naval C3 be higher tech then Caspar tech since Caspars gain the bennifits of Naval C3.
Let me get to my books - will edit answer in.
Sorry ive been bleh this past week: typing up the turn as we speak it should be finished by tonight.
Well its up: let me know if I did anything wrong: tried to include a bit of RP indicating doctrine, how badly the last guy messed up (my own RP flare because... why not) and why my designs might be a tad off....
Theirs a lot more in my head but I tried to keep it PG-13. That and I kinda wanted to put some Scandinavian in somewhere but since I've got absolutely no knowledge of any of the languages and I didn't want to waste forever on Google Translate i'm skipping most of it.
EDIT: Sorry yes, I just figured as a smaller navy id work a bit with that for initial start up. I might be designing a couple DS in the future but only a pair of fighters from now on: referencing them as just generic staples for the entire fleet. Again my bad.
Second EDIT: Got it Marcus: editing the post now
Also, please round your costs to the nearest Million.
For aerospace fighters, dropships and small craft are we supposed to use the generic vehicle costs for them and to consider our designs to just be fluff?
Because that's how I designed the Shu-3 for the LC.
Looks like I really need to get a small post ready.
In retrospect, I should have maybe taken the CC. They fight so nicely dirty. ^-^
Sometimes I catch myself thinking "nah, the DC wouldn't do that. Probably." ;D
Yes, SI costs tonnage. Though I still think a 100 is absolutely worth it on anything combat-worthy. But Armour? Why would I ever not put on as much as I can support?
I put a limitation on the SI of NPC ships I designed to 30 + (tonnage/10,000) for personal taste myself, to avoid simply building min/maxed designs right out of the gate.
But that was me as a GM,feel free to ignore that limit yourselves.
At the risk of violating the adage, "Never interrupt your enemy in the process of making a mistake..."
I was perusing many of the ship designs so far submitted and noticed a distinct lacking of escape pods and boats on a number of designs across a number of fleets. Including one design that appears to have zero. And a number of those designs are carrying marines.
My turn has been posted. I think I did all the math and everything right, but I would be happy for it to be double-checked
So you did! Let me get to reading.Thanks for the help. AMS have been switched out for machinguns, and grav decks and escape craft added. The FWLN does not see the point of Small Craft, preferring dropships to move cargo around. The prototype cost is right under maintenance (2 490 000 000 Eagles). The secret shipyard, like the Regulus shipyard and the "interesting" ship that will come out of it next turn are me roleplaying the fratricidal nature of the FWL. The admirals are certain that a Battleship is necessary, but do not have political support to just upgrade a yard at Irian or Atreus. So they have to build a new one.
1.) We dont have AMS yet - its like 7 down a tech tree. Machine Guns fill that role (though less well) in the early going. If it helps, think of the Machine Gun mounted in that role as a lower tech system, like a spaceborn cousin of a moder CIWS.
2.) Can you break out the prototype cost of your ship (25% of build cost) from the production cost? I may have flat missed it, too... Im reading on a phone.
3.) Cost, Mass (I assume 500kt), Escape Craft (if any), Small Craft (if any) and Grav Decks (if any) are not listed for the Marik class DD.
4.) That weapon block is hard to read. Could you do a simplified version, like:
Nose
2 NAC/10
3 NL/45
2 Barracuda
Front Sides:
2 LRM/20
5 AMS
And so on? Itll be a lot easier for me to refer to when doing turns.
5.) Loyalty started with 2 lvl 1 yards. Your upgrade cost math is right to upgrade your 3 lvl 1s (20 for the first one at loyalty, the 10 each for the second Loyalty and Irian), but your starting game state in post only listed one, which confused me.
6.) Like the writing, and that will be a generally useful little DD. Pricey due to all the collars, but you wanted flexible, and that she will be. I suppose the treasonous shipyard will be an excuse to change the in-character admiral if you decide to. Or maybe he will try to overthrow the Marik once he gets the navy going?
Generic Jumpships dont require yard space - your assumed to be buying them from civilian yards.
Custom Jumpers (especially the armed kind) currently do, but can be built twice as fast... 4 per yard per turn.
If you want to edit your turn based on that information, or otherwise would have done something different, feel free!
And the hard part is not sand. The hard part is a mere 10 ton canister of jammers, etc. thats can fill and jam an -entire- battletech space hex persistently for a whole turn.I'm sure people would be willing to pay 50 tons. The ability to create a wall of debris to ablate projectile and missile attacks seems basic to me.
I'm sure people would be willing to pay 50 tons. The ability to create a wall of debris to ablate projectile and missile attacks seems basic to me.
Though I wonder - if jumping has to happen in relatively empty space, could we make jump points dangerous by dropping random debris there? Not that it would be a sound long term decision.
But isn't making bad decisions what this is all about? :D
Damn, the week is progressing. I need to do some extra research into the political landscape.
FWIW, published ships were found to have errors when run through spreadsheets, due to rules changes and errors in being done by hand - so dont feel bad, and if you catch bugs in any of mine, holler.
Something that may be of use: per this thread (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=53636.0) Campaign Ops p23 gives the spare parts, etc requirement for WarShips and other units, including ammo used for practice.
As an example, a Black Lion II needs only a 2.5% cargo fraction to self-support a 6 month deployment, including supporting its ASFs and Small Craft, but not including any DropShips. The ammo requirement for training was a big part of that and the BL2 is notably a NACboat, so energy based designs can be even leaner.
This doesn't include supplies for combat, repairing damage, etc.
As Im warming up to start helping Smegish run Turn 1, I wanted to solicit input -
1.) How much combat do yall wanna see per turn? More fights is more data, and it along with design is what we are here for. OTOH, decades pass IRL without naval engagement, and writing battles is a time cost. More battles=Slower Turns.
2.) How much detail on those combats? Both mechanical detail and personality fluff story detail? Again, cost vs return. Last game saw early fast, quiet turns slow down as Alsadius wrote more and more and more. The writing was great, but turns got slower and slower and he wore himself out (I think)
3.) Butterflies: Weve got a non-standard start already. How AU are people comfortable with? How hard do butterfly wings flap? Are we locked in to the official timeline, where there will be an age of war, and a star league, and its fall? Some wiggle room, but a tendency to return to the major stations of canon on some theory of historical inevitability? A level of chaos theory in outcomes that would make Ian Malcolm proud?
4.) How fast would we like turns? I think 1 per week is an absolute maximum speed, and likely at best a pursued but often unmet ideal. I guess well end up somewhere between weekly and monthly, but Id welcome yalls thoughts on where in that range the needle belongs.
Looking at that thread, it did not account for food.
Food for thought.
As to your earlier questions:
4) I'd aim for about 2 per month, with +/-1 as the situation demands/allows. This gives an expected week in between everytime, as experience tells the processing will happen partially on the weekend for most of us, pandemic not withstanding, and you might get a packed one.
Of course, the answer is always "whatever the GMs are comfortable with", but once a month risks someone forgetting they participated. ;)
3) I think we need to have a little freedom. Sure, I'd go roughly by the timeline, and even limit techs to +/- 50 years of their introduction (isn't it a bit early for fighters yet?), but long term, we might need to deviate a bit. Unless we want to do a timejump after 50 odd turns and then find another 5 players for the clans. The tech progression might also have to be adapted to how the game goes. Ultimately, I'd like to have the freedom of my realm not conquering what it usually would because my designs were just atrocious. Or someone blew up all my yards while I wasn't looking.
2) The obvious answer here is "whatever the GMs are comfortable with". A bit of fluff is nice, though. I'd go with GM discretion as to what is an interesting or relevant battle, and have mildly fluffed skirmishes dominate the boards. A turn should average no more than 2 important battles, which does mean there's room for lulls and room for action. Additionally, the less happens, the more relevant a border skirmish appears. Before you burn yourselves out, you may want to reduce the amount of writing on a turn to get things out.
1) Depends on the environment. Sometimes, there is serious conflict. Sometimes, there isn't. A minor conflict here or there makes a lot of sense, and might not break the bank that manages our account of time and motivation. A large conflict might of course be a campaign lasting several years and 3-4 large battles. If I may recommend, starting an invasion near the end of a decade allows us to split those conflicts into two turns.
... or you could just split the turn in two - a lot happening might mean only a half duration turn.
You do you.
Looks like kindalas answered this one faster, but he also suggested variable turn lengths, so that may be an option. Of course, that would require players to mention priorities. What will be built first in case this decade becomes a bloody one.
Well, you could always halve the production, and use that for available forces. This would easily allow you to cut a turn in twain.
Will stuff researched be available the same turn?
Aka, if we research something, we'll immediately get ships designed with that equipment?
As Im warming up to start helping Smegish run Turn 1, I wanted to solicit input -1.) I agree with others, whatever you feel comfortable with.
1.) How much combat do yall wanna see per turn? More fights is more data, and it along with design is what we are here for. OTOH, decades pass IRL without naval engagement, and writing battles is a time cost. More battles=Slower Turns.
2.) How much detail on those combats? Both mechanical detail and personality fluff story detail? Again, cost vs return. Last game saw early fast, quiet turns slow down as Alsadius wrote more and more and more. The writing was great, but turns got slower and slower and he wore himself out (I think)
3.) Butterflies: Weve got a non-standard start already. How AU are people comfortable with? How hard do butterfly wings flap? Are we locked in to the official timeline, where there will be an age of war, and a star league, and its fall? Some wiggle room, but a tendency to return to the major stations of canon on some theory of historical inevitability? A level of chaos theory in outcomes that would make Ian Malcolm proud?
4.) How fast would we like turns? I think 1 per week is an absolute maximum speed, and likely at best a pursued but often unmet ideal. I guess well end up somewhere between weekly and monthly, but Id welcome yalls thoughts on where in that range the needle belongs.
Doesn't instant research of passive things like armour take away all the calculation of it? The "invest in the future" part?
Ok, that's helpful. Then I'll definitely change the armour of the destroyers Smegish designed to FA, as if I read the post correctly that has been researched.
Still think we should increase the price of armour, though. I thought about creating a troop transport with primitive armour mostly for RP, save cost and all that. Would that be ok?
Though I think with the tech progression the way it is, we will inevitably go "off the rails" at some point into AU territory. Maybe allow people to spend research money for an accuracy bonus or smth? ... I really miss the thinking smiley.
I know I have a ship that is lacking in escape pods. But it lacks a gravdeck and has steerage class quarters for everyone.
But it has a terrible cargo fraction and it is flawed.
I did indeed do Fighter armour, thinking that you can't have 'Improved' Ferro-Aluminium without regular Ferro-Aluminium.But FA did come after IFA. ???
RE: Researching increased accuracy - some weapons have much better ranges, and we ARE using the detailed, advanced aerospace ranges. If you want an accuracy advantage, mount the big energy weapons and the big NGauss, Barracuda also have some good range bands - ECM will be an effective accuracy advantage if you have it and they dont - and of course there is NC3 waiting out there.I seem to remember we did discuss changing N-Gauss, because they aren't worth their mass nor their cost for what you get.
I did indeed do Fighter armour, thinking that you can't have 'Improved' Ferro-Aluminium without regular Ferro-Aluminium. Again a limitation I was imposing on NPC factions so they weren't all taking IFA on the first turn, because its the strongest option.
Jester: Having 2 GMs to share the load will help with burn out and inspiration. We have ideas for action in the first turn or two - What little there probably be anyway, before having to come up with any major fights. DC vs PoR will still be happening early, though the final result may vary
Feel free to do what you want with them though
The warship rules are complicated enough that I can see minor discrepancies creeping into the MML, HMA, or any other spreadsheet (including our own).
I light of this, we have to have a common standard - and the spreadsheet linked on the first page will be that common standard, since its free and fairly user friendly. For now, that sheet is ‘the right answer’ - not because its necessarily perfect, but because of the need for a common standard.
FWIW, published ships were found to have errors when run through spreadsheets, due to rules changes and errors in being done by hand - so dont feel bad, and if you catch bugs in any of mine, holler.
Turn 1 is processed! Please read over and let us know what you do and dont like about how the turn was written up. What works, what doesnt, etc.Beautiful! That seems like quite the bit of writing for a few border conflicts. An entertaining read.
Right, I should probably get the newest dev build again.
Though obviously we have our own tech progression, and we still need the spread sheet to calculate the cost.Beautiful! That seems like quite the bit of writing for a few border conflicts. An entertaining read.
So, I could theoretically buy ships off the CC? Or rather slipway capacity? How would they get here? ???
I feel bad for the PoR, but this is what the coordinator wants. Probably.
So how will tech progression go from here?
We can pick and choose from the first 3. Does that propagate downwards if we get one? If so, that seems a bit too easy.
Also, seems our budget escalates?
It just occurred to me that technology has no real maintenance cost, all the while increasing budgets cause the cost of research to rise over time.
... also that vehicle drop chutes are kind of a pointless investment if I already build a dedicated invasion ship. :facepalm:
I originally read that I could research 1 tech total per turn. The clarity of what you actually get might make this a bit too easy, what with the instant results. I feel like there's really no option but to focus heavy on research early.
Edit: I have consolidated the Draconis Combine Turn for 2350-2360, and added the additional fluff that was still missing.
Is the loss already included in my budget or do I have to account for it?
AKA My budget is listed as $75 billion: should it be 73 (+3 for lass turns) or is 75 correct?
Yeah I was considering it: that and buying some Lyran heavy fighters. Sarna says the Typhoon is being phased out completely so I figured they might have stockpiles they'd probably sell.
As far as Warships from the TH, I'd be more likely to buy a pair of Lola's and a couple Corvette's. I'd have to check my budget and get back to people.
Sounds like the Hegemony needs to research some tech to reduce their maintenance costs...
Fighters are, as noted before, generic - but if you wanna fluff em as those Lyran 90 ton flying monsters (and with Lyran Approval) you could certainly do so.
Ive still got one ‘unused’ slot in the tech tree....Sounds like a good spot for "Modular Ship Fittings" or some such... ^-^
I think, at the current research speed, we need far more techs anyways. Just researching a lot fast is a strong tactic, and I feel like there's a contrast here between what's the right thing to do, and what's the fluffy thing to do.
We could really just intersperse a few technologies that decrease maintenance, improve fleet coordination rolls, or boost the economy. Or false flag operations.
Ah, so the improved ppc was lower weight and size, and the enhanced ppc was an er with extra damage.
Didn't even know there were two. Still, that probably not meant.
It just occurred to me... The lifeblood of this game is the decisions of the players; That and, obviously, the writing of our GMs.
But long term, what will players decide? Assuming we manage to hit 30 turns+, which I guess is a far way off.
Will we just react every after every battle with a new ship design that is meant to counter some devious machination of another player? Develop new doctrines?
I honestly wonder.
If we get 30 or 40 turns in, Im going to dance a dance of ritual joy, and then were gonna write this all up as an AU with a supplement full of stories from the whole timeline, and do a TRO of warships and pay someone to do art, and call it a win. And get TPTB to get this canonized properly.
Manufacturer: O'Neil Yards
Production Year: 2362
Use: Military Spheroid
Type: Battalion Transport
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Cost: TBD
Mass: 4800
Structural Integrity: 40
Length: 84m
Width: 84m
Height: 127m
Drive System: O'Neil 500 Series Fusion
Safe Thrust: 2.5G
Maximum Thrust: 4G
Fuel: 100 Tons
Armament: 54 Large Lasers
Nose: 12 Large Lasers
Front Sides: 10 Large Lasers
Aft Sides: 8 Large Lasers
Aft: 6 Large Lasers
Armor: 2304 Armor Points
Fore: 604
Sides: 600
Aft: 500
Crew: 14 (steerage class quarters)
Heat Sinks: 432 (100%)
Carriage:
36 Light Vehicles
104 Tons, Cargo
Ok, which one of those will be needed for battle armour?
1.) Realzing something major that was overlooked - Im adding three techs to the tech chart to represent 'Clanspec' for things where we dont offically have two different technoloties. Clanspec Engines represent the smaller Clanspec XL engines, and the lighter Clanspec Dropship/Small Craft Drives, and similar things. Clanspec Electronics represents the smaller/lighter Clanspec for Targeting Computers and suchlike. Clanspec Structures is the golden child of these, representing Clanspec Internal Structures, Armors, and Heat Sinks - Armor specifically may be of interest to our players, as the 'Clan' version of Warship armor is better than the IS 'Version'.
'
Of course, in universe, these are unlikely to actually represent actual Clan Things, just instead representing advanced tech.
2.) RE: THN - I started out planning to mirror THN production, but realized that it would quickly stop making sense. Our THN isnt outspending everyone else 20:1 or more (chosen to make this vaugely interesting rather than making all the players feel meaningless), and ship technology is going to evolve fast.You do you! :thumbsup:
Unlimited - Im not ignoring your concerns. Im mulling them over in my head, and watching how things develop over the next few turns.Please don't feel the need to justify yourself; I myself am mostly worrying being seen as a nitpicker. Quite the hypocrite, aren't I? xp
I have no clue which one includes Battle Armor. Given the intro date of the Star League Light Battle Armor, where would you suggest go on the chart?
IF I had time, I'd go for the Taurians in a heart beat...
Quick question Kindalas: the Infantry compartments one those ships, is the listed number the # of platoons, or men total?
Why does he get those techs so cheap anyways?
Anyways, a style question here: I wanted to build a frontline ship and thought about going heavy Gauss instead of NAC-40. Now, I wonder - would it fit DC more to pick medium Gauss?
Why does he get those techs so cheap anyways?
Those techs should be costing 40.3 Billion each (10B + 10% of naval budget). Price reductions for stuff invented turn 1 won't kick in till turn 3.
If it is done in quarters it is by men, if it is in bays it is in platoons of 28.
Megameklab aparently reports the tonnage of the infantry bays and not the number of platoons/men.
FFS so Heimdaller 108 platoons (at 5 tons each for 540) and 2268 marines in quarters.So the Heimdaler 1a has 2200 ish long term marines and a 81 cargo bay platoons.
I changed it because I decided that boarding actions (and health & safety inspections) would be a staple of Lyran doctrine.
So by the same math the Snotra 1a holds 36 platoons?
Also variants of a ship need to be no more than +/-10 SI away from the original. So either that Heimdallr 1a is incorrect, or a new ship and the prototype cost is 25%, not 10%.
Remember to check to make sure your refit is allowed. A variant can ‘vary’ more than a refit can. Its an easy mistake to make, I did it a few times last game.
