Author Topic: Warship Race Redux  (Read 89338 times)

Jester Motley

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #180 on: 08 April 2020, 21:11:07 »
I know I have a ship that is lacking in escape pods. But it lacks a gravdeck and has steerage class quarters for everyone.

But it has a terrible cargo fraction and it is flawed.

I wasn't trying to point fingers.  I was just surprised at the commonality of low numbers of pods/boats across all the fleets.  That, and given how... titanically... the problem of insufficient lifeboats was hammered into the maritime community in our own time frame, I have a hard time accepting that either 'future-modern' maritime wouldn't also have the same hidebound tradition of enough boats for people on board, or that there wouldn't be equally galvanizing emergencies to make the pods/boats a morale effecting issue if there's not enough.

I designed some intentional, and I'm sure several unintentionally bad designs.  And I'm hoping I, personally, and my navy, roleplaying, learn from our mistakes.  But this looks like an across the board thing everyone else, including the DMs, are fine with, and if that's "in universe" no consquence, then my navy is going to learn that lesson too, and have some small tonnage freed up.  (If you look at the first game, I did a 'warship' cruise liner.  I had my reasons, they were bad reasons... but it was fun, and realistic...  The Spruce Goose happened after all.  And the Concord seemed like a good idea...)

Re: Marcus:
1)  One problem was the need for "inspiration" because each faction had major battles detailed and written out, every turn.  My view is that, at times and stretches, there's going to be little conflict, while at other times there's going to be huge amounts of combat.  In the case of lots of combat, just list out battle stats for all but "important" or "notable" battles.  "4x Gladius went up against 3x MrBadGuy designs, with 10m in damage to both sides, and 1 Gladius lost.  The Gladius lost took a freak crit hit"  Is fine for turns where there's multiple fights.  Then, if inspiration hits or there's a reason to detail things, go into a notable, or "example" battle that shows the point.  "FedSuns attempted carrier battles, but lost all such fights due to Kurita hull's not being piercable by light fighters and small craft..."  and give some details.  Mostly, what I want is what happened, and why my fleets won/lost/sucked/awesome... and some light RP for fun.  And again, those are gonna be "heavy" combat turns.

2) answered above.  Mechanics mostly, to make things easier/faster, with fluff and RP for fun or when important info needs to happen.

3) Yes.  :)  The history of man is easily defined in cycles of happenstance.  We build up, wallow in the fruits of our labor, destroy everything, rinse repeat.  The Star League, as in a concentration of power, is pretty inevitable.  And its fragility is also pretty inevitable.  Whether its called the new holy roman empire in space, or the Star League doesn't matter, the pattern will happen.  But... given that, the SL might not start for a 100 years later.  OR it might not start until after mutliple 'succession lord" level wars knock everybody back to the stone ages, and everyone is forced to rely on their neighbors to just survive.  So... AU, embrance it full force, but that doesn't mean we can't use the outline of the OU to make it easier to focus on the bits we want to explore.  Warships and naval conflict in BT.

4) Monthly.  If I don't see a turn resolution post in a month repeatedly, I'm gonna assume its a dying beast and start to focus elsewhere.  Ideally, I'd want every 2 weeks.  1 week to post turn, 1 week for turn resolution to post.  That gives everyone time to work through things. BUT that's rather tight for both GM and People when life will ultimately interfere.  So... monthly as an outside, and every 2 weeks for desired turn rate.


Smegish

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #181 on: 08 April 2020, 21:18:23 »
I did indeed do Fighter armour, thinking that you can't have 'Improved' Ferro-Aluminium without regular Ferro-Aluminium. Again a limitation I was imposing on NPC factions so they weren't all taking IFA on the first turn, because its the strongest option.

Jester: Having 2 GMs to share the load will help with burn out and inspiration. We have ideas for action in the first turn or two - What little there probably be anyway, before having to come up with any major fights. DC vs PoR will still be happening early, though the final result may vary

Feel free to do what you want with them though

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #182 on: 08 April 2020, 23:24:15 »
Only got a tiny bit: I will read and process the last two pages tomorrow morning when I'm awake and thinking... sorta briefly glanced thru the last two pages.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #183 on: 09 April 2020, 04:33:23 »
I did indeed do Fighter armour, thinking that you can't have 'Improved' Ferro-Aluminium without regular Ferro-Aluminium.
But FA did come after IFA.  ???
That's just a name. 
Naval equipment seems to always come first - see PPCs.

