Author Topic: Warship Race Redux  (Read 89978 times)

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1170 on: 14 August 2020, 22:18:54 »
I don't think I understand how the prongs approach works.  You would need the other ships (including the center one) to shift into a new prong configuration as the attacked prong falls back.  But that doesn't work very well in space because there is no 'friction'---the new prong would need to reverse thrust to slow down making rapid reconfigurations more difficult than you might expect.  For the Lie Ren, target selection and target switching is certainly a tricky process, part of why the crews are elite.  (Another part is because accuracy is super important at extreme ranges.)

It does seem plausible that fleet maneuvers can significantly reduce the rate of safe fire that the Lie Ren can put out and can cause the damage to be distributed relatively evenly across the fleet.  My expectation is that there is a significant learning curve here due to the shift in tactics from a "wall of battle" that characterizes every battle so far to something much more fluid.   

CC doctrine prioritizes destroying the enemy's strategic mobility, making jumpships a higher priority target than warships.  As a consequence, a jumpship heavy fleet (like the TH) could find itself forced to defend a (relatively) fixed position (the location of the jumpship fleet) against the Lie Ren limiting tactical flexibility.   

A simple tactic moving beyond the wall of battle is a sacrifice play: detach a ship or a squad to pursue the Lie Ren while the fleet moves on.   The Li Ren might eventually kill off the sacrificial ships, but that gives the other ships a huge head start in going wherever they are going.   Alternatively, the Lie Ren could dodge the sacrifice play to pursue the main body of the fleet, but that takes up significant time.

W.r.t. the fighter approach, part of the reason why the Lie Ren is so large is to achieve invulnerability to fighter scale weapons.  If we were playing with standard BT rules, that would not work.  (On the other hand carrier tactics are overwhelming, so I don't think that's a mistake...)

W.r.t. crews getting exhausted, that seems very plausible.  Both sides would be suffering here.  I'd estimate the elite side has an edge in combat under equal levels of exhaustion, but at some point rest would certainly be required.  If the Lie Ren disengages periodically for rest breaks, combat stretches out over significantly more time than a day.

It must be said though that bad luck or a bad tactical decision could easily destroy the Lie Ren.   Jumping into a pirate point where the enemy happens to be, turning left when you should have turned up, misjudging enemy ship speed & location, etc... are all very natural failure modes.  How far does it manage to go before a critical mistake is made? 

Incidentally, the "easy" counter to the Lie Ren is to just have a slower ship with more LNGs and armor.  The FS already halfway does this.

Smegish

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1171 on: 22 August 2020, 20:10:31 »
Sorry about the lack of communication recently, RL stuff keeps getting in the way.

For those who are interested in helping write battle reports, I have the following fights that have broad results, but need details:

*In Chronological Order*

CapCon vs FedSuns in Maharet
Terrans v CapCon in Terra Firma
Marik v Lyrans in Gienah
Marik v Lyrans in New Kyoto
Combine v FedSuns in Klathan
CapCon v Terrans in Terra


kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1172 on: 22 August 2020, 21:57:36 »
I'll take whichever ones you want me to take.

I can't believe that the FWL went after one of the decoy shipyards...  :D

VensersRevenge

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1173 on: 22 August 2020, 23:11:09 »
I'll take any the FWL aren't involved in.
...Is this just fantasy?
Warship Arms Race III
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=84031.0

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1174 on: 23 August 2020, 08:17:58 »
I'm happy to do either Marik v Lyrans or Combine v FedSuns.

Smegish

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1175 on: 24 August 2020, 01:52:44 »
So, how about Lagrange handles the two Marik v Lyran fights, Kindalas handles the Terrans v Cappies fights, and Vensers handles the Cappie v FedSuns and Combine v FedSuns fights?

In the meantime, I'll finish up the UHC v Taurian campaign and the Marian v Illyrian fight.

VensersRevenge

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1176 on: 24 August 2020, 02:41:12 »
Sounds good to me.
...Is this just fantasy?
Warship Arms Race III
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=84031.0


kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1178 on: 24 August 2020, 10:30:15 »
sounds good to me.

kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1179 on: 27 August 2020, 23:39:36 »
I'm plugging away on these fights.

Trying to make them exciting and with smart naval leaders.

So don't do my Lyrans dirty, otherwise the Capellans will read like a stackpole novel.....


 :D :D


Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1180 on: 28 August 2020, 06:54:55 »
Trying to make them exciting and with smart naval leaders.
I finished Gienah.  Both sides made smart choices all the way through...

truetanker

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1181 on: 28 August 2020, 10:15:30 »
I like dirty fights, it allows me to play even dirtier later. Here's hoping I don't get smeared to badly.