Ive wondered if I should relax the refit rules, but Id have to raise the cost (radically). Real world refits could approach the cost of a whole new ship, once you start changing powerplant and armament and armor - which is logical, cause your essentially at that point building a new ship into the hull of the old one! So I kept refits limited and pricing simple, rather than doing all the math to work out every part of refitting
Yes, the Heimdallr carries all those troops. She was originally a hybrid warship/combat transport, with 2 regiments of 50 ton vehicles, each vehicle carrying a full 28 man platoon and enough small craft to drop those regiments in two passes. Once a player took over, the vehicle bays were dropped, but she still has more infantry than god on board, and I suppose she will still function as an infantry transport and gods own terrifying boarding ship (though my version wouldnt want to carry all those infantry for LONG, they are in bay quarters rather than long term berths. Idk if this changed or not in his)
Would it be ok if I compiled a list of all potentially relevant techs I can find/remember (that we currently don't have)?
Also, is fleet intelligence factored into the outcome of "conflict"? - might not be actual battle.
With regard to carrying troops, the break even point between bay and quarters is around 90 days. Shorter than that, bays are more efficient. Longer, go with quarters.
Damn, I've been wondering if medium N-Gauss wouldn't fit the DC better than heavy, but they never used the things. And heavies only past 3050.
Their designs are pretty much an eclectic mix of Naval lasers and autocannon sizes, usually up to 35s (which my neighbours already have) and smaller NPPCs - which I haven't developed.
Guess I'll have to tread new ground.
Anyways, techs:
I think we should have a tech for battlesuits in advancement, and another one for advanced suits in strengthening (reflecting both assault/magnetic suits on the ground, and dedicated space suits). Do we have a tech for sub-compact drive cores?
Maybe, as Alsadius back when theorized, we could split bracketing into 2?
As a suggestion based on that, would be interesting if, given sufficient sensor coverage, we could bracket similar weapons on different ships - though that's far into the future.
Hund-class Frigate
Mass: 250,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere
Introduced: 2500
Mass: 250,000
Battle Value: 46,396
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-X-E-F
Cost: 7,059,972,000 C-bills
Fuel: 5,000 tons (12,500)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 4
KF Drive Integrity: 7
Heat Sinks: 1,200
Structural Integrity: 90
Armor
Nose: 39
Fore Sides: 32/32
Aft Sides: 32/32
Aft: 22
Cargo
Bay 1: Fighter (12) 4 Doors
Bay 2: Cargo (9597.0 tons) 1 Door
Ammunition:
120 rounds of Killer Whale ammunition (100 tons),
60 rounds of NAC/30 ammunition (0.8 tons)
Dropship Capacity: 3
Grav Decks: 1 (120 m)
Escape Pods: 6
Life Boats: 4
Crew: 20 officers, 75 enlisted/non-rated, 24 gunners, 24 bay personnel, 48 marines
Notes: Mounts 450 tons of standard aerospace armor.
Weapons: Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat) Heat SRV MRV LRV ERV Class
Nose (470 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/30) 200 60(600) 60(600) 60(600) 0(0) Capital AC
NAC/30 Ammo (60 shots)
2 Naval PPC (Medium) 270 18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180) Capital PPC
FRS/FLS (280 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 45 280 18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180) Capital Laser
RBS/LBS (40 Heat)
2 Capital Missile Launcher (Killer Whale) 40 8(80) 8(80) 8(80) 8(80) Capital Missile
Killer Whale Ammo (60 shots)
ARS/ALS (280 Heat)
4 Naval Laser 45 280 18(180) 18(180) 18(180) 18(180) Capital Laser
Naval Gauss Rifles are said be be relatively save, and fire solid slugs by means of electrically induced magnetism. Their maintenance should probably be relatively low, as would be their peacetime ammunition upkeep. In turn, the rifles are fiendishly expensive.
Conversely, Naval autocannons are dirt cheap for what they bring to the table, but their modus operandi is likely to cause significantly more wear.
I remember having read somewhere that the barrel of an NAC 40 would need to be replaced every average magazine.
Further, docking collars are extremely expensive, but at least, they grant you flexibility.
But with upkeep as it is, they are even more of an economic burden than they were before. If I calculated this correctly, it costs laround 400m a turn in upkeep to have a collar somewhere?
That means that the means to transport a dropship costs more every turn than the actual dropship.
So I suggest having a maintenance multiplier on some pieces of equipment, and to create a maintenance value in the spreadsheet itself, which will then be printed with the rest of the output to save players from having to worry about that.Ah, right. Well, that's still not worth much if I don't intend to hunt down jumpships with fighters.
And on Warships, small weapons are essentially just missile defense.
So... didn't someone offer yard space for rent? How would I go about actually using that?
Edit: A suggestion for maintenance:
I discussed this during the last iteration of the warship race, but it died before we got there.
I believe that, with maintenance costs being as high as they are (I think 40% would be a better base value), we should vary the cost of certain equipment to both fit the fluff and/or make them more useful.
Examples:Code: [Select]Naval Gauss Rifles are said be be relatively save, and fire solid slugs by means of electrically induced magnetism. Their maintenance should probably be relatively low, as would be their peacetime ammunition upkeep. In turn, the rifles are fiendishly expensive.So I suggest having a maintenance multiplier on some pieces of equipment, and to create a maintenance value in the spreadsheet itself, which will then be printed with the rest of the output to save players from having to worry about that.
Conversely, Naval autocannons are dirt cheap for what they bring to the table, but their modus operandi is likely to cause significantly more wear.
I remember having read somewhere that the barrel of an NAC 40 would need to be replaced every average magazine.
Further, docking collars are extremely expensive, but at least, they grant you flexibility.
But with upkeep as it is, they are even more of an economic burden than they were before. If I calculated this correctly, it costs laround 400m a turn in upkeep to have a collar somewhere?
That means that the means to transport a dropship costs more every turn than the actual dropship.
New Samarkand 1/2Shouldn't that be 2x 20000m + 2x 10000m = 60b?
Luthien 1/1
Midway 1
Repairs
Maintanence 50% 0
Prototype Cost Kutai 4,824 1,201
Fubuki 6,391 1,598
Onsen 460 115
Construction Unit Price
Shipyards Existing Yards All S1 > S2 40,000
Ah, crap, I read that wrong. My bad. ^^
I guess I'd write 1/2/1 as 1/2/2/3 myself. ;D
Ok, got it. Thanks.
Linebreaker DCB-1a
Mass: 750,000 tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Introduced: 2460
Mass: 750,000
Battle Value: 89,632
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-X-E-X
Cost: 8,068,880,000 C-bills
Fuel: 7,500 tons (18,750)
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Sail Integrity: 5
KF Drive Integrity: 16
Heat Sinks: 1,290
Structural Integrity: 150
Armor
Nose: 175
Fore Sides: 175/175
Aft Sides: 150/150
Aft: 165
Cargo
Bay 1: Small Craft (48) 4 Doors
Ammunition:
30 rounds of NAC/40 ammunition (2.4 tons),
180 rounds of NAC/10 ammunition (1.2 tons),
40 rounds of Heavy N-Gauss ammunition (1 tons)
Dropship Capacity: 1
Grav Decks: 2 (109 m, 80 m)
Escape Pods: 5
Life Boats: 45
Crew: 42 officers, 153 enlisted/non-rated, 46 gunners, 240 bay personnel, 5 passengers, 40 marines
Notes: Equipped with
3 Space Mine Dispenser
2,250 tons of standard aerospace armor.
Weapons: Capital Attack Values (Standard)
Arc (Heat) Heat SRV MRV LRV ERV Class
Nose (236 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/10) 60 20(200) 20(200) 20(200) 0(0) Capital AC
NAC/10 Ammo (30 shots)
12 Small Laser 12 4(36) 0(0) 0(0) 0(0) Point Defense
3 Large Laser 24 2(24) 2(24) 0(0) 0(0) Laser
2 Naval Laser 45 140 9(90) 9(90) 9(90) 9(90) Capital Laser
FRS/FLS (225 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/10) 195 60(600) 60(600) 20(200) 0(0) Capital AC
1 Naval Autocannon (NAC/40)
NAC/40 Ammo (15 shots)
NAC/10 Ammo (30 shots)
12 Small Laser 12 4(36) 0(0) 0(0) 0(0) Point Defense
1 Naval Gauss (Heavy) 18 30(300) 30(300) 30(300) 30(300) Capital Gauss
Heavy N-Gauss Ammo (20 shots)
RBS/LBS (236 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/10) 60 20(200) 20(200) 20(200) 0(0) Capital AC
NAC/10 Ammo (30 shots)
12 Small Laser 12 4(36) 0(0) 0(0) 0(0) Point Defense
3 Large Laser 24 2(24) 2(24) 0(0) 0(0) Laser
2 Naval Laser 45 140 9(90) 9(90) 9(90) 9(90) Capital Laser
ARS/ALS (152 Heat)
12 Small Laser 12 4(36) 0(0) 0(0) 0(0) Point Defense
2 Naval Laser 45 140 9(90) 9(90) 9(90) 9(90) Capital Laser
Aft (96 Heat)
2 Naval Autocannon (NAC/10) 60 20(200) 20(200) 20(200) 0(0) Capital AC
NAC/10 Ammo (30 shots)
12 Small Laser 12 4(36) 0(0) 0(0) 0(0) Point Defense
3 Large Laser 24 2(24) 2(24) 0(0) 0(0) Laser
It's not quite done, and maybe a little too optimised atm, but it's pretty close in theme to what I wanted (so ye almighty GMs can plan with that). I like the fluff. Your Jacky Fisher expy has the same voice I gave her last time. :)
Re: Archon - pick a name you like, youve got 9 right now, and none is supreme. Historically, Marsden throws a coup soon, and then his child marries a Steiner, dies, and its suddenly House Steiner and were moving the capital to Tharkad. Of the 9, Kevin Tamar of the Tamar Pact is probably, currently, first among equals, inasmuch as they have such a thing.
I dont know if the CC will have its class 4 yard space open or not, because I dont know yet whats going to happen between T2 and T3.Right. I forgot they'd first have to build the yard before they can rent it out. Well, nevermind then.
Right. I forgot they'd first have to build the yard before they can rent it out. Well, nevermind then.
And I sadly can't rent out production of the new combat ship, as that includes new equipment.
Kind of :(, actually - I wanted to bring the first ship online early and then immediately refit them next turn as new tech became available. ;D
Also, can someone explain the attached picture from the map?
:D ;D Yes, yes I do.
So we can immediately build ships in the yards we upgrade in that same turn?
I think we need to leave core costs alone, at least for extant vessels. Without the ‘extra hull premium’ there is no tradeoff between large and small hulls.. 4x250kt costs as much as 1x1MT, but are far more flexible, arguably more resilient (4x as many criticals to cripple, 4x as much IS to kill). So its all corvettes. As it is, we have hard choices between paying for yards to build the big ships that carry more stuff per C-Bill, as opposed to the swarm (laid out above).
Im not opposed to changing the costs for Primitive Cores, but Im not highly motivated to make Smegish change the google sheet again for something basically noone would use. Will wait for others to weigh in.
The Taurians would be all over cheaper ships with shorter range cores. If they cost the same, though...
Honestly your waiting for me to finish lol...
This: because the PoR is so small they would definitely go for this. But that needs discussions of course.
EDIT: Finished my turn, once again double checked but if anyone finds anything let me know.
Sorry bout the formatting somethings messed up with my Microsoft Office suite so I had to purge it from my computer and buy a new one. Stimulus check mostly gone and I got it last week :(
Maybe that is his plan. :D Force you to leave him alone.
Cheeky. :thumbsup:
Yeah. The standard SRCS isnt apparently real bright. The Advanced version is probably much moreso.
Its hard to get a grip on how ‘smart’ the Caspers really were, because the feel I get is everyone was afraid of them and kept their capabilities on choke chains.
Amusingly, the Casper system RAW is a straight downgrade. Major cost increase and a 10% Mass Fraction (for the smart version) consumes ANY advantage In ECM, gunnery, yadda.
Though if you assume they get C3 effects (so Im told), and slap on the Advanced Tactical System for an additional -1 on Gunnery, yould have a ship that performs at Gunnery 2 plus NC3, as well as being able to burn at max Gs as long as the fuel holds with no crew to suffer. Hmm.
Sides, we do get bracketing, so accuracy bonuses on the weapon would be overdoing it.
A Note on Marines:
Yes. Which eyebrow will you raise? ???
We don't even have a tech for battlesuits yet, so I think they'll be a far bit off. ;D
I do wonder, though: Are there cases where a Navy would scuttle a ship? In space. Jump Drive shot? Insufficient engine to get back to a jump point and enemies closing in?
I wish I knew that when I refitted the Sontra.
I had been working on the idea that Bay Infantry went on small craft for hostile safety inspections.
and that quarters meant defensive marines.
For your ships... since turn isnt baked in, Ill happily let you change it. Should be pretty minor. Lose some cargo, pay a few CBills.
I'll keep it the way it is.
I figure the the Sontra when planning on boarding will have the marines. But if they are just on a patrol mission then they won't be carrying a full compliment.
When I get around to the Sontra mk 3 I'll change it up. But I'm thinking of waiting for FC armor to do that.
the LCN ships are getting a bit too close to perfect for my tastes.
The hangars for fighters are 50% larger than the heaviest possible fighter, I can totally see that include the equivalent of steerage for 1 pilot and 1 tech.
Small craft usually contain berthing for their crew anyways, which may be as large as the total crew assigned to that hangar slot.
So for "single sortie" designs/missions, Hangar space might be adequate.
Personally, I'd reserve sufficient berthing to put at least officers and maybe technicians of a mechanized Infantry platoon in actual berths; I'm sure the pile of equipment you're sleeping on is more comfortable if you can sleep on it alone. What I'd be more worried about for anything longer than a single jump (with transfer to/from planets at at least 0.5 G) is a lack of Grav decks - my infantry grunts better not have atrophied legs when they get there.
Also, the sumup is really fascinating. Nice to see the factions actually are moving in slightly different directions.
Maybe we could create a system to make that data more easily available in the future?
I'd love to see this again every few turns, but I agree it may not be worth the effort.
[i]Talwar[/i] Class Corvette
Mass: 100 000 tons
Movement: 5/8
Heat Sinks: 450
Fuel Points: 0/68660 (6866.0 tons)
Tons Per Burn Day: 19.75
Structural Integrity: 80
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Armor: 176 (Capital Scale)
Armor
Nose
40
Left Front Side
31
Right Front Side
31
Aft
22
Aft Left Side
26
Aft Right Side
26
Weapons
Loc
Heat
Capital PPC Bay
NOS
450
2 Naval PPC (Heavy)
Carrying Capacity Cargo Space (1 door) - 2,500 tons
Crew
Officers
14
Enlisted/Non-rated
51
Gunners
2
Bay Personnel
0
Life Boats 12
Escape Pods 12
0 Grav Decks
Cost: 3 904 million
Just a note, only the captain has first class quarters, everyone else is in standard.
I am finishing my turn, but I am having issues using the Spreadsheet. If someone could tell me if there are any issues for this design, that would be awesome, and I'll be ready to use it for the next turn.Code: [Select][i]Talwar[/i] Class CorvetteJust a note, only the captain has first class quarters, everyone else is in standard.
Mass: 100 000 tons
Movement: 5/8
Heat Sinks: 450
Fuel Points: 0/68660 (6866.0 tons)
Tons Per Burn Day: 19.75
Structural Integrity: 80
Sail Integrity: 3
KF Drive Integrity: 4
Armor: 176 (Capital Scale)
Armor
Nose
40
Left Front Side
31
Right Front Side
31
Aft
22
Aft Left Side
26
Aft Right Side
26
Weapons
Loc
Heat
Capital PPC Bay
NOS
450
2 Naval PPC (Heavy)
Carrying Capacity Cargo Space (1 door) - 2,500 tons
Crew
Officers
14
Enlisted/Non-rated
51
Gunners
2
Bay Personnel
0
Life Boats 12
Escape Pods 12
0 Grav Decks
Cost: 3 904 million
Im just.. really bad at spreadsheet. Glad you like it!Oh, I am good at spreadsheet. And I like to spreadsheet.
May want to double check your figures Venser, 80 Jumpships cost alot more than 25 Billion
EDIT: just noticed a similar foulup last turn also, will adjust it to the 63 actually paid for
What do you need that many jump ships for, anyways?
******, changed the number of jumpships built from 50 to 80, forgot to change the cost, then spent more on dropships and fighters. Sorry about that, I'll just build 50
I've edited my turn and added names of ships.
Edit: Researching Mechs: should i actually design them and post in the other part of fan designs?
Ten pin bowling, using Mass Drivers?That's probably the only good use of mass drivers I've ever come across.
Btw, can we ram enemy ships?
But dropships will just melt under capital fire, unless I got the conversion rules wrong.
Oh, lest I forget: What are techs like FA and Vehicle drop chutes actually doing?
I'm personally under the impression that dropships, fighters, and small craft only serve to ward off missile attacks and help in ground invasions - and no one's really doing missile attacks.
So I think considering ramming as a warship tactic (if a not very promising one normally reserved for emergencies) is the less loony approach.
Oh, lest I forget: What are techs like FA and Vehicle drop chutes actually doing?
Everything is down to personal preferences.
700 fighters weight as much as 42 NAC/20s. Let's pick 36 so there's room for ammo, and I can train 18 of them on the enemy. If only a third of them hit, that's 120 capital damage.
A single fighter also costs as much as the aforementioned NAC/20, so that is a high investment.
Fighters do potentially offer high operational range if equipped with drop tanks, so you get a lot of flexibility - though it also takes a while to deploy them.
Would I consider counters to fight someone building large carriers? Yes, absolutely. I'm even including a fighter wing on every ship I build.
But personally, I think they are a minor supporting element unless used in extremely large numbers. Not unlike a light vehicle with an LB-5 X on the ground, really.
Of course, in universe, no one has ever tried, and really, in reality, no one did, either.
I mean.... I'm not seriously considering it a good idea to build a warship around ramming attacks. But people did that, a century ago. :))
Regarding dropships: Maybe give them a dodge bonus versus capital weapons? They are in between fighters and warships in tonnage, armour, firepower, but not dodge, as far as I can tell.
I was genuinely asking what exactly a drop chute does - after all, I do have invasion ships with dropship transports, and nearly all my army equipment other than what's on that ship will be transported in army dropships, which can just land on the planet usually. I never assumed that was pointless, I've just been wondering how exactly it helps me put boots on the ground as opposed to, say, riding a dropship. Could I theoretically just drop vehicles out a warship instead of carrying them in small craft?
Also, will that tech in combination with mechs allow airdropping mechs?