RE:  Researching increased accuracy - some weapons have much better ranges, and we ARE using the detailed, advanced aerospace ranges.  If you want an accuracy advantage, mount the big energy weapons and the big NGauss, Barracuda also have some good range bands - ECM will be an effective accuracy advantage if you have it and they dont - and of course there is NC3 waiting out there.
I seem to remember we did discuss changing N-Gauss, because they aren't worth their mass nor their cost for what you get.

Also, what does a vehicle drop chute do again?
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #184 on: 09 April 2020, 06:09:08 »
Vehicle Drop Chutes allow orbital drop of vehicles and mechs. 

NGauss will display a threshold effect out of line with their damage - something like the ‘crit chance on every hit’ that you see with missiles.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #185 on: 09 April 2020, 06:36:14 »
hmm.
Might try that then. No one else has picked it, so it's preventing the "everyone takes it" thingy, and FA armour to me is one of those niche technologies that doesn't provide a lot of benefit.
Oh well, food for thought.

The N-Gauss might have merit, then. I for one prefer some dice rolls to absolute predictability - that I might not even know.

Ok, lucky me, I failed. Have to do stuff again. Anyways, I'll probably switch the research to drop chutes, keep the destroyers alive, and switch the escorts to shuttle bays with some extra machine guns.
I'll keep all the yard upgrades and actually build those ships, as well.
I'll also not change naval doctrine for now. (Just in case I'm held up again)
« Last Edit: 09 April 2020, 18:49:04 by UnLimiTeD »
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Jester Motley

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #186 on: 09 April 2020, 19:20:49 »
I did indeed do Fighter armour, thinking that you can't have 'Improved' Ferro-Aluminium without regular Ferro-Aluminium. Again a limitation I was imposing on NPC factions so they weren't all taking IFA on the first turn, because its the strongest option.

Jester: Having 2 GMs to share the load will help with burn out and inspiration. We have ideas for action in the first turn or two - What little there probably be anyway, before having to come up with any major fights. DC vs PoR will still be happening early, though the final result may vary

Feel free to do what you want with them though

I was just stating my preference and a desire to avoid the pitfalls of the previous game, while preserving everything that was great about it.  Which we're doing well so far.

I took IFA cause it made sense for my designs (But you'll note not all of my designs use it this turn, either, just used it where I think a new tech would have been prioritized), it was one of the first 3 techs open, and it canonically was first.  I can change that if you want, but it does limit choice to only 2 for the first turn of tech in that tree.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #187 on: 09 April 2020, 19:30:54 »
Hairbear has stated he is taking over the Illyrian Palatinate, beginning Turn 2, leaving Turn 1 as filled out by Smegish.

Unlimited, my understanding is you intend to post your Turn 1, but it will be based heavily on what Smegish did?  If so, Ill start crunching on T1, at least the parts that are unaffected by DC decisions.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #188 on: 10 April 2020, 13:00:09 »
Yes, that's basically the idea. Well, and today I forgot to post it for several hours.  ;D
My original escort idea was only 150kt, so I had no trouble adding a few minor pieces to shape things as I saw fit.
Damn, those things are fragile.

I wanted to add a troop carrier ship, but decided that I may as well fluff it as arriving late in the decade - and it's not participating in combat much anyways - so I haven't added it yet in favour of getting things out the door.

Of note, the remaining weight shown seems to have some weird artefact on calculation, likely related to floating commas.
When I add cargo exactly the size of the remaining free mass, I end up with 1 free mass.
« Last Edit: 10 April 2020, 14:57:12 by UnLimiTeD »
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #189 on: 10 April 2020, 16:28:06 »
Unlimited - at your convenience, no rush, could you edit the rest of the original DC turn that you want to use into your own (and drop or change any fluff you like)?  That way we can have each nations turn on a single post, so that its cleaner.  Once thats done, Smegish can clean up his turn post and yours will be the only one.

Thats everyone in - Smegish did a Marian Hegemony based on Truetankers requests, as hes lost internet for the moment secondary to work shutdowns.  With that, he and I are processing.  I intend to see it posted in rather less than a week.

Smegish

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #190 on: 10 April 2020, 17:52:35 »
UnLimited: I see mention of a Dropshuttle bay and a bucketload of Small craft bays, but no mention in the Kutai's listing itself. The spreadsheet usually forgets to add this stuff to the TRO Workup page for reasons that escape us, so need to be added manually.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #191 on: 10 April 2020, 20:10:46 »
Scrapping and Mothballs:

On reflection, and because I was asked, Im thinking about addressing scrapping and mothballing ships.

