Author Topic: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired  (Read 53662 times)

mitchberthelson

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #120 on: 26 January 2017, 20:08:13 »
I'm going to hazard a guess that the Marauder is meant to have the quirk due to the highly sloped armor rather than volume.  Look at the Dragon... it has the quirk and high angles of deflection has to be the explanation.

Additionally, the MAD's entry in TRO 3025 specifically states that it is difficult to hit because of its profile. Pg. 98 of that book says "The 'Mech's unusual profile makes it a harder target than other manlike 'Mechs."

It's not just skinny, it's weird. Its movement patterns have also been described as alien and unsettling in other TRO entries, which is where the Distracting Quirk comes in.


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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #121 on: 26 January 2017, 20:14:29 »
I can't reconcile the numbers of PSR's in the example on p.56 and in the description of Multiple Domino Effects on p.55. Ugh... Can someone explain?

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Re: BattleMech Manual
« Reply #122 on: 26 January 2017, 20:18:49 »
QUIRKS:

Unlike most products, we're looking for more than just error reports here.  We're actively soliciting feedback on the quirk list.

If you want to suggest that a mech should or should not have a quirk, please give your reasoning (be succinct, please).  The best support would be based on TRO fluff, but art and other canon sources are good too.  Please provide any page numbers with your arguments, where applicable.

Note that this list is only meant to contain quirks for mechs that did not previously have them, rather than being a list of every mech ever made.  Mechs that had quirks in their TROs (so TRO Protoypes and later) are not included here.

Thanks!

QUIRK FEEDBACK:

Annihilator-In this 'Mech's entries in TRO 3050 and the Wolf's Dragoons Sourcebook, its targeting system is listed as "Wasat Aggressor Type 5." This is the exact same targeting system as the Orion, which has the Anti-Air Targeting Quirk. That Quirk should be added to this 'Mech's listing.

Axman Should have Ammunition Feed Problem: AC/20, as TRO 3050 notes that its Autocannon had jamming problems. These were so prevalent that they led to the development of the AXM-2N.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #123 on: 26 January 2017, 20:30:10 »
Ammunition Feed Problem is... slightly more problematic than jamming, I think.  I'm still appalled at how Centurions and Enforcers function let alone excel with that quirk, but it can be literally catastrophic at any given moment so I'd limit how it's apportioned.  Or change it, but I don't think that's on the table.
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #124 on: 26 January 2017, 20:33:01 »
For the Axman that would be more of a variant quirk, something that list tries to avoid to make it general to each model.

Example, the Mongoose. Most of the Mongoose variants have a medium laser in the CT, hence its quirk. The 66b Royal variant though has an ER Large Laser in the CT. Some of the other 2750 designs also list having ammo problems that get fixed later, but those still get the negative ammo quirks anyway.

I do hope they work on a list that includes quirks for variants as well. The Victor is a good example having accurate weapon for the AC/20. Does this translate to variants using the Long Tom Cannon or Gauss Rifle? Or perhaps a variant with HAG, LB, Ultra??

NeonKnight

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #125 on: 26 January 2017, 20:52:11 »
Just noticed something...The 'highlighted' chapter info on the right side of the pages (i.e Combat, Damage, etc) flows from Bottom to Top, where in every other current rule book flows top to bottom.
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CampaignAnon

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #126 on: 26 January 2017, 21:07:25 »
I do hope they work on a list that includes quirks for variants as well. The Victor is a good example having accurate weapon for the AC/20. Does this translate to variants using the Long Tom Cannon or Gauss Rifle? Or perhaps a variant with HAG, LB, Ultra??
That's an absurd amount of work though. I mean, that's literally thousands of units. Sure I'd be willing to work on it, but such a list is absolutely out of the scope of the BattleMech Manual.

pheonixstorm

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #127 on: 26 January 2017, 21:16:29 »
Yes, which in another post I suggested a downloadable PDF separate from the BMM.

And you are not the only one who would want to work on the list. I think Xotl already created an unofficial quirk list that included vees and maybe asf. Nowhere near complete but better than nothing O0.