God I've been doing the calculations for next rounds upgrades and I forgot how much LF Batteries added to the cost of a design. My Frigate goes from 7 Billion to 14 Billion.... like hell i have to basically build four new Frigates except i don't get to use them lol
Even trying to design a 150K ship with a LF drive is nearly 7 Billion
I'm just going to build two ships and have them be in two places.
I don't think manpower is the problem once your spending 10 billions on a ship. xpManpower is ALWAYS a problem. People cost a lot money once you factor in training, medical, retirement, etc. 10B is a drop in the bucket. Also, you may simply not have enough suitable to be crew. Not everyone is able to keep their lunch down in zero-g.
| # of collars | compact | compact /w battery |
| 3 | 8.126 | 15.712 |
| 2 | 7.32 | 13.3 |
| 1 | 6.52 | 10.899 |
| 0 | 5.71 | 8.49 |
Man, I've waited for this.Now I fear even looking at it. xp
A very good write up! :thumbsup:
Gripping, really.
And man, looks like my Navy somehow managed to be outnumbered in nearly every fight. xp
I guess one "advantage" of the DC is that they get to business nearly every decade. 8)
Still aiming at a 2wk turnaround, but we will start processing when we have everyones turn in, if sooner.You're doing gods work. After all, the Game Master is essentially god.
One more question. When we prototype a ship, do we have to build at least one ship of that class that turn or can we pay for our prototype one turn and begin building in later turns?
Kindalas: Map is up.
For the sake of honesty Unlimited: If Rasalhague was still NPC-run, the RWR would not have come to their aid and you probably would have smashed their fleet and been left with cleaning up the leftovers after last turn. The war had to happen, but I would rather not remove players two turns into the game. Doesn't mean knocking players out won't happen, just not this early.
Nah, just look at them. Holy crap they have some boring ships. Sane? Absolutely.
But look at the Battletech universe. Sanity and sound decisions have rarely yielded dividends. :crazy:
Question: Do we still have that thing where missiles can fire one arc outside their mounting facing?
I have to admit I never really used capital missiles in any game. Or warships, for that matter. :)
Actually, do we need to have a set amount of shots for a weapon?
I'm thinking of speciality designs that may need some short term defensive capability, but have no need for endurance, for example because they won't last long there anyways.
The novel I sent over PM about the Lyran naval strategy stuff did it help?
Also the LA is prepared to sell Sontra 1a Frigates to the PoR in support of the LA's proxy war with the DC.
You know as an option.
Question to everyone: How much cargo do you think is needed for a raider/long distance patrol ship/spy ship?
Say, get two jumps in, idle in space for 3 months, get back through different systems?
And how big actually is a jump signature?
True. I was just pondering this earlier and came to the conclusion that there's really no hurry after you've got what you need - gains are flat, so the relative difference is small.
And some of the later techs are a hard sell. Maybe we should make techs even cheaper if they are 4 turns old? ;D
Oh, and brainstorming: What uses would you all find for AR-10s? Actually, if I research Castles Brian, what would they be equipped with, given that all the capital armament hasn't been researched yet?
Seeing how many people research IFA now, I've half a mind to postpone it to next turn and research something else now.
AR-10s don't just fire whatever ammo you have handy? ???
Dammit: over the last two pages you've ruined all my surprise plans for the PoR fleet lol
Course I cant do half of them because of money issues but still....
Could we incorporate design quirks into our designs? For a cost, balanced by others, or just for fluff?
Well, I guess we can always do the latter.
I think it would offer us new options to differentiate and add "character".
On second thought, have to brood over this some more.
Also... our spreadsheet is throwing costs for Sub Compact Cores that seem to be much, much higher than on other spreadsheets Ive used, and I think higher than the megamek design application.
Can someone check the spreadsheet vs whats in the books for cost calculations?
My memory tells me that sub compact cores are 16 times the cost vs a compact cost multiplayer of 3.
And I think it gets obscene with a lithium fusion battery. Like 48 times the cost.
I encourage quirks for fluff's sake, but I would not expect them to have a mechanical effectOh, I am aware. The maintenance is really what I was thinking of when I said I need to ponder this some more.
But yeh, I don't really know how a turn happens, and what influence a design actually has on the outcome. Wouldn't want to make it harder on you.
The maintenance rules as they are, it's cheaper to buy a TH ship, lose it, and buy another one, than to repair it after battle. ^-^
I mean if I keep loosing ships I keep having to buy them: I’m sure you’re okay with that lol.
My turns up. The Cyrus was built in the spreadsheet, so there shouldn't be any problems, although I will never claim my math is infallible. My Admiral is still desperately pushing to avoid major engagements, although the time will soon come where he can unveil his surprise and take on the Lyrans or Capellans.
My turn is posted: double check the math on my ship designs. I did but you know my numbers may be wrong.
Edit: Ill edit which ships are assigned to each squadron momentarily.
I see Adm. Jorgensson is an ancestor in spirit at least to Tyra Miraborg. We will see if fates allow him the same courtesy.
I kinda miss Jacqueline Angler from last game. I may need a new ‘character’ like her.
Not to dissapoint the admiral, and Im away from my spreadsheets, but I believe the PoR is already running an ‘overheat’ budget. Its not going to cripple their long term economic prospects, but their on the ‘guns’ side of ‘guns v butter’.
That said, your beating the historical PoR by head and shoulders!
DCN ensign: " Sir! Their using Head and Shoulders. "
DCN officer: " Better use Pert then. "
DCN ensign: " Aye, aye sir! "
PoR admiral: " They fell for it, use the Brut body wash, and finish it with light aftershave spritz! "
PoR crew: " Right sir! "
TT
DCN ensign: " Sir! Their using Head and Shoulders. "
DCN officer: " Better use Pert then. "
DCN ensign: " Aye, aye sir! "
PoR admiral: " They fell for it, use the Brut body wash, and finish it with light aftershave spritz! "
PoR crew: " Right sir! "
TT
Just spent a few hours reading through the history of the DC leadership. Man, what a shitshow. xp
Well, every house probably had their own breed of incompetence.
Also, it seems that the area between the Combine and TH, at this point, should still be uncolonized.
Lol I spent that time reading the last 25 pages of the previous Warship Redux.
But actual question: how much should colonization cost? Like if I dedicate one Jumpship to it? Half a dozen? A Billion C-Bills to go with it?
Well, you see, the PoR has an immense coffer of unspent wealth, and they just don't know what to do with it. :D
Also, it occured to me: Besides Armoured suits and Battle Armour, we could also add non-primitive mechs to the tech tree.
And as for the actual reason of this post: I've updated my turn, but it is still not done. Just figured I'd do that regularly before I lose it.
I've noticed today that the DC will probably end up being perpetually ruled by the von Rohrs family terror regime, as the revolt against it pretty much came from occupied rasalhague's resistance.
It's a pity I can't just buy ships from the TH. They could be used in false flag operations.Res ipsa loquitor. :)
It's a pity I can't just buy ships from the TH. They could be used in false flag operations.
So, marcus and I have talked about cooking up rules for hiring privateers to harass your neighbours with, and I know Mad Marian has pushed the idea, how many others feel like they'd make use of it, before we spend much effort on it?
A breakdown of which ships can be found on which borders would be nice, but isn't needed.
I mean... I'm not really opposed only because I can't think of an argument against it. It makes sense... but it has to be done properly: by properly I mean you can't just hire a fleet of McKennas.I'd instantly hire one if it was available.
A breakdown of which ships can be found on which borders would be nice, but isn't needed.
Kindalas are you aware of where Alarion is? Closest neighbour is the RimJobs, and they are more than a few jumps from there...
Now if that fleet is serving as your periphery patrol, and counterattacking as needed, that's fair enough.
Man, writing fluff is hard.
Aren't most BT space ships just slightly differently shaped cylinders?
Also, I wonder what the LC needs an invasion fleet for.
Are they planning to gouge themselves on their neighbors?
Ships don’t have to be cylinders BUT they usually have to have some form of massive engine array/ area for Jump Sail to come out of. I could attempt to draw some of my ships... but I’m not the best artist thought I have drawn ships before (some turn out okay IMO)
I've always imagined my Assault Cruiser as looking somewhat like a beefed up leopard (albeit 450x the size) bulged out a little at the center axis, with grav decks around a slimmed "waist".
Thinking about it more, that might be a bit inefficient.
And I thought of the Kutais and Fibukis more or less as blown out cans. :beer: But it's probably unto smegish to tell me how they actually look like. ^^
I've coincidentally been looking at a lot of videos and descriptions of ships from the late 19th to mid 20th century recently, and I wondered: Will stations, for us, take the place of coastal defense ships?
Also, Ammo apparently doesn't factor into ship cost? ???
Well, the thing with droppers is that they are no match for a warship, being unable to mount weapons that can actually harm them.
I suppose once Castle Brians become available, we can use those as "shore batteries". We're not able to just install gun turrets on asteroids, are we?
I just wonder why ammo cost is being calculated in the ship cost and then not added to the total. You're right in that it doesn't really matter, though.
OTOH, Coast Guard Cutters do not fare well against DDGs, nor did their predecessors against BBs.Ah, I meant coastal defense ships, as described f.Ex. here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_defence_ship).
Ah, I meant coastal defense ships, as described f.Ex. here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coastal_defence_ship).
Though I can see that those can not effective be build with existing rules.
Didn't the WoB make use of hidden bases on Asteroids? As did, I believe, the TC against the SLDF. Not sure what rules would be used to actually build one, though.
I'm thinking about writing an IC invasion doctrine for the LC, would that be helpful for turn procesing?
The inhabited systems even during the hayday of the star league will not even amount to 1% of the existing systems.
Regarding defense, I think stations have the advantage of cost. Sure, they don't move, and are more fragile, but any important system (yards, or political relevance) can be easily covered by 5 of them to defend a planet or yard at the cost of a half corvette.
I actually find it quite interesting that no one so far built ships to counter fighters - but then, no one but the FS has actually researched AC/20s yet.
Also, how did you get 292 systems for the LC? Did you count every dot on the map in blue space?
I think we can probably treat systems shown on the map as 'habitable', though at this point many will not be inhabited, at least not by any significant population. There is no way at this early date the LC has meaningful populations on all 292 worlds. At the same time, if we were showing EVERY star, those maps would be far more densely populated.
Still, putting a coaling station or at least some lonely people out in the black over every potentially habitable system in LC space has to have some value.
For the record, you should not worry about or attempt to garrison -every- solar body in LC space. Napkinmath suggests low hundreds of thousands, at least.
Definitely excessive. :D
... but man, counting all the dots. You got too much time. ;D Just like I use too many smileys.
As for Anti-Fighter weapons: Barracudas. They may not be weight-effective, but they are cost-effective. Fighters do offer a great power to weight ratio.
Probably the best tactic against fighter swarms is to just run away, but stay in threat range, and give the enemy a bit of Nagumo's Dilemma.
Artillery Cannons I mostly just like for the fluff, but they do offer a reasonably ranged, 20 damage weapon to hit fighters with. Sure, in 5pt clusters, but still. It's just... I know it's space, but Flak just needs to explode... :-[
So, I've been pondering this for a long while now, but didn't know how to post it; If I build a fleet tender with a large repair bay, can I fix ships near the front and thus increase effective fleet readiness?
Simiarly, a cheap yard forward might help, as well. Id allow even a small yard to help REPAIR a larger ship, even if it couldnt BUILD it.
Also, how did you get 292 systems for the LC? Did you count every dot on the map in blue space?
I counted twenty in the Blue space ;D
Thought about making a Warship for pure Anti-Fighter Duty. Don't have the budget for the PoR although I have been trying to think about it. Problem is it has to be a larger vessel to be very effective at least IMO. I also want it to have a fighter wing (or three) of its own and enough Cargo and Droppers to help this. Batteries of Larger Lasers/PPC's (maybe some Mediums), AC/20s and batteries of MG's, maybe a bunch of AC/2's or AC/5's, bunch of LRM 20's. Heavy Armor but fast speed, with NCSS. Barracuda's and NL/45's as really the only Capital Armament but they are good at anti-fighter duty too.
Class/Model/Name: CG Gul Fagel (Swedish: 'Yellow Bird')
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $9,508,604,000.00
Magazine Cost: $31,535,200.00
BV2: 117,827
Mass: 750,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Improved Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
40 Naval Laser 45
80 Capital Launcher Barracuda
240 LRM 20 (IS)
240 AC 5
160 Laser Large
80 AC 2
80 Machine Gun (IS)
Class/Model/Name: CG Arquera
Mass: 750,000
Equipment: Mass
Drive: 180,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 4
Maximum: 6
Controls: 1,875.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (16 Integrity) 339,375.00
Jump Sail: (5 Integrity) 68.00
Structural Integrity: 130 97,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 6645 Single 6,000.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 12500 points 5,100.00
Fire Control Computers: 9,240.00
Armor: 1248 pts Improved Ferro-Aluminum 1,950.00
Fore: 208
Fore-Left/Right: 208/208
Aft-Left/Right: 208/208
Aft: 208
Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100.00
Escape Pods: 50 350.00
Life Boats: 50 350.00
Crew And Passengers:
78 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 780.00
117 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 819.00
266 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 1,862.00
110 Bay Personnel 0.00
Equipment
Large NCSS
Bays
Bay 1, RBS 20 Fighters, 6 Doors
Bay 2, LBS, 20 Fighters, 6 Doors
Bay 3, Aft, 6 Small Craft, 20,974 Tons Cargo, 4 Doors
Armament:
Nose, RBS, LBS, Aft:
10 Barracuda (10 Rounds Ea)
60 LRM/20 (20 Rnds Ea)
60 AC/5 (20 Rnds Ea)
40 LLaser (20 Rnds Ea)
20 AC/2 (20 Rnds Ea)
20 MG (100 Rnds Ea)
FR, FL, AR, AL
10 NL/45
10 Barracuda (10 Rounds Ea)
I actually find it quite interesting that no one so far built ships to counter fighters - but then, no one but the FS has actually researched AC/20s yet.
Every ship and starbase runs NLs for a reason. Those are the first line of defense. Most of my ships that I expect to go up against fighters either run fighters/small craft themselves, have a dropship for carrying fighters, or run barracuda. And while AC/5s (and MGs but... yeah) are admittedly bad... thus my CVs, cause all things being even, the side with the most fighters will control "air" space, eventually.Well, last game we didn't have the 100-1 conversion of capital damage.
But you'll note my newest ship mounts NLs for reach out and touch someone, 40 LLs for medium, and 80 AC/20s for "you can ****** right off now, please. Or if you don't please." I hope I am running a layered defense against fighters. Aero, Cuda, NLs, LLs, AC/20s. Prob need some LRMs. Those are coming.
Not as good as a dedicated PDS boat, but again, I have CVs, so kinda PDS boat, and... no one else has them... So, until the threat steps up, I'm okay with that.
Class/Model/Name: Fleet Tender
Ship Cost: $13,240,608,000.00
Magazine Cost: $0.00
Mass: 900,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
16 Naval Laser 45
96 Laser Small
Equipment: Mass
Drive: 162,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 2,250.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (19 Integrity) 407,250.00
Jump Sail: (5 Integrity) 75.00
Structural Integrity: 75 67,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 1216 Single 602.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 18750 points 7,650.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 508 pts Standard 1,150.00
Fore: 80
Fore-Left/Right: 85/85
Aft-Left/Right: 85/85
Aft: 88
Dropship Capacity: 0 0.00
Grav Decks:
55m : 1 50.00
109m : 2 200.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 100 700.00
Life Boats: 110 770.00
Crew And Passengers:
49 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 49.00
176 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 176.00
63 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 63.00
624 Bay Personnel 0.00
5 1st Class Passengers 50.00
362 2nd Class Passengers 2,534.00
300 Steerage Passengers 1,500.00
# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
2 Naval Laser 45 All 140 90 (9-C) Extreme-C 1,800.00
12 Laser Small All 12 36 (3.6-C) 6.00
Equipment Mass
NCSS Small 100.00
Naval Tug Adapter 90,100.00
MASH Unit 7.50
Repair Bay Unpressurized 500k 12500
72 Fighters
96 Small Craft
76kt Cargo
Been pondering this for a while now, so the design is weeks old. Could provide a forward fleet with maintenance and crews with grav deck leave. Something like this?
I usually just fix them when I see them.Well, last game we didn't have the 100-1 conversion of capital damage.
I honestly think 20 to 1 with an extra /5 penalty for fighters attacking warships would have been the more sensible approach.
Thing is, even last time, the amount of fighters was mostly due to them being able to carry capital missiles, at a time when fighters wouldn't really exist, at all.
And warships having large strips of toilet paper for armour, but that is another matter.
... actually, could you just mine all the empty systems you want "guarded"?
Edit:Code: [Select]Class/Model/Name: Fleet TenderBeen pondering this for a while now, so the design is weeks old. Could provide a forward fleet with maintenance and crews with grav deck leave.
Snip
Obviously, with the price involved, it'd probably be cheaper to build a new yard every second turn.
Maybe I should create a full-on Holiday ship instead. :))
That is actually a pretty good idea.
Of course, that means practically no cargo for the spares to do the repairing with.
Still, limiting maintenance to 2b a turn... :-\
Actual robotic fighters could, of course, work, but why not just actual mines?
I could see the point of a few drones defending an automated jump ship with a sensor suite as a tripwire, though. As soon as an unidentified force larger than a single 200kt ship jumps in, jump to the nearest inhabited system and raise the alarm.
:stupid: Of course, that requires a reaction to actually be available.
Minefields CAN work in 3D, but require a LOT more mines...
Those work too, but require FAST mines...
Afraid to out myself as an uncultured barbarian, but ... I never read any Honorverse. I assume I can read something about it? Or would it be watch.
What do you mean, though? I have minelayers on nearly all my ships.
Though for all their tactical applications, their strategic implications are ... limited. Certainly, it's impossible to prevent an enemy from reaching a specific system, and discouraging an approach only works if you place them very close to the object of attraction, which is generally were you don't want them because you have to be there yourself.
David Drake's RCN books had a pretty good take on minefields, I think.
Are the space mines deployed by space mine-layers defined anywhere in the rules? I cannot find them.
Well, you told me earlier, and I mostly kept that because... well, it gives them flavour. Though now you mention it I agree, I've boarded the gimp train long before this.
I think it's quite the pity that "ideal" designs are so obviously herded into just a few niches.
Oh, I have actually been planning for a fast, long ranged design for a while now. Just, it keeps growing, because it needs to be more capable, and then I have neither the yard nor the money for it... :-X
Cost doesn't actually factor into it much, unless you build an L-F Battery design with N-Gauss *cough*.
Mostly, though, that's not even what I meant.
