Comstar: good, bad or otherwise?

[Drewbacca]

The more I read, the more it seems the Blakist were not really evil Comstar, just a more extreme version of the order. Which raises the question. Do you Comstar as good, bad or o  par with the other powers?

[Daryk]

Definitely "otherwise", just like all the other powers...

[Frabby]

But unlike the other powers, ComStar claimed an essentially benevolent mission - and technically never claimed that they should rule the Inner Sphere. That's the ComStar the new recruits signed up for. And on this basis, despite all the religious trappings and upper-level corruption, I tend to regard 99.999% of all ComStar personnell as people who genuinely tried to be good, fair and unbiased towards everybody.

That's excluding certain high-profile leaders, of course, and by extension the organisation as such. But Acolythe Joe Average, almost certainly, was a good guy because he wanted to be.

[Dayton3]

Evil personified.    Along with the Kuritans,   Liaos, and Katherine Steiner-Davion.

[Iracundus]

As with all the other powers, Comstar justified its own goals as being ultimately for the good of humanity, and like so many other examples, eventually extremists took the stance of the ends justify the means and "We'll drag you kicking and screaming into enlightenment whether you like it or not."

The winners write the histories.  If Comstar had won, the histories would have portrayed its actions as maybe regrettable but ultimately for the good.  Arguably, that is what the Star League did about its own formation.

[Frogfoot]

People are sometimes quick to forget the profligate use of chemical weapons, nuclear weapons and biological weapons by the likes of apparent 'White Hats' House Davion in the 1st Succession War. Comstar never did anything on that level, not even the Word of Blake fired off as many party-poppers as that. A caveat that must be mentioned though is that Comstar provoked and prolonged the 2nd Succession War and had a hand in destroying technologies that supported millions of lives. But even then one of the effects of 'Holy Shroud' was destroying the technologies for high tech warfare, leading to the much lower intensity fighting of the long 3rd Succession War. Was that mitigating effect on war intentional on Comstar's part? Can they take any credit for the lessed level of devastation during the 2900s? I'm inclined to say no but I'm not 100% on that.

Comstar did have a noble altruistic goal behind all the power games. Toyama's exact motives are unclear - the 2SSW book suggests he was actually in tune with Blake after Blake had a change of heart - but either way, the end goal that he codified was the long-term prosperity of all humanity through technology. Where he and the rest of Comstar got crazy was believing that the ends justified the means, with the Word of Blake taking those means to horrific extremes, and the 'long-term' part meant they could always justify evil acts in the present by saying it was for the future.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

As with all the other powers, Comstar justified its own goals as being ultimately for the good of humanity, and like so many other examples, eventually extremists took the stance of the ends justify the means and "We'll drag you kicking and screaming into enlightenment whether you like it or not."

Fun tangent:  The Sword of Light's name and symbol evoke the exact same meaning.  Like, scarily exactly that.

[Sartris]

People are sometimes quick to forget the profligate use of chemical weapons, nuclear weapons and biological weapons by the likes of apparent 'White Hats' House Davion in the 1st Succession War. Comstar never did anything on that level, not even the Word of Blake fired off as many party-poppers as that.

not for lack of trying. the wobbies just lacked the delivery capabilities, arsenal, and time to pull it off. But yes, it's difficult to compete with the greatest atrocity-mongers in history.

A caveat that must be mentioned though is that Comstar provoked and prolonged the 2nd Succession War and had a hand in destroying technologies that supported millions of lives. But even then one of the effects of 'Holy Shroud' was destroying the technologies for high tech warfare, leading to the much lower intensity fighting of the long 3rd Succession War. Was that mitigating effect on war intentional on Comstar's part? Can they take any credit for the lessed level of devastation during the 2900s? I'm inclined to say no but I'm not 100% on that.

I guess. based on their plans they weren't successful enough.