TT
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Alsadius

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1182 on: 31 August 2020, 06:32:47 »
So I just found this thread. (Marcus sent me a PM on another forum back in March, and I just happened to notice it now)

I haven't had time to go through everything yet, but I think I like most of the changes I've seen so far. Balancing the budgets more than I did might be "less realistic", but I'd wager it's been more fun.

If i wanted to take over the Taurians, how long would it be until I needed to get my turn submitted?

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1183 on: 31 August 2020, 07:26:19 »
So I just found this thread. (Marcus sent me a PM on another forum back in March, and I just happened to notice it now)

I haven't had time to go through everything yet, but I think I like most of the changes I've seen so far. Balancing the budgets more than I did might be "less realistic", but I'd wager it's been more fun.

If i wanted to take over the Taurians, how long would it be until I needed to get my turn submitted?
Smegish is running this, but my understanding is that battles involving the Taurians have occurred(?) and have not been posted yet. 

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1184 on: 31 August 2020, 07:43:55 »
Welcome back, Alsadius.  :)
I suppose you could jump in, but given that people are writing individual combat reports now, it might be more prudent to wait that out and then jump in on the next turn?
That said, who knows how long this iteration will go. Seems 5 turns is about the length after which one GM burns out, and we'll need a steady stream of sacrifices to keep it going.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Alsadius

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1185 on: 31 August 2020, 07:48:00 »
Alright. If the turn is being written, I'll jump in for next turn. Gives me time to catch up on everything too.

GermanSumo

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1186 on: 31 August 2020, 08:06:30 »
Alright. If the turn is being written, I'll jump in for next turn. Gives me time to catch up on everything too.

welcome, alsadius. which realm will be yours? uhc?

anyway, warm greetings from the rim world republic and me  :)) :))

Alsadius

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1187 on: 31 August 2020, 08:28:30 »
welcome, alsadius. which realm will be yours? uhc?

anyway, warm greetings from the rim world republic and me  :)) :))

TC. I want a navy. The UHC was mildly amusing as a NPC realm for me last time, because they were so different, but I could scratch my fleet-building itch with the Terran Hegemony.

And even then, your RWR was probably my favourite of the bunch I played as NPCs - I felt like I could give it its own flavour, whereas if I had a turn with any of the main five, I was just a caretaker until a new PC came in. The TH was so gargantuan that I kept looking for in-universe ways to nerf their growth, like building Potemkins and Newgranges, and the other realms were too small to do much with.

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1188 on: 31 August 2020, 08:58:50 »
TC. I want a navy. The UHC was mildly amusing as a NPC realm for me last time, because they were so different, but I could scratch my fleet-building itch with the Terran Hegemony.

And even then, your RWR was probably my favourite of the bunch I played as NPCs - I felt like I could give it its own flavour, whereas if I had a turn with any of the main five, I was just a caretaker until a new PC came in. The TH was so gargantuan that I kept looking for in-universe ways to nerf their growth, like building Potemkins and Newgranges, and the other realms were too small to do much with.
I'd suggest waiting for the outcome to decide.  There are a couple paths for the TC to cease to exist this turn and the UHC has a significant navy this time.

GermanSumo

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1189 on: 31 August 2020, 11:03:58 »
I'd suggest waiting for the outcome to decide.  There are a couple paths for the TC to cease to exist this turn and the UHC has a significant navy this time.

hehehe lagrange here is playing the liaos :D and hes too darn good at it. right now hes beating the terrans to a pulp and as a side projects, will vassalize the taurians which i also wanted to play. i let him discourage me.

Alsadius

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1190 on: 31 August 2020, 11:35:20 »
I'd suggest waiting for the outcome to decide.  There are a couple paths for the TC to cease to exist this turn and the UHC has a significant navy this time.

Fair. No rush. I'll wait and see what happens.

Also, I'm up to about page 10 now. The discussion about what I meant by advanced PPCs? It was light PPCs, heavy PPCs, and PPC capacitors. (There's a comment on the master sheet for the first game)

Edit:
If anything I'm doing as a GM is making you think there are only a handful of 'ideal' approaches, either I'm sending the wrong signals, or those signals are being misinterpreted.

Fully agreed with this, and the whole post. But I find it a bit amusing, because you seemed to be the one who was the biggest believer in there being one true way last time. Nothing wrong with that, especially if it was intended as roleplay, and it led to some interesting designs. But it also kept me on my toes, trying to ensure that the rules weren't actually as broken as that. (God, the number of times I wound up thinking about anti-missile rules, and how to ensure they stayed balanced in the face of the insane missile arms race that my fighter rules created...)

