Mechwarrior 2nd edition Needler Damage

[LegoMech]

Hi everyone,

I have a question about Needler gun damage in 2nd edition. I know this is not the current edition but I am hoping someone can help me. Buried in the Needler gun description in the main book, it says that needler damage is applied to all locations like a flamer, and that armor reduces damage but is not in turn reduced by needler damage. I get the armor bit, but when I look at the flamer entry it is not really clear on how damage is applied.

For example, if a needler gun does 2d6 damage, does it deal 2d6 damage to all 6 locations on the target and then armor is applied to each hit? Or does it mean the damage rolled is divided up among all 6 locations and then armor applied? If it is the former, then Needlers are ridiculously overpowered, especially the 4d6 Shredder from the companion that actually damages armor. If it is the latter, then I don't see the value of using one since you are less likely to reach the damage thresholds on any body parts.

I am hoping someone can clear this up for me. I ran two long campaigns of this game many years ago but we never noticed this rule so we played needlers like regular ballistics. Thanks!

[massey]

I've never been clear on that either.  I only played it a couple of times, and it never came up.  I just sort of guessed that you'd only apply armor if it covered all locations, but clearly that's a total guess.

[guardiandashi]

after rereading both weapon entries. pg 100 and 101 MechWarrior 2nd edition

yes they are vicious brutal weapons.

ok the flamer sets fire to a hex and all adjacent hexes.
the flamer pistol only affects 1 hex

with the needlers I would say that there are 3 aspects to consider.
1 the weapon attacks all exposed portions of the body at a minimum it is going to hit a location and adjacent locations.  IE if you hit the torso, and the target is in the open yes its going to attack all body locations. if it hits an arm then it would likely hit the arm and body.

2 the armor the character is wearing (if any) will help defend against the needler.
if its the correct type.
IMO ballistic plate will stop it completely, ablative won't do much (its ballistic damage) flack armor applies its reduction as normal.

3 while flack and ballistic plate will reduce the damage the needler does to the target, the armor doesn't take any damage like it normally would.

conclusion using a needler against an unarmored target might almost be a war crime because its so nasty as in they are typically going to effectively get hit multiple times.  while it might not kill them outright it is going to tear them up pretty badly.

[LegoMech]

Thanks for the replies. I think I'll have to come up with some houserules to balance them out. I want them to be a viable choice without being a no-brainer. Any idea how loud they are supposed to be? Maybe stealth or lack of stealth can be a contributing factor as to whether to use them.

[skiltao]

Or does it mean the damage rolled is divided up among all 6 locations and then armor applied?

Possibly you divide it up after comparing the full value to the armor.

In the Warrior Trilogy at least, needler shots go right through cloth, are expected to go through a MechWarrior's cooling vest and incapacitate the guy, and get stopped by a "plastisteel breastplate" or an ornate bronze door. (They mostly hit a single location too instead of spreading out, but I suspect that's because those shots were taken at short range.)

[LegoMech]

Possibly you divide it up after comparing the full value to the armor.

In the Warrior Trilogy at least, needler shots go right through cloth, are expected to go through a MechWarrior's cooling vest and incapacitate the guy, and get stopped by a "plastisteel breastplate" or an ornate bronze door. (They mostly hit a single location too instead of spreading out, but I suspect that's because those shots were taken at short range.)

The trick is that armor varies depending on location. If you hit a character with flak pants and an armor vest but no armor in the head or arms, or a mechwarrior combat suit which has different armor values for the limbs and torsos, how do you decide?

Thanks for the example from the fiction, that helps me a bit. I'm still not sure how I'll wind up implementing them yet.

[Mech Salvager]

Ah, another example of 2nd edition's need for an editor or two more. Don't get me wrong, I do love the system, but things like these crop up. Having read up on needlers in the 2nd edition book, and armor in both 2nd edition and the companion, it does come off as a little confusing. The way I’d rule it, is that the needler does full damage If any part of the body is unarmored actually. This is balanced by that it doesn’t roll for hit location, as it hits the whole body, which means that it can’t do critical hits, nor can it exceed damage thresholds, as it’s not limited to a particular limb. If all parts are armored, I’d go for the spot with the weakest armor for the modifier to the damage.

I don’t know if that makes sense, but it’s my take on the needler.
 

[LegoMech]

Yeah, it's funny because I ran two long campaigns about 20 years ago and had no problems at all, but now that I re-read the rules in prep to play again I come across things I don't remember being an issue. For example, target movement modifiers seem to be based on the target's most recent movement even if it was in the prior turn. Which feels like it could seem a bit odd in play but I guess once I dive into it I'll see if it starts flowing smoothly for me again.

[massey]

Yeah, it's funny because I ran two long campaigns about 20 years ago and had no problems at all, but now that I re-read the rules in prep to play again I come across things I don't remember being an issue. For example, target movement modifiers seem to be based on the target's most recent movement even if it was in the prior turn. Which feels like it could seem a bit odd in play but I guess once I dive into it I'll see if it starts flowing smoothly for me again.

If I recall, that's because in Mechwarrior firing isn't considered simultaneous.  So if they haven't acted yet, it goes off what they did in the previous round.

[LegoMech]

If I recall, that's because in Mechwarrior firing isn't considered simultaneous.  So if they haven't acted yet, it goes off what they did in the previous round.

That's correct. That's also why I think initiative is the most important combat roll in the game, because if you go first you can move to make yourself harder to hit (and maybe take cover) while also attacking before the enemy gets any movement modifiers applied. I think that's okay though. Combat has always been pretty quick, especially if you use the morale rule from the companion so NPCs don't fight to the death. My past campaigns had a nice balance of role-playing and combat so having combat resolve quickly was a plus.

I am working on a one-shot or mini-campaign using 2nd edition so I am getting re-familiar with the rules. Thanks everyone for the help!

[skiltao]

I think I've found the issue (emphasis mine):

in the main book, it says that needler damage is applied to all locations like a flamer, and that armor reduces damage but is not in turn reduced by needler damage.

My copy says "Needlers can penetrate armor, but do not damage armor." Nothing in the needler text nor the flamer text about armor reducing the damage, so I believe those weapons were meant to ignore armor completely. They have no other virtues in that book; worse damage, worse range, and no cheaper than comparable slug-throwing pistols and rifles.

The Companion book does have armor treat needlers like any other ballistic weapon, but it also buffs the new "Shredder" needler up to exactly twice what the old rifle did.

[LegoMech]

I think I've found the issue (emphasis mine):

My copy says "Needlers can penetrate armor, but do not damage armor." Nothing in the needler text nor the flamer text about armor reducing the damage, so I believe those weapons were meant to ignore armor completely. They have no other virtues in that book; worse damage, worse range, and no cheaper than comparable slug-throwing pistols and rifles.

The Companion book does have armor treat needlers like any other ballistic weapon, but it also buffs the new "Shredder" needler up to exactly twice what the old rifle did.

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. I was going through the companion and after reading the Shredder description was like "wait, needler damage works differently?" which made me go back to the first book. So seeing them out of order it never crossed my mind to think they would ignore armor altogether.

[skiltao]

Yeah, I did the same thing at first too.

The first edition stats in TR:3026 look identical; I guess Needler damage has always been low.