Comstar did have a noble altruistic goal behind all the power games. Toyama's exact motives are unclear - the 2SSW book suggests he was actually in tune with Blake after Blake had a change of heart - but either way, the end goal that he codified was the long-term prosperity of all humanity through technology. Where he and the rest of Comstar got crazy was believing that the ends justified the means, with the Word of Blake taking those means to horrific extremes, and the 'long-term' part meant they could always justify evil acts in the present by saying it was for the future.

I just picture ROM agents strangling scientists to death screaming "THIS IS ALTRUISM FOR THE GOOD OF HUMANITY" and am greatly amused. it's easier to justify a few hundred deaths when the successor lords played WMD tennis for decades.

comstar is just the some of the lesser stinky poop in a poop-filled sty.

[Luciora]

For the good of humankind takes all kinds of views.  I'm with Frabby with the exception of the leadership that Comstar did want what was best for the Inner Sphere.  How that was to be achieved, well, you cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.  Mostly.

[Dayton3]

Has it ever been conclusively established which of the successor states first committed atrocities with large scale use of weapons of mass destruction during the First Succession War?

IIRC in the Capellan Confederation/House Liao original sourcebook it specifically says that when the First Succession War began Chancellor Liao (don't remember which) ordered her military to "consider the Ares Conventions suspended".

[Daryk]

And honestly, atrocities carried out the old fashioned way (without WMDs) are all the more horrific (see Kentares).

[JadedFalcon]

The CapCon Aries treaty thing was about 2788, same year Kurita nuked Helm. But Davions & Lyrans were nuking each other back in 2785.

So when the whole barrel is rotten...

[Frogfoot]

Has it ever been conclusively established which of the successor states first committed atrocities with large scale use of weapons of mass destruction during the First Succession War?

It was probably the scorched earth nuclear strikes on Bolan's cities by the fanatical House Marik defenders in March 2785. There was also a major nuclear exchange between Steiner and Davion on the planet Rocky in 2785.

[Sartris]

Has it ever been conclusively established which of the successor states first committed atrocities with large scale use of weapons of mass destruction during the First Succession War?

IIRC in the Capellan Confederation/House Liao original sourcebook it specifically says that when the First Succession War began Chancellor Liao (don't remember which) ordered her military to "consider the Ares Conventions suspended".

Earliest example I could find in 1SW was Bolan in March 2785. FWL defenders used nukes in a scorched-earth attack and the Lyrans added to the misery in retaliation 

The Bolan Offensive became a template for the conflict ahead. With no Star League Council to answer to, the Great Houses would spearhead their invasions with heavy naval forces, while defenders fell into their cities to discourage bombardment, or take to heavily fortified positions left behind by the SLDF. These strategies, in turn, would prompt many an impatient commander to unleash nuclear and chemical weapons to avoid protracted campaigns, rationalizing these decisions as necessary to shock their enemies into submission and preserve their own strength. To prevent their foes from recovering their losses quickly, heavy industries would also fall under the House Lords’ crosshairs - even those located deep within civilian population centers. And, if all else failed,scorched earth was always an acceptable last resort.

[Frogfoot]

And honestly, atrocities carried out the old fashioned way (without WMDs) are all the more horrific (see Kentares).

Guess that's a matter of opinion. Kentares was bad, but WMD scar a planet for centuries. Many planets in the Inner Sphere still have contaminated zones from WMD strikes in the 1st and 2nd SWs, and some were even wiped right off the map.

[Drewbacca]

Guess that's a matter of opinion. Kentares was bad, but WMD scar a planet for centuries. Many planets in the Inner Sphere still have contaminated zones from WMD strikes in the 1st and 2nd SWs, and some were even wiped right off the map.

I have just started 1SSW and GOD LORD planets are falling left and right. I mean I know I am a bit biased, but what Comstar did even in prolonging the war seems to pale by comparison. I am aware this was also somewhat standard SLDF treatment, but the successor houses took the "look the enemy is in a bunker, NUKE IT" mentality to a whole new level.

That said, even as a fan of Comstar, thier hands are as red as any other if only for the fact they did everything possible to keep that mess going. But even with the Star pulling the strings, it was up to the house lords to decide to keep chucking WMDs. And when even Babs decided to screw the Ares Conventions, it is clear they really did not care.