It's that every design will have the maximum amount of armour it can carry, exactly as many heatsinks as are required to fire all it's weapons, and unless you need every ton to reach a specific cargo fraction or hangar space where every ton counts, as much SI as the engine allows until you reach around 100.
So, when I keep designs with less SI, or way more than that, I think I might also have that in mind.
Really, in the same way that double heatsinks on mechs kind of killed a part of the decision making, to be replaced 15 years later by advanced electronic warfare.
Now, in this kind of RP environment, I don't mind as much (though I still pity dropships), but if I were to try and just optimise a ship to the best of my ability, I think I'd feel bad about myself.
I try to keep some fluff in there. Internal politics. All the fun stuff. ;D
Does anyone have any objections to letting the computer-powered warships with jump drives jump?
multiple feet engagements,
Well, they can't jump much because it kills the AI, but jumping them somewhere with a skeleton crew and then turning on to work as a defensive asset, + no need for a big cargo hold seems like a workable solution.
As long as they aren't a viable offensive tool, I don't see the problem. FASA, after all, never had to contend with actual sense and economic realities.
Would make them an interesting alternative to station spam.
As I was apparently unclear...
Are there objections to *changing the rule* about jumping killing the AI?
Rationale:
1.) AI Warships are cool, and this allows them to actually exist in a meaningful fashion.
2.) Caspers are.. not game breakers, in the rules as written. Potentially good, but not game breakers, IMHO.
3.) We can already turn off the AI, Human hits Jump Button, AI turns back on. If we replace 'Human' with 'Bog Standard Non-AI-Computer' or 'Mechanical Computer with Gears' or even 'heavy weight and timer', then we can take the human out of the equation. 'AI' part goes to sleep, its automatic lower level system handles the actual jump, it boots itself back up.
Soliciting feedback at this juncture.
I'm more interested in 'tweaks to ways existing things behave' than 'new thing that a player who isnt in this exercise wouldnt recognize'.
IE, Im taking 'whatever comes out the back has to work in the core RAW, even if some of the choices are headscratchers' as my pole star.
*** Wait : Line 28 under Tech heading *** Explain, the limit to update the yards is no longer limited to 1 per turn?
You know what?
We don't have Extended Ranged weapons!
We have Pulses and the ER PPC / Clan ER PPC, but no ER weapons. I suggest IS-ER Weapons and replace that Clan ER PPC with just Clan Weapons below Clan Structures.
TT
Just occured to me:
What is, rules wise, the advantage of AMS over Small Lasers?
Can it fire more often? Deal more damage?
I was kinda envisioning a Quixote Frigate style, except a bit smaller. Try and cut costs by dropping a couple things like the NAC's, some of the collars, the fighters, etc. Try and keep a lot of the cargo too. Send a couple in, unload the missiles in a massive wave or two and let the rest of the fleet finish the enemy off.
Might be sporting, espc once bearings only launches come in against an opponent soow enough that they cant escape the short range-gate basket before the missiles arrive (and the short basket is pretty big on a barracuda!)
Drive up, empty your tubes from outside the range of reply, and then have a fight.
If I had money for LF Batteries.... run in drop a bunch of nuke armed missiles and jump out. I'd probably have to switch to an eviler faction if I considered doing that though
Reminder: For purposes of this game, Warship armament is already nuclear, or of a similar scale. Missile warheads may already be contact nukes, or bomb-pumped laser heads, or casaba howiters. Or they may just be appallingly fast 20+ ton kinetic impactors. Pick your poison.
Now I kinda wanna write homebrew rules for like 5 different flavors of missile warhead. Bad marcus, wrong thread. :)
Hey the RWR do have the Sagittarius now with 40 missile tubes to darken the skies with. Plenty evil enough.
Of course: I didn't mean to offend the RWR and their already missile heavy design. But in the traditions of the Dictators of the.. er... future... we gotta amp that up a bit. Darken the skies of Terra and all....
Class/Model/Name: Eclipse
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $7,103,510,000.00
Magazine Cost: $42,000,000.00
BV2: 81,958
Mass: 750,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 3
Maximum Thrust: 5
Armor Type: Improved Ferro-Aluminum
Armament:
200 Capital Launcher White Shark
60 Laser Large
100 Laser Small
Class/Model/Name: Eclipse
Mass: 750,000
Equipment: Mass
Drive: 135,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 3
Maximum: 5
Controls: 1,875.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (16 Integrity) 339,375.00
Jump Sail: (5 Integrity) 68.00
Structural Integrity: 100 75,000.00
Total Heat Sinks: 3580 Single 3,016.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 10000 points 4,080.00
Fire Control Computers: 4,870.00
Armor: 960 pts Improved Ferro-Aluminum 1,500.00
Fore: 140
Fore-Left/Right: 170/170
Aft-Left/Right: 170/170
Aft: 140
Dropship Capacity: 0 0.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 2 100.00
Medium: 0.00
Large: 0.00
Escape Pods: 0.00
Life Boats: 50 350.00
Crew And Passengers:
72 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 720.00
123 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 861.00
233 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 1,631.00
102 Bay Personnel 0.00
1st Class Passengers 0.00
100 2nd Class Passengers 700.00
Steerage Passengers 0.00Do you calculate the ship stats for the turn including or excluding the ships we build that turn?
I'm trying to bungle together a graph to see the development over the turns. Including stations, or without them?
Ah, I'm not much into those details.
I just figured I could make some nice graphs. :) Mostly asking because the count just didn't add up for me.
Might add SI to the calculation, though. Then I'll have to go through everyone's page and check the actual weapons, so I can distinguish firepower by range. Average speed, maybe.
Would it be ok if I add /total calculations to the doc?
;D
I luckily don't have enough time for that.
I did try, at university, to create a collision system once, and even that failed. Well, arrow notation is complicated.
I would probably just add counters for warships, stations, and their SI/armour to the faction tabs, unter the ships. Auto-calculating the damage output at specific ranges would require more comprehensive additions that I don't really want to add to a working system without planning - which I don't want to do if it might be unwanted.
Btw, what is the maintenance cost for mothballs? I've been using 10% of regular maintenance cost.
Also, starting next turn, I'll recalculate my maintenance to actually include ammunition. Not that that impacts the price much.
;D
I luckily don't have enough time for that.
I did try, at university, to create a collision system once, and even that failed. Well, arrow notation is complicated.
I would probably just add counters for warships, stations, and their SI/armour to the faction tabs, unter the ships. Auto-calculating the damage output at specific ranges would require more comprehensive additions that I don't really want to add to a working system without planning - which I don't want to do if it might be unwanted.
So looking at the spreadsheet, I don't notice any of this turn's builds on the sheet? Like the 1 Achilles I built, or any of the med DS I built. Is that intentional?
Splendid.
Shades of the Falklands on the Taurian front. 8)
Only thing missing is the Taurians having bought their Navy from the FS before.
Man, those Rasalhagians, why do they keep fighting over their dirt so much. Should have built more stations.
Still, economically speaking, it was relatively even.
The battles certainly show that combat dropships are not worth the resources, even if they were free.
Well, that's unfortunate. I didn't really want to start fighting the Lyrans yet.But you did want to fight them. Right?
But you did want to fight them. Right?I mean, I'd rather pick on the Capellans or crush the Periphery "powers" on my borders, at least until the Combine isn't being held back by the Principality of Rasalhague
Right? : ;)
Quick thematic OOC question.
Can we get an escalation is the bloodiness of the combat?
Right now our fleets are just growing and expanding and they will become more and more unwieldy for you guys to GM at the standard you're working towards.
And while a battle with 50+ ships is very cool I don't want things to become too much.
Kindalas: Did you not see the TCN get the shit kicked out of it?
We haven't gone too bloody just yet because it was still the first few turns, and people haven't built large fleets to kick the shit out of each other with. Most of you keep spending all your money on research, so we end up with the situation where the Rim Worlds have a fleet almost the size of the Fed Suns (especially in Size, if not in raw hull numbers), on less than half the budget.
Tyler: Scrapping a ship will give you 25% of it's value.
And no you cannot modify a ship without a yard of sufficient size. A yard too small can do repairs and maintenance, but nothing else.
Kindalas: Did you not see the TCN get the shit kicked out of it?
We haven't gone too bloody just yet because it was still the first few turns, and people haven't built large fleets to kick the shit out of each other with. Most of you keep spending all your money on research, so we end up with the situation where the Rim Worlds have a fleet almost the size of the Fed Suns (especially in Size, if not in raw hull numbers), on less than half the budget.
For the Periphery as a whole: 'Everything's fine here. We're good. We're all good. Had a slight problem but everything's fixed. How are you?"
Edit2: I noticed, on the ship creation spreadsheet, that I often have a specific amount of tonnage left, and when I add exactly that tonnage as cargo, I still have 1 more ton.
If you dont put a quantity for a piece of equipment on the spreadsheet, it treats it as 1.I am afraid I do not follow.
I am afraid I do not follow.The spreadsheet has an error correction in the formulas. So when you select an item it assumes that you put a 1 in for the quantity.
Tech Thoughts:
1.) Black Box Tech: Historically, they come in around 2500. While inferior to the HPG and superceded by it, historically, they have a number of advantages, not the least of which is their trivial (on our scale) size and cost.
2.) Subcapital Weaponry: Doesnt happen till late in the OTL, but thats in some ways a game rules/IRL timeline issue. ‘Guys, what if we made medium sized guns’ is not a radical idea or technology - and I think it would give us an interesting bit of added complexity. What say you?
3.) Tech Progress. Ive now had several players coming to me concerned about tech rates. Im willing to entertain ideas on that. My -current- idea is to extend the tech tree by adding more technologies and breaking some things down into more ‘bits’ - buying us time without changing the rules - and also to give yall more big fights where ships are lost and territory changes hands - to put more pressure on to build warships in this putative warship arms race. Thoughts?
... Collars? None of CC ships have collars?Ok, maybe I'm misreading the spreadsheet. What does DSC / 2 mean?
Okay, this is a super-rough draft of a modified tech tree.
High Notes:
1.) Blank Spaces! These are techs that dont do anything, cant be skipped, and dont ever get a discount. If this doesnt stretch things out enough, Im willing to add more blank spaces.
2.) Early Subcapitals! Because its not a complicated idea, and it allows..
3.) Worthwhile Combat Droppers! Generic Combat Droppers will have a starting value of roughly their mass of warships. This isnt great, but its better than nothing. Each of the three subcapital weapon techs improve this by 33%, to a maximum of 100%. Thus a Large Combat Dropper with all three technologies available will be worth (again very roughly) twice its mass in warships in a fight. This means a 100kt Castrum style combat dropper is about as good as a 200kt warship, and a pack of 5 of them is theoretically on par with a 1MT Warship (though beware attrition. The 5 of them might rip off the warships armor and send it into 'retreat', at a loss of 3 of their own, while the warship is just needing repairs and will be back...)
If we have to raise the cost of Combat Droppers or do a separate line for them, we will.
4.) Microconstruction got broken up into multiple techs across multiple trees.
5.) Black Boxes added. Useful, cause though they are inferior to an HPG, they are light and cheap and can fit on almost anything.
6.) Sustainment added. Newtech. Each level reduces the maintenance cost of Class 1 warships by 5%, with a decreased effect of 1 level per size class. Thus Sustainment V would lower the maintenance of size 1 ships by 25%, size 2 ships by 20%, etc. This is intended to offset SOME (but not all!) of the upwards pressure on ship size.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nayAFCuDjUsyKDWln6Bw9JTtTG-onZibkZ4cV-UVC2I/edit?usp=sharing
What would you want better jump computers to do, mechanically? How big an effect?
Regarding this turn.
What does ECM give me?
I assume it is things like the Guardian ECM for fighters and the integrated DS and warship ECM systems.
And does Improved ECM lead to Angel ECM or the SLDF SDS Ecm systems?
I like the idea to buff dropships somewhat. Really, they mostly just need to be a bit tougher. Though just vaguely saying "they are x% of a warship" might be a little too vague.
What does it mean? They take less damage? They deal more? Harder to hit? Their very presence bends space time to wisk 10% of your armour away into another dimension?
We'd need at least some idea on how to counter them, assuming they are worth countering.
I think we could add an extra tech for it that allows a dropship weight somewhere between medium and large, or maybe just "improved dropship armour" to make them reach their potential.
I personally don't see a problem with empty tech slots. Though I suppose I wouldn't mind that not being there, either.
Call it "improved lab equipment" or "expanded testing facilities", and you can either pay something for it (maybe half a tech) or wait until some threshold is reached or whatever happens - thus, players could slow progress a little bit, and the problem would solve itself. Maybe count techs researched in that tree total (all players)? I would still group techs, though. Like, 1 empty space every 3 or 4, and you'd need to have researched at least 1 of those before proceeding. Players should still have a reasonable choice and feeling of progress.
Could also just make tech a little bit more expensive if you research more than 1 per turn.
Jumps... I thought that was a factor of crew training, and thus, maintenance. I suppose I see no problem with getting an upgrade or two to make it a bit easier, but it should be a risk.
I think we should also move the not yet researched armour improvements down a little, maybe 1 and 2. Also, could we move the Kraken a bit lower and T-op missiles a bit higher?
It's kind of weird to have it available 4 slots earlier than the obvious requirement.
Added the Jump Computers. I put them in Miniaturization, because, well, microcomputers, and because thats a tree that gets less love.I planned around getting it next turn. And I still think Ferro-Carbide is too easy to get. But whatever floats your boat.
As I see other cool ideas, Im down to fill in the blank spots with them, at which point they are not blank spots but regular techs. But in general it needs to be stuff that wont change the sheets or radically change the game.
I dont think we should move the current 'nearest' armor, Ferro-Lamellor - its too close, and too big a tech, and I'm sure some of you literally planned around it and its availability.
Utterly self-indulgent CC Turn 4 fluff posted. Crunch will follow at some point.
*looks at THN*
*sighs*
I hate doing THN turns.
Added the Jump Computers. I put them in Miniaturization, because, well, microcomputers, and because thats a tree that gets less love.
As I see other cool ideas, Im down to fill in the blank spots with them, at which point they are not blank spots but regular techs. But in general it needs to be stuff that wont change the sheets or radically change the game.
I dont think we should move the current 'nearest' armor, Ferro-Lamellor - its too close, and too big a tech, and I'm sure some of you literally planned around it and its availability.
Utterly self-indulgent CC Turn 4 fluff posted. Crunch will follow at some point.
*looks at THN*
*sighs*
I hate doing THN turns.
I get you on the dropships. I'd be ok with them mostly being generic designs, though.
Having them work as normal and be customizeable would just lead to them being superior. I think we could add a tech or two to that effect - start them off at a worse conversion (well, better than fighters) and improve them through such a tech.
I'm just going to repeat my idea, in case it got overlooked, for custom DS but they cost what the rules say or the generic cost. Whichever is greater.
That way if we want to make OP designs for whichever task then we pay considerably more, in some cases, then the generic cost. And we lose the flexibility that comes with generic multi purpose designs.
The problem is, as your GM, I cannot promise I could in any meaningful way keep track of multiple custom DS designs on top of all the warships. You would be spending time and extra money for something I would forget about, be reminded of, and then have to rewrite a fight to keep track of.
On the other hand, I found my mojo for THN. I amuse myself, if nothing else.
That gives me an evil idea for a turn event...
“Some A-hole has convinced $National Leader that $Bad Idea is the next big thing in naval warfare. You will build 3d6 $Bad Ideas next turn, all other priorities are secondary.”
I mean, I already did that with the Talwar. Forcing everyone else to make bad decisions sounds good to me.
A third edition of this... heh. Lets get this edition past turn 10 before we worry about a third.
For battles vs NPCs
Would you two GM's want help with writing the battle fluff?
Because I would be interested in writing battle outcomes.
If I was given a list of participants and losses to account for.
I think it would be different for PC factions fighting each other. Since it might end up taking away player agency.
SIGINT Reprt THN Maine lost all hands over foreign space. Internal explosion. Cause unknown
If the Hegemony had an accident then i'm certain that their turns would be much easier to write.
If the Hegemony had an accident then i'm certain that their turns would be much easier to write.You know, the more I read up on it... it doesn't even have to come that far.
Hypothetical:
One of your neighbors and the Terran Hegemony are engaged in a really nasty pissing contest. Dead ships everywhere. Like, for reals yo dead ships. It's going far worse for the THN than anyone would ever have expected (including your GM, but math is math) but its still the Terran Hegemony. They'll still be the biggest kid on the block when the dust settles unless something SUPER WEIRD happens.
Your Archon/Coordinator/Prime Minister/Captain-General/Kaiser/Protector/Divine God-Emperor has come to you for advice.
The Hegemony is ludicrously rich. Their budget is over 700B off of about 100 worlds. Your budget is a bit over 300 off of about 300 worlds. See what I mean by rich?. And it is a rich man that is distracted right now. Do we want to grab what we can while its distracted? Lots of free money on the table, those worlds havent been Hegemony for long, maybe theyll come over easy. OTOH, the Hegemony will probably remember you, and not in a 'send Christmas Cards' sort of way. OTOOH, they have someone else they hate more.
On the other hand, your maybe-neighbor isnt as rich, but hey, they aren't as strong. Maybe we want to shiv them in the kidneys while they are distracted by the 500lb gorilla in the room. Even if they WIN, they probably wont be in a position to pivot to making us hate it, and hey, free planets are free planets. Less risk, less reward.
We could send a strongly worded letter and invite everyone to a peace conference! Show the inner sphere our smiling face and what wonderful people we are, and maybe convince them to Buy Draconis! For all your Katana-Shaped Needs.
Or maybe we just go 'My names Paul and thats between Yall' and no good comes of volunteering for a guest part in the Twilight of the Gods.
Not saying that $National Leader is going to LISTEN to you... but he does want your advice.
Hypothetically.
You can answer privately if you like, but publicly could be more fun. If you don't answer at all, I'll assume you are telling your $National Leader that the Navy will follow orders but cannot advise on political matters.
Hardened yards- Yards are armored, or moved into/built into asteroids, allowing a maximum 1 size reduction when/if attacked, or maybe "Yard hardening I" prevents a yard from being damaged more than 1/2 its tier round up, (t2 could go t1 but not destroyed, t7 would go to t4, t1 destroyed?), and a 2nd level might prevent reduction by more than 1 tier. I'd go with zero cost (cost was the 'research' paid) mostly to prevent book-keeping.
Space Castles Jester- Moon or asteroid fixed emplacements for space engagements. (Canon thing done, just never seen rules for it? though I own I might not have looked hard either)
I think the basic approach was to not do anything that would make ships incompatible with canon - just maybe not make much sense.