My inital thought is a ship may be scrapped for 25% of its build cost.  (Ships with damage on them from battle have their scrap value reduced by their repair cost % - such that a 10B vessel with a 5B repair ticket could be scrapped for 1.25B, rather than the usual 2.5B)

Ships normally have a maintenance price equal to 50% of their production cost.  You can cut this, but its going to impact performance and at low levels may result in breakdowns and mutinies.  My thought is that for -5-% of their production cost, ships can be left in mothballs, unavailable -this- turn, but available -next- turn if you want to reactivate (pay maintenance) on them.  It has to cost something, I think, or people will just build huge mothball reserves.

Thoughts?

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #192 on: 10 April 2020, 21:24:06 »
1) I triple checked again in MegaMekLab which I’m using on the Rav-class Corvette it checked out on my end: not sure where it goes wrong. I’ll edit the design in a bit to reflect the comments.

Out of curiosity which program are you guys using? I also have a copy of StratOps so I could break that out if necessary.

2) Regarding combat: should their be some every turn? Hopefully. Honestly it depends on how we want to write this which links into the AU question but the combat should be deserved and not arbitrarily throw around. The PoR isn’t going to suicide their fleet into the Lyrans just because they haven’t fought in a while (as a terrible example).

3) Detail on the combat is up to the GM’s: however much you want to write is fine by me: if you wanted to throw basic combat cards at the players involved and have them write a quick response:

For example: DCMS: The FedSuns have sent one of their patrol fleets across the border: how would you respond?

FedSuns: you indicated that you wanted to send raiding fleets across the border: what would happen if they encountered enemy ships?

And then write up a quick and dirty combat based on those.

IDK just my two cents

4) as for the AU question: definitely going to be an AU but it doesn’t have to be too far AU. For example I would want to make the PoR peacefully integrated into the Draconis Combine rather than forcefully. It might start with fleet exercises, and cultural exchange programs, and then go into talks where we are give autonomy sorts like the Azami but join the DC as a new province. I control the sector as a ‘Warlord’ except it’s a lot less death.

The end result is the same as canon... but different. Do I still expect the Star League? Yes. Do I expect everything to go exactly the same? No

5) As far as turns go: id love to get two turns a month done: even with the quarantine it gives us time to check things, write, and plan: not to mention questions like these. Also gives some time for the GM to write up the final results between turns. Someone mentioned variable turn times which I wouldn’t oppose as time went on and we got more used to this.

6) Salvaging, scrapping, and mothballing: I approve with what you posted Marcus.

Smegish

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #193 on: 10 April 2020, 22:29:45 »
Marcus and I are using the spreadsheet created by CryHavoc and modified for this game, found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xFkTAkgw_gsCQlrcrN9b_vjsjTFge49dsRJT_T3V8Fg/edit?usp=sharing

It may not be perfect, but if we're all using the same ting then at least we'll be consistently wrong :)

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #194 on: 11 April 2020, 05:21:38 »
I usually build ships in MML, then transfer them over to the spreadsheet when I'm somewhat pleased by the results.
Starting, this poses a few issues as we're ahead of the historical curve in armour technology, as well as in the presence of fighters (though I don't know why, besides "because Alsadius did it"),  but the transfer process still takes a multiple of the time, and the output is sometimes lacking.

Regarding the post: I'll transfer stuff today. The Revised Kutai has 24 Small Craft bays per broadside (48 total, with a standard load being 36 fighters, 12 SC), and a 2 Slot Shuttle Hangar.
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #195 on: 11 April 2020, 08:35:47 »
Turn 1 is processed!  Please read over and let us know what you do and dont like about how the turn was written up.  What works, what doesnt, etc.

A peek behind the curtain:  We track the leadership qualities of all powers, and this influences the likelyhood and intensity of conflict.  Once we know there is a conflict, we look at forces available and historic conflicts to know who the target is and what the correlation of forces will likely look like.  Then dice are rolled (3d6, I like bell curves) for each team, modified by maintenance.  We look at published doctrine if any and then try to make the best decisions available to the various commanders, in light of forces, objectives, their capabilities and their best understanding of the enemy capabilities and objectives.

Im already warming up NPC turns for the NPCs that are my responsibility - I get the two biggest, Smegish gets the 4 small ones, and this is probably not fair to him... :)

SELLING SHIPS:
The THN is open to selling off some more of its massive backlog of ships.  They wont be selling Dreadnought or Black Lion Class, but smaller things are up for grabs at probably half-of-new-cost.  If you want anything, message me, well talk.  Purchased ships are treated like new builds, and go on your order of battle like new builds.