Also, I have to say that it's been a ton of fun reading this thread. All the stuff I was doing a couple years ago is coming back to me, and it seems to have really struck a chord with you guys. It makes me extraordinarily happy to see how much you liked it, and to see you guys going out of your way to replicate it.
« Last Edit: 31 August 2020, 16:36:22 by Alsadius »

Smegish

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1191 on: 01 September 2020, 01:40:05 »
Welcome Alsadius!

You can certainly take the Taurians off my hands next turn if you want them, I can guarantee they are not dead just yet. The UHC has had some political shenanigans happen, which will be made public before too long and that is going to cause some serious issues in the nation.

In other news, with my (hopefully still) upcoming wedding in October and marcus having left us, not a whole lot will be happening regarding this game during that month. Not abandoning the game just yet, but letting people know ahead of time.

kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1192 on: 01 September 2020, 07:19:01 »
I'm doing a major computer upgrade this week that has put writing on the back burner.

So if anyone is stressing about getting things written by the weekend don't stress.

But I have an outline on how the fights went and it is glorious.

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1193 on: 01 September 2020, 07:33:05 »
I'm interested to see what happens with the UHC as they were all set for a fight with the TC...

I was finding the New Kyoto fight difficult to simulate in my head, so I spent a day and made a simulator.  It's in C++ (which I expect is not useful to most folks) and of course has a few issues, but I found it quite helpful in understanding the outcome space.  Things included:

1) critical hits
2) point defense (including the house rule)
3) targeting before firing
4) simultaneous damage
5) damage resolution from biggest to smallest

Things not included:
a) Responsive maneuvering.
b) Collisions with an out of control unit.
c) Standard scale weapons fire vs capital armor house rule.
d) Standard scale weapons fire vs capital structure is approximate.
e) Rolling sides.
f) targeting is slightly sloppy.  That's probably realistic.

Anyways, happy to post if it's helpful to someone.  I'll probably refine it further if there are other combats to worry about.

The New Kyoto fight also made me appreciate how powerful warship structure is in the broadside arc.  A Marik (for example) can often keep fighting effectively until structure destruction is complete.   This has some bearing on the nose warhips vs. broadside warship debate.  To a reasonable approximation, a nose warship has nose armor while a broadside warship has armor + structure. 

kindalas

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1194 on: 01 September 2020, 10:41:51 »
I'm interested to see what happens with the UHC as they were all set for a fight with the TC...

I was finding the New Kyoto fight difficult to simulate in my head, so I spent a day and made a simulator.  It's in C++ (which I expect is not useful to most folks) and of course has a few issues, but I found it quite helpful in understanding the outcome space.  Things included:

Things not included:
e) Rolling sides.


I feel like Rolling Sides is kind of important to the utility of a broadside fighter.

And since we know the outcomes I'm focusing on making an interesting narrative about the strategy employed by each side.

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1195 on: 01 September 2020, 10:46:25 »
I feel like Rolling Sides is kind of important to the utility of a broadside fighter.
It's super-important in general, just not here.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1196 on: 01 September 2020, 12:48:57 »
The value of rolling ship is strongly impacted by fleet size, assuming fire is discreet salvoes (as it is in TT) as large fleet sizes will cause ships to go from ‘undamaged’ to ‘monatomic gas’ before they have a chance to roll.  Real life is analog, not digital, so the ability to roll in response to fire is up to the GM.

Another fun note about Structure... it cares not for mass. A 150SI FF has thinner armor, but the same SI, as a 150 SI BB.  This doesnt redress all the disadvantages of smaller hulls, but does pull (some) of the sting.

Alsadius

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1197 on: 01 September 2020, 23:25:57 »
I've finally caught up. It sounds like all the battles are already being written for this turn, but I wouldn't mind doing some here and there on other turns. (I clearly can't maintain a GM's pace long term, but an odd battle here and there is fine.)

And I see what you mean about the TC being in trouble. I'll pick an empire after this turn, either way.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1198 on: 02 September 2020, 00:16:29 »
Welcome (back) Alsadius!!

Lagrange

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #1199 on: 03 September 2020, 14:20:46 »
W.r.t. rolling sides, it remains relevant for extreme range combat, at least for now.  Here, a typical to-hit number is 4+6(range)+2(side aspect)=12, implying a 1-in-36 chance of a hit.  We haven't yet seen fleets large enough to wipe out a single enemy warship at extreme range each turn.   This will likely change with advancing technology...

I've also been tinkering with my little fleet combat simulator program and implemented rolling of sides.

Edit: more tinkering.  Collisions are handled.  Targeting is improved, although still far from perfect.  Of the things listed before, what remains unhandled is:
a) Responsive maneuvering.
d) Standard scale weapons fire vs capital structure and armor is approximate.

I don't plan to handle these for now.

 

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