If missiles turn out far too weak, maybe we'll just tune down AMS a little.
"Increased missile range +360km" or "Faster recharge in friendly territory" (providing an indeterminate, GM-decided increase in strategic mobility) sound workable, though - standardised effects that can be easily listed in a spreadsheet, and thus, not forgotten. Of course, "capital missiles have +1 health" would actually be a powerful ability, and is hopefully still simple enough.
Armoured installations sound very useful, but that should only work on drive-by attacks. A case like FS vs. TC, where one side has days to pound existing infrastructure into dust, would be unlikely to be affected. Though that allows something else - hidden yards. ^-^
Actually, if I wanted to buy a CC ship, I would never be able to refit it, would I?
Ruins of Gabrial
Camelot
Now I wonder if BOTH couldn't be combined?
TT
Wish that the TH would come to the aid of us periphery... oh wait they do, until we back stab them!
* Hey we're greedy like that... *
Marian Hegemony calls DIBS on the Terran Hegemony!
TT
O:-)
I still think the RWR has too big of a budget. It's bigger than the TC in terms of territory, yes, but there's no indication in canon that this translated into a better developed infrastructure. The opposite in fact. Since the Amarises are selfish ****** who don't give much of a piss about the average joe citizen, while the TC invested heavily in a better educated populace.
nor the FS any particular love
I'm thinking about starting a TRO for this game.
If I can get things organized are you guys interested in letting me use your designs?
And if I get organized are you guys interested in expanding your fleet fluff to to TRO levels?
There are a bunch of IFs in these questions.
How much of a debt are we allowed to go into in a turn?
Nooo, don't let the magic smoke out! :'(
Anyway, thats my reasoning. I certainly bear the TC no animus nor the FS any particular love - but the GMs (to peek behind the curtain) dont choose who goes to war with who. Its a random function, weighted for war weariness/eagerness, leader personality and competence, and likely targets. T
RE: RWR and Amaris - As I recall, the Amaris family doesnt take over the RWR until... sometime in the 2400s? And that particular nest of vipers may well and truly be butterflied away by this point.Yup. No Amaris to see here.
First, thanks for moving the conversation here.I had not considered that part, TBH. Still, the Calderon expedition had in fact been steadily expanding even before the Concordat's official founding in 2335, having been in there since the 2250's. By comparison the RWR's founder immediately announced its founding upon arrival in 2250 when his fledgling republic had barely more than a basic settlement and a pirate fleet to its name.
As to the relative power of the TC as opposed to the RWR, my underlying rationales were largely as follows:
1.) The RWR is about a century older than the TC, allowing more time for economic growth.
2.) The RWR was significantly greater in territorial extent, both on the older maps I could find and at its height. Territory doesnt map 1:1 to economic power, of course, look at the Hegemony! But its not a bad starting place.The real kicker is whether the central government is invested in developing these worlds and the people living in them, and historically, the Amarises weren't up until the post-Reunification War which will be discussed in a bit. By comparison, the TC has always put a premium on educating its people.
3.) By 2750, the RWR had the economic power to be a springboard for the Coup. While never quite matching the big 5, it always seemed to me to come the closest to doing so. (Followed directly and fairly closely by the TC, which seemed to usually be the strongest of the periphery powers after the RWR is wrecked in the secession wars)The Coup was implied to be a long range plan hatched not long after the Reunification Wars when the Amarises, spiteful bastards that they were, thought themselves unfairly treated by the Star League they had sworn allegiance to(and suffered through the ignominy of a coup d'etat for). What's more, the secret armies were built up on funds embezzled through Stefan's friendship with Richard. Much of it was actually built by TH companies before being shuffled through several cutouts and funneled into the secret armies. Very few of it was actually built by RWR companies. An industrial powerhouse, the RWR was never made out to be.
Bah, my capital never had whales. Get those space hippies of my planet, and stop stealing scientists.
Though, as someone has said, better trained, better equipped troops can hold their own against their adversaries far better than linear arithmetic would indicate.
The diminishing returns, I believe, lie in how often that works - a small elite force can hit the enemy where it hurts. the next two will just hit the first one's hands. xp
Now, the question is: Will reducing the base maintenance also reduce how much extra you have to spend to increase performance on those ships? Or is that a static?
That said, we do not have an agreement on the new tech tree (though I am happy with it, it appears others are not, and I've not checked with Smegish yet) so we dont know what it would look like if implemented.
My only issue with the tech tree is that we have blank spots.
As much as I want to think that this game will last long enough to buy 50 tech upgrades in each category I can't assume that it will.
I took the time to also make a version. Just because that seems to be the hot new thing. :thumbsup:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kjFupQ_eEGwP91QCkePKO5D2D74B3gs_0C587TW_mZk/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kjFupQ_eEGwP91QCkePKO5D2D74B3gs_0C587TW_mZk/edit?usp=sharing)
Well, I'm fine with whatever.
hmm. Could use blank spots as "take a break, get it free/very cheap", or pay to power through and research now. Fast progress would incur a cost.
Alternatively, have blank lines that you'll have to research once each, with your research slot from whatever column you currently need the least.
There isnt a bright line.Great. My turn should be up in a few hours then.
My gut ‘sense of things’ is that it will depend on how much trouble you are in (The Taurian Admiralty can justify a lot more debt spending than the Capellan Confederation), how strong central authority is (the FWLN probably has more leeway to overrun its budget than the DCN) how long youve been carrying it, etc.
For a one turn thing, you would guess you can probably get away with a 5-10% overrun pretty safely.
Those are some arguments for juggling the numbers if I ever run another one of these. In the meantime, I’d just chant ‘AU’ and ‘Fasanomics’ until the cognitive dissonance declines.Or I dunno... Have the TC realign its spending priorities in the wake of the disaster to at least put the budget on parity with the RWR.
As someone who never lost an opportunity to lambast the BTU writers for Getting It Wrong, it is educational to find myself on the other side of the shelling. :)
Hmm. Interesting. Would need details on what all the new techs do. Maybe fill them in below and hyperlink them, just because there are so many.Oh, I'm aware that's a lot. Which was unexpected, because I set out to just add 2 levels of "improve weapon X", so we could have something to research that would differentiate the realms.
I'm concerned that it may be too long? I know someone wants his Jump Capable (IE, useful) Caspers before summer of 2021... And I might keep the research rules simpler.
Beyond that, while Id like to see details on what you think everything does, and maybe look at Jester's version for ideas (or vice versa!), but its not a bad start.
As for the 20:1 conversion.. the intent of the subcap and other techs was to make that unnecessary, for purposes of keeping dropships in the game. If your planning on giving 20:1 to fighters... I really feel that would take us back to carriers becoming the only warship.Ah, no. I meant except fighters vs. Capital armour. This would make base dropships at least require a full salvo to kill, and increase the viability of their base armament while giving Warships a reason to mount standard scale weapons, as opposed to just NL/35s or later SCLs.
Or I dunno... Have the TC realign its spending priorities in the wake of the disaster to at least put the budget on parity with the RWR.
My turn is up.
In regards to pocket Warships, I would like for them to exist, although I acknowledge my focus on dropship collars on my Marik's combined with large jumpship fleet means that it gives me an advantage that might unbalance making those decisions as opposed to a pure combat focus.
Finally, I have been wanting to write up a short description of the most important admirals in my fleet, to hep give you guys an idea how they are likely to jump and add to the divided nature of the League, but I'm not sure if I should post it here, in the In Character thread, or in a new thread. Where would you guys want me to put it?
That said, in an endeavour like this the default position is and must be ‘dont change the rules without a compelling reason’. Last game saw some serious rules change whiplash, and that hurt it, so lets give everyone some time to chime in before this gets chased any further.Absolutely. Never change a running system, they say. Well, it must've been right once. ;)
... At the same time, I will remain uncomfortable with the idea of a Leopard surviving an HNPPC to the face, due to the whole ‘gun weighs nearly as much as ship’ issue.
What did I do this turn that is so loony? And you haven't seen anything yet, my admirals that will be competeing to replace Michaels once he retires/dies are going to be interesting characters with some interesting ideas.
You sure put some effort in, Venser. :thumbsup: Trying to make the FWL look as loony as possible?
Absolutely. Never change a running system, they say. Well, it must've been right once. ;)
Reason really I'd go for a bunch of upgrades to turn dropships into a combat force; it means it hasn't happened yet, and won't for a few turns, so it is no sudden change.
I would like pocket warships to be a thing, but, in line with the historic idea of a warship race, I am not aiming at CBT equivalency, and more at the 19th century force mix with torpedo boats/destroyers as a fleet screen/coastal defense.
...
That is actually the motivation for me suggesting 20/1 base.^^ Even a medium NPPC would have sufficient power to wipe the leopard off the charts. An Isegrimm or Taihou, however, would take more to remove.
But let's shelve this for now, for we have two weeks time to come to a decision, and that decision may very well be "We'll decide in two weeks". ;D
I will endeavour to finish my turn before the weekend, and will include final numbers for my ships. The pre-turn numbers are effectively in the maintenance listing.
Should I just update them directly in the spreadsheet, too?
You sure put some effort in, Venser. :thumbsup: Trying to make the FWL look as loony as possible?
Man if I knew i could go like waaaaaaaaaaaaaay over my budget I would have had the corrupt Admiral in charge for Decades lol
I have not kept up with the tech comments.....at all.... I should be caught up on all the changes... eventually lol
And I planned my next turn to pay off all the debt as long as nothing goes really wrong.
EDIT: I have added the personalities to my turn.
So, I heard there were ships around I could buy? O:-)
Hey, it's cheaper than building a new flagship for a 4th destroyer squadron. 8)
But yeh, no worries.
Edit: A curious thing. By selling those ships now, effectively no one is paying for their maintenance.
The capellans sell them, so it's not their problem. The buyer, well, buys them, so there's a turn of no maintenance. :D
Though if there was, it'd make more sense to just build your own ships.
edit2: If I build a proprietary jump ship design, where do I put it? Above, with small craft and, well, jump ships, or below, with my military capital units?
I think we leave it alone for now and handwave. Lets just take as given that if people start gaming that no maintenance bit, there will be repercussions - ships getting lost in transit, disgruntled former crewmen leaving fusion-containment-failure surprises, nations in the line of advance 'seizing' them, or the like.I wouldn't know what to do about it, either. That's the "don't change the rules in the middle of the game" bit. Same with the too cheap yards.
I and others have been putting Custom/Armed Jumpers with the Warships and Stations. Once its custom, its not generic.Ah, good point. That makes sense.
I spent some time.....
Hope some of you find this useful.
Yeah, you effectively have 120 dropships worth on 36 hulls.
I presume cheaper per collar, but with the obvious downsides if being ludicrous overkill for most applications. How very Lyran.
Asking the Audience/Canon Divergence: Currently, the Leader of the Commonwealth is a Marsden, not a Steiner - and without a marriage and a death that both may not occur, it may stay that way. But is it the LC without the Steiners?
Similarly, the Capital of the LC is NOT Tharkad. Nor the DC Luthien. Nor the CC Sian. All those changes happened for historical reasons. Would it bother people if they didnt happen here?
I spent some time writing some tool spreadsheets for everyone to use if they want.That's very useful! Must've been work.
We have already reached the point where most things won't happen.
I'll illustrate for my realm.
The castle brian will not be named as such because it is the brainchild of a director general who was a diplomat in the Combine before, who did slightly different things.
Tenno Kurita would kill himself after his daughter died to Rasalhaguian terrorists - which she couldn't, now, as that's hostile territory, and why would she be there.
Luthien is a minor farming world now and will only be industrialised centuries from now. Whether that happens is anyone's guess, but it's far into the future.
That's very useful! Must've been work.
The speed listing looks rather confused, I have to admit.
Fyi, maybe we should list a range for every capital weapon and then do a performance curve per ship - after all, we're not using the range brackets.
edit: Primitive tech is darn expensive, is it? That's kinda.... backwards. ^-^
There are always ways to warp or control the story so that things happen, if not -exactly- the way they were supposed to, but still get the desired effect.That only works to a certain extent. At some point it will begin to stretch believablility.
It's really not that important until someone actually wants to automatically read those values. ^^
Currently trying to figure out a way to parse data from text cells - I know how to do it in excel.
Ok, We could do it with Regexmatch.
But it's really quite a pain with the different ways people write the data.
Mostly it's ##x WPN, sometimes it's just ## WPN, then there's a ##WPN.
Hard to parse. Possible, though.
Edit: I put an example of text extraction into the DC page of our Spreadsheet. I seemed to remember it was easier than that in Excel, but I'll be able to live with this.
...You know, until digging through that list I never noticed how few ship types the FWL Navy has. What are they up to? :brew:
Quite. I spent about 2 hours yesterday to wrap my head around that. Multiple lines of the stuff. Would be way easier to just have an input mask like in your spreadsheet and generate the test from that.
It's worse. Depending on the weapon, there's NAC/20, NAC 20, NAC20, combined with 12NAC/20... yeah, its painful.
2 Naval Gauss Rifle Heavy
2 Naval Gauss Rifle Medium
2 Naval Gauss Rifle Light
24 Naval AC 20
8 Capital Launcher Barracuda
8 Naval Laser 45
8 AC 10
48 Machine Gun (IS)
12 Naval Laser 55is easily digestible.
YES: 1000% yes
Also sorry gang i know most of us are good at posting early: first two weeks back to retail work and ive been dead on my feet. The turn will be up in the next 48 hours guaranteed. It'll be a riot for sure :D
The turn will be up in the next 48 hours guaranteed. It'll be a riot for sure :DNow they're even rioting? But I haven't even conquered them yet. :o
Would anyone find value in me marking up the maps to show capitals and shipyards?
RE: Sheets and Inputs - Jester, if you will tell me what format you want, I'll make sure the entire master sheet shows weapons in that format.
Quite. I spent about 2 hours yesterday to wrap my head around that. Multiple lines of the stuff. Would be way easier to just have an input mask like in your spreadsheet and generate the test from that.
Posted... triple checked everything but if you spot mistakes again let me know... sleep now lol
All hail the GMs. :bow:
I need more chances to use that smiley.
Just checked the last Warship Race for inspiration.
Man, after 6 turns, people were still building ships with AC/5s and standard armour. Those were the days.
Though, honestly, the amount of ship designs per turn seems to have been eerily similar. I wonder if we were more thinking about what worked, then, or what the reasoning was.
I mean, I at least think that our advances in this iteration are almost exclusively down to tech advances and infrastructure upgrades, and rarely (like in the THs case, in a wacky way :D) to react to another power.
So, I wonder: What does actually drive everyone here to introduce a new design?
Fluff considerations obviously do count.
Heads up - because a player lobbied very very hard to do A THING, and because the Great God RNJeebus blessed THE THING, we’re writing one more big battle/event this turn than originally planned. Tentative post date sometime late Sunday or Monday.
Hi all,
My overload level might decline to the point where I could play again in a couple weeks.
What are the houserules in use? More generally, is there a single post somewhere tracking the state of the game? Also, how/who should I play?
What are the houserules in use? More generally, is there a single post somewhere tracking the state of the game? Also, how/who should I play?The rules are all in this thread. The progress of the game is in the "in character" thread, where turns are posted, and the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rIBaiLqUhwppFvoNmXGHpS0HWSVSEuxLY25m-u0uaPc/edit?usp=sharing) which is also linked there.
Edit: I guess I type too slowly. Ninjas, everywhere.
As to what you could play; The Capellan Confederation is currently free, I believe. Also the Rim Worlders and Taurians, if those tickle your fancy more.
I... wouldn't recommend the Taurians, not at least, now... :)Yeah, looks like they poked your bear with predictable consequences.
Eh, the Taurians still exist, and are still the second largest periphery economy.
That rule seems reasonable on the surface for unloading things from shipyards, but Ive never seen 'how long to unload from shipyard' been an issue.
Eh, the Taurians still exist, and are still the second largest periphery economy.
On a different note- The warships sheet is now automagically pulling heavy weapon data from the master sheet. As long as we maintain sanitized inputs (all caps, XXX MNG format (can be any number of numbers), it'll pull the info. If anyone wants to spot check ships and make sure they're showing right numbers? I checked FS and didn't see any issues.Honestly it's just harder to read manually now.
Edit: What do we mean with shipyards? Repair facilities?Yes. In the previous game, I used these, space stations, and dropship tugs to make max thrust 1 "warships".
Love that Matador design, but I can't help but feel "Estoque" would be a better class name (that being the name of a Matador's sword). Also, 35 more Small Lasers (15 Forward, 20 aft) wouldn't be a bad idea given the way fire arcs work. It would be less than 55 tons to make the change (including heat sinks)...
Honestly it's just harder to read manually now.
RE: Missile Ammo - I think it might be worthwhile to look, at least for units with less than 10 rounds per launcher. For now, combat seems decisive fast enough that ammo isn't an issue.. but we haven't really seen pure missile boats, where 'run it out of ammo' might be a tactical choice, and that may change matters.
I wouldn't mind having it pull and sum the firepower of AAA and PDS weaponry, would help me when I'm juggling fighters v ships - just got done crunching a big fight where the defender was eroding fighter firepower while the fighters eroded defender firepower.
One reason I'm doing it as a separate sheet (and supplemental tabs) is to keep the different data views. Clumped together under "heavy weapons" is a good way to get a quick glance at a ship's arms, but if you want to compare 2-3-4 ships together, its not easy at all. Well, to me. Having a sortable list with the various info on it makes it easy for me to compare. And having all that data in one spot lets me cross-reference it in many ways.Ah, no, I mean that the actual shared spreadsheet(where it reads from) weapon list is very hard to read when it's all caps with barely any spaces and no slashes, as well as unusual acronyms.
Edit: I guess I type too slowly. Ninjas, everywhere.
Should I worry? :D
Now THAT was a rollercoaster! :D
Honestly expected the PoR to directly sneak towards New Samarkand. Probably better for the DC they didn't. Still, medals for audacity. Or heroism bordering on stupidity. ;D
I did already ponder contingency plans for the case I couldn't build anything over a size 2.
Significant economic damage, though. Good work. :clap:
And man, the Terran Hegemony got dismembered. ???
Kind of goes to show how bad their original ship designs were in light of newer rules. The CC certainly gouged themselves on that. Maybe they will be the new TH?
Still, with the nasty losses incurred reducing their maintenance load, the TH may well have more money available for new ships than it did before.
I have to admit, that is more action than I expected in a turn. Everyone is kind of at war with everyone. Except the FS, they just nib on the Capellans.