The CC is upgrading yards but not laying new hulls.  I anticipate it having slipway space for production of up to 6 ships each of classes 1-4.  Youll have to cover prototyping cost if its a new design, and theres going to have to be some upcharge.. maybe 10% over list, open to discussion.*

*Offer not available to the THN, FSN, or FWLN.  Besides, would you trust the Capellans to give ships if you were the FSN?  :)

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #196 on: 11 April 2020, 12:36:24 »
The warship rules are complicated enough that I can see minor discrepancies creeping into the MML, HMA, or any other spreadsheet (including our own).

I light of this, we have to have a common standard - and the spreadsheet linked on the first page will be that common standard, since its free and fairly user friendly.  For now, that sheet is ‘the right answer’ - not because its necessarily perfect, but because of the need for a common standard.

FWIW, published ships were found to have errors when run through spreadsheets, due to rules changes and errors in being done by hand - so dont feel bad, and if you catch bugs in any of mine, holler.

Their have been quite a few fixes in MegaMekLab around DS/WS/SS since 46.1 (Stable) using 47.5 (Dev) might help. Also if you find issues please open a bug report or PM me.

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UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #197 on: 11 April 2020, 14:34:36 »
Right, I should probably get the newest dev build again.
Though obviously we have our own tech progression, and we still need the spread sheet to calculate the cost.
Turn 1 is processed!  Please read over and let us know what you do and dont like about how the turn was written up.  What works, what doesnt, etc.
Beautiful! That seems like quite the bit of writing for a few border conflicts. An entertaining read.
So, I could theoretically buy ships off the CC? Or rather slipway capacity? How would they get here? ???
I feel bad for the PoR, but this is what the coordinator wants. Probably.
So how will tech progression go from here?
We can pick and choose from the first 3. Does that propagate downwards if we get one? If so, that seems a bit too easy.
Also, seems our budget escalates?
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #198 on: 11 April 2020, 14:50:53 »
Right, I should probably get the newest dev build again.
Though obviously we have our own tech progression, and we still need the spread sheet to calculate the cost.Beautiful! That seems like quite the bit of writing for a few border conflicts. An entertaining read.
So, I could theoretically buy ships off the CC? Or rather slipway capacity? How would they get here? ???
I feel bad for the PoR, but this is what the coordinator wants. Probably.
So how will tech progression go from here?
We can pick and choose from the first 3. Does that propagate downwards if we get one? If so, that seems a bit too easy.
Also, seems our budget escalates?

If you buy 1 tech a turn, and spread evenly, you'll end up kinda in a historical ballpark.  Players may choose faster or slower, and given how few game changers there are, Im not sure there is one right answer.

The CC is willing to sell ships (its a thing.  The Brit shipbuilders sold big bloody warships to other powers).  As for how they would get there?  I mean, space is big and empty and these things have unsupported endurance in months or years?  If you want to move through Hegemony space, just... ask nicely?

Budgets climb over time.  People are still spreading out, populations climbing, tech advancing.  Colonies springing up.

Smegish

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #199 on: 11 April 2020, 18:36:19 »
Unlimited: Tybalt in CC is just over 1 jump away from Mallory's World in your territory, not hard to find an empty system between to travel through.

And I'm glad you enjoyed the read.

Jester Motley

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #200 on: 11 April 2020, 21:40:32 »
Davion turn posted.  I, er, may have already had it mostly ready.

Q-  Recharge/defense/etc space stations.  I noted in my turn 2 post that I really don't want to micromanage where they go.  That said, I don't want to have multiple ship's worth of maintenance payments a turn, and get nothing out of them.  I don't want to "game things" or "min/max" these.  So I was thinking, if I had 10% of my # of planets worth of recharge stations, then I could have some sort of "roads" bonus for ship movement... but then I realized I'd have to count planets.  Yeah, no thanks.  Then I thought, well, what if X number of stations gives you some speed boost to your fleets in defense.  Then realized "50 stations gives you 5%" is to threshold and min/maxable.  And then there's defense stations...  If I were microing, I'd have several in some places, fewer or none in others.  Shipyard systems might get more than a regional capital, but not as many as say, New Avalon.... but again, don't want to micro this game.

 So, how will (have already) recharge and defense stations play into the turn/combat mechanics?  Or should I stop spending money on them as they're a waste?