Xotl

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #128 on: 26 January 2017, 21:19:13 »
In any case, it is regretfully not a part of this project.  Perhaps another time.
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Scotty

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #129 on: 26 January 2017, 21:29:25 »
May I make a suggestion on that front?  Put quirks in the "Notes" section on the MUL.
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mitchberthelson

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #130 on: 26 January 2017, 22:24:36 »
For the Axman that would be more of a variant quirk, something that list tries to avoid to make it general to each model.

Example, the Mongoose. Most of the Mongoose variants have a medium laser in the CT, hence its quirk. The 66b Royal variant though has an ER Large Laser in the CT. Some of the other 2750 designs also list having ammo problems that get fixed later, but those still get the negative ammo quirks anyway.

I do hope they work on a list that includes quirks for variants as well. The Victor is a good example having accurate weapon for the AC/20. Does this translate to variants using the Long Tom Cannon or Gauss Rifle? Or perhaps a variant with HAG, LB, Ultra??

Little problem with the discussion regarding the AXM.....its only quirk right now is Accurate Weapon AC/20 and many variants don't even have one. That's why I mentioned the feed problem....because the authors had already gotten that specific. I'd actually be in favor of the quirks being entirely changed for that machine.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #131 on: 27 January 2017, 09:28:45 »
I noticed the section on FIRE and Accidental Fires in particular does not cover starting a fire through actual combat. (i.e. original rules page 43 Tactical Operations).

Is that an oversight or intentional?
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #132 on: 27 January 2017, 10:48:23 »
Perhaps the quirks could list something less specific for weapons quirks.
CT Energy Weapon.
LA Ballistic Weapon.
With a note that it applies to the highest tonnage weapon meeting the requirements?
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mitchberthelson

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #133 on: 27 January 2017, 11:54:39 »
MORE QUIRK FEEDBACK:

Emperor-The original EMP-1A version in TRO-Primitives Vol 4 has the Command Battlemech Quirk. Later versions of this 'Mech appear in a command role frequently in the other works (Sun Tzu Liao in Double Blind, Warner Doles through most of his appearances, the unnamed enemy commander in "An Ill-Made House," the Mercury Elite variant used by high ranking officers of Marik's Dark Shadows, etc.). As a result, this should be a Quirk present in all variants.

cavingjan

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #134 on: 27 January 2017, 12:48:56 »
May I make a suggestion on that front?  Put quirks in the "Notes" section on the MUL.

No. But adding a field for quirks is more appropriate. If a complete list is done, it will most likely be done on the MUL.

mitchberthelson

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #135 on: 27 January 2017, 14:29:12 »
QUIRK FEEDBACK:

The Rampage is missing from this list and I don't recall seeing its Quirks anywhere. I'd suggest Bad Reputation, though I'm not sure what else.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #136 on: 27 January 2017, 15:30:30 »
QUIRK FEEDBACK:

The Rampage is missing from this list and I don't recall seeing its Quirks anywhere. I'd suggest Bad Reputation, though I'm not sure what else.
Crud you're right, I forgot the Rampage and the other Wolverine mechs. Thanks!

mitchberthelson

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #137 on: 27 January 2017, 18:42:53 »
QUIRK FEEDBACK:

Keep finding more when I think I'm done....

Hornet HNT-181 TRO entry explicitly specifies that it has the Low/Narrow Profile Quirk. Since the 181 is a straight upgrade and a change in size is not mentioned, this should be applied to all variants of this 'Mech....in keeping with its role as a light urban fighter like the UM.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #138 on: 27 January 2017, 19:38:10 »
Quirk Feedback:

The Helios doesn't have the No Torso Twist quirk.  I'm thinking maybe it should, based on the mini:


The thing is literally a very thick, solid chunk of metal.  It "clearly" has all the ability to torso twist that a pear does.

However, I said it "maybe" deserves the quirk.  The official TRO art that inspired the thick mini might be interpreted in a different way than the mini's sculptor did:


In this image, those accordion cleats might actually not be coverings for the hips as apparently the case in the mini, but coverings for a swivel/pivot articulation that would allow for a torso twist. 

So, since the entry currently omits the quirk, I'm not sure there's a slam dunk case for the quirk to be added just on basis of how the mini looks, but perhaps it's worth another mulling over just to be sure.

