Author Topic: Warship Race Redux  (Read 88229 times)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #900 on: 03 June 2020, 07:52:23 »
So, assuming the difference stays, should I use my own calculus or the shared sheet to create a graph of the development of our race for posterity?
What is a "secret yard" anyways?
I've been considering having a size 1 yard in an uninhabited system, manned by crew rotated once a year that don't know where they are and supplied entirely with military jumpships.
Something like that?

Edit: It is seriously difficult to come up with good ship names.
« Last Edit: 03 June 2020, 12:42:02 by UnLimiTeD »
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VensersRevenge

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #901 on: 03 June 2020, 12:39:27 »
In my case, it was a simply one that the Navy buried the expenses in their presumably very long budget proposals under different names and whatnot because Parliament didn't see the need for a Battleship. While I'm hoping it doesn't get deep striked until the J. Marik gets revealed and people have a reason to look for a secret yard, it was never meant to be permanently hidden.
...Is this just fantasy?
Warship Arms Race III
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #902 on: 03 June 2020, 12:45:47 »
While I do not set policy for players, or fully for NPCs, my gut feeling is the era of 'yard raids' may be winding down.  Weve got a brilliant success (FS vs TC), an utter disaster (TH v CC) and a mixed result (PoR v DC)

Given that even in the 'mixed result' case, the attack lost an entire fleet (the fact he had gotten it cheaply reduces its COST, but not its VALUE) without scoring a KO blow on its opponent - in hand with the THN collapse after their attack on the CC - suggests that in GENERAL its going to fall under 'in most cases this is a bad risk.  We have mutliple neighbors, and if we throw away the fleet to hurt one of them, we still have other, unharmed neighbors).  The rise of fixed defenses (missile battlestations) will likely exacerbate this, but I dont know if they will actually be BUILT everywhere - the fact that they can may push doctrine in other directions.

At least for now.  Theres tech on the horizon that might really change the math on those sort of raids, but thats the nature of things.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #903 on: 03 June 2020, 13:17:02 »
I dunno. The raid by the PoR did around 140b in damages, as far as I can tell, and required nearly the entire fleet (built with 3x the budget) to put down, and as far as I can tell from my non-GM seat, it not being a full success was down to dice rolls. Ultimately, we can not stop an enemy from just appearing in a system of their choosing, so the best defence would be to make sure they don't choose that system.
Of course, stations are the more obvious application, but those have a running cost.

In fact, it seems to me that doing deep strikes at nothing in particular may be a way to go. You'll cause a lot of economic damage while avoiding most opposition, as such opposition can't afford to leave the actually valuable stuff undefended.
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #904 on: 03 June 2020, 14:47:38 »
I dunno. The raid by the PoR did around 140b in damages, as far as I can tell, and required nearly the entire fleet (built with 3x the budget) to put down, and as far as I can tell from my non-GM seat, it not being a full success was down to dice rolls. Ultimately, we can not stop an enemy from just appearing in a system of their choosing, so the best defence would be to make sure they don't choose that system.
Of course, stations are the more obvious application, but those have a running cost.

In fact, it seems to me that doing deep strikes at nothing in particular may be a way to go. You'll cause a lot of economic damage while avoiding most opposition, as such opposition can't afford to leave the actually valuable stuff undefended.

It seems to me that if the enemy is faffing about in my space with a few ships, I take a few more ships and go kill them.  Not always easy, but possible.

If hes running around in my space with most of his ships, but wont hit hard targets so Im not rushed, I take almost all of mine - and now hes out most of his navy, and I go visit his capital and set terms

If he brings his whole navy, and somehow ISNT trying for a KO - well, then, Im definitely off to visit his capital.

Sending a lot of your navy off deep into enemy territory is incredibly risky.  One reason (and there are many more) is the information advantage the defender has.  Every time you hit a system (and you are hitting something, else you would not be here), you tell your opponent roughly what you have and where, and you probably don't know what he has and where.  Now, a true ‘bolt from the blue’ attack, where you never enter an inhabited system until you jump into the capitals closest pirate point helps SOME... but who is minding the store at home?

As to dice - the single largest dice roll was the defending admiral expecting that they were aiming for the nearest shipyard - because skipping it to go to Luthien was a lot more risk for a little more reward, and then going on to New Samarkand from Luthien was basically insane - so he didnt expect it - so he was out of position.  Had he properly anticipated what the PoR was thinking, hed have fallen back to Luthien and met them there with two fleets, likely ending the expedition there.