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #201 on: 11 April 2020, 21:52:41 »
Recharge Stations go to fleet mobility and readiness, reflecting both decreased recharge times and ease of resupply - keeping the vessel ‘topped off’

They also go to economics.  Having recharge stations encourages trade, which has a small impact on economic growth over time.  Economic growth will also be tied to the quality and focus of your leadership - budgets will fluctuate, and will underlying growth curves, with leadership, etc.

That said, like with most things, its diminishing returns.  The first 10 are worth more than the next, and so on.  Once your hanging them at zenith and nadir over every system, your probably at the level where the next few get you little to nothing more.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #202 on: 12 April 2020, 06:28:27 »
It just occurred to me that technology has no real maintenance cost, all the while increasing budgets cause the cost of research to rise over time.
... also that vehicle drop chutes are kind of a pointless investment if I already build a dedicated invasion ship. :facepalm:
I originally read that I could research 1 tech total per turn. The clarity of what you actually get might make this a bit too easy, what with the instant results. I feel like there's really no option but to focus heavy on research early.

Edit: I have consolidated the Draconis Combine Turn for 2350-2360, and added the additional fluff that was still missing.
« Last Edit: 12 April 2020, 15:03:07 by UnLimiTeD »
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
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marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #203 on: 12 April 2020, 15:41:52 »
It just occurred to me that technology has no real maintenance cost, all the while increasing budgets cause the cost of research to rise over time.
... also that vehicle drop chutes are kind of a pointless investment if I already build a dedicated invasion ship. :facepalm:
I originally read that I could research 1 tech total per turn. The clarity of what you actually get might make this a bit too easy, what with the instant results. I feel like there's really no option but to focus heavy on research early.

Edit: I have consolidated the Draconis Combine Turn for 2350-2360, and added the additional fluff that was still missing.

Focusing heavily on research is certainly an option.  Those who do so early get the cool toys sooner, but pay more for it - remember the cost break after a thing has been in the wild a while.

Also, remember that the most common naval technologies (missiles, NACs, and NLs) are all open availability.

Im not saying going tech heavy is a bad choice - but I dont see it as the only choice.  Ive run three powers so far as NPCs... when I had the Lyrans, they were gonna be 3 techs a turn forever.  The THN is one per turn.  The CC is none until they get cheap, and the  grab whatever looks cheap and worthwhile.

UnLimiTeD

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #204 on: 12 April 2020, 16:03:31 »
I have a feeling that fleets with bracketed N-Gauss and LF-Batteries, protected my Lamellor-Armour and swarms of clanspec fighters, around 2600 might actually have quite the advantage.
Thing is - the usual counter-strategy would be to attack people who forego ships to concentrate on research, to hit them before they can turn that tech advantage into firepower - but while we control the naval spending, we do not control when and who to attack. Nor is there espionage.
Might make more sense to have research last for an extra turn. Well, ymmv.
We'll see. I suppose.  :)
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #205 on: 12 April 2020, 17:36:44 »
Is the loss already included in my budget or do I have to account for it?

AKA My budget is listed as $75 billion: should it be 73 (+3 for lass turns) or is 75 correct?

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #206 on: 12 April 2020, 18:08:50 »
Is the loss already included in my budget or do I have to account for it?

AKA My budget is listed as $75 billion: should it be 73 (+3 for lass turns) or is 75 correct?

Listed budget changes are already reflected in your budget.

Youll have to drop combat losses when you process your turn, and if you have damaged ships, repair or scrap or what you will.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #207 on: 12 April 2020, 18:18:24 »
Cool: trying to plan a war budget now.

marcussmythe

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #208 on: 12 April 2020, 18:38:54 »
Addendum - I believe that Smeigsh has taken your losses into account on the spreadsheet - it shows you with 2 Ravs, etc.

You might see if anyone wants to sell you any ships at firesale prices - the THN has so many hulls that maintenance is eating its budget pretty nearly entirely.  CC has yards its not using - theyd probably charge full price and a small mark-up, but might build things you want.  Other powers might be willing to build or sell, as well.  Could be a quick and easy way to bulk up your fleets for the coming turns.

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Warship Race Redux
« Reply #209 on: 12 April 2020, 19:20:20 »
Yeah I was considering it: that and buying some Lyran heavy fighters. Sarna says the Typhoon is being phased out completely so I figured they might have stockpiles they'd probably sell.

As far as Warships from the TH, I'd be more likely to buy a pair of Lola's and a couple Corvette's. I'd have to check my budget and get back to people.

 

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