[Drewbacca]

But unlike the other powers, ComStar claimed an essentially benevolent mission - and technically never claimed that they should rule the Inner Sphere. That's the ComStar the new recruits signed up for. And on this basis, despite all the religious trappings and upper-level corruption, I tend to regard 99.999% of all ComStar personnell as people who genuinely tried to be good, fair and unbiased towards everybody.

That's excluding certain high-profile leaders, of course, and by extension the organisation as such. But Acolythe Joe Average, almost certainly, was a good guy because he wanted to be.

I think I would agree with this. But I would also extend this to the houses too. Really it comes down to the leadership. I would say that until the rise of the Master even Comstars leadership was a tad better than some of the houses, they were by no means squeaky clean.

[Frogfoot]

Old Comstar killed Primuses that they thought were too soft. Marteen and York were both assassinated from within by hardline elements. Comstar never had anyone as outright evil as, say, Kalvin Liao, Jinjiro Kurita or Claudius Steiner but nearly every Primus was a ruthless operator. The Successor States had greater lows with some of their crazy leaders but they also had some decent people on their thrones.

[Daryk]

I think Waterly belongs in that list...

[The Eagle]

You can rationalize the use of WMDs on the battlefield.  Not perfectly, not so everyone accepts that need, but it's plausible that right-thinking people will nuke an opponent out of "military necessity" and convince other right-thinking people that it was a necessity.  But to systematically murder scientists and engineers across a hundred worlds for the sole purpose of ****** humanity's ability to recover from catastrophe?  Only the most ruthless, most fanatical, most despicable minds come ever rationalize an attempt to hold humanity at the brink of destruction as anything less than diabolical.

[Sartris]

which is why I love the old comstar - a secret blackhat covering their blackhattedness with a construction helmet. I headcanon the generic comstar employee as the Orkin man that twirls his secret mustache when no one is looking.

[Iracundus]

You can rationalize the use of WMDs on the battlefield.  Not perfectly, not so everyone accepts that need, but it's plausible that right-thinking people will nuke an opponent out of "military necessity" and convince other right-thinking people that it was a necessity.  But to systematically murder scientists and engineers across a hundred worlds for the sole purpose of ****** humanity's ability to recover from catastrophe?  Only the most ruthless, most fanatical, most despicable minds come ever rationalize an attempt to hold humanity at the brink of destruction as anything less than diabolical.

I see it as more of a "Join us or die" approach when it came to scientists (recruit those they could and kill the rest).  The rationale was supposedly that Comstar would safeguard knowledge and technology for the betterment of all humanity as the rest of humanity had shown it could not be trusted with that knowledge.  It is the same kind of rationale used by other technology hoarding factions in some other IP's, such as the Brotherhood of Steel from Fallout. 

Comstar's administration and rebuilding of Terra was among other things meant to be a showpiece to demonstrate what Comstar could offer the rest of humanity if they would just submit.

[Dayton3]

The thing that bothers me about Comstar is that Jerome Blake clearly wanted to preserve knowledge and save humanity as much as possible.    Not dominate and control it as Comstar quickly saw their mission as being.

Also,  after the First Succession War,   Comstar had it in their power to "tap things down" and reduce the likelihood of large scale violence.    Instead they did the exact opposite.   Promoting the damage caused by the Chain Gang Missions to incite the Second Succession War.    Deliberately inciting the Third Succession War.    Trying to prevent an outright victory in the Fourth Succession War and War of 3039 by the Federated Commonwealth.

One can make a strong case that had they chose to do so,  Comstar could've prevented Succession Wars after the first and promoted humanities restoration of technologies and living standards nearly two centuries earlier.

[Iracundus]

The thing that bothers me about Comstar is that Jerome Blake clearly wanted to preserve knowledge and save humanity as much as possible.    Not dominate and control it as Comstar quickly saw their mission as being.