I said might as well get my money’s worth out of the ships.Well, just wrecking the Capital Yards (written in Capitals :o) would have incurred rebuilding costs around 140b?
As Cannonshop has repeatedly pointed out in his fan fiction, the solution to fixed defenses is basic physics: kinetic impactors. They take a long time to set up, but you really can't stop them.
In Cannonshop's defense, he only uses them against truly "fixed" defenses. You're totally right about station keeping drives... they're amazing compared to anything we can do now, in fact.
A question: I’m considering scrapping the remaining Yang Wei and Binzhou. Problem is I’ve got a nine billion repair bill. What’s the order of operations and would I get the ‘full’ scrap price for them (aka %25)?
It's a pretty nifty technology, throwing mass out at twice the speed of light and all.Just to be clear: there's nothing super-luminal going on (special relativity sees to that). And for a mere tenth of a G, you don't even need to exceed matter/anti-matter annihilation efficiency.
Not bad, really. :D
*snip*
You know, that was actually a very successful action for the PoR.
They did more damage than they took.
... so ... if those ships are "scrapped", will they show up in pirate fleets, as well?
Because that's gonna be some serious piracy. xp
Can I found a new periphery nation as a puppet state?
Interesting that a ship being refit is unavailable, while a ship being built is there immediately.
Though I also noticed that pretty much all the action last turn took place in the last 2 years or so.
Edit: Seems like the Hegemony came out stronger from this conflict. Minus the territory lost, of course.
More damage than they took given the price they paid for the ships, yes. Is that still the case if you count the value of what they lost? Should be close...Well, ignoring a potential reduction in economic capacity, the listed costs, required repairs, and force replacements(which are halved to account for maintenance had they not needed replacement), I calculated about 75b in damages, not including the Luthien yards, which would be another 50b. Besides, what something is worth is irrelevant if you get it for less. ;)
SIDE NOTE:
The Terran Hegemony Navy is disposing of the following ships at the following prices:
CL Cruiser x21, 1.865B
SC Bonaventure x28 1.259B
DD Lola x 5 1.663B
BB Dreadnought x1* 2.025B
BC Black Lion x 1 1.751B
These ships are available for sale to PERIPHERY POWERS ONLY.
Players will have first dibs on them, though the periphery powers are mostly NPC right now.
First come first served, claim by posting here. Don't be greedy**
These are scrap prices, so its the largest hulls you will get this cheap pretty much ever. (Also selling at scrap price means I can go ahead and do the TH turn either way - whatever isnt bought is scrapped) Their old designs, but okay. If you have yards large enough to host them, remember that you can refit them into something likely more to your taste, though sadly nothing to be done about the very low Structural Integrity Values. Still, the very, very large cargo spaces allow them to serve as colliers to other warships, or could support conversion to carrier type duties. Lola and Dreadnought specifically jump out at me here.
*It is dropping both from service, but one is being retained as a museum ship.
** The Leadership of the Principality of Rasalhague regrets to inform the Admiralty that they will not be spending another decades budget on yet another fleet to launch like a missile at the DC. Buy a few if you want, but be reasonable. :)
W.r.t. drive efficiency, anything beyond about 80 fuel points per .1% of mass is not fusion, as discussed here (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62855.0). Everything with a strategic drive and more than about 100 tons of mass exceeds this.And as discussed in that other thread, tactical thrust is pretty much OK. Strategic Thrust around the order of 0.1 g is also mostly ok, but 1g+ is right out.
W.r.t. refit costs, swapping armors seems pretty invasive/difficult to me.
I've planned to build a battlecruiser for 2 turns. Last turn, I revised the design, and it was too big again, so I wanted to build it this turn.
But now, the triumphant launch might be a touch diminished given the cost and reduced available budget.
But if I build them next turn, I lose out on a turn of work for my largest yard.
But then, they are more a prestige project, and wouldn't necessarily help in the current situation. Tricky.
... Damn, the new weapon listing is hardly readable.
Why you want to get rid of them, though? They are your only ship that could actually reliably catch pirates operating in your territory.
I've planned to build a battlecruiser for 2 turns. Last turn, I revised the design, and it was too big again, so I wanted to build it this turn.
But now, the triumphant launch might be a touch diminished given the cost and reduced available budget.
But if I build them next turn, I lose out on a turn of work for my largest yard.
But then, they are more a prestige project, and wouldn't necessarily help in the current situation. Tricky.
... Damn, the new weapon listing is hardly readable.
Why you want to get rid of them, though? They are your only ship that could actually reliably catch pirates operating in your territory.
I dont find the weapon list at all hard to read? Maybe my eyes are just used to it, having done the conversion.Maybe it's just me, not being used to shorthands for the missiles - but I find I often recognize words by their structure (as all people in western languages can do), and everything being written in caps without slashes makes it rather samey.
... Damn, the new weapon listing is hardly readable.
Why you want to get rid of them, though? They are your only ship that could actually reliably catch pirates operating in your territory.
In this verse, Nihogi Kurita ascends to the throne in 2388. His rule is, generally, not particularly aggressive (for a Kurita), nor is it particularly competent or incompetent.
This version of Nihongi is... about dead center on all the meters of 'House Kurita', at least in his effect on policy, economics, warmaking, etc. If hes crazy as a monkey on acid in his private time... well, your welcome to creative control on that. :)
I needed one more turn to get where I wanted but... nooooo... stupid war and stuff getting in the way of me making my toys.Wait, what war? The Taurians? That didn't really deal much damage, did it?
This version of Nihongi is... about dead center on all the meters of 'House Kurita', at least in his effect on policy, economics, warmaking, etc. If hes crazy as a monkey on acid in his private time... well, your welcome to creative control on that. :)Well, canonically, he didn't care for the state at all, indirectly resulting in the rise of the von Rohrs.
As long as its consistent, I don't care how we name weapons. If you'd like to change all the existing designs, just let me know how the new format will parse?I wouldn't want something to be changed just for me if everyone else has no problem with it.
off-ship AAA/PDSWhat exactly do you mean by "off-ship"?
I do expect that bearings only will shake things up, especially if it his before AMS systems.
I think that bearings only will take a while to get too. That tech column has too many "filler" slots to buy before getting it.I thought we would just stay with the current tech tree now? ???
I will definitely respond on this cause I do have a few comments.... but later cause i gotta clarify my thoughts a bit... and write them lolIt only took me a few weeks to get to that point. ;D So.... hurry up. ;)
I think that bearings only will take a while to get too. That tech column has too many "filler" slots to buy before getting it.
Yes, there is a lot that mostly goes to 'make ground forces and aerofighters better' in that column. And then it gives you bearings only missiles, cheap yards, teleoperated missiles, Mobile HPGs...
I appreciate the motivation to buy those things. Cheap yards and HPGs are very game changy.
I've been assuming I had to pay for castles so far. But realistically speaking, shouldn't the army pay for that?
I'd totally buy some of those snots ... where exactly is the n? Seems to change every second post - but that would be politically impossible.
It's not overly likely, I would assume. ... Hey, Tyler, quick, there's more ships to buy! ^-^
It only took me a few weeks to get to that point. ;D So.... hurry up. ;)
Edit: I'm really not as negative as all that. Just felt I should sum up my thoughts at some point.
Wait, what war? The Taurians? That didn't really deal much damage, did it?You think the Hedgehogs are gonna take that bloody nose and not do something about it? Or the vultur...houses that joined in? I mean, maybe there's no war, but... lets just say the FS is betting heavily one way.
Assuming this approach (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VF66b6tE_0xl0iV_-eiKPlvLQpxwS2XcEgNR36-gYEM/edit#gid=480007373), could we adopt this for your spreadsheet? Edit: Not the general approach, just the "match for multiple possible wordings" part. Though I think your approach, which I think is generally more professional, would allow for NAC/20 as a writing style.
I mostly would prefer having the slash in NAC and NL names, and maybe write out Missile names (could just check for a part of the name) whenever there is actually space on the ship.
Now, should I decide to scale up an Ikio cruiser to an assault Battleship and install 2 kinds of Lasers, 2 types of missiles, NAC/20s and 40s, all 3 sizes of NGauss, and a mixed flak battery of Gauss Rifles, LRMs, Lasers, with AMS, Small Lasers, and MGs as backup, then shortening them all as much as possible makes sense - and the individual weapon probably won't batter as much. ^^
My turns up. Once again, I have plenty of yard space if people need it, although it seems like their are too many ships being sold to make that likely.
And I don't care if you want to replace the code with your method?Oh, please don't. :))
2) Yes to the armor scale.... I just don't have any idea on how to change it. The previous iteration fighters we're too powerful, this one not enough.I'd prefer just using 20/1, with an extra penalty for fighters against WS. After all, if Dropships have a chance, you can use fighters to murder dropships.
11) All RP games suffer those effects: the ideas of IC knowledge and OOC knowledge. This turn I posted really quickly so the DC and LC could take advantage of that and plan their turns around that: common decency says DONT. My first turn I built flawed designs and RP'ed why they were approved. I do try and cycle and tweak designs based on the previous turns knowledge and experience.Yup. I definitely guessed right what you were planning last turn, but didn't react to it. But doing that multiple times while also building slightly suboptimal designs would take a lot of role-playing.
My turns up :D Whats taking you so long >:D :POh, come on! You copy-pasted part of your fleet doctrine from last turns post.
Oh, please don't. :))Shrug -I- am not going to change it. :) Then I'd have to maintain it, and I have a hard enough time maintaining my own code.
I think your version is far better. This was the first time I tried something like that on Google Drive. I've just linked it as a an example.
What I'd really prefer is if we could keep the / in the NAC and NL names (optionally, ideally) and the option to just write out Barracuda if the weapon line isn't too long already.
... Is there a formatting option to automatically increase the font size if there's space left?
11) All RP games suffer those effects: the ideas of IC knowledge and OOC knowledge. This turn I posted really quickly so the DC and LC could take advantage of that and plan their turns around that: common decency says DONT. My first turn I built flawed designs and RP'ed why they were approved. I do try and cycle and tweak designs based on the previous turns knowledge and experience. Their is a bit of a disadvantage because we can't modify them quickly enough and entire fleet compositions might change in a turn while you're building a counter to the previous fleet. That being said that's also real life. The trick is to try and beat that curve by behind ahead of it and becoming the meta.I've had first/second posts for a turn, if someone wanted to use that info... not much I can do. Lately I've been late in posting cause of work/life issues, but I don't read the IC thread until after I post in it. I don't expect others to do that, but I find it more fun going in blind.
WRT Maintenance - Im considering, if I do this again, simply making maintenance a factor of displacement, with a 250kt ship costing 1/4 the maintenance of a 1MT ship.I've tried calculating that on an updated Kutai and not-yet built battleship design. By reducing the maintenance cost to 40% of value, but adding a million per 1000 tons displacement, the Kutai's maintenance cost was nearly 12% cheaper, while the 1.1mt battleship was 1.5% more expensive to maintain. Meanwhile, the projected battlecruiser (which I've noticed has been delayed long enough it can actually mount new armour now :beer:) with roughly the same weight would be 3% cheaper.
W.r.t. "ASF don't matter"
30 small craft. 100 tons of vehicle bays. 60 per trip. - the CCAF of that era relied on 50 ton tanks.Right, so 6 round trips. This feels a bit high, particularly when you take into account the need to conduct maintenance. It looks feasible although those smallcraft will be really working.
If mothballing says 0, that is an error. 10%The error is here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rIBaiLqUhwppFvoNmXGHpS0HWSVSEuxLY25m-u0uaPc/edit#gid=1453108897) under "Items to Buy" under "Maintenance".
We're not using self-designed small units, so there is no such thing as an ASF with 600+ armour.I understand.
Even if there was, that's quite the investment for something that'll still be one-shot by a single NL/35. Or mid-sized sub-capitals once they come online.An NL/35 weighs 700 tons, so this seems pretty reasonable to me.
But why shoot it; It's a pure Point-Defence design. Yes, it'll do its job, but it not harm warships, and not be any particular danger to the other side's fighter screen, so it can safely be ignoredThere is room for a big stompy weapon like an AC/20 as well. Also, if you want to concede targeting of fighters with Barracuda, that means they can protect their warships throughout combat rather than just in the opening phase---that's great for their utility.
If fighting against stations with plenty of ammo (the only significant sources of missiles atm), it's still not economical. A standard aerospace fighter costs as much as 625 barracudas.I believe you are accounting for the overhead of the ASF, but not for the overhead of the station.
Your earlier point regarding active probes is absolutely valid, though. Fighters can be superb suicide scouts.Some minor weapons to deal with enemy ASF seem ok, if they can be slipped in without substantially increasing mass. Otherwise, I agree---naval weapons are the preferred choice for naval ships.
Such a design would reinforce the actual point, though: A unit being the best counter to itself results in the side that brings more winning, while a heavily armoured fighter would take tremendous amounts of standard scale fire, but still perish by a single capital laser hit - so why mount any small weapons unless the facing is below 20 guns and the ship has little, but some, spare weight?
Don't forget every single fighter can carry a nuke, the great equalizer.
I believe you are accounting for the overhead of the ASF, but not for the overhead of the station.Actually, just for the fighter vs. missile ammunition. A single missile is 8000, a fighter is 5m. The fighter costs maintenance, the missile doesn't (unless you shoot 50% of them every turn).
Otherwise, I agree---naval weapons are the preferred choice for naval ships.I don't actually have a problem with that, but that sounds a little too pointed for my tastes. ;)
Actually, just for the fighter vs. missile ammunition. A single missile is 8000, a fighter is 5m. The fighter costs maintenance, the missile doesn't (unless you shoot 50% of them every turn).A bare missile launcher has no value though---it only functions in the context of deployment on some platform.
I don't actually have a problem with that, but that sounds a little too pointed for my tastes. ;)I see what you're saying.
The maintenance approach sounds sensible to me. Maybe add it to the master spreadsheet when mothballing is fixed.
| Terran Hegemony | -48 b |
| Draconis Combine | -17.5 b |
| Federated Suns | +12 b |
| Capellan Confederation | +14 b |
| Free Worlds League | +9.5 b |
| Lyran Commonwealth | +39.5 b |
Done. Also codified rules for decay rates at below-mothballs maintenance, and for their impact on scrap values. Most of which we will likely never use, but good to have.Is the decay value 2%/turn or 20%/turn? The writeup says the first but argues the second.
Is the decay value 2%/turn or 20%/turn? The writeup says the first but argues the second.
W.r.t. mothballs, I don't see a game problem with mothballs being cheap. They were free last game, and not used that much.
I dunno. The raid by the PoR did around 140b in damages, as far as I can tell, and required nearly the entire fleet (built with 3x the budget) to put down, and as far as I can tell from my non-GM seat, it not being a full success was down to dice rolls. Ultimately, we can not stop an enemy from just appearing in a system of their choosing, so the best defence would be to make sure they don't choose that system.
Of course, stations are the more obvious application, but those have a running cost.
In fact, it seems to me that doing deep strikes at nothing in particular may be a way to go. You'll cause a lot of economic damage while avoiding most opposition, as such opposition can't afford to leave the actually valuable stuff undefended.
But 'enemy capabilities and intentions' is a game that everyone always plays, but one that noone reliably wins.True. I guess my intuition was a lot more accurate than that admiral's. I figured the capital was the one obvious target, and was kind of surprised they went for a publicity tour first.
Nuclear-driven Asteroids? :D
Or boring sabotage? Ah, anyways, you have my full support. Rhetorically, I'm not actually going to do anything. True. I guess my intuition was a lot more accurate than that admiral's. I figured the capital was the one obvious target, and was kind of surprised they went for a publicity tour first.
That said; will you always tell the enemy where you are?
I would assume not every system you jump into has a jumpship ready to move out at a moments notice.
... of course, once HPG is a thing, anything but a needle strike will basically make the defender omniscient.
So, assuming the difference stays, should I use my own calculus or the shared sheet to create a graph of the development of our race for posterity?
1,176x Fighters (Mostly heavier designs): 5.600To put no finer point to it: At a glance, that seems wrong. 6x5 never ends in a multiple of 100.
I suppose I could just do that.
Because the numbers in our shared rare sheet don't always add up.
Of course, switching from those would result in a small hick-up.
To put no finer point to it: At a glance, that seems wrong. 6x5 never ends in a multiple of 100.
CC Turn 5 is up. There is an appendix that I'll try to send to the GMs later today and I plan to add a few details when I get a chance to run the equations and make the maps.
Can someone-not-me check that the links to the designs work?
Seems to work for me,Great.
Just an FYI only space stations can mount more then a single repair bay.This was changed in the errata here (https://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Tactical-Operations-2019-12-06-v3.03.pdf), page 65.
And having access to fero-aluminium armor doesn't mean that we have light or heavy.Oh? In the last game, I believe it did?
But it doesn't matter since Fighters and dropships are all standardized.Yep, I know. Do we have a reference to a standard design?
Also hundreds of small lasers will have diminishing returns when it comes to point defense.That depends on how many missiles are incoming :)
Looks like the CC did another 180 and now refits their ships to do what the ships they just sold did. :DYeah, I wanted something concrete for the upthread discussion about alternates to the 4 corner design. The nose-only approach has quite a bit going for it in a fleet battle since you get more firepower and armor on point. Obviously, it entirely lacks the ability to 'roll sides' and it's a little bit easier to hit (+1 penalty vs. +2 penalty), but in a fleet engagement the former doesn't matter with concentration of fire while the latter is typically not as big an effect as the significant firepower and somewhat significant armor increases. The other big advantage for the nose-only design is that you free up lots of arcs for things like anti-fighter weaponry.
******.... nice turn UnlimitedThank you. :) You already pulled a nice trick last turn, don't feel pressured on my behalf.
Yeah, I wanted something concrete for the upthread discussion about alternates to the 4 corner design.I noticed. :)
At first I thought "That's disgusting!", but then I noticed the obvious intent. Though it kind of also plays into my point that I'd like weapons total per arc limited.I'm not sure limiting weapons/arc matters that much. With capital weapons, you typically don't exceed the maximum much. With non-capital weapons, a hard cap would give more motivation for every ship to be a carrier.
A disadvantage of the nose-heavy approach is that you can't fight without closing with the enemy. So if you have an enemy sporting mostly NAC boats with equal speed to your ships, you can run away or go into melee.The broadside approach suffers from the same issue. To keep you enemy in the 60 degree angle afforded by the broadside, your vector can be at most 30 degrees away and SIN(30) is about .17, so with a thrust of 4/6, you might be able to accelerate by .17*6 ~= 1 away. Any opponent more capable than a station can match that. With a 4 corner design you can of course just use an aft-side arc, but then you've divided your weapons load by 4 which is very poor.