Nicolai_Malthus

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #139 on: 28 January 2017, 06:48:47 »
Well, I've gone through the whole of the Manual, and I've gotta say I'm very impressed with how it's been put together! I feel I need to say this, because its praise is well deserved. I especially like how the Movement Modes section was put together, with putting TN modifiers and Heat underneath each mode. The way the book has been edited makes it really accessible and easy for the reader to find the relevant rules.

Final piece of errata I found is on page 97, under Rapid Fire, final paragraph.

"This is determined by the attack’s to-hit roll, which is made even if the attack would automatically hit. When firing two or three shots, a jam occurs on an attack roll of 2. If firing four to five shots, a jam occurs on an attack roll of 3 or less. If firing four to five shots, a jam occurs on a to-hit roll of 3 or less. If firing six to seven shots, a jam occurs on a to-hit roll of 4 or less, and so on. If the weapon jams, it is useless for the rest of the game (see Rotary Autocannon, p. 98, for the exception); the shots are still fired, however, and can still hit the target as normal."

Mainly, the fromulations just need to be cleaned up a bit, so that "to-hit roll" replaces "attack roll", and the repeated sentence stricken. Suggestion:

"This is determined by the attack’s to-hit roll, which is made even if the attack would automatically hit. When firing two or three shots, a jam occurs on a to-hit roll of 2. If firing four to five shots, a jam occurs on a to-hit roll of 3 or less. If firing six to seven shots, a jam occurs on a to-hit roll of 4 or less, and so on. If the weapon jams, it is useless for the rest of the game (see Rotary Autocannon, p. 98, for the exception); the shots are still fired, however, and can still hit the target as normal."
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LimaZulu

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #140 on: 28 January 2017, 10:09:21 »
I wonder what is the point of Reinforced legs on Helepolis and Hollanders - none of the known variants has jump-jet thus cannot perform DFA attack.

Awesome - Battlefists. Should probably be like Battlefist (LA)

Blue flame and White flame should probably benefit of Directional torso mounts at least for some weapons.

Still not sure what Extended torso twist should mean for Tarantula: is it 1 hexside twist ability (from 0 to 1) or it does mean that particular quad is able to twist torso and with a quirk it's 2 hexsides (from 1 to 2)?

What should mean Poor cooling jackets on Goliath's MGs? MGs do not generate any heat (unless rapid fire rule, which one I believe is not included in BM manual) to add extra point to, does it mean that with this quirks they now generate 1 heat each?

Directional torso mounts on LRM20s on Grand Crusader. How is it even possible?

But my main concern is Nightstar. According to the qiurks cost in BM manual, Nightstar NSR-9J has Quirks for 17 points. Strategic Operations books states "it is strongly recommended that if a player
chooses a positive quirk for a design, he or she should give
it negative quirks of equal or greater value as well". I know, more that half of mechs in BM manual are not balanced according to this recommendation, but Nightstar is just something beyond any reason.
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #141 on: 28 January 2017, 11:32:25 »
Directional Turret Mount on the Grand Crusader comes from its original, Unseen, art.  It in fact was the birthplace for the new quirk.

Reinforced legs on non-jumpers was for the idea that the mech is weird and probably has that sort of reinforcement despite not being designed for it.  Same idea with static ammo feed problem for a mech with only one ton of ammo: the idea is the chassis has an innate problem/advantage even if the base design will never show that.

We'll make sure to clear up some of those other oddities (and perhpas rebalance the Nighstar :) )
« Last Edit: 28 January 2017, 12:52:12 by Xotl »
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #142 on: 28 January 2017, 12:34:43 »
Where are you getting 17 points for the Nightstar's quirks? It's 11 points for the Accurate Weapons (6 for the Gauss, 2 for the ERPPC, 2 for the MPLs total, and 1 for the Small Laser), 2 for Command Mech, and 2 for Improved Communications. That's 15, not 17 :D Unfortunately however, all of these quirks are backed up by the fluff, with very little in the way of fluff to give it negatives, except Difficult to Maintain, possibly.