But 'enemy capabilities and intentions' is a game that everyone always plays, but one that noone reliably wins.

« Last Edit: 03 June 2020, 14:54:35 by marcussmythe »

VensersRevenge

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #905 on: 03 June 2020, 14:53:38 »
So how tough are we assuming yards are? Because I have been thinking of some less than honourable plans for weakening enemy powers that my current Admiral would reject, but some of his potential successors would not that I think might be able to sidestep some of those problems.
...Is this just fantasy?
Warship Arms Race III
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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #906 on: 03 June 2020, 15:52:21 »
Nuclear-driven Asteroids?  :D
Or boring sabotage?  Ah, anyways, you have my full support. Rhetorically, I'm not actually going to do anything.
But 'enemy capabilities and intentions' is a game that everyone always plays, but one that noone reliably wins.
True. I guess my intuition was a lot more accurate than that admiral's. I figured the capital was the one obvious target, and was kind of surprised they went for a publicity tour first.
That said; will you always tell the enemy where you are?
I would assume not every system you jump into has a jumpship ready to move out at a moments notice.
... of course, once HPG is a thing, anything but a needle strike will basically make the defender omniscient.
« Last Edit: 03 June 2020, 15:54:46 by UnLimiTeD »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #907 on: 03 June 2020, 16:22:24 »
Nuclear-driven Asteroids?  :D
Or boring sabotage?  Ah, anyways, you have my full support. Rhetorically, I'm not actually going to do anything. True. I guess my intuition was a lot more accurate than that admiral's. I figured the capital was the one obvious target, and was kind of surprised they went for a publicity tour first.
That said; will you always tell the enemy where you are?
I would assume not every system you jump into has a jumpship ready to move out at a moments notice.
... of course, once HPG is a thing, anything but a needle strike will basically make the defender omniscient.


No, every system you hit probably wont have a charging jumpship right there.  It would be odd if they did, barring yall building a lot of jumpships and spreading them around everywhere for just that purpose.  But even if its a few days or a week, thats still a huge intel advantage that the defender has.

OTOH, the attack has the large advatage of 'what does he want/where is he going/whats he planning on doing when he gets there'.  An incoming invasion is a different problem from a yard raid is a different problem from a high speed infrastructure pass... yadda.


Jester Motley

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #908 on: 03 June 2020, 18:30:31 »
So, assuming the difference stays, should I use my own calculus or the shared sheet to create a graph of the development of our race for posterity?

Feel free to use my sheet, just make a new tab, and that way a lot of info is already imported in if you want/need it.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #909 on: 03 June 2020, 19:02:41 »
I suppose I could just do that.
Because the numbers in our shared rare sheet don't always add up.
Of course, switching from those would result in a small hick-up.

Quote
1,176x Fighters (Mostly heavier designs): 5.600
To put no finer point to it:  At a glance, that seems wrong. 6x5 never ends in a multiple of 100.
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #910 on: 04 June 2020, 11:37:57 »
I suppose I could just do that.
Because the numbers in our shared rare sheet don't always add up.
Of course, switching from those would result in a small hick-up.

To put no finer point to it:  At a glance, that seems wrong. 6x5 never ends in a multiple of 100.

Yeah...... I’m gonna edit that right now ..... what is sleep anyways lul

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #911 on: 05 June 2020, 06:18:02 »
Take your time.  ;)
I've put finishing my post on hold for 2 days now to ponder how to name my future battlecruisers. The BT universe is really short on topographical descriptions necessary for such an undertaking.

... I really need to get done.
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Jester Motley

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #912 on: 05 June 2020, 06:40:24 »
One more edit for turn 5 IC content, again not game affecting, just added in current/active ship names.

kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #913 on: 05 June 2020, 15:02:18 »
Should have my turn up by tomorrow.

There is so much ship relevant tech that I've having to go through my designs with a fine toothed comb.

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #914 on: 06 June 2020, 13:57:26 »
CC Turn 5 is up. There is an appendix that I'll try to send to the GMs later today and I plan to add a few details when I get a chance to run the equations and make the maps.