Do your combat stations have no Grav decks?Right. They are defense stations so crews typically rotate planet-side and back, or at least aboard a ship with a grav deck.
And having access to fero-aluminium armor doesn't mean that we have light or heavy.I updated the Dire Bear to use FA instead of HFA. Sadly, this means it will overheat by 3 when firing all forward facing weapons. On the upside, it means you can cram in two more small lasers for even more capital missile crunching and it's a bit cheaper.
The broadside approach suffers from the same issue. ...Ah, sure, you can't really run away. But you don't have to close, either. Say, the hypothetical case of attacking NAC-armed stations. Not that those really exist.
Ah, sure, you can't really run away. But you don't have to close, either. Say, the hypothetical case of attacking NAC-armed stations. Not that those really exist.If we are in physics land, you can move forward with an infinitesimal velocity. If we are in BT rules, then your minimum forward velocity is '1'. Either way, since most combats are over in less than 10 minutes, either you or the stations will be dead before you close to NAC range.
And diving into melee isn't always what we want.I agree. It's possible to use either an aft or nose arc with the side hit location table since there is a 30 degree overlap between the side hit location and the arc fire. This isn't that useful for the nose approach because you might just prefer more armor on the nose. But if you load up on weapons in the aft arc and then use the side hit location table it becomes more compelling since it's a +2 to hit penalty. Also, you can vector away more than is possible in the broadside arc.
Do we actually have a K-F Adapter in our spreadsheet?Space Stations can generally be built on-site, but I've arranged for anything that I want to transport to be under 100K so the Sailor's Mercy can stick it in a "Naval Repair Unpressurized" bay and jump with it.
I've been wondering how I would actually deploy stations to my non-yard systems, and there was the recent discussion in "travelling the Milky Way", so I looked it up, and I noted I can't actually find the respective equipment in our sheet.
But, as far as I can tell/interpret the rules (and the coverage is somewhat sketchy), those function through integrated collars, aka are not internal, and as such would require a station with a K-F adapter (raising the cost multiplier to 20x). But I can't find that in our spreadsheet.In TacOps I see: "Jumpships or Warships with repair facilities may jump while the facilities contain non-jump capable vessels, however, as these systems incorporate K-F drive booms." so the stations need nothing special.
The advent of the KF-boom for DropShips finally removed the weight limits imposed by internally-carried DropShuttles for interstellar voyages, and—in conjunction with the modern docking collars—paved the way for larger DropShips. This same technology, in the form of the space station KF adapter, also enabled an equally rapid deployment of space stations across the Inner Sphere. ...So I assume it just has a different name, but isn't automatically included.
Well, I read it as the K-F Adapter being the station's equivalent to a K-F Boom. My interpretation stems from p.105 IO:So I assume it just has a different name, but isn't automatically included.My interpretation is that K-F Adapter and K-F boom do the same thing, it's just that K-F adapter is for a space station while K-F boom is for a dropship. Both of these technologies enable the K-F field to envelop a docked craft and transport via jump.
I mean, why would it exist as an equipment option if the effect of it's use is integral to the parent entity no matter what?
??? Then why would stations over 100k ever have them, even though it is apparently assumed that they do?My version of IO says that you can only use a KF-adaptor on a station that weighs 100K or less tons or on a larger station which is built as "modular".
Also, where can I read the part about repair facilities being able to jump with a drop shuttle?That's just a logical conclusion as far as I know. Able to carry space station => able to carry objects with no special KF-thingy => able to carry dropshuttle.
I mean, the bays carry things through their integrated collars, after all.There's two definition of 'collar'. One is the ability to dock with a large craft. The other is the ability to transport through space.
My version of IO says that you can only use a KF-adaptor on a station that weighs 100K or less tons or on a larger station which is built as "modular".Don't think they differ much - a modular station is just split into multiple parts, each of which can mass up to 100k and always uses a K-F Adapter (because why would you build it modular if you didn't want to transport it).
That's just a logical conclusion as far as I know. Able to carry space station => able to carry objects with no special KF-thingy => able to carry dropshuttle.The way I read it, they are not able to carry anything without a boom or adapter,
"as these systems incorporate K-F drive booms"hinting at that they are compatible with vessels meant to fit collars. After all, it has been written that a jump-compatible dropship may not be carried internally (though the reasoning was a bit.... well).
Until the advent of the KF Boom and the corresponding “postboom” collars, DropShips weighing more than 5,000 tons could not be transported through hyperspace by any means other than as dismantled cargo. Even if the vessel possesses a naval repair facility of sufficient capacity, vessels carried within would still require a KF boom to enable transition through hyperspace.
Efforts to jump while docked with a vessel that lacks a KF boom will automatically abort the procedure
There's two definition of 'collar'. One is the ability to dock with a large craft. The other is the ability to transport through space.It was my understanding that any modern collar (which we use in our ruleset) would include the "jump-ability".
Note, however that some rules options available to large craft will be unavailable until the advent of suitable technologies during the "Primitive" period. These include the following: ... Even if the vessel possesses a naval repair facility of sufficient capacity, vessels carried within would still require a KF boom to enable transition through hyperspace. Efforts to jump while docked with a vessel that lacks a KF boom will automatically abort the procedure.So, you are absolutely right with primitives and this confirms that with nonprimitives the limitation does not apply.
It was my understanding that any modern collar (which we use in our ruleset) would include the "jump-ability".Space Stations can have a Docking Collar.
...Docking Collar... Available To: ...SS...My understanding is that if a space station is missing a docking collar, then large craft can't really dock with it.
The thing that (to my mind) keeps 1-arc from being the obvious to only choice is the scaling issues (as ships get larger, Fire Control issues with 1-arc boats climbs and climbs, though I doubt it ever climbs enough to counteract the advantage of not splitting your mounts), combined with flexibility issues (if nose must point at opponent to engage opponent, ability to maneuver and fire is somewhat constrained) and the much less generous nose critical table (lots of ways to get your ship crippled on nose, compared to broadsides).W.r.t. criticals, if a fleet-to-fleet combat is all about how many warships die in a turn, criticals matter much less.
some rules options available to large craft will be unavailable until the advent of suitable technologies, to me, at least, does not mean that they automatically have it after wards.
Yes, space stations can have plenty of docking collars. However, those are not automatically of the jump-supporting variety.Right: docking collar is not equivalent to jump capacity.
, to me, at least, does not mean that they automatically have it after wards.It's a big editing no-no to reiterate existing rules as a rules change under some condition (i.e. primitive status). An editing error can't be ruled out though, so please go ahead and ask the devs.
Nor does it read that once dropships with K-F Boom collars are available, Repair facilities can suddenly transport vessels without them.The Tacops text says that the K-F booms are integrated into repair facilities. My understanding is that as soon as that happens, anything inside the repair facility without a KF-core can jump.
From what I read, you disagree with either point 4 or 5?With both actually.
The Tacops text says that the K-F booms are integrated into repair facilities. My understanding is that as soon as that happens, anything inside the repair facility without a KF-core can jump.Ah, ambivalent grammar. I read it as the assumption that the unit inside is assumed to have a K-F Boom.
Rumors have reached Illyria that the Marians are purchasing older Terran Hulls, but the pair of Cruisers or Lolas the Marians could afford do not concern the Palatinate Navy.
Second Part of Lyran turn fiction is up.
Tomorrow a veritable TRO is going up.
More than I posted this turn? Woof, that's gonna be a lot of designs.
Question for the masses....
So I just thought if this: a variant costs for R+D 10% of the ship cost, can’t be a change of more than 20K tonnage and 10 SI between the two.
For example the Lola I is 680K and 50 SI. Variant A can then be 700K and 60 SI.
Can Variant B then become 720K and 70 SI? Can this be done on the same turn as long as the R+D costs are paid? How many times could one do this per turn (assuming you had the money for such research). Does a variant have to built or can it simply be theoretical?
Thoughts while I’m driven crazy at work and trying to ignore the crazy customers.
... So I just thought if this: a variant costs for R+D 10% of the ship cost, can’t be a change of more than 20K tonnage and 10 SI between the two.I've thought about this. No infinite chains for the same cost, of course, but you could potentially make a "double variant" per the rules and a new ship design close to an existing one for just 21% prototype cost.
For example the Lola I is 680K and 50 SI. Variant A can then be 700K and 60 SI.
Can Variant B then become 720K and 70 SI? ...
Conundrum I have is : Why is it called a Double U when it's clearly twin V's? ( w )Because u and v were originally the same letter, I assume.
True about that.Why not just say "The army will take over running the ships."? In the game, the budget will get divided between the naval part of the army and the navy. You can setup whatever constraint you want on how the overall budget is subdivided.
Though my driving force in this regard is actually that the DC military, on the Navy side, is sort of inspired by the imperial Japanese Navy - and during that time, their Army actually had their own light carriers.
But I suppose a simplification of proceedings in the context of our game makes sense, so I guess I'll keep them. Until I build something bigger, of course.
Well, I'm just running the navy side.If you think of yourself as "running the ships" rather than "running the navy", I believe you have all the flexibility needed.
Think of it as 'being responsible for design work and budget for things that move in space or directly implicate things in space (like HPGs and Castles)'??? But then I'd also be responsible for army dropships, and I can assure you I'm not.
While you can build ground forces if you want, they are largely irrelevant to this game.I know---I just threw it in while waiting for the turn to finish. The Messmaker design is a fun one in my experience as it's quite good at open field combat. Close quarters combat or any situation where you can't afford "accidentally" destroying everything in the battlezone are another story.
I think we should actually agree on what spreadsheet we now use.
I think it is relevant we all use the same system here.I agree.
I think that we should use MML 0.475 because it is what I have been using and I have double built a number of units and the numbers match when I've checked.I thought we decided to not do that? ???
I thought we decided to not do that? ???
It does, for one, require us to allocate ammo to every facing and I believe also forces at least 10 rounds per gun?
It also is a serious hassle if mounting large groups of guns - installing, say, 90 barracuda tubes with 5 rounds of ammo each is way more comfortable in the spreadsheet.
Though MML has come around nicely in recent years and certainly is an easy and quick way to do new ships.
It seems to me that we either change to the corrected rule (and redesign everything we already have) or leave as was (with quarters not being free).I was imagining something like "change to the correct rule and use that for new designs", so no additional work is required. Fluff-wise, this could be about new building techniques and standards.
Im inclined to the ‘not redesign literally everything’ approach, but if people really think it will make a huge difference, I could be talked around
Let me put it this way, I'm not prepared to fight with Google sheets to build ships unless the other options have a measurable discrepancy in cost.How does your version of MML handle quarters costs? Is it 5K each (before multiplier)?
It does, still, occasionally crash or bug out, but that, too, has recently been reduced notably (in my opinion)
Regarding the spreadsheet output, I personally don't see the problem, but an easy solution could be to just have it all above each other - then it'd only be 1 C&P.
A Quality of Life feature for the spreadsheet would be to automatically mirror the side locations.
Which leads me to a sub-question: What would we need to change to support dropships in the spreadsheet? Just the cost-multiplier and standard armour? Well, and obviously fire-control limits.
If all quarters are free, we might as well just delete them from out considerations - I certainly would give 1st class for everyone unless it was assured to make absolutely no difference, and ignore that part completely if that was the case.The relative sizes of quarters impose a real variation in costs. For example, I suspect the troopers on your invasion transport will likely not be upgraded to first class quarters since the bulk tonnage required is to great. This isn't a direct cost, but given that you need two transports to move the same number of troops in first class as steerage, cost certainly comes into play and is typically quite significant. I know zero rules about the relative performance of personnel in 1st/2nd/steerage quarters, so the decision to provide one or the other is a relatively arbitrary choice as far as BT is concerned.
The relative sizes of quarters impose a real variation in costs. For example, I suspect the troopers on your invasion transport will likely not be upgraded to first class quarters since the bulk tonnage required is to great.
I personally dislike that change, as that means there's no point in not installing first class quarters for the crew on every vessel, and for most passengers unless it's a troop transport.
1.) Spreadsheets - just so its clear to me, according to the rules you found, despite things like quarters having a cost, they actually DONT have a cost? Does this 'gold plated toilets are free' rule apply to all space things, or just space stations? Help me understand the dimensions of the change this would make, and I'll try to have a succinct answer on how we want to deal with it.
2.) The more time I spend in this design space, the more I become convinced we are trying to make a silk purse out of rules that amount to a sow's ear.
3.) Next turn work is dragging - Smegish and I are both struggling with some writer's block, as well as (at least in my case) an ongoing attack of Real Life. Hope to have all done by the end of this coming weekend. Im also noting the length of this one as opposed to the last one, and wondering if there is a burnout factor around 6 turns processed. :(. Nonetheless, its my intention to soldier on for so long as I can.
1.) Spreadsheets - just so its clear to me, according to the rules you found, despite things like quarters having a cost, they actually DONT have a cost? Does this 'gold plated toilets are free' rule apply to all space things, or just space stations? Help me understand the dimensions of the change this would make, and I'll try to have a succinct answer on how we want to deal with it.It appears (pure conjecture following) that in an effort to make troop dropships feasible despite their horrific x28 cost multiplier on everything (/guess), tptb have removed quarters costs from all advanced aerospace units. Which, indeed, can mean goldplated toilets for everyone besides ground infantry. It does, admittedly, not have a massive effect on the cost of warships, courtesy of their jump drive taking care of that.
2.) The more time I spend in this design space, the more I become convinced we are trying to make a silk purse out of rules that amount to a sow's ear.::) Well, yeah. Hence I asked for some more house rules in the past. ;D The sow is still attached, though.
It appears (pure conjecture following) that in an effort to make troop dropships feasible despite their horrific x28 cost multiplier on everything (/guess), tptb have removed quarters costs from all advanced aerospace units. Which, indeed, can mean goldplated toilets for everyone besides ground infantry. It does, admittedly, not have a massive effect on the cost of warships, courtesy of their jump drive taking care of that.
Im starting to think playing by the rules as written generates things that look NOTHING like the ships that are 'supposed' to have been produced by navies operating under the constraints suggested by the rules.Not trying to be snarky here, but... you notice that now? :P
So, it is a rule, created to solve a problem made by another rule, which was created to solve a problem...Beautifully said. ;D
I would suggest before anyone else starts another one of these a long and jaundiced look be taken at almost all of the rules, especially ship costs - because Im starting to think playing by the rules as written generates things that look NOTHING like the ships that are 'supposed' to have been produced by navies operating under the constraints suggested by the rules.Indeed.
Provisional Ruling: When possible, use the most updated version of the spreadsheet for newest designs. Older designs can remain on older spreadsheets, or be updated as you see fit. If Gold Toilets are free, so be it. If this makes space stations even more absurdly cheap, so be it (stop cheering, Lagrange, I can hear you from here. :) )Actually, it's more expensive. I found and fixed two more bugs---the sheet was not taking into account bay personnel (which it should be) for the purpose of calculating life support and the sheet was taking into account the cost of infantry bays (when it should not). The newest bugfix version is here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11SbQ3R1b_P44yznQEmPfc7XHKWc8aELd_TuN-HL3_QM/edit?usp=sharing). Can you update the first post link?
Can you update the first post link?
I'm also happy to help with the turn.
If I want to seat bay personell in quarters, how would I do that? Manually reduce the quantity? Also, now that I think about it, using small craft bays for fighters causes another 3 men to automatically be added to the bay. I should probably abolish this practice. :))You can use cargo to ship things and quarters to ship people. The disadvantage of cargo is that things need to be readied for deployment, but this doesn't take to long if you have sufficient tech teams available.
I ... don't think I understand. Could you clarify what you mean?The rules don't allow you to avoid paying life support for Bay Personnel, although the costs are trivial on warships. For the Kuan Yin, which is a troop cruiser amongst other things, the cost is <1%.
As to what I mean, a small craft bay requires a crew of 5 per "small craft". Which incurs life support cost (well, it currently doesn't). Kind of questionable, if you ask me, given that the small craft may well include quarters. Now, I house ASF in those bays, with extra room for spares and all, but those obviously only require a crew of 2 - pilot and mechanic. Maybe 3 if I really want a benefit of it. If I want to house one of them in a regular quarter on the ship, to improve crew quality and morale, then that drops to one or two.
So how would I reduce the "Bay personell" if that is indeed a cause for running costs based on an assumption I know is incorrect?
Example: My Battlecruiser has 240 "Bay Personell", and I also allocate an extra standard crew quarter for every 5 of them. The bays are meant to house 12 Small Craft and 36 Asf, so a standard arrangement would save 108 bay personell and 48 standard quarters. I never considered it before, and the costs are probably negligible, but paying a running cost for non-existent crew rubs me.
| side/nose fraction | 1/0 | 0.5/0.5 | 0/1 |
| nose armor fraction | 0.028 | 0.319 | 0.611 |
| fore side armor fraction | 0.194 | 0.194 | 0.194 |
| aft side armor fraction | 0.25 | 0.125 | 0 |
| aft armor fraction | 0.083 | 0.042 | 0 |
I think that you are overthinking this game.Oh, I know I'm overthinking it :)
Just checking: the Terran Hegemony budget isn't a typo? (They grew by 89B = 13.5%?)
Terrans precious leadership was stifling the naval budget, similar to how the US Congress did prior to WW1. New leadership is throwing money at the navy. This is also why some other nations got big boosts to budgets
Terrans precious leadership was stifling the naval budget, similar to how the US Congress did prior to WW1. New leadership is throwing money at the navy. This is also why some other nations got big boosts to budgetsAnd how the DC is currently stiffled with that.
All I can say is someone is going to die this turn... wonder who?Well, the CC is enjoying some prime real estate in Terra Firma which is in commuting distance of Terra using their fancy new LF batteries... What could possibly go wrong?
Sold! 3 Pallada II left on the market!
Also on sale: Yi Bai in lots of 5. The same great missile action as the Shao Bing at Aldebaran, except with 100 missiles instead of 4! The combination of ultra-low upkeep and overwhelming warship destroying missile storms can't be beat! A modest investment here makes your yards the hard target they absolutely should be ;)
The United Hindu Collective bids $8B for the other 3 ships.Sold!
Lot's of five each so grand total 500 Million per lot? I'll have to let you know about that. I might pick some upThe Capellan Confederation wants to offload a few so smaller offers will be entertained...
MH bids 2.125 B for all 5 YI Bai...Err... as much as the Capellan Confederation wants to say "SOLD!" it seems important to note that individual Yi Bai cost just over 100M and that there 500 of them ???