As for the Tarantula, it was my intent in giving it the quirk that the mech gain the ability to turn 1 hex-side, but making it a hyper unique quad that can torso twist on its own is cool too.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #143 on: 28 January 2017, 13:41:09 »
BattleMech Quirk Table, p. 91, Crusader...
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #144 on: 28 January 2017, 15:46:33 »
6 for the Gauss, 2 for the ERPPC, 2 for the MPLs total, and 1 for the Small Laser)
4 for MPLs. MPL makes 6 damage, 1 quirk points for every 5 damage makes it 2 points worth each.
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #145 on: 28 January 2017, 16:42:27 »
4 for MPLs. MPL makes 6 damage, 1 quirk points for every 5 damage makes it 2 points worth each.
Either way, the fluff still talks about the inherent accuracy in the Nightstar, and giving it 17 or even 10 points in negatives is excessive, I think. Even a swap to Improved Targeting at all three range bands would end up being 12, rather than 13 points.

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #146 on: 28 January 2017, 21:14:04 »
onder what is the point of Reinforced legs on Helepolis and Hollanders - none of the known variants has jump-jet thus cannot perform DFA attack.

Awesome - Battlefists. Should probably be like Battlefist (LA)

Blue flame and White flame should probably benefit of Directional torso mounts at least for some weapons.

Still not sure what Extended torso twist should mean for Tarantula: is it 1 hexside twist ability (from 0 to 1) or it does mean that particular quad is able to twist torso and with a quirk it's 2 hexsides (from 1 to 2)?

What should mean Poor cooling jackets on Goliath's MGs? MGs do not generate any heat (unless rapid fire rule, which one I believe is not included in BM manual) to add extra point to, does it mean that with this quirks they now generate 1 heat each?

Directional torso mounts on LRM20s on Grand Crusader. How is it even possible?

But my main concern is Nightstar. According to the qiurks cost in BM manual, Nightstar NSR-9J has Quirks for 17 points. Strategic Operations books states "it is strongly recommended that if a player
chooses a positive quirk for a design, he or she should give
it negative quirks of equal or greater value as well". I know, more that half of mechs in BM manual are not balanced according to this recommendation, but Nightstar is just something beyond any reason.

On a phone, so having trouble snipping the quote, but I agree that the SO rule makes no sense. For example, any Heavy/Assault 'Mech with Anti-Air Targeting completely upends that calculation.....even not taking later publications into account.

My friends and I balance by saying that the number of net positive quirk points in each entire force must be equal on both sides, not counting those pos/neg quirks that have no effect on combat.

« Last Edit: 28 January 2017, 21:22:29 by mitchberthelson »

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #147 on: 28 January 2017, 23:41:37 »
As for the Tarantula, it was my intent in giving it the quirk that the mech gain the ability to turn 1 hex-side, but making it a hyper unique quad that can torso twist on its own is cool too.

Honestly, looking at the artwork *and* the Mini? I like the idea of the Tarantula having the ability to twist 2 hexes, and thus being able to fire in any direction. It just has that feel to it. (Seriously, it should work more like a tripod than a quad for movement too... but that's another story...)

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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #148 on: 28 January 2017, 23:57:54 »
I honestly kinda wish that there was room for a quirk that let a mech do a full 360 turret rotation. Though I don't think there's a good way to balance it.
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Re: BattleMech Manual Beta: Feedback desired
« Reply #149 on: 29 January 2017, 05:34:24 »
Suggestion: The Vulture should have the Narrow/Low-Profile quirk. The fluff text from p. 130, TRO:3050 Upgrade explicitly states: “…bird-legged stand and narrow, angular torso…”. Furthermore, it is quite obvious from the artwork that the Vulture is, in fact, a very slender mech! The Omnimech Image Gallery on the Battletech website has some interesting renders of various versions of the mech, with the C variant especially showing the slim torso: http://d15yciz5bluc83.cloudfront.net/wp-content/gallery/omni-images/VultureCRear.png?x64

To make up for the Narrow/Low-Profile quirk, I suggest deleting the Improved Targeting (Medium) quirk. Nowhere in the fluff from TRO: 3050 Upgrade does it suggest that the Vulture is an exceptional medium-range fighter. (Most of the configurations are actually suited to more long-range engagements).

 

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