Can someone-not-me check that the links to the designs work?

kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #915 on: 06 June 2020, 15:23:18 »
CC Turn 5 is up. There is an appendix that I'll try to send to the GMs later today and I plan to add a few details when I get a chance to run the equations and make the maps.

Can someone-not-me check that the links to the designs work?

Seems to work for me,

Just an FYI only space stations can mount more then a single repair bay.

And having access to fero-aluminium armor doesn't mean that we have light or heavy.

But it doesn't matter since Fighters and dropships are all standardized.

Also hundreds of small lasers will have diminishing returns when it comes to point defense.

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #916 on: 06 June 2020, 15:31:50 »
Seems to work for me,
Great.

Just an FYI only space stations can mount more then a single repair bay.
This was changed in the errata here, page 65.

And having access to fero-aluminium armor doesn't mean that we have light or heavy.
Oh? In the last game, I believe it did?

But it doesn't matter since Fighters and dropships are all standardized.
Yep, I know.  Do we have a reference to a standard design?

Also hundreds of small lasers will have diminishing returns when it comes to point defense.
That depends on how many missiles are incoming  :)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #917 on: 06 June 2020, 17:05:23 »
Ok, I managed to finish my turn. I can scarcely believe I spent about a week lowkey pondering naming schemes and took 2 weeks to actually finish.
But the design had been in the pipe for long enough it didn't even have a cargo output.
I'll be adding budget information ASAP.

Looks like the CC did another 180 and now refits their ships to do what the ships they just sold did.  :D
« Last Edit: 06 June 2020, 18:13:47 by UnLimiTeD »
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #918 on: 06 June 2020, 21:12:53 »
******.... nice turn Unlimited. Need to start digging into a bag of tricks or ten ....

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #919 on: 06 June 2020, 21:28:08 »
Looks like the CC did another 180 and now refits their ships to do what the ships they just sold did.  :D
Yeah, I wanted something concrete for the upthread discussion about alternates to the 4 corner design.  The nose-only approach has quite a bit going for it in a fleet battle since you get more firepower and armor on point. Obviously, it entirely lacks the ability to 'roll sides' and it's a little bit easier to hit (+1 penalty vs. +2 penalty), but in a fleet engagement the former doesn't matter with concentration of fire while the latter is typically not as big an effect as the significant firepower and somewhat significant armor increases.   The other big advantage for the nose-only design is that you free up lots of arcs for things like anti-fighter weaponry. 

Amongst weapon layouts, I understand 3 good choices: 4 corners, nose, and three corners.  4 corners and nose are obvious.  The three corner choice features nose + aft side arcs and is particularly useful for a fast combatant against a shorter-ranged slow combatant.  The Pallada II is a mixture of nose and three corners while the Kuan Yin II is all nose.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #920 on: 07 June 2020, 05:22:35 »
Quote
******.... nice turn Unlimited
Thank you.  :) You already pulled a nice trick last turn, don't feel pressured on my behalf.
The cruisers were in the pipeline for around 3 turns, and started out as an outgrowth of a 900kt fleet tender that never materialized. Then it kept growing, and I was rather relieved that you didn't get the class 5 yards, so I could get that out the door. It was nagging at me.^^ Efficiency-wise, it's a waste of money.
Especially given the current Coordinator seems to spend less on the military.  :violin: Hmm, canonically, he will die again soon. Given how late he came to power, might be a short reign.  xp

Yeah, I wanted something concrete for the upthread discussion about alternates to the 4 corner design.
I noticed.  :)
At first I thought "That's disgusting!", but then I noticed the obvious intent. Though it kind of also plays into my point that I'd like weapons total per arc limited.
A disadvantage of the nose-heavy approach is that you can't fight without closing with the enemy. So if you have an enemy sporting mostly NAC boats with equal speed to your ships, you can run away or go into melee.