Also,  after the First Succession War,   Comstar had it in their power to "tap things down" and reduce the likelihood of large scale violence.    Instead they did the exact opposite.   Promoting the damage caused by the Chain Gang Missions to incite the Second Succession War.    Deliberately inciting the Third Succession War.    Trying to prevent an outright victory in the Fourth Succession War and War of 3039 by the Federated Commonwealth.

One can make a strong case that had they chose to do so,  Comstar could've prevented Succession Wars after the first and promoted humanities restoration of technologies and living standards nearly two centuries earlier.

More recent background suggests Blake did want to preserve knowledge and save humanity, but had also decided that nothing short of the Successor States exhausting all war making capability would suffice to induce humanity to turn to Comstar.  From the Comstar POV, the forest fire had to be let to burn itself out entirely, and leave no more dry tinder for future fires. 

After the 1st SW, the Houses still possessed enough to still wage war.  The first fire had been incomplete.  Comstar's actions against the FedCom were to keep the balance of power and to encourage the continued exhaustion of all combatants.  Comstar might have seen the scenario of the FedCom winning the Succession Wars through force of arms to be an abomination, since it would teach the wrong lesson to humanity:  that all that force and violence over the centuries was efficacious in the end, instead of humanity turning towards peace voluntarily (with Comstar as the savior and guarantor of the peace). 

[Minemech]

 I admit that I liked oldskool Comstar, but saw neither Fochtstar, nor the Blakists as its continuation. Focht had no business executing members of the First Circuit, and abused his authority by not reporting Mori as a spy in the first place. It was another use of Comstar as a plot device to make House Davion look good. Focht did not understand the dynamics of the order, but was rather supposed to represent "Rationality." Bizarrely, Mori did not seem to have grasped the interior either, yet still made it to the First Circuit. She could have held Focht in check, but was out to suborn Comstar to the Successor States.

[Minemech]

 To answer your question more appropriately, Comstar is a tension. It genuinely does beneficial work for humanity, but also acts in its own interests as an organization. This is made complex by various factions within it pushing various directions, not all of which are charitable. This tension made Comstar a fascinating actor, when not a misused plot device. The culture that built it up was supported by these tensions, creating an entity that made Inner Sphere politics quite complex and flavored. Those on the end seen less charitable were often formed by the horrors wrought by the Successor States, and sought to end them.

[Drewbacca]

To answer your question more appropriately, Comstar is a tension. It genuinely does beneficial work for humanity, but also acts in its own interests as an organization. This is made complex by various factions within it pushing various directions, not all of which are charitable. This tension made Comstar a fascinating actor, when not a misused plot device. The culture that built it up was supported by these tensions, creating an entity that made Inner Sphere politics quite complex and flavored. Those on the end seen less charitable were often formed by the horrors wrought by the Successor States, and sought to end them.

I agree with this. And I also agree that neither Fochts Comstar or the Blakists really captured that feel. I kind of like post Operation Odysseus Comstar if only beause it shows them in full rebuild mode, and as stupid as it was, the move on Terra at the start of the Jihad was ballsy, as was them basically throwing thier whole lot into the Coallition even though they probably were not all that well trusted at that point.

[Dayton3]

I think it was a major mistake in the BT universe to turn Comstar basically into another Successor State (only more powerful).    I didn't like the creepy "religious order" Comstar either.    I wish they had just kept it as a more or less neutral communications provider.    Some place that people could flee to avoid trouble as so many did.

[Frogfoot]

Loads of cool stuff comes from Comstar doing their thing. Holy Shroud, surprise twist in 3039, Tukayyid, everything WoB, and a mixed grill of shenanigans on the side. Comstar are the guy that spikes the punch bowl on prom night, it might be wrong but it certainly makes things more interesting.

[Major Headcase]

which is why I love the old comstar - a secret blackhat covering their blackhattedness with a construction helmet. I headcanon the generic comstar employee as the Orkin man that twirls his secret mustache when no one is looking.

*whispers* "Hail Hydra..." *winks*
 >:D