TT
Stupid autocorrect... I want 5 lots... not just 5 ea. 2.125 B for 25 total... looking forward to reverse engineering them. Fluff thing...Sold! Delivery at Alphard?
TT :thumbsup:
I think I’m looking to buy 20 from the CC: I’ll have to double check my numbers but pencil me in for that.That's quite doable. Delivery to Rasalhague?
How are those totally inconspicuous stations going to pass the FWL? ^-^To be revealed in the CC turn ...
Also, I have a question: Who's actually working/sleeping in the small craft bays? Because it isn't the crew. Does a small craft need 5 Hangar personell?I believe some of them are supposed to be techs, in the same sense as for ASF bays.
Is there anyone right now who isn't renting out yards?*raises hand*
I think I’m looking to buy 20 from the CC: I’ll have to double check my numbers but pencil me in for that.Sold! Delivery at Rasalhague? Or some at New Oslo as well?
The Illyrian Palatinate would be interested, but has doubts of your ability to deliver past the FWL and possible Marian blockade.Perhaps a production license instead?The Capellan Confederation would prefer to simply deliver them, and has a plan for success. How many are desired?
...So, a general suggestion, maybe for now or next iteration:
Small craft, however, have their own crew quarters, so the crew is most definitely not sleeping on the floor in those bays.
...
*raises hand*Now why is that? Have you not built enough ships?
They would like 30, but again would prefer a production license to avoid being reliant on you to supply spare partsSold! Delivery at Illyria? As far as a license, let's throw that in as well. No cost for spare parts and (say) 1M per new Yi Bai.
So, a general suggestion, maybe for now or next iteration:My belief here is that the number of bay personnel is a bit excessive, but that doesn't seem to matter much.
In light of the above, why not simply assume small craft bays have 2 men lounging around in the bays?
That's the full complement for a fighter bay, and gives room for a tech or two, while not letting you pay double for the crew.
Now why is that? Have you not built enough ships?
Man, Tyler, you have some of the richest worlds in the sphere. Just look at your budget compared to your planets. :bow:
See with a Successor State. I would have invested in tech every turn all three if possible. I would have tried to make a decent jack-of-all trades fleet, and upgrade at least half every turn with better tech.
With the PoR i have to choose carefully techs and design ships that would last several turns with minimal upgrades because I simply dont have the money
Lagrange: I do not get your placement of Naval Grade Weaponry in the Aft Side Arcs. The Lie Ren, a 1.25 kiloton vessel has only the aft side arcs with capital weapons. Even describing the maneuvers it seems like such an odd idea and concept I wonder how it would even work.The aft-side arcs overlap with almost the entire broad-side arc, so anything that you can do with a broad-side can be done with an aft-side. In addition, the pair of aft-side arcs (together), cover almost the entire aft arc, so you can thrust 175 degrees away from an opponent and keep shooting at them. In contrast, a 4-corner design loses half of it's firepower when thrusting away from an opponent.
Now this is not criticism but just confusion (mass confusion) so please educate me on how this bizarre strategy is even considered.
Given we already have fluid and continuous space, maybe we should just use actual 90° angles on most things. It is a rather strange academia.It doesn't matter much if you are squirreling around at 50+ hexes away since the further you are away the more exact aft-side = aft + broad-side becomes.
Not that I personally mind, but it's rather hard to bring the point across.
It was, at first, my impression that the GMs are getting worn out a little. ;)
Anyways....... long story short can anyone recommend some good upgrades for my Hund-II design to give it more teeth. Advice, maybe a variant like a big single Naval Gauss Carrier or something.
No rush with your turns for now. Marcus is still finding his inspiration again. I found mine for now so am trying to write stuff while it's there.Were you two responsible for different ends of the universe or something?
I’ll consider all the advice, except maybe Unlimited: his advice could be leaked information on behalf of the DCMS Intelligence Division to destroy my fleet from bad technical information ;)Comrade, I am offended. I have no ulterior motives. I want the best possible hardware when I take over. 8)
Comrade, I am offended. I have no ulterior motives. I want the best possible hardware when I take over. 8)
Another question: for PDS and AA roles are Small Lasers actually better or worse than MG's?There isn't an easy answer here.
Were you two responsible for different ends of the universe or something?
And can we help the search in any way?
Also, a question of fluff: Are we influential on the developments in our nation, who lives/dies/gets constipated, or is that firmly in the realm of the GM?
Marcus and I have a system for generating the leaders of each nation and a basic description of their mood/skill. ...Fascinating. So canon history has really no connection to it.
GermanSumo I did, and you can have the job if you want it. Your timing isn't great though, they're probably about to be kicked in the teeth again.
The United Hindu Collective is the most likely to kick off the fight after their investigation into the events of last turn, and they are a GM-run NPC atm, like the Taurians.gosh.... i didnt see that coming. could we communicate in person to talk about my turn and how it might affect whats coming?
I gather that you want to play the TC? The strategic situation there is quite difficult.
Maybe the Rim Worlds League instead? Twice the resources and an alliance with PoR which makes the strategic situation much better?
Is there a Gladius-B-A1 design specified somewhere?
Okay... one more silly question from a game standpoint: do I really need PPC's or AC/10's?
The number and TRO portion of my turn are up.
I generally figure about 2500/per 250meter grav deck based on scaling (proportional to radius^2) and canon designs. Impressively, the Skeggøx would need 19 grav decks at that rate. More generally, do we have an estimate of how many regiments defend the typical world?
Also, is the plan for getting mechs from orbit to ground and back via dropships carried in on jumpships?
That or using the small craft, they can't have proper mech bays but 100 tons of cargo on a 200 ton craft is pretty easy.I find myself avoiding the use of mechs simply because it's expensive to support them on the ground (dropship + collar cost) and awkward to lift them into orbit for routine maintenance/repair.
Planetary defences of Ye Average Colony that isn't in the arse end of nowhere is likely to be in the range of a FedCom RCT (2-3 Armour Regiments, 3-5 Infantry plus aero and arty), minus the mech regiment and probably with the Aero contingent being full of conventional air-breathers, unless you have enough spare fighters to go around of course. More important worlds (like capitals or those with shipyards in them for example) will of course be better defended, and new colonies (less than 3 decades old say) will probably have less.Thanks, that's helpful. The Skeggøx looks like an invade-the-capital transport.
Planetary defences of Ye Average Colony that isn't in the arse end of nowhere
Thanks, that's helpful. The Skeggøx looks like an invade-the-capital transport.
The Skeggøx looks like an invade-the-capital transport.
and im very afraid i know who it will be tested on :o :o :o :o
Thanks I decided that the LC was going to focus on force projection for a little bit now that there are so many design choices.It looks like you have about 3 weeks worth of consumables when fully loaded, so the logistics could be nontrivial.
hey guys... my first attribution to the Warship race has been posted in the other thread. I hope, you like my unique style. I am not good at technicals, i am a foreign speaker... i try to make an atmospheric story out of what is happening. If you overwhelmingly feel bothered by it, please tell. And again... forgive my wording and text. I will try to keep it in the best english that i am capable off.
My doctrines are soon to come and they will be in this style as well. I hope, this is alright.
And lastly... i have no idea how to handle TRO sections yet. Maybe the good persons who will design my wishes for ships will write something or van Farch will comment on their capabilities in some way... i dunno yet. But i will do my best to keep it coming and hope, you will bear with your crazy german.
Hendrik
hey guys... my first attribution to the Warship race has been posted in the other thread. I hope, you like my unique style. I am not good at technicals, i am a foreign speaker... i try to make an atmospheric story out of what is happening. If you overwhelmingly feel bothered by it, please tell. And again... forgive my wording and text. I will try to keep it in the best english that i am capable off.
My doctrines are soon to come and they will be in this style as well. I hope, this is alright.
And lastly... i have no idea how to handle TRO sections yet. Maybe the good persons who will design my wishes for ships will write something or van Farch will comment on their capabilities in some way... i dunno yet. But i will do my best to keep it coming and hope, you will bear with your crazy german.
Hendrik
It looks like you have about 3 weeks worth of consumables when fully loaded, so the logistics could be nontrivial.
Where can I find the rules on consumables?SO, page 155. The bay personnel consume 1 ton every 20 days. (Quarters burn through consumables at 1 ton every 200 days.)
SO, page 155. The bay personnel consume 1 ton every 20 days. (Quarters burn through consumables at 1 ton every 200 days.)
Hopefully the page 155 you are referencing has been brought into line with this: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=140.0
Thankfully those rules refer to using cargo bays to hold people and not the rules for quarters or infantry bays.Yeah, that isn't relevant here, but no my version of SO doesn't have the errata, so good to know.
That's the semantic distinction I'm going to argue.
Thankfully those rules refer to using cargo bays to hold people and not the rules for quarters or infantry bays.Glad to know we're all on the same page! :thumbsup:
That's the semantic distinction I'm going to argue.
hey kindalas... did you receive my private message on the forum? or do i need to approach this topic in an official manner via the GMs? ^-^
Eh. I for one like the THs existence. Reduces the amount of hostile borders.
And you can ask the GMs if they want to do a peace conference.
I'll research AR-10s, Medium Dropships, and XL-Fusion (as already put into the spreadsheet), upgrade a midway yard from 2 to 3, build another battlecruiser and a battleship based on it, 15 new castles, and probably a few more fighters. Details in the in-character thread soon.
Sorry guys: been a bit out of it personally. Got some personal issues and they’re preventing me from completing my turn, even if its mostly the fluff. I might end up posting bullet points of fluff and turn data to at least get it out there.
Posted Marian turn, he couldn't afford to build anything after paying off the colony debt.Hmm, what happens to the Yi Bai they purchased?
May change how that is handled in future...
these should be all turns except the 500 lb gorilla, right?I believe so. Is there a plan for the gorilla?
There is, and it's 95% done.
In other news, Marcus is no longer working on this project due to personal reasons, leaving me to carry on. If the earlier offer of writing up battle reports is still on the table I'll take people up on it.
so the gorilla planned its move. flexing its muscle ;D ;D
i like those stations. i wonder if they or my station mix is more effective and if the big blue bullie to my south will test them
It will certainly be interesting given the navies are so structurally different.
My estimate is that at the end of this decade, the TH navy will be able to fight any two IS powers including the CC or any 3 not including the CC to a standstill in an all-up close-combat battle of warships vs. warships. At the same time, the details matter as there isn't a single light naval gauss (with its 1000km range) in the entire TH fleet and the TH fleet lacks good invasion transports (other than the 2 Typhoons). The CC warfleet (and stations) are designed to exploit both of these weaknesses.
i assume this is just their first buildup. back to be able to defend themselves... THEN build something for agressive action.I expect otherwise given an aggressive leader who has greatly expanded the naval budget and an admiral declaring the buildup "just about complete".
It will certainly be interesting given the navies are so structurally different.
My estimate is that at the end of this decade, the TH navy will be able to fight any two IS powers including the CC or any 3 not including the CC to a standstill in an all-up close-combat battle of warships vs. warships. At the same time, the details matter as there isn't a single light naval gauss (with its 1000km range) in the entire TH fleet and the TH fleet lacks good invasion transports (other than the 2 Typhoons). The CC warfleet (and stations) are designed to exploit both of these weaknesses.
I expect otherwise given an aggressive leader who has greatly expanded the naval budget and an admiral declaring the buildup "just about complete".
That range advantage is pretty small, and at that kind of extreme range you might hit once from each 15 gun volley from the Lie Ren, which you only have 2 of. The other ships don't pack enough LNG's to worry about.Yeah, the Lie Ren's odds of hitting are quite low at extreme range, but it can sustain combat for a long time before it must withdraw to resupply. For example, at one hit/minute, that's 900 damage/hour. Over the 24 hour combat endurance of the Lie Ren, that's 21600 capital damage, enough to maul one of the TH fleets. It's a different kind of combat, something that we haven't seen yet in either game as far as I recall.
Trying to make them exciting and with smart naval leaders.I finished Gienah. Both sides made smart choices all the way through...
So I just found this thread. (Marcus sent me a PM on another forum back in March, and I just happened to notice it now)Smegish is running this, but my understanding is that battles involving the Taurians have occurred(?) and have not been posted yet.
I haven't had time to go through everything yet, but I think I like most of the changes I've seen so far. Balancing the budgets more than I did might be "less realistic", but I'd wager it's been more fun.
If i wanted to take over the Taurians, how long would it be until I needed to get my turn submitted?
Alright. If the turn is being written, I'll jump in for next turn. Gives me time to catch up on everything too.
welcome, alsadius. which realm will be yours? uhc?
anyway, warm greetings from the rim world republic and me :)) :))
TC. I want a navy. The UHC was mildly amusing as a NPC realm for me last time, because they were so different, but I could scratch my fleet-building itch with the Terran Hegemony.I'd suggest waiting for the outcome to decide. There are a couple paths for the TC to cease to exist this turn and the UHC has a significant navy this time.
And even then, your RWR was probably my favourite of the bunch I played as NPCs - I felt like I could give it its own flavour, whereas if I had a turn with any of the main five, I was just a caretaker until a new PC came in. The TH was so gargantuan that I kept looking for in-universe ways to nerf their growth, like building Potemkins and Newgranges, and the other realms were too small to do much with.
I'd suggest waiting for the outcome to decide. There are a couple paths for the TC to cease to exist this turn and the UHC has a significant navy this time.
I'd suggest waiting for the outcome to decide. There are a couple paths for the TC to cease to exist this turn and the UHC has a significant navy this time.
If anything I'm doing as a GM is making you think there are only a handful of 'ideal' approaches, either I'm sending the wrong signals, or those signals are being misinterpreted.
I'm interested to see what happens with the UHC as they were all set for a fight with the TC...
I was finding the New Kyoto fight difficult to simulate in my head, so I spent a day and made a simulator. It's in C++ (which I expect is not useful to most folks) and of course has a few issues, but I found it quite helpful in understanding the outcome space. Things included:
Things not included:
e) Rolling sides.
I feel like Rolling Sides is kind of important to the utility of a broadside fighter.It's super-important in general, just not here.
Checking again, where are we?
Checking again, where are we?
Trying to figure out why the one file that didn't make it over during a hardware upgrade was my WIP turn summary.Uhoh?
Terra circa 2020 unfortunatelyHmm, the odds of reaching another star in our lifetimes are rather low...
Smegish here, for some reason I can't login as myself at the moment...Try it now, it should be working unless you have logged in a long while.
Work is ongoing, will be done this week or you may travel to my house and stab me.
Checking again: where are we? (Kindalas, could Alsadius help?)
Smegish here, for some reason I can't login as myself at the moment...Hey, I can relate to that problem!
Work is ongoing, will be done this week or you may travel to my house and stab me.
For modern equipment, I don't doubt it. But I found that interesting.Yeah, the change with technology gives some justification for maintenance being an even lower fraction in the future.
*steps into the big players hall of the redux thread. google pages, pens, broken keyboards and empty or half empty coffee mugs lie splattered across the deserted hall. hendrik shyly steps and say* Hello.... are we or anybody alive?I think we're primarily waiting until November on Smegish who is busy with a wedding/honeymoon and secondarily on Kindalas (although he may have finished).
So where's your Rasalhague thread for us? ;)
I'd love see these battles. :drool:
I need to get my parts done.Perhaps you could hand off one of your battles to someone else?
But I'm slowly working on it.
is the smgeman alive? anybody heard from the newly wed? or hes still partying in bangkok, trying to avoid coming home? ;D ;D ;D ;DI haven't heard anything.
I haven't heard anything.Done, hope you like it. Both sides tried to use smart tactics in multiple ways throughout.
I'm planning to wait until the end of the month, then post the two battles I did.
awesome writeup and some nice clashes. bonus points for each big blue meanie damage inflicted :D :D what do you think... mariks lost quite a lot more in these clashes, despite doing substantial damage to the yards?On paper, the Marik's look underarmored and overpriced. They undoubtedly could use an armor refit, but their structure makes them more durable than I initially expected---warships can zombie mode better than just about any other unit from the side aspect. As far as price, the versatility of the docking collars is a reasonable tradeoff once you get to medium dropships. Combat dropships are effectively glass cannons which at least augment warships noticeably. Large dropships will change that equation again and large dropships vs. stationary targets with remote launches will be extra interesting.
Where did the battles get posted? I don't see them offhand.I just posted the ones that I did---I don't have access to the others.
Edit: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/aerospace/warship-arms-race-the-in-character-stuff/msg1649233/#new
He has RL...
He happens to be on my facebook, as is Marcus.
It's currently a pandemic, and summer where he is, not to mention a new wife and that other stuff that goes with it!
" Something honey? ... yes my love... ( sigh ) yes, dear... fine... ( Ugh! Why did I marry again? ) Sure thing love of my life! No more Battletech you say? Well... you look ever so lovely today, as do your mum. ( shudder ) "
Smegish I jest of course... Hope your life is swell! And as soon as this pandemic is over, the better we can get the twice a month posts again.
I wonder if we should run a Ground Redux as well?
TT
Lol not against you I won’t :)
So a bit of Necro... but how’s everyone doing? Anyone around to continue? Restart? Re-do? Change-up?
Idk I just got a bit of creative inspiration on the PoR 3049 stuff I was working on and started writing again and was like... ‘damn now I want more Warship Redux two! (Pun intended!)’
I think a key question here is: how do you avoid GM burnout?
I still gained more ground without losing any...
I miss this game.
Anyone want to reboot it?
Marian Hegemony Legions are ready to reclaim, for the Glory of Cesear!
TT
Yes: we established them a bit early so we had more factions to play. In addition to others who were around longer than in canon like the Principality of Rasalhague.
I still gained more ground without losing any...
I miss this game.
Anyone want to reboot it?
Marian Hegemony Legions are ready to reclaim, for the Glory of Cesear!
TT
So am I. It was still a lot of fun
I’m down but would prefer a larger state this time (FS or LC to be honest)
The only problem is while we have plenty of people wanting to play… we run into the classic RPG problem of who wants to run? We don’t have a DM/GM (or two).
I’m down but would prefer a larger state this time (FS or LC to be honest)
Darn, Davion or Steiner were my top choices.
Has the status of state tracking for alternate universes improved? Some system where folks can designate which stars belong to who and what resources they have would be pretty helpful.
Is there a doc the previous GMs used? Because if there is one that I can use, I could run it given a couple weeks to familiarize myself with it.
I'm partial to the Lothian League, myself... ;)
Anyone slippery enough to escape the Star League should be able to evade a smaller power... ;D
How small of a power would you be willing to support? I'm partial to the Lothian League, myself... ;)
The Lothians HAD a decent industrial base, right up until 2933...
Well, this thread is already in fan rules, so... ;D