Do your combat stations have no Grav decks?
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Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #921 on: 07 June 2020, 05:48:01 »
At first I thought "That's disgusting!", but then I noticed the obvious intent. Though it kind of also plays into my point that I'd like weapons total per arc limited.
I'm not sure limiting weapons/arc matters that much.  With capital weapons, you typically don't exceed the maximum much.  With non-capital weapons, a hard cap would give more motivation for every ship to be a carrier.
A disadvantage of the nose-heavy approach is that you can't fight without closing with the enemy. So if you have an enemy sporting mostly NAC boats with equal speed to your ships, you can run away or go into melee.
The broadside approach suffers from the same issue.  To keep you enemy in the 60 degree angle afforded by the broadside, your vector can be at most 30 degrees away and SIN(30) is about .17, so with a thrust of 4/6, you might be able to accelerate by .17*6 ~= 1 away.  Any opponent more capable than a station can match that.   With a 4 corner design you can of course just use an aft-side arc, but then you've divided your weapons load by 4 which is very poor. 
Do your combat stations have no Grav decks?
Right.  They are defense stations so crews typically rotate planet-side and back, or at least aboard a ship with a grav deck.

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #922 on: 07 June 2020, 07:08:49 »
And having access to fero-aluminium armor doesn't mean that we have light or heavy.
I updated the Dire Bear to use FA instead of HFA.  Sadly, this means it will overheat by 3 when firing all forward facing weapons.  On the upside, it means you can cram in two more small lasers for even more capital missile crunching and it's a bit cheaper.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #923 on: 07 June 2020, 07:15:26 »
More advanced armours are another thing that out tech tree doesn't have. But, arguably, it doesn't make a difference.
The broadside approach suffers from the same issue.  ...
Ah, sure, you can't really run away. But you don't have to close, either. Say, the hypothetical case of attacking NAC-armed stations. Not that those really exist.
And diving into melee isn't always what we want.
Actually, a question to the GMs: How do we handle mines? Are they a capital weapon or a standard scale weapon? I would assume the latter.
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Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #924 on: 07 June 2020, 07:31:51 »
Ah, sure, you can't really run away. But you don't have to close, either. Say, the hypothetical case of attacking NAC-armed stations. Not that those really exist.
If we are in physics land, you can move forward with an infinitesimal velocity.  If we are in BT rules, then your minimum forward velocity is '1'.  Either way, since most combats are over in less than 10 minutes, either you or the stations will be dead before you close to NAC range.
And diving into melee isn't always what we want.
I agree.  It's possible to use either an aft or nose arc with the side hit location table since there is a 30 degree overlap between the side hit location and the arc fire.  This isn't that useful for the nose approach because you might just prefer more armor on the nose.  But if you load up on weapons in the aft arc and then use the side hit location table it becomes more compelling since it's a +2 to hit penalty.  Also, you can vector away more than is possible in the broadside arc.

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #925 on: 07 June 2020, 08:54:56 »
I added a map of the capellan jump circuit and fort worlds.  I also realized one of them(Ward) wasn't settled yet, so I eliminated it which had a minor effect on the budget.  I also added some discussion about doctrine and jump circuit timing.  I believe everything is settled now (... hopefully later turns will be easier).

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #926 on: 07 June 2020, 08:55:55 »
Do we actually have a K-F Adapter in our spreadsheet?
I've been wondering how I would actually deploy stations to my non-yard systems, and there was the recent discussion in "travelling the Milky Way", so I looked it up, and I noted I can't actually find the respective equipment in our sheet.
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Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #927 on: 07 June 2020, 09:03:16 »
Do we actually have a K-F Adapter in our spreadsheet?
I've been wondering how I would actually deploy stations to my non-yard systems, and there was the recent discussion in "travelling the Milky Way", so I looked it up, and I noted I can't actually find the respective equipment in our sheet.
Space Stations can generally be built on-site, but I've arranged for anything that I want to transport to be under 100K so the Sailor's Mercy can stick it in a "Naval Repair Unpressurized" bay and jump with it.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #928 on: 07 June 2020, 09:37:21 »
Yes, I actually have a 480kt repair ship on hand.
But, as far as I can tell/interpret the rules (and the coverage is somewhat sketchy), those function through integrated collars, aka are not internal, and as such would require a station with a K-F adapter (raising the cost multiplier to 20x). But I can't find that in our spreadsheet.
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Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #929 on: 07 June 2020, 09:51:46 »
But, as far as I can tell/interpret the rules (and the coverage is somewhat sketchy), those function through integrated collars, aka are not internal, and as such would require a station with a K-F adapter (raising the cost multiplier to 20x). But I can't find that in our spreadsheet.
In TacOps I see: "Jumpships or Warships with repair facilities may jump while the facilities contain non-jump capable vessels, however, as these systems incorporate K-F drive booms."  so the stations need nothing special.